Over Powered PCs

[Thriondel Half-Elven]

What do you do when you make the mistake of giving the PCs too much power early on?

I did this in my very first campaign and I ended up fabricating an adventure in which they died and became lesser deities.

Did i do the right thing?

[tesral]

What do you do when you make the mistake of giving the PCs too much power early on?

I did this in my very first campaign and I ended up fabricating an adventure in which they died and became lesser deities.

Did i do the right thing?

Hard to say with that little information. All I can say is everyone does it sooner or later, usually sooner. If the players where OK with the outcomes you did good.

[Stormhound]

"Right thing" is pretty heavily dependent upon the personalities of players and GM. What works for one group might not with another.

Another option might've been to discuss the problem with them, to see if they might willingly power down a bit, once you explained how you felt. This would be a lot more likely to work with more mature and/or roleplaying-oriented groups, where with powergamers it'd probably go over like the proverbial lead balloon.

You could also have encouraged retirement of the "overpowered" PCs of a more voluntary nature, whether that retirement be in the game world or the game afterworld.

[Thriondel Half-Elven]

Hard to say with that little information. All I can say is everyone does it sooner or later, usually sooner. If the players where OK with the outcomes you did good.

They were ok with it. I think because it was there first time ever playing. We started a new one in the Forgotten Realms the very next session and everyone was fine.

[Thriondel Half-Elven]

"Right thing" is pretty heavily dependent upon the personalities of players and GM. What works for one group might not with another.

Another option might've been to discuss the problem with them, to see if they might willingly power down a bit, once you explained how you felt. This would be a lot more likely to work with more mature and/or roleplaying-oriented groups, where with powergamers it'd probably go over like the proverbial lead balloon.

You could also have encouraged retirement of the "overpowered" PCs of a more voluntary nature, whether that retirement be in the game world or the game afterworld.

those are some good alternatives. I was an inexperienced DM (and still am) so i went with what i first thought of

[Tamerath]

They were ok with it. I think because it was there first time ever playing. We started a new one in the Forgotten Realms the very next session and everyone was fine.

Back in my high school days I made a classic DM mistake of handing out too many magic items. It's really easy to do...The good thing is you are all starting out and it's pretty cool of your players that when you started a new campaign that they understood. I say overall..mission successful. Wish you all luck in your new game.

[drewshi]

What do you do when you make the mistake of giving the PCs too much power early on?

I did this in my very first campaign and I ended up fabricating an adventure in which they died and became lesser deities.

Did i do the right thing?

It's interesting that you ask that. I'm actually giving the group too much power on purpose at the moment. We have always played a campaign that leaned more towards good alignment, but they decided they wanted to be evil. The problem is they really can't handle evil. When one player went all out with his nastiness, the other players were turned off and killed him in disgust. Since then, they have committed many acts that have called for alignment checks. In the meantime, I've been having them discover these rings of power, ala the Mandarin from Marvel Comics. The player using the rings is getting a kick out of the power, but he's been reserved about using it so far. The power has saved them from some sticky situations so far, but the other players have been sending me emails asking about how far this power is going to go. I want them to question their alignment and to see if this one character will sacrifice his power for the greater good. I want them to make the switch to good on their own even if they realize that there will be penalties for shift.

As for your own situation, I agree with others have said here. The bottom line is were your players satisfied with the outcome? They came back to play some more, you learned a lesson from the experience, thus everyone wins.

Have fun.

[nijineko]

What do you do when you make the mistake of giving the PCs too much power early on?

I did this in my very first campaign and I ended up fabricating an adventure in which they died and became lesser deities.

Did i do the right thing?

your solution was one of many possible right ones. as has been pointed out by others, if everyone enjoyed it, then you've nothing to worry about. it might be fun to have their old characters show up as patrons of the new ones someday, or something.

for future reference, there is always the options of challenging the pcs with larger battles, having one or two combatants in an encounter specialize in sundering objects, hitting them with an mdj (disjunction). there is always the subtle option of the wandering magic-item trader... who exchanges items for, ah, other items. ^^ have to make a profit, after all. not that all of the items available for trade are working perfectly.... the last is a great way to introduce wacky items that'll have the players talking about it for a long time afterwards.

[Thriondel Half-Elven]

Thanks everyone. Unfortunately i haven't been with that group for a couple of years now. But i just wanted to check so i don't make the same mistake with my new group. Not sure how they would handle it.

[mrken]

Hey, I wouldn't worry about it, you have plenty of new mistakes to make. We all make mistakes if we are honest. You can talk to your players if you do, but generally it is so obvious I just move on. May apologize to my players but sometimes it is so obvious I don't need to.

[Thriondel Half-Elven]

Hey, I wouldn't worry about it, you have plenty of new mistakes to make. We all make mistakes if we are honest. You can talk to your players if you do, but generally it is so obvious I just move on. May apologize to my players but sometimes it is so obvious I don't need to.

ya there's always many more mistakes. but it should be alright. i will just try to not give too much.

Now that i think back on it. my problem may have been that i was new to roleplaying myself and there was all this cool stuff in front of me and my players would probably never see it. so naturally i showed it to them through the game.

[mrken]

Fair enough, but I generally try to keep as much of that cool stuff away from my players. lol

[Thriondel Half-Elven]

Fair enough, but I generally try to keep as much of that cool stuff away from my players. lol

i don't mind giving it to them. but i am going to be more cautious. if they want a really powerful wizards spellbook. it is definately going to be guarded by some wicked awesome monsters/NPCs. but if they can think of a way to get past them and secure the book. then it's there's. even if it makes them over powered.

but i won't make the mistake of GIVING it to them.

[mrken]

lol I like to make they learn the spell. Even though they have the book, they still don't know how to cast it. A second level of protection for the GM. lol The monster was the first. The rogue thief will be the third.

[Thriondel Half-Elven]

lol I like to make they learn the spell. Even though they have the book, they still don't know how to cast it. A second level of protection for the GM. lol The monster was the first. The rogue thief will be the third.

i like that idea. . . rogue thief. hmmm

[nijineko]

there is always the cursed spellbook.... anyone who has touched the spellbook has a mark placed on them which causes them to be tracked relentlessly by these monsters that just won't stop coming after them. they can kill one, only to be caught by another a few days later. and on and on and on, until they return the book to it's place. the curse just keeps summoning the monsters, each more powerful than the last.

the real kicker? the mage in question had a backup book (or books) and has already reset everything with another book-and changed things up a bit to boot. so once they finally win through all the new more difficult setup, they find that the pedastal they need to put the book on is occupied by another book, with a note that "all" the traps have been reset.... including a curse on the new book!!!

i usually have the mage forgive them if they think of approaching the mage... in exchange for a few "favors of service". ^^

("you know, i have this rival, and i'd really like a look at his spellbook....")

[Thriondel Half-Elven]

there is always the cursed spellbook.... anyone who has touched the spellbook has a mark placed on them which causes them to be tracked relentlessly by these monsters that just won't stop coming after them. they can kill one, only to be caught by another a few days later. and on and on and on, until they return the book to it's place. the curse just keeps summoning the monsters, each more powerful than the last.

the real kicker? the mage in question had a backup book (or books) and has already reset everything with another book-and changed things up a bit to boot. so once they finally win through all the new more difficult setup, they find that the pedastal they need to put the book on is occupied by another book, with a note that "all" the traps have been reset.... including a curse on the new book!!!

i usually have the mage forgive them if they think of approaching the mage... in exchange for a few "favors of service". ^^

("you know, i have this rival, and i'd really like a look at his spellbook....")

that's a good hook. when they finish the cursed spell book adventure they are "hired" my the mage to do his dirty work.

[DMMike]

What do you do when you make the mistake of giving the PCs too much power early on?

I did this in my very first campaign and I ended up fabricating an adventure in which they died and became lesser deities.

Did i do the right thing?

Lesser deity is a status that no player should be playing - it's like asking someone to roleplay a grand chessmaster, and by the way, what's the next move he would make? Failing that, only long-time players should be playing lesser deities.

Giving the PCs too much power sounds like an easy fix though. Make them live with it. I see a variety of outcomes:
- their abuse of too much power causes popular resistance
- having too much power causes too much desire to steal that power
or
- the power withers over time and becomes typical

Honestly, it's a good roleplaying opportunity to teach players that power is a dangerous thing. If they handle it well, go ahead and skip some learning levels. If they don't, show them what happens to those who don't use their power responsibly.

[Thriondel Half-Elven]

Lesser deity is a status that no player should be playing - it's like asking someone to roleplay a grand chessmaster, and by the way, what's the next move he would make? Failing that, only long-time players should be playing lesser deities.

I apollogize. I guess i wasn't very clear. when i said that they died and became lesser deities. I meant that the campaign was over and there old characters became the deities.

All we did was take the deity stat blocks in the PHB and edited them to fit their old characters. and the chars personality, etc.

so when we started the new campaign they could choose the new deities if they wanted. and could worship their old chars.

[nijineko]

that's a good hook. when they finish the cursed spell book adventure they are "hired" my the mage to do his dirty work.

especially if his "rival" is the one who actually hired them in the first place! (secretly or not, as the case may be.) ^^

[Thriondel Half-Elven]

especially if his "rival" is the one who actually hired them in the first place! (secretly or not, as the case may be.) ^^

ah! yes the old flip-flop. the orignal mage wanted the cursed spell book to "dispose" of it and now the very evil they were trying to defeat (though they didn't know he was evil) is the mage who is giving them quests.

i like that.

[nijineko]

sometimes the "old" is good, especially with a "younger" group whom has never heard of the old stuff. ^^

[tesral]

Everything old is new again.

One comment. I don't like the "thief" option on taking over powered items. Take backs annoy the Hell out of me as a player and I won't do them as a DM.

[Thriondel Half-Elven]

sometimes the "old" is good, especially with a "younger" group whom has never heard of the old stuff. ^^

exactly and my group is "young".

i liked what we just did. . .

one of us said something and then the other added something and then we went back and forth and BOOM! an adventure idea. with more than one DMs input.

we should do that more often

[nijineko]

Everything old is new again.

One comment. I don't like the "thief" option on taking over powered items. Take backs annoy the Hell out of me as a player and I won't do them as a DM.

speaking of.... do refresh my memory as to what you are speaking of? the use magic device skill?

[tesral]

speaking of.... do refresh my memory as to what you are speaking of? the use magic device skill?

lol I like to make they learn the spell. Even though they have the book, they still don't know how to cast it. A second level of protection for the GM. lol The monster was the first. The rogue thief will be the third.

Unless I am mistaken here the "third" option is to have a thief steal the items. A take back by the DM. That is what of I speak.

[ronpyatt]

I'm not a big fan of taking powerful items away from players, but if the items are causing trouble for your game, there are ways to work around it ...


You can drop little side effects into using the items to show that something strange might be happening with them. The PC's voice changes (deeper or higher pitch) temporarily.
Depending on your group, you can have some of those magic items tainted with a mild curse that builds up as time goes by, or when entering a place that "activates" the curse within. (Some party member notices the wielders eyes briefly glow red.)
Or the more they use an item the stronger the curse gets. (The users notices someone following the party, but no one really is.)
A curse doesn't have to be strong; just enough to make it less desirable. (A particular smell creeps up every couple of uses.)
Also, magic items are beacons that attract monsters. (What power hungry monster doesn't want more power?)
Perhaps a creature is questing for one of the magic items. After defeating the monster seeking the item, maybe a minion gets away and blabs to the world that the item exists.
Start a couple of quests that try different tactics to take the item away. Don't really take the item away, but just make it that much more desirable.
Discover the curse, and have a quest to help them remove the curse from the item. (and maybe reduce the power of the item a bit in the process)
Have an item's power fade in strength during a certain time of day (or night) and increase during other times.

Not sure if any of these suggestions would help, but I've used some of them to help me fill in the story gaps created by uber-powerful magic items.

[Thriondel Half-Elven]

I'm not a big fan of taking powerful items away from players, but if the items are causing trouble for your game, there are ways to work around it ...


You can drop little side effects into using the items to show that something strange might be happening with them. The PC's voice changes (deeper or higher pitch) temporarily.
Depending on your group, you can have some of those magic items tainted with a mild curse that builds up as time goes by, or when entering a place that "activates" the curse within. (Some party member notices the wielders eyes briefly glow red.)
Or the more they use an item the stronger the curse gets. (The users notices someone following the party, but no one really is.)
A curse doesn't have to be strong; just enough to make it less desirable. (A particular smell creeps up every couple of uses.)
Also, magic items are beacons that attract monsters. (What power hungry monster doesn't want more power?)
Perhaps a creature is questing for one of the magic items. After defeating the monster seeking the item, maybe a minion gets away and blabs to the world that the item exists.
Start a couple of quests that try different tactics to take the item away. Don't really take the item away, but just make it that much more desirable.
Discover the curse, and have a quest to help them remove the curse from the item. (and maybe reduce the power of the item a bit in the process)
Have an item's power fade in strength during a certain time of day (or night) and increase during other times.
Not sure if any of these suggestions would help, but I've used some of them to help me fill in the story gaps created by uber-powerful magic items.

Those are some really clever ideas. fixes the problem and generates adventure

[DMMike]

I would like to advocate the Thief Take Back and further endorse the Thief As General Nuisance.

Put yourself in a thieves' shoes:
- PCs don't typically secure their belongings well
- PCs carry around WAY too much treasure and goods
- PCs keep their wealth in stealable form more often than property or investments
- PCs assume that bad things happen to other people, but not themselves
There are a couple snags:
- PCs are more likely to stab you without demanding surrender
- PCs have a respectable amount of magical help

The taker-back doesn't need to be a thief either. Why wouldn't an orc warrior, facing a group of PCs who have more magical power than they know how to handle, just try to make a couple disarm rolls and take off with an easy victory?

I think it's been mentioned, but the Take Back doesn't need to be the end of an item. It ought to be the beginning of a beautiful, if not coy, friendship (pursuit).

[mrken]

The thief stealing things is not so bad, not as bad as letting a PC die, both of which I have done. Why make the party immune to thieves, you don't make the world immune to the party?

As for taking back a powerful item, well, I have never done that yet. Mainly because I don't give out epic level items very often. In fact a faintly magic item in my game is pretty powerful in the world I run. Some items do have a simple magic bonus like a +1 to hit, but I generally make my items have a bit more flair. I like the sword that will keep the user warm in cold climates, or the ring that will help one float, as opposed to the +1 sword of poke or +1 ring of protection from pokes. Even a curse that kind of sucks but they don't want to get rid of it because it give a plus two in combat.

Hey, we all learn, don't give the PC's an item you don't want to face every week. :lol: That is a lesson that is hard to learn without making it, unless you have us in your corner. Another reason I like this forum.

[Thriondel Half-Elven]

glad i do have you guys in my corner.

[rabkala]

Everything old is new again.

Except Tesral

[Thriondel Half-Elven]

Except Tesral

Hahaha. too funny. with age come wisdom, and we know tesrel has wisdom. Oodles of it!

you know we like you Tesral

[tesral]

Except Tesral

Hahaha. too funny. with age come wisdom, and we know tesrel has wisdom. Oodles of it!

you know we like you Tesral

Wisdom is arthritis?

"It's amazing how much the wisdom of the ages resembles just being too tired." R. Heinlein.

[Thriondel Half-Elven]

Wisdom is arthritis?

"It's amazing how much the wisdom of the ages resembles just being too tired." R. Heinlein.

i have arthritis too and i'm only twenty :(

[DMMike]

Speaking of over-powered PCs-
Do any DMs give the players everything they ask for, and then beat them even harder (with above-average enemies) for it?

My personal experience with this is that I have yet to meet the player who's happy to take the standard array for ability scores. The assumption, I'm guessing, is that a character is useless unless most of its ability scores are above 14. From my perspective, this means that most antagonists are also useless unless their ability scores are mostly above 14. Suddenly the opposing army's soldiers are all muscular, smart, compelling, and really, really, extremely, good-looking.

[tesral]

i have arthritis too and i'm only twenty :(

I'm sorry, really. Rheumatoid I would assume. My Mother has it. Mine comes for abusing your joints.

[Thriondel Half-Elven]

I'm sorry, really. Rheumatoid I would assume. My Mother has it. Mine comes for abusing your joints.

mine too. even though i am only 20 i have worked construction since i was 14-15. and we had a wood burning stove so i chopped alot of wood.

even with the arthritis i don't feel wise!:o

[tesral]

mine too. even though i am only 20 i have worked construction since i was 14-15. and we had a wood burning stove so i chopped alot of wood.

even with the arthritis i don't feel wise!:o

But you feel deeply (OUCH!) Taint the years, it's the mileage.

[mrken]

even with the arthritis i don't feel wise!:o

That in itself is a bit of wisdom.

[Thriondel Half-Elven]

But you feel deeply (OUCH!) Taint the years, it's the mileage.

yes these hands have too many miles for there year. there are only 87's

That in itself is a bit of wisdom.

too true

[rabkala]

Speaking of over-powered PCs-
Do any DMs give the players everything they ask for, and then beat them even harder (with above-average enemies) for it?

My personal experience with this is that I have yet to meet the player who's happy to take the standard array for ability scores. The assumption, I'm guessing, is that a character is useless unless most of its ability scores are above 14. From my perspective, this means that most antagonists are also useless unless their ability scores are mostly above 14. Suddenly the opposing army's soldiers are all muscular, smart, compelling, and really, really, extremely, good-looking.
I happily have given players great ability scores and many extras with the caveat that the enemy is also 'above average'. I would never give them everything they want, especially magic. You have to be able to balance things, and it can be a slippery slope. It makes players happy to have all 18's or the tough new race/template in a supplement. Just make sure you remain in control as the DM. It's 'Survival of the fittest' in the monster world as well.

Beware losing balance/control, they could be calling you Monty Haul soon !

[Thriondel Half-Elven]

I happily have given players great ability scores and many extras with the caveat that the enemy is also 'above average'. I would never give them everything they want, especially magic. You have to be able to balance things, and it can be a slippery slope. It makes players happy to have all 18's or the tough new race/template in a supplement. Just make sure you remain in control as the DM. It's 'Survival of the fittest' in the monster world as well.

Beware losing balance/control, they could be calling you Monty Haul soon !

true. but i made the mistake of giving too much

[DMMike]

Oooh the viciousness...How about giving the players too much power, and then providing only easy opponents?

"When you decapitate the ogre wizard with your boomeranging, vorpal, +3 greatsword, the unscathed ogre hunting party flees in terror. Just like the last two."

By the way, what good is a pantheon if there aren't any gods of mischief and fate to torment those who have too much luck?

[Thriondel Half-Elven]

Oooh the viciousness...How about giving the players too much power, and then providing only easy opponents?

"When you decapitate the ogre wizard with your boomeranging, vorpal, +3 greatsword, the unscathed ogre hunting party flees in terror. Just like the last two."

By the way, what good is a pantheon if there aren't any gods of mischief and fate to torment those who have too much luck?

yes, like sheogorath in TES oblivion as an example. funny guy. i think mischief if fun:biggrin: