The Double/Countless Lives of Dragons

[DMMike]

I consider dragons (at least in 3E) THE planned encounter creature; they can't be randomly dropped in.

This is for lots of reasons, some are in-game, some are metagame. For example:
In-game: many dragons are old enough to remember three kingdoms ago
Metagame: they have a game mechanic to simulate the fear they cause
In-game: some dragons are probably the smartest creatures on the planet
Metagame: dragons have multiple attacks, breath weapons, spells, SLAs, and fear effects
In-game: old dragons are effectively armageddon-causing creatures
Metagame: a dragon worth its CR could require several sheets of notes

How do you handle these issues, and what sort of role does this cause dragons to play in your game?

[Dimthar]

See Thread: Monsters Boot Camp: Dragon

The topic is how to effectively use a given Monster (in this case Dragons) so you don't actually get lost with all his powers.

This has been a concern of mine for all multiple-attack/spell-ring users high INT monsters.

Saluti!

[nijineko]

a search doesn't turn up that thread. do you have a link, pray tell?

arguing the other side of that horde, i've used dragons as random encounters on a fairly regular basis. most of the time the pcs never know. the rest of the time, the dragon has an interest other than food or slaughter. usually. ^^

[DMMike]

See Thread: Monsters Boot Camp: Dragon

The topic is how to effectively use a given Monster (in this case Dragons) so you don't actually get lost with all his powers.

This has been a concern of mine for all multiple-attack/spell-ring users high INT monsters.


The other thread was collecting dust. And at a quick glance, it was a prolonged debate over whether or not dragons can use traps. To which I'd say yes, but it depends on the dragon. A smaller, less intelligent dragon would be pretty proud of itself for rigging a collapsing floor, or giant net. But an older, smarter dragon would only use magic traps that don't hinder its hunting patterns, and possibly ego would lead it to not use traps at all.

nijineko- I'd use smaller dragons randomly, since they have much less at their disposal, and might not even have spellcasting ability. But if you're going to hand out triple standard treasure, and possibly some good XPs with it, a dragon encounter should be Challenging (with a capital C).

My most pressing issue with dragons is the super intelligence. INT 16-20 is like fighting a polymorphed, resurrected Einstein. 21+ would be trying to fight (argue with?) Einstein, Bobby Fisher, Michelangelo, and Ben Franklin rolled into one.

It's easy to blow that stat off, because it's only a bonus to spellcasting and INT skills, right? Not if you want to be fair to the dragon. Uber smart (and possibly wise) dragons will immediately see through player disguises, diversions, and tactics, if magic hasn't done this already. They can probably figure out a character's weakness (AC, stats, or saves) by looking at them. Illusions? Forget those. Any behavior a player would think up would have an obvious flaw to a smart dragon, granting Will saves as soon as possible.

The short solution is that the best defense against a supergenius dragon is a supergenius PC. Otherwise, the PCs better have some good dragon bait.

[cplmac]

Not all encounters with a dragon has to be in combat, like nijineko points out. Some of them would be smart enough to know that while they may ultimately win the battle, they would take some serious damage doing so. Still others may be willing to supply some information in exchange for something that is worth their time and knowledge.

Dragon: I know how to find the entrance to the hidden cavern you are looking for.

Party Leader: We would be really grateful and be on our way and out of your hunting area if you would tell us.

Dragon: Maybe if you give me something in payment for the knowledge.

Party Leader: What would we have that would be of use to a dragon?

Dragon: I will tell you how to find the entrance if you leave me 2 of your horses as a snack.

Actually used that one before.

[nijineko]

i'm fond of the "blank check" exchanges with dragons. They will bestow a favor... for a price. and depending on how much the pcs want the thing in question.... the dragon might exchange it for an unspecified favor in the future, if the players really don't have anything to swing the deal. (plot hook!) ^^

especially if there is a time limit on the exchange... nothing like the pc trawling through the dungeon and the time is ticking down for them to get back to the dragon and fulfill their part of the deal.

[tesral]

I do little i the way of unplanned encounters so it's kind of a moot point.

How I use dragons? First, they are not color coded fro your convenience. The MM gives the tendencies of the dragons, not the final word on behavior. People have encountered rapacious metallics and beneficial chromatics.

I plan them, dragon encounters are rare. The party recently had perhaps their one and one dragon encounter for the whole campaign.

[DMMike]

Negotiating with dragons sounds tough, because you'd have to have a clear idea of the dragon's motivations (as DM) to make it believable. Pain avoidance and survival probably rank pretty high on a dragon's list of priorities, but so does acquiring magic items. With a dragon's hit points, the "pain" threshold probably sets in pretty late.

I'll definitely pick up dragon encounters as the levels wear on. Probably encounters with the same dragon, or brood.

Color coding: I don't have metallic or red dragons. Dragons are colored by natural selection, not sexual selection.

[nijineko]

i tend to change up the stats of the dragons, and i play the genetics card. most dragons are mixtures... and they don't exclusively mate with their own color either. plus they are the product of their upbringing and own choices. not iron clad alignments.

[DMMike]

i tend to change up the stats of the dragons, and i play the genetics card. most dragons are mixtures... and they don't exclusively mate with their own color either. plus they are the product of their upbringing and own choices. not iron clad alignments.

So what do you get when you mix a blue and a red dragon? :o

My dragons will typically end up being neutral, leaning toward evil for self-preservation or good to keep from ticking off the armies of humanoids. Now that I think about it, even the goodish ones are going to be way too proud to be good all the time...

[Thriondel Half-Elven]

i've used dragons as both. random and planned. The great Hjalrin and some little green dragons. it just depend on what you want. with Hjalrin i wanted story so i planned. with the greens i just rolled randomly in the wilderness and got them.

[nijineko]

So what do you get when you mix a blue and a red dragon? :o ....


if i'm keeping it simple and not breaking out the genetics square and rolling on that, then that particular combo would result in plasma for a breath weapon.



and for those interested, see this thread (http://www.penandpapergames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7334)for an example of how one can randomly toss dragons into a campaign.

[tesral]

So what do you get when you mix a blue and a red dragon? :o

Who is what? I have a simple rule that solves the whole problem. Color is gender linked. If Daddy is Blue and Mommy is Red then all the male kids will be blue and all the female kids will be red.

Saves breaking out the color wheel and getting weird with breath weapons.

[nijineko]

but then where do purple dragons come from?

;D

as i mentioned, the above mentioned is only one possible result, and that depends on which system of combination i feel like using for that campaign. i have several, ranging from simple, like yours, to not so.

[tesral]

but then where do purple dragons come from?

Rolling in the wine vat.

[cplmac]

So what do you get when you mix a blue and a red dragon? :o
...


A purple dragon. Hmm, now what would be the breath weapon?

[DMMike]

C'mon guys. When you mix a red :mad: and blue :biggrin: dragon, you get Barney. :p
Maybe my timing was off...

Maybe I'm the only one who's deathly afraid of Dragon Warrior's Dragonlord, but do you let powerful dragons walk the earth in the shapes of men? (4E players, look away. There's shapechanging going on here.) If for no other reason, it's probably a good way for a dragon to absorb humanoid culture and learn how they can best be exploited. But an even better reason is to be able to walk right to the middle of a castle before taking dragon-shape and decimating everyone's Thursdays.