Rules Question FoB + TWF(Feats)

[Jcosby]

First I want to apologize for resurrecting a very old topic but one that I can not find a definitive answer for. I have searched the web everywhere I can think of and I can’t find an “Official” answer in anything other then a forum post; although it is from a WotC employee.

I don’t want to debate if this can or can not be done I believe from the posts below by Andrew Finch that it in fact can be. What I’m asking for is there an official ruling on this some place I can use for players that I’m currently playing with that do not agree with me in that it in fact does work. (Stacking Flurry of Blows and TWF feats) Another reason I’m looking for something more concrete is that these posts from Andrew where from 2004 and WotC has been known to change their minds on things.

Thanks
JC

Following Posts come from this page.
http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-179686

WotC Andrew Finch
02-09-04, 07:52 PM
The 4th level Rogue has a BAB of +3.
The 4th level Monk has a BAB of +3.
The 4th level Rogue/4th level Monk has a BAB of +6/+1.

Pg 40 PHB Flurry of Blows: When doing so she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round.

The 4th level Rogue/4th level Monk has a Flurry of blows BAB of +4/+4/-1.

The chart provided in Table 3-10: The Monk is a quick reference for the player based on a single class monk of that level. If you are using a multiclass character you are going to have to calculate the flurry of blows based on the formula in the flurry of blows paragraph.



WotC Andrew Finch
02-09-04, 08:35 PM
The difference between 3.0 and 3.5 Monks BAB and Flurry of Blows comes in three ways ...

First, in 3.5 the monk now gets additional attacks based on her BAB just like all other characters. In 3.0 the monk had a special additional attack progression that only worked with unarmed and monk weapons, and did not interact with BAB from other classes.

Second, the penalty for flurry of blows decreases as the Monk advances in class levels. For example, if you had asked what the BAB of a 4th Level Rogue/5th Level Monk using flurry of blows was, the answer would have been +5/+5/+0, because while the BAB of the 4Rogue/5Monk is the same as the 4Rogue/4Monk, the penalty for flurry of blows has dropped to -1 at that level of Monk.

Third, the number of extra attacks for flurry of blows increases as the Monk advances in class levels too. At 11th level, the Monk gains 2 additional attacks at her highest BAB, instead of one. The penalty for using flurry of blows disappeared at 9th level Monk. For example, if you had asked what the BAB of a 4th level Rogue/11th Level Monk using flurry of blows was, the answer would have been +11/+11/+11/+6/+1.

In the end, we believe this change from 3.0 to 3.5 makes it easier to multiclass with Monk.


WotC Andrew Finch
02-13-04, 04:49 PM
First off, I would like to apologize for taking a couple of day to get back to this question. As you may know, we have several avenues that questions can come into Wizards of the Coast from, and different people who may end up answering them. Since this was not a cut and dry answer, I wanted to coordinate with Customer Service and Sage's advice at Dragon magazine before posting the answer to your question.

Since we have a staff member here, maybe he could shed some light on whether or not Monks can benefit from Flurrying and the TWF tree feats at the same time?

The simple answer is yes.

The long answer is that a monk with TWF can use both Flurry and TWF in a full attack. The penalties for doing so are added to all attacks and the additional attack gained from TWF only gets +1/2 Str bonus to damage.

Example: 4th level Monk, Str 14, BAB +3, TWF feat.
Atk: Unarmed +5 melee (1d8+2)
Flurry: 2 Unarmed +3 melee (1d8+2)
Flurry and TWF: 2 Unarmed +1 melee (1d8+2) and Unarmed +1 melee (1d8+1)

If you have a weapon, such as a sai, that is special monk weapon and you can flurry with it, you can only use that weapon as either as your primary hand attack or off-hand attack, but not both.

Example: same as above with a +1 Sai.
Flurry and TWF: 2 Unarmed +1 melee (1d8+2) and +1 Sai +2 melee (1d4+2)

or

Flurry and TWF: 2 +1 Sai +2 melee (1d4+3) and Unarmed +1 melee (1d8+1)

[DMMike]

Since you don't want to debate, I'll understand if you don't reply to this.

But a monk does NOT gain an extra attack from TWF and FoB at the same time. Why not? TWF doesn't grant an extra attack. It simply reduces penalties. And since a monk only has Flurry penalties up to 9th level, TWF loses this benefit at that level. (Since a monk can interchangably use a weapon-wielding hand or an open hand, it's pretty obvious that Flurries include his off-hand attack.)

However, Improved Two Weapon Fighting does grant an extra attack.
So knock yourself out with that one.

And by the way, if your players can't handle "because I'm the DM" as a reason, there are probably bigger problems to worry about.

[rabkala]

This was debated heavily for awhile on wotc optimzation boards. The final answer was yes they do, check the FaQ section. It says TWF stacks with FoB.

I will look it up again tomorrow, but that was my recollection.

[ignimbrite]

Jcosby, is this 3.0 or 3.5? and are the feats being combined for extra attacks or to lessen the penalties?

As far as I am aware, in 3.5, the FoB requires a full round action which negates the ability to use TWF, which is also used as part of a full round action to attack, no? (actually that the TWF as a full round action might just be how my group plays that feat).

Oh and DMMike the PHB in 3.5 specifically states in the TWF feat description that it grants an extra attack: "You can fight with a weapon in each hand. You can make one attack each round with the second weapon"

[DMMike]

ignim, you're reading the description, not the benefit. The description is more for flavor and summary.

And Flurry of Blows must be conducted as a full attack action, not a full round action. Which, to me, leaves open the possibility of extra attacks.

[nijineko]

the answer is yes.

these two feats can be mixed. and there is an official answer to your question. go to the wotc website and download the latest version of the main FAQ. text-searchable pdf file, zipped. it's under the questions concerning monks.

basic idea. flurry of blows does not require that a monk's hands be used. it specifically states that any body part can be used. so that includes, head, feet, elbows, knees, shins, and so forth. thus you use your hands with your weapons for the two weapon fighting, and the rest of your body for the flurry of blows. the catch: (you knew there had to be one) ALL PENALTIES STACK. so the penalties from two weapon fighting, and the flurry of blows (if any) stack. also, you are going to wind up with some secondary attack penalties. and all the penalties apply to ALL of the attacks. so you typically see a -7 or more to try and get this many attacks.

see the faq for details.

this also applies to shuriken and rapid shot combined with flurry of blows.

and before you get any ideas, it specifies that this concept DOES NOT work with natural attacks. although i seem to recall some feat or alternate class feature that does allow natural attacks to combine with flurry of blows. but i can't remember where i saw it. ^^



and incidentally, two weapon fighting does not specifically grant an extra attack. it allows one to make an extra attack with the off hand at a lower penalty than normal. anyone can attack with two weapons, but you get a -10/-6 primary/secondary if you try it without the feat. having the feat reduces the penalty to -4/-4. having the off-hand weapon be light reduces either of the above penalties by an additional 2 each.

[ignimbrite]

and incidentally, two weapon fighting does not specifically grant an extra attack. it allows one to make an extra attack with the off hand at a lower penalty than normal. anyone can attack with two weapons, but you get a -10/-6 primary/secondary if you try it without the feat. having the feat reduces the penalty to -4/-4. having the off-hand weapon be light reduces either of the above penalties by an additional 2 each.

Oh right. I just never even consider an off hand attack unless I have TWF so I guess over the last several years it has just come to mean the same thing for me. Good to know though - if you can only hit the boss by rolling a natural 20 then you may as well do it with the off hand as well, it's not going to make matters any worse.

[DMMike]

Darn official rulings...

I highly recommend house-ruling this one out, since the intent of FoB is to give monks TWF for free.

Nice detective work, nijineko.

[nijineko]

thank you. as for myself, i'd be inclined to allow them to take it. the penalties they will incur for getting all the extra attacks, which apply to every single attack they make, twf and fob... are so large that they simply won't hit the big bad villains. it'll make mincemeat of mooks, and it sounds impressive, (and likely would look impressive if animated...) but then i'm not too worried about the mooks. =D they're just there to buy the bad guys a few rounds to lay down some more serious smack, and to harry the pc's if they go for the big bad guys.

besides, making the player keep track of the bookkeeping is almost a bigger disencouragement than anything else you could say. =D

[Jcosby]

and incidentally, two weapon fighting does not specifically grant an extra attack. it allows one to make an extra attack with the off hand at a lower penalty than normal. Anyone can attack with two weapons, but you get a -10/-6 primary/secondary if you try it without the feat. Having the feat reduces the penalty to -4/-4. Having the off-hand weapon be light reduces either of the above penalties by an additional 2 each.


Yes, this is the way I have believed it to work from the beginning. Any Joe Player can put two weapons in their hands and attack twice. You just get crazy negatives to your attacks. (-6/-10, I believe off the top of my head.) When you take TWF that gets reduced to -2/-2 which is a pretty substantial reduction. FoB's also has a negative which carries over to all other attacks until your next turn.. So that affects your attacks with TWF and AOO's etc.

After running the numbers for a level 1 through level 20 Monk (Using Pathfinders Beta rule set for Monks) I have come to the conclusion that you would be gimping your Monk by taking TWF, ITWF and GTWF in conjunction with FoB. The penalties to attack with FoB do go away which helps relieve some of the negatives but the over all penalties are just too much in the end and they make your To-Hit roll to low at the higher levels.

There are two new feats to Pathfinder(Beta) that do make this build interesting. Vital Strike and Improved Vital Strike. You can drop 1 or 2 of your lowest +hit attacks to gain extra damage (dlb or triple your damage dice) on each successful attack. Bonus damage is not multiplied.

Now on the other hand, having 8 attacks around just using your base attacks and the (I,G)TWF feat line along with feats such as Spring Attack you could be a Disarming, Tripping, Bull Rushing fool. With the new CMB rules for Pathfinder (Beta) Monk's with Improved Feats (Disarm, Trip etc) could cause havoc on the battlefield for NPCs.

So, after reading all of the posts by WotC and the FAQ I have come to the conclusion that it is indeed possible to combine the effects of FoB and TWF but it's just not useful once you apply all of the negative modifiers to your To-Hit rolls. Also, Vital Strike and Improved Vital Strike come too late in the game to really make an impact. (Also a side note, Imp Vital Strike requires a +16 BAB which straight Monks never achieve.) If I were ever to create a Monk with the TWF Feat(s) I would design him to be a combat tactician and not a damage dealer. I would use my abilities to set up flanks and help rogues gain combat advantage so they could do sneak attacks more often, by tripping targets and setting up flanks. I think this character could be a very fun character to play.

Jeff


And by the way, if your players can't handle "because I'm the DM" as a reason, there are probably bigger problems to worry about.

This has nothing to do with “My Players” or me being a DM. This all has to do with me making sure that a design that I was planning on creating would be legal so I wouldn’t have to change my character or make a character based on an illegal rule concept.

[nijineko]

i'm with you on the "legality" issue. i prefer to have a by-the-book character whenever possible, resorting to custom builds only as a last resort.

[Jcosby]

i'm with you on the "legality" issue. i prefer to have a by-the-book character whenever possible, resorting to custom builds only as a last resort.


I only made that statement because of the comment from DMMike. I'm not making this character to play in a game I'm running or a game any friends are running. If I were, I would just ask them "Hey is this cool?" If they are the DM it's up to them either way. This character was going to be for the Pathfinder Society a system that is going to run like LG. Since I would be playing with many different DM's in many different games, I wanted to make sure it was 100% legal so I didn't have to argue about it every session.

In the end, I've scrapped the idea. I can't quite come up with a concenpt I like. I don't want to just be another 7 attacks around for massive damage character. If I wanted that I'd make a Half-Orc Barb. Also if this was a campaign with a DM I knew, I'd probably make the Terror Monk that runs amok in combat tripping and disarming everyone in sight. In a "public" LG style game that would just bog everything down and those games are limited by time.. so not really a good idea..

JC

[nijineko]

very wise of you. living campaigns are rather time sensitive, so that might be best. still, i would love to see that combo with a master thrower and rapid shot. ^^

[ErnestWerth]

HI,

very wise of you. living campaigns are rather time sensitive, so that might be best. still, i would love to see that combo with a master thrower and rapid shot.:lol::lol::lol: