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View Full Version : Shadowrun 4e vs. 1e-3e



MortonStromgal
08-08-2008, 10:22 AM
Who has opinions, I of course am full of them :lol:

I started late 1e and really cut my teeth on 2e, I ran 3e for 2 years and did not like 4e when it came out but now I may have started changing that opinion.

The more I play with the 4e character creation the less it annoys me, though it still feels like GURPS to me. Things I have noticed on 400BP builds is I always take max cash and I always run out (I have not created any magical types yet). The availability seams pretty good for giving you decent but not awesome gear. The Edges and Flaws (or whatever they are call) bug me. I really don't like flaws giving you points at creation I really prefure them giving you XP if it causes problems in a session ala nWOD (and Nobils I hear but I have never read it). I have a hard time remembering that I don't need skills at 6 anymore to be effective if I have a decent attribute score. It really seams like high attributes are the way to go with 1 to 3 pts in a skill at most to start. Edge is really important in the game, perhaps too important making me want at leased and Edge of 3 but 6 is ideal.

praksis
08-08-2008, 12:59 PM
Haven't played 4th yet, and didn't get to really dive into 2nd & 3rd too much (only a couple campains for each) but from going through the exercise of creating a character I do like it quite a bit. Took awhile to get used to the point buy, but like that as well now.

I've only made 2 thus far though along similar concepts...regular ex-corp rigger & technomancer rigger. My first impression of the regular rigger was it seemed too easy to have some really nasty abilities right off the bat. Could be my smaller amount of experience with SR, but they just seemed too good (most programs near max, very good drones, etc). The technomancer definitely has a lot more room to grow (with the added bonus that the concept seems far more fun)

Most likely still won't be able to play at all till October, but for now I give it a thumbs up and to me is seems each edition of SR so far has been an improvement over the last.

darelf
08-08-2008, 01:32 PM
I haven't been particularly impressed with the rules, but I find it much better than previous versions.

It is certainly playable. And I feel it is more playable, and more amenable to my sort of seat-of-the-pants style of GMing than the previous versions were.

My players enjoyed the short campaign we played with 4th. So that's something, I suppose.

I think if you enjoyed ShadowRun at all, 4th edition is just a better version of that, and is well worth the update....

MortonStromgal
08-19-2008, 05:40 PM
I figured out something that really bugs me in 4e, only 1 social attribute. It went from being 6:1 to 8:1. I feel this is a step in the wrong direction. 8:2 would have been better they could have left reaction derived and added another social attribute.

trechriron
08-25-2008, 10:05 PM
I like the improvements but frankly, overall, I haven't like any of the systems in any addition. Just not my style. I, however own a pile of SR books because I LOVE the setting idea. Most of the books are style and fluff so porting over my current RPG fav is generally a breeze.

:biggrin:

Freejack
08-25-2008, 10:28 PM
I figured out something that really bugs me in 4e, only 1 social attribute. It went from being 6:1 to 8:1. I feel this is a step in the wrong direction. 8:2 would have been better they could have left reaction derived and added another social attribute.

What sort of additional social attribute? I think the skills have quite a few social types and they're just added to Charisma to give you the ability to tweak it a little better.

I ran 1st and 2nd for short periods but really liked the setting. I played in 3rd for 6 months or so and started getting into it before I had to leave (smoking GM and I couldn't take it any more). I've been running 4th for just about a year now and it seems to be just right for my style of GMing.

Easier to hand-wave stuff and have it still work great until I the hang of all the dice pools. I'm just now getting full control of hacking so I think I'm pretty much up to speed on the general part of the game. The con on Friday will be throwing me into the deep end though :)

Carl

MortonStromgal
08-26-2008, 09:52 AM
I like the improvements but frankly, overall, I haven't like any of the systems in any addition.

They have all had there... shall we say colorful flaws but I think they work starting at 2e on pretty well if you house rule by simplification.


What sort of additional social attribute?

I would have liked to see Manipulation (or something similar). When I think of Charisma I think of first impression/ general attitude, I don't think Machiavellian politics.

THIS IS NOT DONE TILL THIS LINE IS GONE

Mechanical Improvements with 4e
Sorcery - While the lack of needing to buy your spells at a force is not anything like previous editions and it may break the mold, it is far more playable and I say 3e players should do the same. My simple system is divide your starting spell points by 5 and that is the number of spells you get. Set the cost for a new spell at 10,000 nuyen.
Spirits - While still tough a mundane character can actually hurt it. 3e players should treat combat as a standard combat test rather than a willpower test.
Matrix - Hurray for a single node! I've been doing this since 2e but they finally followed suit. 3e players should just design one node to go against.

Mechanical Oddities with 4e (I call them oddities because perhaps the designers wanted it that way, I just don't understand why)
Character Creation vs Advancement Attributes and Group Skills both cost 10 BP at character creation but when advancing attributes are x3 and group skills are x5
Skill Cap The older game was very skill focused, 4e makes your gear and attributes count for more by capping skills at 6.
Super Stat Edge Based on the standard 4 hour Mission games characters with a low edge are way underpowered compared with characters with high edge, yet it costs the same as every other attribute.
Initiative Passes Now someone without magic or cyberware no one can get multiple passes, it was super rare in 2e & 3e (a little more common in 1e) but you did have a shot if your reaction was high enough
[Edit] Defaulting in the Matrix is not clearly stated if you don't have the skill or the program.
Two sets of Rigging combat rules one for chases and one for tactical but they are incompatible, what if I want a tactical chase?

darelf
08-27-2008, 07:31 AM
Are you done yet? It's been almost a day, and most people... well... I mean...

nevermind

MortonStromgal
08-27-2008, 09:57 AM
I'm slow and I have to make sure I don't miss anything.

darelf
08-27-2008, 02:43 PM
I'm slow and I have to make sure I don't miss anything.

I'm just giving you a hard time....
:)

catateface
09-01-2008, 12:10 AM
I loved 2 and 3- both the settings and the rules (uber-flexible pointbuy character creation = best feature). 4th was... much less fun. When my group first got it we all agreed- it was better in every way and we loved it. We played the first half of a mission and agreed- awesome in every way. But by the end of that first mission we realized that there was way too little variability. Consistently got the same result when taking a shot with a given penalty. No penalty = 6 successes, four die penalty = 4 successes EVERY TIME, etc. Having just die penalties/bonuses and no Target Number modifiers killed it. Anyone else have that experience?

We sold our 4e books, went back to 3e (which admittedly needs a few house rules, but I've never found a system that didn't) and have loved every minute.

darelf
09-02-2008, 07:33 AM
We sold our 4e books, went back to 3e (which admittedly needs a few house rules, but I've never found a system that didn't) and have loved every minute.

We loved the system of 4e so much we replaced it with Unisystem.....

praksis
09-02-2008, 11:53 AM
Been re-reading some of the rules, and not sure about that defaulting in the matrix. Seems computer + logic is only for getting a particular device to work in the physical world. Anything using a program seems like it would default to just computer if you didn't have the program.

The fix number of successes I'm not sure on. Could definitely be an issue, but with only 33% of success on each die it seems like thre should be enough variability in particular roles to still leave an element of chance. Moving target numbers was always the thing that allowed really broken characters previously so like the fixed idea, will have to see how it plays out when our GM can finally run the game.

MortonStromgal
09-02-2008, 12:00 PM
Been re-reading some of the rules, and not sure about that defaulting in the matrix. Seems computer + logic is only for getting a particular device to work in the physical world. Anything using a program seems like it would default to just computer if you didn't have the program.



What if you don't have computer?

praksis
09-02-2008, 02:51 PM
By the way I read the rules, I think you're screwed for doing any hacking at that point.

I don't think that would stop anyone from still accessing things. Standard menu's to go to corp approved sites & data...they would just be the type that occasionally gets confused by search engines :)

MortonStromgal
09-02-2008, 04:25 PM
Well thats a problem as a Datasearch is basicly using a browser, now one could argue that any comlink should include a browse program of 1, however this is not stated. Nor is a clear default for people who lack a program and the skill but if you think of the program as replacing the attribute one could say that a logic -1 roll would be acceptable for those who do not have a program or the skill. This however creates a new problem of hackers with no programs because you get a very high logic score and you wouldn't need them. Which is why I would suggest raising the threshold rather than a -1 give them a threshold of 2 or more and programs become appealing again.

So basicly the rules are unclear at best. Which is one problem with parts of 4e. Rigging is another one with two seporate combat systems which are incompatible with each other, one tactical and one chase.

praksis
09-02-2008, 06:40 PM
I don't think it's that big of a problem, but then my perspective on what requires a roll is a little different. Hop online to use the net for normal browsing of info...no roll required. No skill doesn't mean you can't, just you aren't good at the difficult portions. Looking for an article about ancient rpgs, no problem, looking for one by a specific author who's somewhat obscure (I mean who cares about that ancient crap anyway :) ) you should have at least a little experience (skill of 1) to give it a try.

Likewise with the programs, I see browse 1 as a significantly more advanced program than just a simple search engine. It's going out to a dataset you identify and searching for specific information as directed. Might not be great at it, but what you're asking of it is significantly more challenging than what you'd get from google, afterall how many databases let google ping them?

Or the summarized version: legal usage of the net requires no roll, just time based on your skill (or lack of). Anything fancy or illegal definitely requires skill & specific programs to back it up.


Rigging I'll have to get back to you on. Haven't reread that part yet, but will be soon as the character I'm thinking of is one (technomancer rigger...powerful, not so much, but much more interesting than just a rigger)

MortonStromgal
09-02-2008, 11:29 PM
I don't think it's that big of a problem,

I'm not saying its a big problem, I'm saying its odd. With SR4 I'm reading along and along thinking ok good stuff, equal or better than the last edition then I hit a :confused: and I wonder why did they do something so odd, I try to come up with some reason the developers would have to do that and in some cases I can come to a conclusion and in others cases I really don't have any clue why (BP cost of attribute & group skills vs karma cost of attribute & group skills, I'm looking at you most of all) Part of these oddities are translation issues others are new system issues (really its a new system), hopefully those two will get hammered out in 5e.

The design goal of 4e is very different from 2e & 3e, in some cases we know what those design goals were (streamline the system to a unified mechanic using concepts found in nWOD) in others no developer has said what the goal was.

MortonStromgal
10-21-2008, 03:00 PM
So after a lot of reading and thinking here is a list of things I think are better/more fun in older editions and a list of things that are better/ more fun in the newer edition

Older Edition Better
1. Dice Pools (major)
2. Karma Pool (major)
3. Initiative (minor)
4. Skill Caps (minor)
5. Damage Track (minor)

4e Better
1. Magic (major)
2. TN resolution (major)
3. Matrix (major)
4. Rigging (major)

So with the exception of TN the old seams better at the core but 4e wins on the subsystems. With a return to dice pools and making edge work like karma pool, I think I could really enjoy 4e. There are still problems with Magic, Matrix, and Rigging but the older editions had problems to and its not anything you could not house rule just like previous editions.

4e without house rules gets a 6/10 because the things I don't like are part of the core system.
With some "fixes" (Edge/Dice Pools) I think it will be a 10/10 as the best SR yet. (I'm bias though as I love SR)

Lucifer_Draconus
10-24-2009, 07:42 PM
I have yet to read the 4ed. rules but own both 2nd & 3rd ed. I'm not big on SR rules in general especially dice pools. What I've read of 4th ed. , I think I'll prefer the rules over previous editions. My only problem would be technomancers..just don't fly with me. I'm planning on converting SR to my fav. cyberpunk system, cyberspace (ICE) if I ever run it.

Dytrrnikl
10-25-2009, 03:31 PM
I have the 4E books and am quite intrigues by the 400BP character creation process. My only experience comes from 3E and the only gripe I had with that system was rolling a d6 for TNs. It made things like trying to get 8 or better pretty damned near impossible...and unless the GM was doing something wrong, TNs above 7 came up quite a bit. Our fix was to change the die rolled to d10s and tweaked the TNs appropropriately 6s to 10s, 5s to 8s, 4s to 6s and so forth. Made for a smoother flow. However, I digress so, back on topic.

From what I've seen, they've done a lot to streamline the clunkiness from 3E, at least from what I can tell by reading teh rules.

MortonStromgal
10-25-2009, 09:22 PM
It made things like trying to get 8 or better pretty damned near impossible...and unless the GM was doing something wrong, TNs above 7 came up quite a bit.

I'm wondering what you were trying to do that 7s came up so much :D (Most TNs are 4) and a 7 is no harder than a 6 on a d6 unless your GM had some house rule. There is a lot to know about building your character in any edition of Shadowrun as the gear tends to lower your target numbers and raise that of your opponents. Having the right gear can make all the difference. My group is currently using 3e with a few houserules (like specializations work like 4e) and I would say for the majority of us its a great fit.

Bearfoot_Adam
10-26-2009, 11:54 AM
In the last SR 3 game I was in our characters never had a problem hitting those big numbers in the things our characters were supposed to do. We often hit 8's 10's and even 12's. I think the important thing to remember in SR you are playing specialists so having big dice pools in select fields is par for the course.

Lexicon
06-24-2011, 03:06 PM
I don't like what 4e did with the Magic system. I enjoyed both the schools of magic bumping heads with each other back in the day.

Goreaddict
04-29-2012, 05:00 PM
I've only ever played 4e. So I have no insight on how it stacks up, but what I will say is if I don't limit the other players to a 300 bp for creation I end up having a group of runners that can easily over come every situation, OR a certain individual in my group makes something ridiculous like a pixie, naga, spirit, or 6 armed thing.