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Thriondel Half-Elven
08-05-2008, 08:57 PM
Not sure if there is already a thread for this. Didn't see one so here I go. .

I was just wondering what happened to the skills? Like Search and Spot to name a couple. I know those two were pretty important. Is there equivalents to the old skills that were removed?

Dimthar
08-05-2008, 09:19 PM
I was just wondering what happened to the skills? Like Search and Spot to name a couple. I know those two were pretty important. Is there equivalents to the old skills that were removed?

The number of skills were reduced, spot is part of Perception, that I know.

Somewhere in "What's wrong about 4E" you will find some discussion in regards to skills and skill challenges. Also in "The Duke is ready to see you (or something like that)" thread you will find other comments.

.

Thriondel Half-Elven
08-05-2008, 09:21 PM
Thanks Dimthar. i will go look in the "What's wrong about 4E"

fmitchell
08-05-2008, 09:37 PM
Not sure if there is already a thread for this. Didn't see one so here I go. .

I was just wondering what happened to the skills? Like Search and Spot to name a couple. I know those two were pretty important. Is there equivalents to the old skills that were removed?

A lot of them got consolidated. "Search" and "Spot" got lumped into "Perception", for example.

I'm sure there's a FAQ somewhere, but here's my best guess on translating 3.5 skills to 4th edition:

Appraise => (A)
Balance => Acrobatics
Bluff => Bluff
Climb => Athletics
Concentration => (B)
Craft => (A)
Decipher Script => (C)
Diplomacy => Diplomacy
Disable Device => Thievery
Disguise => Bluff
Escape Artist => Acrobatics
Forgery => Thievery
Gather Information => Streetwise
Handle Animal => Nature
Heal => Heal
Hide => Stealth
Intimidate => Intimidate
Jump => Athletics
Knowledge (Arcana) => Arcana
Knowledge (Dungeoneering) => Dungeoneering
Knowledge (History) => History
Knowledge (Nature) => Nature
Knowledge (Religion) => Religion
Knowledge (The Planes) => Religion
Knowlege (other) => (A)
Listen => Perception
Move Silently => Stealth
Open Lock => Thievery
Perform => (A)
Profession => (A)
Ride => Nature
Search => Perception
Sense Motive => Insight
Sleight of Hand => Thievery
Speak Language => (C)
Spellcraft => Arcana
Spot => Perception
Survival => Dungeoneering (underground), Nature (wilderness)
Swim => Athletics
Tumble => Acrobatics
Use Magic Device => (D)
Use Rope => (E)

(A) Every skill related to a non-adventuring profession seems to have completely disappeared.

(B) Magical abilities are either immediate Powers or long term Rituals, so apparently this skill isn't needed.

(C) Languages are now all-or-nothing, and scripts are part of knowing a language.

(D) Magic items are either automatic, or are usable only by a certain class, so this skill apparently isn't needed either.

(E) I've skimmed the DMG and the PHB, and I can't figure out how characters tie knots. Is it automatic? Does it fall under some other skill like Nature, Dungeoneering, or Thievery? Is it a straight stat roll?

Valdar
08-05-2008, 10:24 PM
The design notes mention that the number of skills was drastically reduced in order to streamline character generation, and the design team's research indicated that the skill list was unnecessarily long- I believe they said something along the lines of, "How many characters would want Listen but not Spot? Not many." Basically, if you want your character to be more perceptive, it's one skill now instead of three. Same goes for all the skills that went into Athletics, Thievery, etc- the ability to pick locks but not pockets, or to climb but not swim, wasn't worth the extra complexity.

fmitchell
08-05-2008, 11:49 PM
Maybe I'm edging into "What's wrong with 4e" here, but in my attempt at translation a few things bugged me:

The big pet peeve is the disappearance of Appraise, Craft, Profession, Perform, and miscellaneous Knowledge skills. Yes, I know that PCs aren't merchants, craftsmen, sages, or minstrels ... but giving players a life before "adventuring" makes a certain amount of sense. Do we need to retrofit Kits?

