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CelestialBarbarian
09-07-2008, 07:37 PM
A potential new player wants to have a PC with the saint template. I looked over the template, having never seen it in use, and it seems to me (as the text on 29 of the Book of Ex-Salted Deeds even indicates) that the saint template has an insufficiently high level adjustment at +2. I look particularly at the fast healing 10, fire resistance 10, and immunity to acid, cold, electricity and petrification. Since the character will be a cleric, the Wisdom bonus as an insight bonus to AC would provide a great deal of benefit too. The DR 10/evil isn't bad either. It also grants a +2 bonus to Con and Wisdom, and +4 to Charisma I'm thinking at first blush that especially with all the immunities, it might deserve a level adjustment of +4.

So what do you think? Should the saint have a higher LA? If so, why, and how much higher? Thanks! :)

nijineko
09-07-2008, 08:07 PM
i allow all official wotc materials to be used in my games with two exceptions. anything from the book of exalted deeds, and anything from the book of vile darkness is completely disallowed.

having said that, i suggest you look up the savage species book. it has rules for judging how much level adjustment to assign a custom monster. these rules should also apply nicely for judging how much level adjustment should be applied to that class. for example, an energy resistance is worth +1 or +2 all by itself. immunities are worth more. stat bonus to ac is worth some more. so is damage reduction. add all that together, and you definitely get more than +2. use the rules from savage species and you will get a fair level adjustment.

ignimbrite
09-07-2008, 08:54 PM
yeah I had someone play a monk with vow of poverty and saint (or was it risen martyr? or both?) at any rate it was silly powerful.
The one thing I will say reading up on sainthood in Chapter 2 of BoED is that they need to 3 exalted feats and have performed an act of extraordinary sacrifice. If you are leery about it then perhaps you could make the act almost unobtainable.

DMMike
09-07-2008, 08:57 PM
Hmm. I thought the saint template just granted 3 miracles in a PC's lifetime.

CelestialBarbarian
09-07-2008, 09:09 PM
i allow all official wotc materials to be used in my games with two exceptions. anything from the book of exalted deeds, and anything from the book of vile darkness is completely disallowed.

having said that, i suggest you look up the savage species book. it has rules for judging how much level adjustment to assign a custom monster. these rules should also apply nicely for judging how much level adjustment should be applied to that class. for example, an energy resistance is worth +1 or +2 all by itself. immunities are worth more. stat bonus to ac is worth some more. so is damage reduction. add all that together, and you definitely get more than +2. use the rules from savage species and you will get a fair level adjustment.

Thanks! I have Savage Species but hadn't really noticed the section on trying to determine level adjustment. I can't find all the abilities, but:

1. Unbalanced ability score bonuses: +1
2. Fire resistance 10: +1 (or at least +1/2)
3. DR 10/evil: +2

Edit:
4. Fast healing 10: +4

So that's already +8 (or +7.5) without even considering the immunities.

nijineko
09-07-2008, 09:17 PM
some of the abilites are in the easy section, some in the intermediate section, and the rest are in the difficult section. so you have to search through several chapters worth of material to find them all. ^^ and unfortunately there is no master list anywhere... that would have been a great web enhancement.

CelestialBarbarian
09-07-2008, 09:33 PM
some of the abilites are in the easy section, some in the intermediate section, and the rest are in the difficult section. so you have to search through several chapters worth of material to find them all. ^^ and unfortunately there is no master list anywhere... that would have been a great web enhancement.


I did search through all three sections and didn't find energy immunities. :(

nijineko
09-07-2008, 09:48 PM
page 14. =D

page 108, as continued from 107, has some mention, too.

CelestialBarbarian
09-07-2008, 10:22 PM
page 14. =D

page 108, as continued from 107, has some mention, too.

Maybe I'm going blind, but I don't see anything about energy immunity on either page. :(

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
09-08-2008, 01:13 AM
My vote would be to let him play it. Cant go wrong with motivated players with good character themes.

"There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the dark places of the world/s." -Gandalf

Thoth-Amon

gdmcbride
09-08-2008, 01:36 AM
I find it ironic that saints are immune to acid, considering an actual saint of the Catholic church was martyred by acid.

Saint Maximilian Kolbe (http://saints.sqpn.com/saintm01.htm)

Gary

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
09-08-2008, 01:50 AM
I find it ironic that saints are immune to acid, considering an actual saint of the Catholic church was martyred by acid.

Saint Maximilian Kolbe (http://saints.sqpn.com/saintm01.htm)

Gary
When i come across things in the rules that make absolutely no sense, like the above example: "I find it ironic that saints are immune to acid...," i either rule it out completely, or give the character another immunity to take its place. Yep, i wouldnt allow that immunity w/o a plausible reason for it makes absolutely no sense.

Thoth-Amon

tesral
09-08-2008, 02:40 AM
The two most broken books in the game, Exalted Deeds and Vile Darkness.

Motivated player and all, but I wouldn't allow it as written. The level adjustment is too steep if corrected and not nearly enough if not corrected.

Might I suggest that the templet be rewritten as a prestige class. 10 level, toss vow of poverty s a prerequisite for the class, give him the listed abilities gradually. I would cut back to one element as eventually being immune to (choose one) Make it something to work towards.

CelestialBarbarian
09-08-2008, 05:04 AM
The two most broken books in the game, Exalted Deeds and Vile Darkness.

Motivated player and all, but I wouldn't allow it as written. The level adjustment is too steep if corrected and not nearly enough if not corrected.

Might I suggest that the templet be rewritten as a prestige class. 10 level, toss vow of poverty s a prerequisite for the class, give him the listed abilities gradually. I would cut back to one element as eventually being immune to (choose one) Make it something to work towards.

If we sort of lop off the fractions, rounding the LA for fast healing down to +3 instead of up to +4 for the jump from fast healing 9 to fast healing 10, and round the LA for fire resistance to +0, we're still at +7. But what about the immunities? I still can't find them in Savage Species (I checked page 14 again but if that has it, I'm still missing it), but let's see: if I ignore the immunity to petrification, that leaves three energy immunities: acid, cold and electricity. If every 10 of resistance for two types equals LA +1, an immunity by itself is clearly a +1 (at least). So that would be another +3 for a total LA of +10. Yes, tesral, I doubt anyone would bother to play it at LA +7, much less +10 or more.

Savages Species does say that some abilities lose power as the character rises in level, so I could drop the overall LA a bit, but at what LA would a player even consent to play it? I've twice played characters that would eventually have gotten LA above +4,a red dragon hatchling starting at 1 HD and an astral deva starting around 5 HD, but never got the dragon to even LA +1 or the astral deva past LA +1. I have played half-celestials with LA +4, and found that at 1st level (ECL 5) the template isn't worth the LA, but that after about 3rd to 5th the template starts to pay off. The party in the campaign I DM has two half-celestials, each 17th level (ECL 21), and the templates still seem quite worthwhile at that level. Maybe I could adjust the LA to +4 or +5, making it cost more than now but still worth playing.

The new character would be 21st too, so the sacrifice component of the template loses its bite unless I impose it prospectively--that is, if I don't let him start as a saint, but make him do the sacrifice during the actual course of the game--unless I somehow make his character weaker for it, like sacrificing half his starting equipment value or taking some sort of big drop in an ability score, like maybe Constitution that would still allow him to function as a cleric but would give him a perpetual weakness.

I don't really see Vow of Poverty as making sense for a cleric of Thór, and in any case, the Vow grants all sorts of benefits--indeed he already asked if he would take it--so it's not exactly the sort of sacrifice that I think would also qualify for sainthood (in the game) as it doubles up the benefit for being poor. I mean it would weaken him for combat (he's going to be a warpriest), not even allowing him to have a warhammer, much less a great hammer like the other two Thor-worshiping characters in the group, and while in a mechanical sense that could be said to help balance the benefits of being a saint, on the one hand, it's another argument against allowing Vow of Poverty for this particular cleric. (The party's half-celestial monk has the Vow of Poverty, which has proved already a bit of an inconvenience for him; he just can't compete with the level of weaponry and gear that the rest of the part possesses.)

nijineko
09-08-2008, 08:29 PM
page 14, the abilities table on the top left. 5th entry: special qualities.

page 108, inside the first paragraph that starts on that page, top left.

CelestialBarbarian
09-08-2008, 09:24 PM
page 14, the abilities table on the top left. 5th entry: special qualities.

page 108, inside the first paragraph that starts on that page, top left.

Thanks for being more specific. The immunities of the kuo-toa to which the first table on p. 14 refer are immunities to poison and petrification, not to energy. I see the word "immunities" on page 108, but it refers to the elf's immunities to sleep and charm spells, and in any case doesn't say much about adding to the level adjustment. Thanks anyway though. :)

nijineko
09-08-2008, 10:07 PM
that's what you get from a keyword search. ^^ i would say +1, or +2... but then you also need to compare it to other classes and monsters of the same level and see how it stacks up... as described in the final acid test. =D which will probably bring down the ecl a bit.

CelestialBarbarian
09-08-2008, 10:15 PM
that's what you get from a keyword search. ^^ i would say +1, or +2... but then you also need to compare it to other classes and monsters of the same level and see how it stacks up... as described in the final acid test. =D which will probably bring down the ecl a bit.

I ran it by my current players and they opposed it vigorously as is, so I'm going to skip using it.

nijineko
09-10-2008, 09:10 PM
voted down by the players. ^^ now how often do you see that. good group. pat pat.

CelestialBarbarian
09-11-2008, 08:28 PM
voted down by the players. ^^ now how often do you see that. good group. pat pat.

The prospective new player still wants to be able to work toward it. I've been too busy/tired to respond to him yet. It seems like new players always show up just when I'm busiest with work. :eek:

nijineko
09-14-2008, 03:50 PM
they never do what you expect... or want. even out of game. ^^

CelestialBarbarian
09-14-2008, 07:53 PM
they never do what you expect... or want. even out of game. ^^

Some don't, but some do. The current lead of the group got off to a good start in his emails with me. I wrote back to the guy who wanted to play the saint and told him that with starting a second job I don't have the time to discuss all the problems with the saint but that it just has too many for me to use now. I haven't heard back, so I don't know if he got angry and decided not to join, or has just been too busy himself.

nijineko
09-14-2008, 08:02 PM
best of luck. =D

CelestialBarbarian
09-14-2008, 08:07 PM
best of luck. =D


Thanks! We've had four people express some interest in the campaign, so perhaps we'll pick up a player or two. :)