PDA

View Full Version : Persistent Spell and Divine Metamagic



CelestialBarbarian
09-06-2008, 12:48 AM
A prospective new player asked me if I'd allow the combination of Persistent Spell and Divine Metamagic, which some DMs disallow. While I suspect that people use it all the time, I've never run across it either as a DM or as a player, and I was wondering what people think about it. Thanks. :)

rabkala
09-06-2008, 01:13 AM
Well, I have seen it used a few times. It is good, but far from overpowered as long as you remember to watch things. They must take the divine metamagic feat as well as the metamagic feat. Spells must also be watched to make sure range is personal (only!). I would suggest looking it up on the WoTC optimization boards for common misuses and abuses before allowing it. It was seriously nerfed in 3.5 especially if you remember the errata.

aboyd
09-06-2008, 06:47 AM
The persistent spell with divine metamagic will allow a cleric to persist a fairly powerful spell (one that is usually out of reach due to the level adjustment). Here is what one person wrote:


Starting at lvl 7, I can metamagic my divine power to last all day, loosing 7 turn attempts. This will give me STR of 18+6=24 (+7), BAB 7 = Full attack +14/+9 and damage 1d8+7 (heavy mace).

Essentially, that's a powerful and possibly unexpected use (I mean that I think the authors didn't see that combination coming). However, the cleric had to burn a few feats to become what is essentially a decent fighter. So it's a trade-off, although one that plays in the cleric's favor IMHO. I'd allow it only because most players don't really want to play the cleric, so incentives like this help to make things more inviting for those who might have had "healer" down as their last choice.

Someone playing a straight fighter might be a bit pissed, though. They might ask, "where are all my free spells, then?" I have a lot of extra fighter-only feats that I took from the Critical Feats PDF and a few other PDFs I bought online, so that helps the fighter types to feel better.

ignimbrite
09-06-2008, 12:17 PM
Beware of really broken combinations. I had a cleric use divine might and divine favour (I think he had an extended spell up as well). It was pretty silly the amount of damage he was dishing out. But he did have to sacrifice quite a few feats to do it: extra turning, divine metamagic, extend spell and persistent spell.

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
09-06-2008, 12:30 PM
A prospective new player asked me if I'd allow the combination of Persistent Spell and Divine Metamagic, which some DMs disallow. While I suspect that people use it all the time, I've never run across it either as a DM or as a player, and I was wondering what people think about it. Thanks. :)
I'd allow it, no question. About the only spell/ability i would never allow in all my 30 years of playing is the know alignment spell or anything that would allow your character to know alignment of another.

Thoth-Amon

nijineko
09-06-2008, 06:38 PM
read over the mechanic, double check the character sheet for accuracy and correctness, then sure, allow it. and then make sure to find (or make) some very damage resistant undead pop up in at least one of their encounters... enough to make them regret the loss of turning attempts. ;D but only for one encounter. i don't want to prevent them from using the nifty trick they sacrificed so many feats for, just make them have to pause and ask themselves, "do i really need the extra damage, or do i need the turning attempts today?" ^^

and when they look at you, pick up a die, let it fall while staring them in the eye, look down at it and tell them one of the two answers. heheheheh. and be sure to smile real big.

CelestialBarbarian
09-07-2008, 12:46 AM
Wow! Thanks everyone for the great replies! I actually ended up telling that I while I have no problem with a character using an 11th-level slot to walk around with Righteous Might all day, that I wasn't too comfortable with using a 5th-level slot to do it. Someone over at he Wizards boards suggested I offer him instead the combination of Quicken Spell and Divine Metamagic. That combination appealed more to me, so I did suggest it. :)

I actually miss the old know alignment spell. :(

Xanatheus
10-31-2009, 08:35 AM
I was getting ready to play a cleric with DMM and Persistent Spell. I was also looking to Extend the persistent spell. This would allow me to basically double my cleric's buffs. My maximum spell level is 6th. I'm only allowed one spell per spell level from any source other than the PHB. Also a spell may be persisted if its range is fixed as if Righteous Wrath of the Faithful and Recitation. All spells to be persisted were cast using a karma bead from a strand of prayer beads

Day 1
Extended Persistent DMM Righteous Might
Extended Persistent DMM Divine Power
Extended Persistent DMM Righteous Wrath of the Faithful

Day 2
Extended Persistent DMM Recitation
Extended Persistent DMM Mass Lesser Vigor
Extended Persistent DMM Freedom of Movement

Day 3
Repeat day 1

What do you think?

d-_-b
10-31-2009, 10:38 AM
You should also beware of your players' dabbling in magic items created with the Persistent Spell feat(I generally disallow it). The rules for creating magic items state that they should be made in the cheapest possible way.
A way of using Persistent meta magic to create items is to make fx. a one charge ring with a divine spell effect. As a persistent spell lasts for 24 hours this allows you to reduce the price of the item by 50 percent. Furthermore an item with only one charge per day slashes the price by 80 percent.

A ring of Divine Power with one charge per day would cost 5600gp.
4(spell level) * 7(caster level) * 2000gp / 2(24h duration) * 0,2(Divide by (5 divided by charges per day))

The only drawback on this item is that the effect technically can be dispelled.

TheDarkestOfAngels
10-31-2009, 10:42 AM
A prospective new player asked me if I'd allow the combination of Persistent Spell and Divine Metamagic, which some DMs disallow. While I suspect that people use it all the time, I've never run across it either as a DM or as a player, and I was wondering what people think about it. Thanks. :)

I'm playing a cloistered cleric like that right now. It's a neat ability (and certainly makes unnecessary certain amounts of paperwork) but frankly you're rarely going to have the ability to make more than one ... maybe two spells persistant using divine metamagic because of the huge number of turning attempts you have to sack to use it.
The broken aspects of it only come into play when characters can start buying up nightsticks (an item that gives you bonus turning attempts) or other similar items to make persistent any spell that qualifies.

Even then, there are other limitations and restrictions, such as on what spells you can actually choose to persist. Then there is the fact that with all these spells in persistent effect versus the number you have just to use throughout the day in combat and out-of-combat situations (a flame strike here, an augury there) gets out-of-whack and while you might be powerful, you end up running out of useful cleric-y things to do quickly.

Then there's that this character invests all his power into persistant spells is not doing so well after a disjunction or dispel attempt and all that power just fades away into nothing.

So, basically, don't let the character cheese it through buying items to boost his turning attempts (or just don't allow them to use them for anything other than actual turn or rebuke attempts) and you'll be fine.

CelestialBarbarian
10-31-2009, 03:32 PM
When I got the email notice about a new post on this thread I recognized the title but couldn't really remember the content. Reading the thread I barely remember it, and don't even remember the player who wanted to do it. I think he never joined the group. I barely remember what Divine Metamagic does. I gather from rereading the thread that it allows you to use a turn undead attempt to lower by one the spell-level increase needed to apply the a metamagic feat to a spell. I just pulled out the old Complete Divine and see that it costs one more turn attempt too. So for 7 turn attempts you could made a spell persistent in its own slot. It doesn't sound too bad to me now. I wonder why I disallowed it then? I probably felt wary of some unexpected use of it that would unbalance the game, especially since I didn't know the player. I've had a couple of players who wanted to do some very powerful things, like a fellow who wanted his epic character to start with the saint template, and when I've disallowed them the players have decided not to join. So in those cases it probably was good to disallow them as I avoided having an abusive power-gamer in my group. Anyway, though, I'm not sure that the combination sounds that bad in general. :)

Regicide
01-27-2010, 12:52 AM
I'm actually about to start my first game as a DMM Persistent Spell Cleric which is also my first game as a cleric or divine caster of any kind. Here are my thoughts on this type build: it basically lets a cleric have a druid's effectiveness in melee combat with some advantages over the druid (buffs on all day as opposed to limited uses of wildshape) and drawbacks (dispellable buffs that take most of your available feats and best spell slots and [@lvl6] a good portion of your wealth to implement) but are no more "broken" then the aforementioned base class from the PHB.

Sure, the DMM Persistent Spell Cleric makes the fighter look like a chump in the very areas that the fighter is supposed to excel at. But then so does a Druid built on core materials alone. In fact, the fighter is a chump. The 3.x designers decided to make the poor bastard a mangy featbag with no other class features to speak of, and it shows. Weep for the poor fighter with me, my brothers. WEEP WITH ME!

If a fighter in a group with a DMM Cleric asks you about his 'free spells,' "why they're in your intelligent ancestral artifact sword, the power of which I will base largely on the quality and originality of your epic poem about it's history, you poor Muggle bastard" is the answer that will make the game richer and more fun for everyone.

As for nightsticks, my DM has found an admirable solution: they are very rare and while my cleric has been able to get her hands on one, she might never see another. This is a great middle-ground between banning a juicy magic rod from a supplement and allowing a potentially game-breaking combo into the game.

No one in our level 6 party has considered playing a fighter, and the one player who is not a full spell-caster (rogue-assassin) has been allowed to play a cat-person without the level adjustment.

I'm generally more interested in role-play and character development than I am in combat, but I have found that the two are by no means mutually exclusive. I do tend to try to keep up with the one "powergamer" in our group in terms of optimization when I play with him. The "powergamer" in question is a very helpful one though- he probably spends more time helping other players make combat effective characters than he does on his own monstrous creations. I've never seen him use optimization to make the game any less enjoyable for anyone.

So I guess that my view on this is: it depends on the group. And if you disallow DMM Persist, also consider disallowing the Druid entirely, or consider giving the poor lonely fighter an awesome artifact weapon that will balance the power levels somewhat and root the party more firmly in the lore of the world that you are creating with them.

iainukibolt
02-01-2010, 12:24 PM
This is all easily solved by simply understanding "da rules"
Extended Persistent DMM Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, yeah I don't think it's possible to cast this unless you're epic level. A base third level metamagic spell is 3+6=9th level spell, 4th level is an epic level spell at 4+6=10th level, thus you'd need epic level metamagic for usage. Even with all 3 feats, one of which requires arcana, which is minus -3, you'd still be at level 7-3=4+6=10th. Thus even with all possible feats you couldn't persistent righteous wrath of the faithful.

In regards to a few other spells there, some of those are 4th level+, meaning you'd need both domains most likely for the feats "for extra turning", for "extend spell", to qualify. That's 3 feats metamagic, extend spell, extra turning, thus you'd need to be human unless you take domains, thus even with those domains you'd need to take domain specific spells, and unfortunately a lot of those spells aren't domain specific because their either "good" domains as such.

Even if you managed this, the nightsticks, ok rods typically take out a hand slot, whilst it doesn't specifically say that, any DM with a brain would require you to actually hold the rods to use them. Or what are your rods magically on your belt where you can always get the gift "magically". Tad far fetched, additionally if you do need to use the sticks in your hands, no weapons for fighter spells that you'd be using.

While it's true persistent spell does seem to extend, *Note I still need to research this as possible*, that's an interesting note. You can only use self, radius styled spells, so your spell pool choice is limited at best.

To touch on a few points, you'd need to basically purchase with nearly all your gold disspelling equips, because if any of your babies gets disspelled you're junked. That makes you just a regular cleric in a powerful group, who hopefully has the support of his allies.

This build is possible, but it's difficult. I don't think you can cast wrath of the faithful though. If you figure out a way, hey let me know. :biggrin:

Gah I already noticed a few errors, faithful is a level 5 spell, so lets see, extend spell x2, metamagic, extra turning *Which probably needs to be x2*, spell focus (enchantment), extra metamagic *for only one spell*, so lets see, 8 feats to do a faithful wrath spell extended is what I've got. Human, level 10, that's 4 feats, uh, where'd you get 4 more feats? Level 12, 15, I guess additional 2+4=6. Then somehow you managed 2 more with domains, at level 15 you can use it is my calculation, just due to the sheer amount of turns for other spells needed to do the extra turning for all other spells, but spell focus does help bring down the amount of turns needed. Obviously you need the beads and a bunch of other items, plus a good weapon, a nice wis and cha score, thus a lot of gold. That 4th level spell isn't enchantment type, so you'd need an ADDTIONAL feat to in spell focus aju to take that. Hehe, so 9 feats. I can keep going and going here.

Now that I think of it, persistant requires extend as a feat, you'd be working backwards to even use extend with persistant, so I don't think you'd be able to persist extend because it's already extended.

Karrius
02-01-2010, 01:13 PM
Even if you managed this, the nightsticks, ok rods typically take out a hand slot, whilst it doesn't specifically say that, any DM with a brain would require you to actually hold the rods to use them. Or what are your rods magically on your belt where you can always get the gift "magically". Tad far fetched, additionally if you do need to use the sticks in your hands, no weapons for fighter spells that you'd be using.

Hold the rod, cast the spells, then put the used rods away. You cast these at the beginning of the day, after all.



To touch on a few points, you'd need to basically purchase with nearly all your gold disspelling equips, because if any of your babies gets disspelled you're junked.

Dispelling is very, very rarely worth it. As a DMM cleric, two items you want ASAP are Karma Beads and an Orange Ioun Stone, which grant you +5 caster levels total. Seeing as, unlike the fighter, you don't need to buy magical weapons, armor, and a few other items, this isn't hard. Not to mention that dispelling is a bad combat tactic. If a lower level enemy is trying to dispel you, that's just not going to work (seeing as he has to roll 16 + level difference). If a higher level enemy tries to dispel you, that's GOOD - a cleric with no buffs is far, far better than a cleric who is flat-out dead. It's a wasted action.

I'm pretty sure you can do a persist-extend combo, but it just doesn't seem worth it to do so. 24 hour duration is good enough.

Also count me in for thinking that both Divine Metamagic and Persistent Spell are two of the worst-balanced feats ever printed.

Regicide
02-01-2010, 02:27 PM
I'm pretty sure you can do a persist-extend combo, but it just doesn't seem worth it to do so. 24 hour duration is good enough.According to rules as written, you can stack meta-magic. There is no special exception for extend and persist. I believe that the rules also state that the player gets to decide which metamagic effect modifies the other. So yes it is possible. As to it being worth it... well... let me put it this way: my lvl 6 cleric can persist 3 spells a day, but with a lesser rod of extend (or just the plain old feat) thrown into the mix, she can have 6 buffs constantly on. 3 vs. 6. That's QUITE worth it. It's the difference between Ice Axe, Divine Retaliation and Cloud of Knives vs. all of the above plus Prayer, Mass Lesser Vigor and Divine Favor. In other words, lesser extend adds +1 to and attack damage rolls, as well as +1 to all skill and will saves for the entire party and -1 for the same for it's enemies, as well as +1 fast healing for 3 members of the party and an additional +2 to attack and damage for the cleric in question. That's quite a difference, so yes, objectivly speaking it is very much worth it. This is what happens when you cast 48 hour buffs instead of 24 hour ones. They overlap from day top day, so you can cast alternate sets of 3 and thus have twice as many on.


7-3=4+6=10thI've never heard of a say... greater metamagic rod of extend requiring the caster to be at epic levels or to have a special feat to utilize it's stated function of extending 9th lvl spells. Even though they would technically become 10th level spells according to your reading of the rules. No one plays this way. If you have this rod as a 17th lvl wizard, you can extend 17th lvl spells. Otherwise what would be the point of the damned rod? And why is DMM any different? You suggest an interesting house rule, though.

iainukibolt
02-02-2010, 04:30 PM
One feat is a requirement for the other one, that's why it seemed murky to me.

Even if you held the rod and cast the spell, the rod only affects for that specific spell, you'd need to somehow combine all the rods by holding them, which would require an entirely different item combo. Though it doesn't state you need hold the rod, I still think it's odd that you'd be able to hold 4 rods and cast 4 spells all at once, this is just an interesting note to me.

It's because the required spell of persistent is already 7th level, you're using extra turning to lower the spell slot to cast the spell. But once you exceed 10th level, it becomes epic level. Thus you'd actually need to use the epic level handbook, and since you can't take epic level feats or spells, you couldn't cast it. You can use a rod that has a cast level 17th normally, but someone else made that rod. You'd be using your rod and your ability to do it, so it's a tad different to me, since you're technically lowering the level of the spell to cast it as that spell slot, you can't use 10th level spells until you're past 20+. This is why you'd need the feat focus and other feats to lower the meta-magic spell slot, or else what would be the point to these feats if this wasn't the case?

The whole point to metamagic feat is to use it to lower the spell for turns to be able to use the spell, if you can't access that spell slot how would it make sense for an none epic character to cast it?

There's also this duration to discuss. I view duration as once it's up you can add to it. So you could extend a wand on it, but you can't use 2 wands. So w/e duration you lost in that short period would be lost then add the extended time to it. And the matter that you're doing this all at once, casting a spell, how much would you be able to do with that spell in the frame of time you'd cast it using a specific set of items. From what I know, the wand has 3 charges per day, it extends while you use the spell, but that wand has to be the spell level, which is an expensive wand.

I'm not disagreeing, I'm just stating my case.

Regicide
02-02-2010, 08:46 PM
Even if you held the rod and cast the spell, the rod only affects for that specific spell, you'd need to somehow combine all the rods by holding them, which would require an entirely different item combo. Though it doesn't state you need hold the rod, I still think it's odd that you'd be able to hold 4 rods and cast 4 spells all at once, this is just an interesting note to me. I'm talking about using one rod to modify one spell that had already been modified with another meta-magic effect powered by DMM.


One feat is a requirement for the other one, that's why it seemed murky to me.
Weapon focus is a requirement for weapon specialization, and yet no one would deny that the feats can and do function together. Whirlwind Attack requires the Dodge feat, and yet a Fighter can receive the benefits of both feats simultaneously. Feats that are requirements for other feats do not become obsolete when the more powerful higher level feat comes into effect. This is not how 3.5 feat trees work.


if you can't access that spell slot how would it make sense for an none epic character to cast it? Because DMM by definition allows you to use metamagic without using, or even having access to, higher level spell slots. It is an alternative way to powering metamagic, Just like a rod of extend spell is. If you are casting a meta-magic enhanced spell that would otherwise require a spell slot that you do not have access to in a slot that you do have access to, I do not believe that there is anything in the rules that would prevent you from doing so.

Lets say I have a level four slot. DMM lets me cast a persisted level four spell in that slot. That's OK. Because casting the spell with DMM does not require a 10th lvl slot. A level 4 DMM persisted spell is a 4th level spell prepared in a 4th level slot, and so you only require a 4th level slot to prepare and cast it in. I could be wrong of course, and would be interested in seeing any language in the rules that proves me wrong quoted here.


So w/e duration you lost in that short period would be lost then add the extended time to it.Persist sets spell duration to 24 hours. Extend doubles the duration. 24x2=48. There is nothing within the rules as written about duration-related metamagic not being able to stack as other metamagic can.
the wand has 3 charges per day, it extends while you use the spell, but that wand has to be the spell level, which is an expensive wand.With DMM, you can apply metamagic to a spell without using a higher level slot. Thus you can use a lesser rod of extend on a persistent lvl 3 spell prepared in a level 3 slot with DMM. Why? because it is a level three spell prepared in a level 3 slot. And The lesser rod allows you to extend lvl 3 spells prepared in level three slots.

Xanatheus
02-04-2010, 06:37 PM
Iainukibolt, here's my character's feat list:

1st level: Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell), Persistent Spell
3rd level: Extra Turning
6th level: Extra Turning
9th level: Extra Turning
12th level: Leadership
Domains: Undeath (grants Extra Turning) and Planning (grants Extend Spell)

The character is soon to make 13th level and the daily spells that are persisted via DMM have changed.

Day 1: Holy Transformation
Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (Extended)
Divine Power (Extended)

Day 2: Holy Transformation
Righteous Might (Extended)
Recitation (Extended)

Although this cleric is true neutral he plans on casting enough evil spells in a day to counteract the lawfulness and goodness of HT. Death knell works great for that. Can death knell be extended, the duration is instantaneous/10 minutes per HD of subject?

Regicide
02-04-2010, 08:21 PM
My DM said that my character has to worship a deity from a published 3.5 source, so I picked Chronepsis, the dragon god of fate and death. No deity has both undeath and planning, but time and planning are nice too.

My feats are:
1st lvl- Persistent Spell,
Planning domain- Extend Spell
Time domain- Improved Initiative
Human- DMM
3rd lvl- Extra Turning
6th lvl- Extra Turning

I get another 4 turn attempts from my one nightstick. I get 2 more from my reliquary holy symbol (1 from a divine feat that I lave [DMM] and another for 5 ranks in "knowledge religion") and though my CHA is only 14, I cast eagle's splendor on myself right before I cast my persistent spells every morning.

4+4+4+2+2+2+3=21
21/7=3

That's 3 persistent spells a day, extended (with a lesser rod of extend) to last two days each.

Day one:

1) Divine favor (ext)
2) Ice Axe (ext)
3) Divine Retaliation (ext)

Day two:

1) Mass Lesser Vigor (ext)
2) Prayer (ext)
3) Cloud of Knives (ext)

Rinse, lather and repeat.
Can death knell be extended, the duration is instantaneous/10 minutes per HD of subject?No. The duration is "instantaneous." This makes the spell unpersistable. Isn't it also a touche spell? That rules it out too. EDIT: wait... you said extendable not persitable... let me check... "A spell with a duration of concentration, instantaneous, or permanent is not affected by this feat." so no, not extendable either.

Although this cleric is true neutral he plans on casting enough evil spells in a day to counteract the lawfulness and goodness of HT Luckily my DM has ruled that spells with inherent alignments are silly and a character's alignment is based on their actual behavior i.e. what they do to the world with their spells rather than a spell's alignment descriptor.

iainukibolt
02-05-2010, 01:14 PM
I'm curious about a few of those spells, Ice Axe doesn't allow strength to be used with it, nor any other weapon held. It's just a +10 straight damage 1d8 weapon eventually, correct?

Cloud of Knives makes it impossible to heal allies, because every square around you is taken up by knives, I know you give fast healing but doesn't that make it impossible to cast heal spells?

What is "Holy Transformation"? Sounds like you've gone completely melee orient.

I agree that spell domains should be how you use them, rather than limiting a players spell selection. Of course that seems unfair to Wizards who only get certain spell schools so if I'm a DM I'd be iffy on letting that go. Having all domains without limits seems a little powerful, but again everyone is trying to encourage players to play clerics.

Also to note is if you take both those domains, you need to take all the + spells from those domains, all the spells listed so far aren't apart of those domain spells.

I suppose if you had the spell slot to use, you could temporary boost your cha score to gain more turnings, I recall the holy symbol and nightstick being pretty expensive, the meta-magic less rod wasn't too bad, I think it's roughly 11k for 4-6 spells, which is all the extending you'd really need until epic. It all depends on where you want to spend your money.

I'm currently running a tortle warlock/eldritch/cleric that uses this build, he uses chain heals so I'm thinking of using the knives regardless. I must admit as he progresses and eventually begins to max his blasts he'll be pretty hacked with all the buffs. Potentially with the greater meta-magic rod you could do 12 spells 24/7, I'm not even sure there's 12 spells to pick from nor if you could muster the spell space to do this, but 12 spells 24/7 plus damage maximized off touch equal to a wizards, can you say hax? :p

The last paragraph was a bit of a ramble. I'd just like to know about those spells.

Regicide
02-06-2010, 01:42 AM
I'm curious about a few of those spells, Ice Axe doesn't allow strength to be used with it, nor any other weapon held. It's just a +10 straight damage 1d8 weapon eventually, correct?The damage is +1 per 2 caster levels (10 is indeed the max, but at lvl 6 I'm nowhere near that), but the base isn't d8- its 2d12. It's basically a 'battle axe' that's the equivalent of two greataxes tied together with a rope of pure awesome, is drawn and sheathed instantly, one-handed and hits when it touches. Divine favor, by the way gives it a further +2 to attack and damage as it does to all three of my attacks. Prayer gives another +1 to both. So for me, that's 2d12 +6. A bit more if the Archivist makes his knowledge check :D

Nothing about "no other weapon held," either. If I wanted to take the atrocious TWF penalty, take the TWF feat, or buy the expensive bracers that give me the TWF feat, I could technically persist another (fire-based) touch attack that is similar, only allows both ranged AND melee touch attacks. I have two hands, right? I forget the name of that spell. The rules lawyer/ expert min-maxer of our group couldn't find anything wrong with this, but I didn't bother asking the DM since I'd rather do other things with my spells, feats and gold ATM. Also, using a shield is a good thing. but I'm going to keep the spell in mind as an alternative to Ice Axe in case our DM sends us somewhere where cold resistant enemies seem likely.

Cloud of Knives makes it impossible to heal allies, because every square around you is taken up by knives, I know you give fast healing but doesn't that make it impossible to cast heal spells?You're thinking of Wall of Blades, a spell that I considered but decided against. It would have been so awesome to be have a third persistent spell that manifests itself as floating weapons, but it just wasn't worth it to me. Even if the DM rules that there is a small chance that a clumsy adventurer could accidentally cut themselves on these floating knives, the damage should not be significant, and even more unlikely if armor is worn. The crux of the spell is that they float around me until I launch one as an extra action at the beginning of every round, and they take up my square, not every square around me. The spell is in PHB2. Healing allies hasn't proven to be necessary yet, as I am also the one who's up front dealing and taking damage. The Archivist has had to cast Close Wounds on me once though. But then we've only had one combat. I did end up falling below zero (-1) and being knocked out by the last lizardman barbarian standing, but my divine retaliation killed him before I even hit the ground :lol:
I was back up less than a minute later, thanks to fast healing.

You didn't ask about divine retaliation, so I imagine that you know what it does. Not much for it's standard 1 round duration, but all day? Redonkulous.
Of course that seems unfair to Wizards who only get certain spell schoolsDon't ever predicate an argument on something being "unfair to Wizards" (!) especially in terms of spell selection :p
I recall the holy symbol and nightstick being pretty expensiveNot the Holy Symbol. Just 1000. The Nightstick though sets you back 7500, which hurts.
the meta-magic less rod wasn't too bad3,000 for lvl 1-3 spells- which is all that I can cast ATM. I only need one, since I can only DMM persist 3 spells a day. The rod effectively turns this number into 6. I had the other party members split it with me, as it is the item that allows me to buff them.
It all depends on where you want to spend your money.In my case, my armor and the ability to persist as many spells as possible for as long as possible. The latter grants me 3 amazing weapons, a damage and attack bonus to all of them, fast healing 1 for myself and the party, and a bonus to every skill check, damage roll, attack roll and save as well as a penalty to the last set of stats to all enemies within 40 feet of the party.

Nor are these set in stone, as the bonus of something like a keen +1 flaming burst falchion is. I can always decide to change my spells up in the beginning of the day. If we're doing a more intrigue-heavy adventure, I just might want to trade Divine Favor for Comprehend Languages and Mass Lesser Vigor for Detect Thoughts.


Potentially with the greater meta-magic rod you could do 12 spells 24/7 Is your DM allowing you multiple Nightsticks then? Or are you taking a level of Dread Necromancer for an extra source of turning which also benefits separately from any and all Extra Turning feats?

Xanatheus
02-06-2010, 06:48 AM
Holy transformation grants a sacred bonus to Str and Con and saves. It also makes evil opponents take an unnamed penalty to saves and attack. It also grants darkvision. It grants other benefits as well. There's a lesser version of it too, that grants flying. Flying all day is nice but the other benefits don't measure up. I'm not sure where the orginal spell is from. The version I use is from the Spell Compendium.

It does however conflict somewhat with Righteous Might. I'm able to extend and persist Righteous Might so day one I'm a large hound archon. On day 2 I need to cast Holy Transformation again which reduces my size back down to Medium eliminating a +4 size bonus to Str and +2 size bonus to Con. I loose the size penalty to AC.

The party is made up of a Samurai/Kensi (Sp?), Wizard/Rogue, and a Rogue. The DM allows only one spell per spell level from an alternate source other than the PHB. I also have to give up one spell from the PHB of the same level: 1st level Resurgence, 2nd level Avoid Planar Effects, 3rd level Mass Lesser Vigor, 4th level Recitation, 5th level Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, 6th level Superior Resistance, 7th level Holy Transformation, 8th level will be Stormrage, 9th level will be Greater Visage of the Deity. Most of those spells are persistable.

Everyday starts with about 11 or 12 spells cast which last at least 17 hours some longer than 48. My domain spells do get cast. Currently in the game one of the four PCs is getting scried. Now I'm casting Detect Scrying which lasts 24 hours.

ignimbrite
02-06-2010, 09:12 AM
Regicide,
don't your persistent extended spells need to be range personal?
If so how do you cast mass lesser vigor on day 2?
And isn't prayer an area effect spell not a personal spell? I know you cast it on yourself (although there is no range touch in the description) but if does effects all allies, which kinda goes against the intent of the feats even if it doesn't go against the exact writing of the feats.

Xanatheus
02-06-2010, 10:37 AM
"Spells with a fixed or personal range can have their duration increased..."

Eldrich Thurge
02-06-2010, 11:28 PM
There is a major flaw and DM control with all Divine Metamagic/ persistant spell builds. It's name is Dispel Magic. Some abjurer casts that and most of your feats just became useless. AND you are out of turning attempts. Time to send in a greater shadow or two.:bolt:

Regicide
02-07-2010, 03:47 AM
But this works on any buffs that a cleric casts. Whether they last 2 days or 2 rounds. And the Fighter equivalent is arguably even more nefarious. It's called a Rust Monster. And dispel magic temporarily suppresses the powers of magic items as well. So this character isn't any more vulnerable to an abjurer than any other character that relies on spells that have a duration- or magic items for that matter. Nor is the fact that this character has a vulnerability somehow unique to the build.

So basically, anyone other than the lowly blaster mage is brought low by the abjurer. Oh, also the druid. Wildshape cannot be dispelled, so the druid still owns all, apparently.

As for the greater shadows... well- sure. The DM can tailor encounters to require the very resources that the party has expanded. This character isn't unique in this regard either. This is also why I like to prepare Hide from Undead every day:lol:

But exchanging a conditionally decent power like turn undead for a universally awesome power like DMM persist is still a very good trade. One is useless unless you're fighting undead, and the other is vulnerable to a very specific sort of enemy. No guarantee that the abjurer will be able dispel all your buffs, either. And even if he gets all of my buffs, two other folks in the party still have fast healing. This doesn't render my feats useless. It renders them less useful in this particular situation. And most other builds are utterly useless in far more situations.

And if it looks like some undead are likely to turn up the next day (party is asked to explore a crypt, etc) then I'll just persist 2 buffs that day and have 5 turn attempts left over. And I'll also have an extra lvl 2 spell slot that I didn't have to use to cast Eagle's Splendor on myself so that I'd have enough turn attempts to persist that third spell. Sure this makes it more difficult to deal with unexpected undead. But that's also the 'disadvantage' of playing a Wizard. Welcome to the world of prepared spell-casting :D

And not having to deal with out of combat healing for most of the party (lesser mass vigor) also frees up a few spell slots for unlikely but nasty contingencies that won't be burned on cure spells right before the combat in which they might prove life-saving.

It's like trading the Ranger's Favored Enemy class feature for the favored enemy bonus against every enemy who isn't a something-or-other. It allows the DM to **** with you considerably, but then the regular ranger requires the DM to tailor the combats to you for you to be particularly effective. That's far worse.

Speaking of rangers, ours has favored enemy: arcanists from Complete Mage. So there's a little insurance against abjurers. :cool:

If there isn't a major flaw or inherent DM control in a character short of 'rocks fall, everybody dies,' then something is terribly wrong. I'm looking at you, Druid :mad:

Karrius
02-07-2010, 04:23 AM
There is a major flaw and DM control with all Divine Metamagic/ persistant spell builds. It's name is Dispel Magic. Some abjurer casts that and most of your feats just became useless. AND you are out of turning attempts. Time to send in a greater shadow or two.:bolt:

And again, the alternative, frankly, is DYING. Most of your spells are going to be at +4 to +5 caster level at higher levels, and any enemy who's casting dispel magic is not casting Dominate Person. If the enemy wants to throw dispels, it's their choice to waste their time.

Regicide
02-07-2010, 04:27 AM
Last but not least, our arcane caster (Mystic Ranger variant from a Dragon mag with a feat from FR that grants him access to the wiz-sorc spell list) has an Extended Rope Trick up his sleeve for just such a contingency :p
--- Merged from Double Post ---

And again, the alternative, frankly, is DYING. Most of your spells are going to be at +4 to +5 caster level at higher levels, and any enemy who's casting dispel magic is not casting Dominate Person. If the enemy wants to throw dispels, it's their choice to waste their time.Unless he's casting quickened dispel magic :eek:

This turns into an epic petard-hoist (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HoistByHisOwnPetard) if the enemy in question is actually a cleric using DMM Quicken:lol:

Xanatheus
02-07-2010, 08:32 AM
Or you could use a ring slot and have a ring of counterspells (dispel magic).

Regicide
02-07-2010, 09:16 AM
That's actually a pretty awesome idea, Xanatheus. I might buy one once I have 4,000 gold to spare. Even before I spring for a wisdom-enhancing item, but probably not before I get a +1 shield. However, there's always Greater Dispel Magic to worry about at higher levels.

Once the first attempt fails though, the bastard will most likely not survive long enough to make a second :evil:
Unless he's that pesky DMM Quicken Cleric ;)
--- Merged from Double Post ---
Knowing my DM's style though, he's more likely to use other 'controls' such as elemental rock-paper-scissors and the jump/swim/climb/etc penalties imposed by my heavy plate.

iainukibolt
02-07-2010, 03:31 PM
Improved Spell Capacity [Epic]

Prerequisite

Ability to cast spells of the normal maximum spell level in at least one spellcasting class.
Benefit

When you select this feat, you gain one spell slot per day of any level up to one level higher than the highest-level spell you can already cast in a particular class. You must still have the requisite ability score (10 + spell level) in order to cast any spell stored in this slot. If you have a high enough ability modifier to gain one or more bonus spells for this spell level, you also gain the bonus spells for this spell level. You must use the spell slot as a member of the class in which you can already cast spells of the normal maximum spell level.
Special

You can gain this feat multiple times.
Spell Slots Above 9th Level

The Improved Spell Capacity feat allows characters to gain spell slots above 9th level (which can be used to hold lower-level spells or spells whose level has been increased beyond 9th by the use of metamagic feats).
A character with a very high score in the ability associated with his or her spellcasting (Intelligence for wizards (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#wizard); Wisdom for clerics (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm), druids (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm), paladins (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm), and rangers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/ranger.htm); or Charisma for bards (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm) and sorcerers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#sorcerer)) may receive bonus spells of those levels, as shown on Table: Expanded Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#tableExpandedAbilityModifiersandBonusSpe lls), but only if they already have at least one spell slot of that level (such as from the Improved Spell Capacity feat). A character without any spell slots of a level canít receive any bonus spells of that level, even if the appropriate ability score is high enough to award them.
Even though the table only includes ability scores up to 61 and spell slots up to 25th level, the progression continues infinitely in both directions. For ability scores beyond 61, or for spell slots above 25th level, expand the table to follow the same patterns as shown.


Just to show there is an actual table for this, so I think a few things you guys are doing isn't possible yet.

Xanatheus
02-07-2010, 06:42 PM
To: iainukibolt
The last line of DMM states: "Because you're using positive or negative energy to augment your spells, the spell slot for the spell doesn't change."

To Regicide:
I'm 13th level now so that kind of money is pretty easy to acquire (4k). My other ring will be a ring of greater counterspells. I believe that is in the DMG2. Since I don't have the money I haven't really looked it up.

Regicide
02-08-2010, 05:26 AM
Spell Slots Above 9th Level
*sigh*
I think that I've gone over this like 2 or 3 times with you. DMM allows you to apply metamagic without using a higher spell slot. So a 4th level spell made persistent with DMM is a 4th level spell in a fourth level slot. You don't ever need a 10th level slot to cast a 4th level spell in a 4th level slot. You don't even need a 5th level slot to cast it. You just need a 4th level slot to cast it, as well as some feats and a bunch of turn attempts.

The feat you describe allows you to cast 9th level spells with metamagic, but nowhere does it say that it's the only way to do so. I can think of at least three more ways of doing so without this feat. The Incantrix class from FR, metamagic rods and the DMM feat. Are you going to argue that you can't extend a 9th level spell with a greater rod if you don't have this feat? Please note this feat is about slots above 9th level. If you have a way of applying Metamagic without using slots above the 9th (as the prestige class, magic rod and divine feat that I mentioned allow you to), then this epic feat is basically moot. DMM is one of the things that makes this feat moot.
so I think a few things you guys are doing isn't possible yet.While you are most certainly free to think so, please be aware that the text that you cited in no way supports this assertion. You're talking about spell slots above the 9th. We're talking about game mechanics that allow players to apply metamagic without requiring them to use or even possess a higher level spell slot. The feat that you are citing is actually a total non sequitur here.

or spells whose level has been increased beyond 9th by the use of metamagic feats)And DMM is a way of using metamagic without increasing the level of a spell. Thus this text has nothing to do with DMM.
--- Merged from Double Post ---
And as a total side note, how much would a Karma bead cost? More caster lv = more damage and more resilience against those pesky abjurers = WIN.

iainukibolt
02-08-2010, 11:37 AM
I have made you correct me 3 times, I apologize, an alternative rule would be to use what I listed. But you're correct 3 times in a row, that it can be used because it doesn't change the spell slot, which is states specifically.

Can you maximize ice axe..? Like a maximized, persistent, extended ice axe of doom? :laugh:

I noticed you'd need the lesser and medium rods to cast the 48/14 spells since one is for 1-3 the other for 4-6, just to note my price went up a tad, but since you can only do 3 until you have additional rods, thus 2 lesser 2 of the 4-6, no point taking too many turn undead beyond 21 for the 48/14 spells. Besides the extra turns of course. So if I used 4 rods, could I possibly use 6 per day, 6 per day, thus allowing 12 spells per day? If this is the case, lets discuss spell selection.

Holy Symbol also lets you add a turn for every prereq you complete, I think it's P.120 MIT if anyone is curious. This had been listed once but listing it again because it's important.

I noticed an interesting spell called Blistering Radiance, I'm pretty sure you could also persist this, allowing you to always have a chance to daze the enemy and do damage, also Chaav's laugh is extremely good, it replaces a lot of the lower spells allowing you to take new spells instead since a lot of the saves don't stack.

Also to note good spells include inhibit and knights move, while they don't work with the persist directly they compliment each other well.

Day 1:
Divine Retaliation 1-1/2 dmg times wisdom modifier for each attack against you. *WHOA*

Ice Axe Can this be maximized to an automatic 24 damage from 2d12? Regardless, WHOA!

Divine favor +3 dmg, +3 to hit, because it compliments Ice axe perfect as was already stated.

Day 2:
Righteous wrath of the faithful, because it grants allies one additional attack, +3 moral to attack/dmg. This takes care of the moral buff to attack/dmg and haste for joor allies. WHOA WHOA.

Blistering Radiance, assuming cloud of knives could be used with the 12 spell build, this is a nice 5th level spell that dazzles ANY target in the huge radius, can you say uber WHOA hacked?

Mass vigor lesser, never have to heal again, as everyone in this thread stated, this is an automatic lock.

Can I get an amen? Additional adds if 12, divine power, righteous might, chaav's laugh, recitation *for the saving throws*, holy transformation *for the DR, eventually replaced by divine power I believe, or if you decide to use a regular weapon instead of ice axe.* Prayer might still be worth while if it didn't get replaced by righteous wrath or recitation, let me know on this, elation is a must with 12 spells, because it never gets replaced by another buff that I know of, blood of the martyr because this spell is godly, you give your HP to anyone at a range, zone of truth is useful, body blades and the blades that take squares next to you are must spells, aid and bless might be replaced, hide from undead as stated in this thread is a must, knight's move is super useful, also there's another rogue type spell to consider, I forgot its name.

If you can use 4 rods, exchange hands, 3 3 3 3, what would your ideal 12 be?

Regicide
02-08-2010, 04:12 PM
I have made you correct me 3 times, I apologizeSorry if I came off as an impatient dick.
, an alternative rule would be to use what I listed. It's a reasonable house rule, yes.
Can you maximize ice axe..? Like a maximized, persistent, extended ice axe of doom? :laugh: Not sure if it's worth it IMHO unless you somehow have a great deal of turn undead attempts left over as well as an unused feat for Maximize spell.
If you have an extra 3 turns and an extra feat, just take extra turning again and persist another spell.
But that's entirely a matter of opinion.
And some of us actually enjoy rolling for damage :p


Holy Symbol also lets you add a turn for every prereq you completeAnd since one is a divine feat (DMM qualifies) and another is 5 ranks in knowledge religion (easy!) that's 2 right there.

Xanatheus
02-08-2010, 07:58 PM
I've found persisting Mass Lesser Vigor is not really worth it at 12th or 13th level. The damage that is being dealt far surpasses the fast healing benefit. All it seems to do is stabilize a recipient once they go into negatives. That is if they don't outright die. I find Recitation persisted much better especially if you can con...I mean convert the other players to your deity or belief, then the bonus is +3.

Righteous might has much better DR than Holy Transformation at 15th level or level 11 if you're lucky enough to own a bead of karma. DR9/Evil or Good is reason enough to always walk around Large.

Holy Transformation has some incredible sacred bonuses. I've built my character to have incredible saves. The +4 stacks with just about everything.

Currently I'm saving up for a ring of greater counterspells (greater dispel magic).

Righteous Wrath of the Faithful is not as good as haste. My cleric is slowed down by full plate and the enhancement bonus granted by haste is very useful especially if the main fighter goes down. The extra movement can save lives. Persisting Prayer and Recitation can be done but it is a waste in my opinion. Really all you gain is granting the enemies a -1 luck penalty.

Regicide
02-08-2010, 08:30 PM
Righteous Wrath of the Faithful is not as good as haste.Too bad haste isn't persistable.
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
That's a variable rather than fixed range.
I've found persisting Mass Lesser Vigor is not really worth it at 12th or 13th level.Even at lvl 6, the spell is mostly for out-of combat healing.

iainukibolt
02-09-2010, 04:43 PM
12 spells, does anyone want to tackle what spells to take then? I guess doesn't the fast healing 1 eventually become fast healing 2 or 3 with a new version of vigor? It is mostly for out of combat, but then you don't need to heal whiner players and waste spells, I guess that's why I'd still argue it's a lock.

I realize righteous wrath doesn't give the speed, many cheap items do, I figured this benefits the group because it offers the attack and stat bonuses, you can't really go wrong with this.

Nobody commented on chaav's laugh or blistering radiance, this is surprising, I'd like both of your inputs. Blistering radiance has a nice range.

I didn't realize holy transformation had different saves, that's indeed good, plus the DR is obviously nice.

Wouldn't something like elation benefit over recitation, granted it gives plus to attack and saving throw, but doesn't this overlap with another saving throw ability like chaav's kiss which grants even more saving throw? While righteous of faithful grants +3 to moral attack and damage, recitation only grants +2 to attack. It seems less to me other than the saving throws. Then again it also has -2 to enemies attacks, so you might be right that it has a slight edge. I just think the overlap is alarming, it's easy to throw up another lower spell to make enemy attacks drop a few points though.

Regicide
02-09-2010, 05:30 PM
Please keep in mind that my knowledge of cleric spells to persist is largely limited to the research that I did for this character, who only has access to 1st, 2nd and 3rd lvl spells.

Elation is great. I very much considered adding it to my persistent repertoire but for my unwillingness to give up any of the ones mentioned. +2 Morale bonus (i.e stacks with enhancement bonuses!) to str and dex, as well +5 ft move speed for the entire party is nothing to shake a stick at. But since I'm the party tank and neither str nor dex is very useful to me, divine favor beats it out as it grants +2 att and dmg to all 3 of my persistent attack spells.

Xanatheus
02-09-2010, 06:48 PM
Crap! I typed up a 12 spell list and it is gone!

Here it is again
1 Recitation - Spell Compendium version grants +3 luck bonus to saves AC and attack
2 Divine Power
3 Freedom of Movement
4 Righteous Wrath of the Faithful
5 Righteous Might
6 Fire Shield possible with Sun or Fire Domain
7 Shapechange possible with Animal Domain. I believe there's another domain too.
8 Vigorous Circle
9 Stormrage
10 Greater Visage of the Deity
11 Holy/Infernal Transformation Your choice
12 Find the Path

Don't forget to cast Heroes' Feast and Superior Resistance at the beginning of the day. You'll be immune to poison and fear for 12 hours, possibly 24 if you extend HF. The spells are in no particular order. Most are defensive in nature.

Do you have a level limit?

iainukibolt
02-10-2010, 08:49 AM
I'll review those, lets put the limit at level 16, since this is roughly where campaigns stop. Though this campaign might be going epic. Right now we're level 10, and our DM tends to level us very fast, so it'll be interesting to see what level we are after Saturday. Typically we average 3 levels a gaming session, which I dislike because it doesn't give me as much time to prepare. By the way I'm the only caster in the group. We have a samurai, druid, and knight, so we're tank melee heavy.

1)
First to note something rather unusual. Recitation in the description has foes also listed, but it doesn't include the -1 from the spell compendium that the regular spell has, also it had some interesting requirements, it requires a sacred text divine focus. I'm not sure what this entails, additional and it's been stated it's only +3 if they worship your deity, this isn't exactly easy to role play.

2)
Divine power is indeed an awesome spell, but you'd be picking this over picking ice axe. The BAB it gives might be requirement enough to make you hit the enemies, but ice axe still does a nice ton of damage. I'm having a difficult time making this decision to be honest. How about making your weapon into wood, there's a ton of wood spells you can persist that would deal massive amounts of damage.

3)
Freedom of movement is a nice spell, but you can't persist it because it's a touch spell. Therefore you give up a level 4 spell slot that probably is needed for your list of 12 persist spells. I actually meant all 12 spells to be persisted eventually.

4)
I agreed with this guy, but it's still debated the exact list of buffs to take without stacking on each other.

5)
Again this is dependent on ice axe.

6 and 7)
Both domain based which will make persist problematic due to the loss of feats.

Heroes feast is awesome, but there's only one problem, you can't be attacked for that period of hour. Where did you locate the superior resistance spell?

This was my final list of 6, divine retaliation, ice axe *Though making this into a wooden weapon might be even more powerful*, divine favor, righteous, vigor greater, recitation *but only for the ac, since the saving throw would of easily been gained*.

I found something else interesting, does healthful rest stack with fast healing? It seems to be worded that it would, if this is the case, fast healing 8 every round :eek:

Blistering radiance isn't as good as I thought, it attracts a lot of attention and it only dazzles, which isn't that great, and kaav's blessing isn't great either, it just gets replaced by another spell. Now I just need a few transformations etc and I'm set.

I spent sometime playing around, here's an alternative build that's extremely evil but funny.
Pulse of hate, 2d6 will damage for everything in the area.
Blistering Radiance 2d6 fort damage and everything is dazzled.
Lions roar 1d8 per 2 levels fort damage and ally gains saves.
Slime wave, everything is subjected to the DMG rules for it reflex to save.
Negative energy area everything in 10ft suffers automatic 5 dmg a round.
Ring of Blades 1d6+10 to everything in 5ft.
Bleakness 1d6 to everything in 20ft, causes blindness.
That's 6d6 automatically, plus another 7d8 sonic, everything is slimed, dazzled, blinded, and suffers 5 damage a round. All of this is persist spell 24/7's, therefore the cycle goes on all day and all night, making you a blazing walking cleric of doom.

What do you guys think? This would be at level 15.

Xanatheus
02-11-2010, 07:20 PM
Freedom of Movement is Personal or Touch. It is persistable as a personal spell.

Recitation has an errata. I believe you're supposed to remove the line about enemies. If you're looking for a +3 luck bonus to YOUR AC then this is your spell.

Taking the Animal domain is easily done without any loss of feats. Just dip into PrC Comtemplative. At first level you get your choice of domains and you don't loose any spell capabilities.

"recitation *but only for the ac, since the saving throw would of easily been gained*."
Really? A +3 luck bonus to saves other than from Prayer...How do you do that?

Greater Vigor is not persistable. Lesser Mass Vigor and Vigorous Circle are the only vigor spells persistable.

Also Slime Wave has a range of close which is not persistable.
--- Merged from Double Post ---
Healthful Rest does not stack with any of the vigor spells. The key words in the first sentence is "natural healing rate". Vigor even though it is fast healing it is not natural healing. Sorry.

If you're looking for an evil build persist Consumptive Field or Greater Consumptive Field. Walk through a crowded market place and get a +2 unnamed Strength bonus for each creature you kill. Your CL will also rise but sadly only to level 22 (assuming you're playing a 15th level caster [15 + (15/2) = 22]

The ice axe spell won't do much damage from something immune to cold or anything at range.

iainukibolt
06-01-2010, 03:52 PM
I must admit this was the most powerful character I've ever made, able to auto rez self 2 times upon death. Which caused my next character to be a death delver cat woman like character for fun. Now I've made a tiny gnome whisper styled build for fun.

Though I made a tortle for the campaign, I kept getting references to tortle soup. Our party eventually died a day I missed due to a demi god and our mindbender, trying foolishly to mind control a god. Supposed while I wasn't there a demon killed me, though I doubt that would of happened if I was at the actual session. Anyways just to say, this build is a lot of fun, I was doing like 150 damage a turn easily, automatically hitting, and a tank machine, while still being a cleric, if anyone is interested it's a ton of fun.