How do you freaking tie a knot? It's not something that everyone would know off the bat. Is every child in D&D-land a Cub Scout with a merit badge in Knot-Tying?

As discussed in the Literacy thread, universal literacy in D&D is simple but not very realistic ... as is an all-or-nothing attitude towards languages. For those of us who quixotically try to introduce realism to D&D, introducing varying degrees of language comprehension and literacy requires a whole separate mechanism; I don't know how many players would burn a Feat just to enhance reading comprehension.

Valdar
08-06-2008, 01:29 AM
The big pet peeve is the disappearance of Appraise, Craft, Profession, Perform, and miscellaneous Knowledge skills. Yes, I know that PCs aren't merchants, craftsmen, sages, or minstrels ... but giving players a life before "adventuring" makes a certain amount of sense. Do we need to retrofit Kits?


I'm not sure what they were thinking there, and I haven't seen much discussion about it.

If I were to speculate, I think the thinking there is that each part of the game is more encapsulated than before, so you can't all-out gimp yourself in one area to make yourself a god in another. That goes both ways- the DM can create a combat encounter with a good idea of the PCs' capabilities, knowing that you can't have a) a total skillmonkey who is a physical threat to nobody, or b) a complete pommel that can do absolutely nothing but fight (I've taken to calling those characters "pommels", because they are little more than a thing that is attached to the hilt of a sword).

So, if and when professions make an appearance in D&D, my take is that they will be separate from the rest of character generation- like Skills and Feats, you get a certain number of them to flesh out your character, but you won't get to min/max very much to make one shine at the expense of another. They may get added in PHB2, or through DDI, or you can just create house-rules for them now if you don't want to wait.

Personally, I'm going free-form with them- if you say your character was a merchant, then you can haggle, appraise, and talk economics, end of story. I have two characters in my game that know how to sail based on their backgrounds, for instance.

ronpyatt
08-06-2008, 03:01 AM
The big pet peeve is the disappearance of Appraise, Craft, Profession, Perform, and miscellaneous Knowledge skills. Yes, I know that PCs aren't merchants, craftsmen, sages, or minstrels ... but giving players a life before "adventuring" makes a certain amount of sense. Do we need to retrofit Kits?Those skills are part of your character background. You still have those skills, but it is not necessary to roll checks for them.

A starting fighter can have made his own armor. A warlock can have made her own money as a merchant before she began adventuring. The skills are not gone, they're in the flavor of your character. You can even pick up the trades as part of your character development. Add it as background. You can start off a prince or a blacksmith, or whatever else you come up with in the story.

Some skills such as merchant skills can be the reason your character learned a good bit of history. Thus you might have a History as a trained skill and your background explains it.

Tying a knot is context related. If you are tying someone up to do a little interrogating, then make check associated with intimidation or diplomacy to see how well you tied the person up. If you're trying to use it to climb, the make an athletics check. If your background gives you an edge such as the Dragon Scouting Club, then the DM might give you a bonus for having a background suitable for the job. Those skills focus more on roleplaying elements of the game.

Some skills are feat related or powers related. Tumble is a rogue power. Ritual casting is a feat and uses skill rolls.

Thriondel Half-Elven
08-06-2008, 03:32 PM
thanks fmitchell, that list looks good.

Thriondel Half-Elven
08-07-2008, 03:46 PM
and what happened to the alignments?

fmitchell
08-07-2008, 04:03 PM
and what happened to the alignments?

That's a whole 'nother thread (or three). Short answer: they've been reduced to four "alignments" (Lawful Good, Good, Evil, Chaotic Evil) plus Unaligned (the new "neutral"). They also have no mechanical effect within the game. Here's the official explanation and rationale (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20080602a).

Thriondel Half-Elven
08-07-2008, 08:49 PM
thanks fmitchell. i guess that make sense. i was just used to all the choices