High Level Encounter Issues

[DMMike]

(Luckily, my campaign is starting at level one...)

I'm looking for some input on how to challenge high level characters. The standard solution, and the one that seems to be in most published modules, is simply to use bigger monsters with badder stats. You know, more PC levels means put them up against more hit points, damage reduction, spell resistance, and spell-like abilities.

My complaint with this solution is that these bigger monsters don't seem to be a bigger challenge. It's the same Godzilla balloon, just blown up to a bigger size. Is this really what it boils down to?

My campaign has a few in-game problems with high level encounters too:
1) If high level creatures are out there, why is/is not the world not already under their control?
2) I'm not a big fan of angels and demons, which seems to limit my high-level bad guys to dragons and undead.
3) I like to keep my NPCs in the mortal realm (<30 hit points) so high level NPCs are possible, but by comparison, extremely notorious.

How do you keep your high level PCs entertained, and what are the ramifications on your campaign world?

[michaeljearley]

I have had the privilage of playing in an expertly run Epic Campaign. It was designed by a dual major Psychology and Political Science student and he was running it as a kind of test of a couple of theories.

To set the scene. Most of "City" gaming took place in Sigil, the hub of the planes. (planescape from D&D). Simplified, everything in the city was epic, except for the merchants and such, some of whom were epic, some of which were normal. Order is kept by the Lady of Pain and her guards. She is "unbeatable, and everyone knows it" kind of thing. So while normal fights and gangs and what not were allowed, anything that caused great disturbances was handled imeaditely.

Secondly, which we as players did not find out for quite awhile, the big bad was level 360ish. As where most of the "Gods" we were dealing with. So the main plot thread really didn't involve combat, cause we'd get our behinds handed to us.

Reality was shaped by the transcended, (the level 360 guy and his ilk) which again we didnt' know at the begining. Some were good, some bad, some just didn't care. We were working for a "good" one aganinst the "worst" one. In the end, good and evil were brought into question, as well as might makes right, and for the greater good.

All in all, to simply answer the question (sorry for the ramble, but it was a great game) The combats were godzilla type. What happen when a party of 25th level heroes, invades the keep of a villian (also 25, with a bunch of 20th minions) Answer, chaos. But it was fun, and what combat should be.
What kept the game going was the 6 year old girl, who could run so fast she could plane shift and dimension door at will. Not only how do you catch her, but what do you do. Both sides said she needed to die. The good guys need the essense to save reality, the bad to destroy it. And if the girl lived too long, it defaulted to bad, cause he was more powerful. The essence would naturallly go there on it's own. Eventually the rogue caught her, because he sat on the floor, and started playing jacks, and then didn't let her play (but folded when she started to pout).

We also had some really good PVP go on as well. (personally I hate PVP, but this was expertly done. In the end, the cleric demanded that the girl live, then the rogue backstabbed her, she died, and the cleric and rogue went at it. Both almost died, cleric left for a session or two, then came back, and we decided what to do next. (cleric and rogue didn't talk much for awhile, but each understood that since the deed was done, foward movement was more improtant than their philosiphical differences)

[michaeljearley]

Heh, sorry about that. This might make more sense.

1) If high level creatures are out there, why is/is not the world not already under their control? a. setting. In a normal world setting, with one epic, true, maybe the epic could take over. But take a dragon for instance, what do they want with a world, they just want their horde. Or a lich, the lich might want it all, but how to hold it. Takes eons of planning and small movements. b. why. If I have unlimited power (at least in my eyes) what would I do with a kingdom that needs taxes, and more farmes, and where should the roads go.
2) I'm not a big fan of angels and demons, which seems to limit my high-level bad guys to dragons and undead. You could have other characters, creatures from deep in the sea, a different plane. Angels and Demons are just the most mythically ava.
3) I like to keep my NPCs in the mortal realm (<30 hit points) so high level NPCs are possible, but by comparison, extremely notorious. This one is tough. It could possibly fall under the beneth my notice. Or if for example the high level heros are out to take an evil warlord off his throne, it's true with their prowess they could just go defeat the army and remove him. But would the people respect that, how many would they have to kill. Death Star logic, are those defending their government evil simply because the leader of said government is evil.

Also, there's a good example in the last statement. Its not the desposing of the evil warlord that's the quest. That's easy for epic characters. The fun is figuering out if you should, how you could, who will benifet. Etc...

[ronpyatt]

To answer the 1st encounter issue; With more than 1 high level creature/character/being in existence, they are fighting to dominate or free the world, no one of them is in total control and everyone who's anyone is meddling for control at every level of existence. That's why the world is a dangerous place, and why legendary type characters rise to the challenge to free or dominate or ignore the world, as each case may be. There is always someone a little tougher to contend with even the toughest PC.
When I play a high level character, I expect high level monsters to be thrown at me.

If you're using 4e, the answer comes easy; 4e is scalable. Which means that from 1st to 30th encounters will be fun at every level of play.

[Valdar]

If you're using 4e, the answer comes easy; 4e is scalable. Which means that from 1st to 30th encounters will be fun at every level of play.

It seems to be more scalable (flat BaB, no SoD, etc.), but I am curious to see what happens to the system when it's taken to near its listed load-bearing capacity- Aside from the already-eratta'ed case of a melee Ranger being able to one-shot Orcus, I'm sure there will be other game-breaking combinations that the designers missed...

[tesral]

Comes at about +10. d20 scales poorly.

My solution to high level PCs is to change the kind of encounter they have. Opponents are less combat, more thinking. Pit them against a natural disaster. Your lands have been hit by an earthquake, you need to deal with homeless staving people. Can't swing a sword at that. King X wants the great hero to marry his daughter. Get the Hero in the family. Deal with that. I move the game away from out right combat and into other realms of challenge.

[agoraderek]

(Luckily, my campaign is starting at level one...)

I'm looking for some input on how to challenge high level characters. The standard solution, and the one that seems to be in most published modules, is simply to use bigger monsters with badder stats. You know, more PC levels means put them up against more hit points, damage reduction, spell resistance, and spell-like abilities.

My complaint with this solution is that these bigger monsters don't seem to be a bigger challenge. It's the same Godzilla balloon, just blown up to a bigger size. Is this really what it boils down to?

My campaign has a few in-game problems with high level encounters too:
1) If high level creatures are out there, why is/is not the world not already under their control?

the party shouldn't be the only ones looking after the well being of the setting!

2) I'm not a big fan of angels and demons, which seems to limit my high-level bad guys to dragons and undead.

don't forget your templates and powerful "mundane" opponents...

3) I like to keep my NPCs in the mortal realm (<30 hit points) so high level NPCs are possible, but by comparison, extremely notorious.

well, opponents with class levels ARE dangerous...


How do you keep your high level PCs entertained, and what are the ramifications on your campaign world?

politics and mortal goings on are extremely relevant to my homebrew, so intrigue and maneuvering are quite germaine in my campaigns. high level pcs are involved in major international and internal politics, so they always have something to involve themselves with, even at high levels...

[DMMike]

Good point on what to do once, say a lich, rules the world. Would he want to collect taxes and dominate new lands? Probably not. That's a mortal pursuit. But even if a high level enemy doesn't want to rule the world, its motivations would probably impact the world. Examples:
Ancient Red Dragon - own every treasure on the planet. Makes macro-economies difficult.
Lich - probably lost reasoning through undeath, so an unquenchable thirst for snuffing life would rank pretty highly as a motivation.
Balor - suck the planet into the lower planes? Not about ruling the planet, but just as devastating.


I don't buy into the counter balancing explanation. It sets up a campaign where the PCs are the weakest power on the block until 20th (or higher) level. What's the point of getting that 15th cleric level, when there's been a circle of celestials roaming around for decades, already fending off the cult of devils that you thought you were destined to destroy?

The idea of non-combat issues is a good one, but the adventurous nature of the game requires a (challenging) battle here and there. e.g. A plague sweeps the land, can't swing a sword at it, but the diseased keep eating each other, and have begun forming a consuming beast that grows in power as the disease spreads.

I first started noticing problems challenging high-level PCs when I was playing a 16th level sorceror (first mistake), who was exploring a cave that had some zombie-looking folk in it. Sickly, unarmed, and crazed folk. Hmm, should be put out of their misery with a good burning hands, right? Wrong. They saved against everything, and every open-handed slap they did caused at least 20 damage. Talk about blowing up the Godzilla balloon.

[ignimbrite]

I understand that you might not want to use dragons but I love the dragons of the great game - Xorvintaal - from monster manual 5. These dragons can be any CR really and are maneouvering for this other than a bigger horde. So your PCs might think that they are the movers and shakers but suddenly they find themselves working with a great dragon to further its own ends (even if those ends might eventually involve a lot of death down the line). This will create some moral conflict for the players. And the individuals that the Xorvintaal dragons use are likely to be scalable to the PCs so it is a perfect fit to explain why everything is at approximately the right CR.

Alternatively you can get your PCs to retire by having them run up against stuff that they snuff out too quickly. Eventually they will realise that the Material Plane has limited options and move on.

Liches and stuff usually have long term plans with multiple fall back positions. So if you are fighting them be prepared to have them keep resurfacing through Clones etc - see OOTS (Order of the Stick) for some ideas.

[nijineko]

(Luckily, my campaign is starting at level one...)

I'm looking for some input on how to challenge high level characters. The standard solution, and the one that seems to be in most published modules, is simply to use bigger monsters with badder stats. You know, more PC levels means put them up against more hit points, damage reduction, spell resistance, and spell-like abilities.

My complaint with this solution is that these bigger monsters don't seem to be a bigger challenge. It's the same Godzilla balloon, just blown up to a bigger size. Is this really what it boils down to?

in a word, no. in this case bigger is not necessarily better. i am constantly called upon to advise about this issue in my role as a dm's consultant.

My campaign has a few in-game problems with high level encounters too:
1) If high level creatures are out there, why is/is not the world not already under their control?

this simply boils down to motivation. there are many reasons as to why a particular baddie or even goodie is not into world domination. some have been covered already, so i won't elaborate much further. one point, however. this is where campaign development comes in. if the evil bad guy has attracted the good guys attention, then maybe they should start researching what the evil bad guy is up to. maybe he's busy staving off an intra-planar invasion, cause he likes his world the way it is. ("i don't care if you are evil or not! i'm not allying with you 'cause this is MY world, get lost!") the players might wind up having to pitch in with him, her or it.

lack of interest, other-planar interest, ancient oaths, oneup-being-ship, the list is potentially endless.


2) I'm not a big fan of angels and demons, which seems to limit my high-level bad guys to dragons and undead.

one option is to change the nature of the entities in question. instead of making them archetypes of good and evil, change it up a bit. make them all energy related, or domain-related, or concept-related.

3) I like to keep my NPCs in the mortal realm (<30 hit points) so high level NPCs are possible, but by comparison, extremely notorious.

sounds fun! made for rp instead of out-and-out combat, sounds like.

How do you keep your high level PCs entertained, and what are the ramifications on your campaign world?

well, others have, and will continue to, cover the roleplaying aspect of entertaining high-level pcs. so i will cover what most people give up as hopeless-combat.

first point. the game is not actually broken. this is the first roadblock that people throw up and defeat themselves with. by saying it's broken, you are abdicating responsibility and saying you are already defeated.

now before anyone flames me, here is why it isn't broken:

the game makes certain assumptions about what styles of play will take place at what level, and no where in the rulebooks is this written! not to mention the fact that many of the adventure and module designers manage to not take this effect into account either.

the so-called "broken-ness" occurs invariably when someones idea of how the game should play differs from the unwritten assumptions of the game. the game assumes that low level characters will be primarily tactical combat plus roleplaying. next it assumes that the characters will become politically oriented and be dealing with more roleplaying issues and only some combat. next, it shifts from tactical combat to strategic combat, and assumes that what combat takes place will be on a grand scale. finally, the characters become powers in the cosmology. upon these assumptions the original game was based. many of these assumptions have survived and are still reflected in the rules through every revision to date.

second point. the game starts changing gears mid-level, and completely changes gears in epic. this ties in with the assumptions. lower level combat is primarily tactical, mid level a mix of strategy and tactics, and high-level is primarily strategicly oriented. and these are all different styles of combat!

third point. your dm and even players may not know how to play in these fasions. heck, might not even like them!

now, lets put away the soapbox and get down to some details.



how do we challenge high level characters in combat? we are going to have to change our encounter strategy. what are my guidelines?

players should be having fun.
players should be challenged by the encounter.
characters should be able to use their abilities.

when i'm designing an encounter, i look at the overall story, the immediate adventure thread, and the character's abilities. it's important to track and be familiar with what characters can do. the players will still suprise you with unexpected applications of abilities, but that's part of the fun. so let's pick 16th level as an example. some characters will have 6 levels of a base class, and 10 of a prestige class by then. they are going to be putting out upwards of 50hp in a single attack in some cases. they will make dc 30 saves. they can have ac upwards of 40-50.

i have found that the best answer to dealing with powerful characters is numbers. even a peon can hit an ac 40-50 with enough aid another actions from allies. grapple attempts work really well too. i love hitting the fighter types with ~20 low to mid level peons all trying to grapple them at once. on the one side, they actually have a chance of bringing down and tying up the fighter for a round or three, if i'm lucky. on the other hand, it's a perfect setup for the fighter to bust out some awesome cleave attacks which are also sooooo much fun to describe. =D large numbers of peons allow the casters to lay waste with the big spells, the fighters to cleave, monks to tumble through with impunity, rouges to flank, and the others don't do so badly either. large numbers of relatively weak enemies also represent a reasonable threat that has to be addressed. which then gives your big baddies a chance to use their abilites! and is highly representitive of the "evil bad guy tyrant" bit.

high level characters should be fighting whole freaking armies, not "encounters". look at the abilities! that is what those abilities are designed to do! especially, once you hit epic. however, the single encounter still has a place. but it needs to be mixed in with large scale strategic combat. after all, that IS where d&d came from. wargaming.

yes, combat will take longer. but the epic descriptions and stories you get from it are worth it. any way, that's it for now, more later perhaps.

[DMMike]

Ignim - I thought OOTS used cliche' stuff so we don't have to!? I totally want to use a dragon at high levels, what other opportunity do you get to use spellcasting, super-human intelligence, fear-simulation, and inferno-like breath weapons, all before melee has begun? My problem with the dragon is explaining why he lets things like kingdoms, magic academies, and dragon-slaying swords exist without destroying them in short order. Best reason so far: dragons use a lot of energy (Magic and carbs), so they spend a lot of time sleeping.

Nij - I like the changing types idea on angels and demons. I'm a big elemental fan, so why not modify those outsiders into elementals? But I run into the same problem of - if they're already around, why don't they turn the planet into a day-care for fire-plane elementals?

If high levels are entirely strategic, that excludes a lot of players from wanting to play them. But it does make sense. In a practical world, there really shouldn't be more than a handful of creatures that a high level character would have trouble with. Otherwise, the same world would be incredibly lethal to most low-level creatures. So the trick is to work out a balance of tactics and strategy, even at high levels. Or just talk the PCs into starting over.

I was actually expecting my PCs to take out armies at mid-levels. The Mob of Humans swarm from Cityscape makes the combat somewhat practical. Why run 30 humans, when you can run one swarm? CR is around 5, I think.

Further, I expect high level combat to be really ugly. Movement is extremely complicated, with flying, teleporting, astral jaunting, blinking, and maybe even burrowing and swimming. Armor is extremely complicated, with natural armor, damage reduction, fast healing, regeneration, deflection, energy resistance, and concealment. Physical attacks are extremely complicated, with multiple attacks, haste, multiattack, cleave, power attack, reach, luck rerolls, sneak attack damage, ghost touch, and more. Perception is extremely complicated, with epic spot and listen modifiers, low light vision, dark vision, blindsight, clairvoyance, clairaudience, augury, familiars, alarm, blind-fight, invisibility, true seeing, and a host of illusions. Also, everyone and their mom can add modifiers to the battle, so each of the fighter's (two handed fighting focus, of course) 6 or 7 attacks has 6 or 7 modifiers to it.

I think the monk shouldn't be the only one to become an outsider at 20th level.

[ignimbrite]

I totally agree, wyrms should have periods of extended rest between bouts of destruction - like in the second D&D movie Wrath of a Dragon God.
The great thing about Xorvantaal dragons is that they have to play by the rules. You can always have a rule that says they cannot directly attack holy ground. So the +5 holy dragon bane greatsword of awesomness is in a consecrated vault of a chapel of Bahammut on a remote mounain. Part of the challenge for mid-level PCs is investigating where the chapel is, overcoming environmental issues to get to it (and maybe some dragons stopping you from aquiring a weapon that would kill them) and then some good RPing to get the abbott to think that you are The One destined to wield the sword.

And as for outsiders - I agree if they were allowed on the Material Plane why wouldn't they remake it in their image? Well lets just say that they are forbidden from directly accessing the Material Plane and have to act through cults etc. So now the PCs have to investigate the cults, track down the big bad cult leader (perhaps a level 16 Sorc that got possessed) only to find out that the ultimate mastermind is an outsider like one of Bel's generals. Now they have to do some planar travel, perhaps through the World Serpant Inn (which offers some great RPing potential), till they get to the first layer of Hell. Once there they find themselves in the middle of a Blood War battle and have to either pick a side or just survive, which gives you the oppurtunity to throw all sorts of different demons and devils at the party. Finally perhaps they meet Bel's secretary and have to RP an invitation back to the palace so they can sneek up on the general and kill him (or put in torpor for 1000 years depending on how you play it) and maybe Bel rewards you for getting rid of a general that he was getting tired of in the first place - it was all Bel's idea! dun, dun, dunnnnn!

The one thing we tried to do with high level strategic gaming is to macro and micro manage the combat. We would usually spend 3-4 hours on macro hashing through battle plans etc and then break into micro and have the party try to work around the defenses of the leader of the opposing forces and kill him in hand-to-hand combat - or whatever passes for hand-to-hand at high levels. That way you get both strategic macro gaming and some short but sharp micro/tactical gaming.

I mean ultimately if there is nothing left to challenge them on the Material Plane they only have a few choices:
1) leave for another challenge on another plane,
2) retire
3) get a little meglomania and try to rule the world themselves! - which opens up more political stuff and the chance for sneaky mid-level NPCs to remove them from office. Or have them make mid-level characters for a "one-off" but then it turns out that the one-off is a new campaign where they take on their former characters who are now nasty tyrant rulers suffering from meglomania or possession.

anyhoo just a few ideas ...

[DMMike]

And as for outsiders - I agree if they were allowed on the Material Plane why wouldn't they remake it in their image? Well lets just say that they are forbidden from directly accessing the Material Plane and have to act through cults etc. So now the PCs have to investigate the cults, track down the big bad cult leader (perhaps a level 16 Sorc that got possessed) only to find out that the ultimate mastermind is an outsider like one of Bel's generals. Now they have to do some planar travel

Right on. I'm mostly in agreement, but the high level cult leader wouldn't work in my campaign, because why does she waste her time running cults with that much power? State-religion, anyone? Also, I'm dread-fearful of planes, because I hate to map out a Prime city and suburbs, much less another plane of existence.

I came up with mid-high level tactical solutions yesterday. For those interested, here goes:
The EGG System
E - Elementals
Base elementals reach 11th CR, which can then be advanced, templated, or multiplied. It's tricky to explain what high-level magic is summoning them, but nothing that a few human (goblin?) sacrifices can't fix.

G - Golem
Golems can also be advanced, and who doesn't want to ride or fight the colossal golem left by an ancient civilization?

G - Giant
These guys were tricky. I finally realized I can add lots of class levels without breaking them (for the world, not the game). I made them inherently aligned (except for stone giants), and the resulting foolishness keeps them in check in society. Also, they have about as many kids as elephants (sperm whales?) do. The good giants sit around making music all day, tending fields (since they have monstrous appetites) and defending the towns of humanoid sponsors. They're pure good, so they don't kill or control anyone. They will still raise a huge greatsword for self-defense. The evil giants care about two things - themselves, and their children. They have been known to band, but in-fighting over who gets child custody keeps their numbers down. Also, pure evil means that even if one wanted to take over a town, he would tax/torment/trample (maliciously) it do death in no time.

Ahh, the beauty of alignment extremists.

[ignimbrite]

Right on. I'm mostly in agreement, but the high level cult leader wouldn't work in my campaign, because why does she waste her time running cults with that much power? State-religion, anyone? Also, I'm dread-fearful of planes, because I hate to map out a Prime city and suburbs, much less another plane of existence.
...
...
G - Giant
These guys were tricky. I finally realized I can add lots of class levels without breaking them (for the world, not the game). I made them inherently aligned (except for stone giants), and the resulting foolishness keeps them in check in society. Also, they have about as many kids as elephants (sperm whales?) do. The good giants sit around making music all day, tending fields (since they have monstrous appetites) and defending the towns of humanoid sponsors. They're pure good, so they don't kill or control anyone. They will still raise a huge greatsword for self-defense. The evil giants care about two things - themselves, and their children. They have been known to band, but in-fighting over who gets child custody keeps their numbers down. Also, pure evil means that even if one wanted to take over a town, he would tax/torment/trample (maliciously) it do death in no time.

Ahh, the beauty of alignment extremists.

I love that idea about the giants! Making them family-centric is a really great idea.

Oh and I guess that the idea about the cult leader is probably true, I forgot that you don't like so many high level NPCs. The only way you could reason it is that if the leader was possessed the devil would have non-human ambitions, and would probably realise that having a theocracy would invite the attentions of paladins and good aligned hero PCs. (not that it would actually know what a PC is, but you get the point, no?)

As for drawing out cities etc: they have brought out a whole host of books that have entire cities and planes set out for you already. The Eberron Sharn book is great. Of course that option only works if you can afford to buy 4 or 5 more books ...

And the elementals are great, in other monster manuals they came up with omnimentals and monolithic elementals and all sorts of crazy souped up elementals to challenge high level PCs. Again you have to buy the books ... sigh, it is a really expensive hobby, but I digress.

The EGG system I think is great!

[DMMike]

I've been trying to handle the expensive part, but I still ended up buying a total of 9 or 10 books. I have a pile of Dragon magazines and forums like this for generating new ideas. But regarding high levels...

The EGG system will have to do for high levels, with dragons and undead as ever-present support. I'd like to automatically incorporate strategic playing, but I don't see a lot of players going for it. Plus, what good is a +5 dragon-bane claymore that you never get to use?

If anyone with experience wants to chime in - I was also planning on using traps and environment for toughening up encounters. Maybe a storm giant is only CR 13. But what about a swimming storm giant? While the PCs are on a caravel? In a storm? In arctic waters? Dodging traps that were pre-placed on the boat by the giant's saboteurs? That's gotta be at least encounter level 15.

[Valdar]

I figured that the party would be fighting demigods or avatars of gods at the upper levels (as boss fights- the adventures would be filled out with their angels and heroes as other opponents).

For maps, you don't need any more detail than will be used- write up a short description of the city, and go with it. If the party needs a diviner or weapon merchant, decide if it's there, and tell them they go there- they don't need a street map and descriptions of every building along the way (and if they press you for one, tell them they get lost or something sp they have no idea :D)

[DMMike]

Valdar - avatars, definitely. Demigods, maybe. Might as well, since I cut most mortals off at 3rd level.

So I was playing an oldie but goldie - Actraiser 2. How's this for an epic encounter: the main character (an avatar himself) must do battle against a flying, personal wind-walled giant. A giant is tough, but this isn't any ordinary battlefield. To fight the giant, the hero must ride volcano debris miles into the air, and then use the mountain-chunks as platforms on which to fight the giant as everything falls back down.

True, some physics got lost in the drama of the video game. But it's a good example of making a mid-level encounter into a high-level one: a PC might have to make jump checks, balance checks, concentration checks, and still have a way to survive the impact with the ground once the battle's over.

[nijineko]

i have an idea about your conundrum with the elementals. they represent a "pure" form of element. well the prime material is about as dirty as one can get with all the elements mixed together. so, prolonged stay contaminates them, and eventually alters them into something much less... (origin of species, anyone?) (just a thought....) being summoned does not usually get them very 'dirty' but staying for longer than the typical round/per level summons can cause them serious issues in the long run. maybe they become a paraelemental and / or get ostracized by their kith and kin back on the elemental planes.

[DMMike]

So, elementals get more powerful as they mix up? I like the idea, and it reminds me of the "elementals" from Forry. The problem for my campaign is that elementals typically appear on the prime plane in response to summoning - which means they don't stick around long enough to get contaminated.

That doesn't mean some ancient power could have called an elemental (a powerful one, no less) to permanently guard something or other, but those are the exceptions, instead of the rule. The high level encounter problem stems from the world, at large, having a low average challenge rating. So a mix-a-mental solves the problem of entertaining PCs for one or two encounters, but not throughout the high levels.

It seems that a consequence of having an economical, fragile-NPC world
is that you can't practically have a lot of high level encounters. These only make sense when NPCs regularly hit 10th level, and there are lots of high CR monsters to fill the higher challenge ratings. Which is good in a sense, since I don't look forward to running endless high-level encounters (haha I hit him! No you didn't, you missed due to concealment. I have the anti-concealment feat. Okay, but your weapon doesn't hit silver DR. That's okay, it has a spell effect that's unaffected by DR. But the monster has spell resistance. Which is overcome by my limited-wish ring. Okay but...)

I came up with another solution for advancing levels in the absence of plentiful encounters: quest (adventure) awards. Maybe there aren't enough creatures on the planet for 14 encounters of an Encounter Level 15 or more, but that doesn't matter if your last series of encounters was so substantive that you experienced enough to gain a level anyway.

[tesral]

There is always the old comic book theory that the existence of superheroes causes supervillains to spontaneously generate. No Batman, you never get a Joker. No paragon fighter, the ancient dragon sleeps forever.

[ignimbrite]

I would also say that if there is not much to challenge the group then perhaps they rest till something comes along that requires their awesomeness. At that point the human fighter starts running into age problems. Hits level 10 at 25(ish) and then spends more and more time waiting around for something worthy to challenge till he hits middle age at level 15 and then he has to start thinking seriously that maybe he has to retire his character (if he was power gaming). But I like to take characters through age categories and make them challenged, I think it adds a certain element of realism. Sure you're the most knowledgeable and skilled fighter on three continents and you've killed wyrms, but you're OLD now and the young guys are starting to treat you like you are fragile, even though you can hit them in your sleep ...

[DMMike]

tesral - the comic book principle would probably make my PCs into the antagonists. PCs can't help but catch the public eye, especially when they're powerful. So it really wouldn't take much time for state heads to start demonizing the powerful PCs, and raising forces to bring them in-line, or down. On the protagonistic side, that elder dragon the PCs just killed had to have cubs hidden somewhere...

Age problems are a really cool idea, but they don't fit into a campaign well. If the PCs have years and years to sit around and get old, it probably means the campaign plot fizzled out. But it's an awesome way to start a new campaign with the same characters -

"Good news. You'll be starting this campaign with your old characters at their old levels. Bad news: they're old!"

Side question: are there any rules for changing a party's level after aging effects?

[nijineko]

So, elementals get more powerful as they mix up? I like the idea, and it reminds me of the "elementals" from Forry. The problem for my campaign is that elementals typically appear on the prime plane in response to summoning - which means they don't stick around long enough to get contaminated.

actually i meant less powerful... mixed as in diluted... but take it whichever way you like! more powerful works too.

as for the higher levels, you can always postulate that some dungeons were not built only to keep people out, but to keep things in.... that justifies raising the density a bit of your higher level stuff.

examining the assumptions of the game, once one gets really powerful, they kinda assume that you will start cruising the planes for entertainment. where do you think the mmo's got the idea for level based locations from anyway? ^^ (gross generalization, i know.) you could always toss alternate dimensions at them, or even customized outer planes based on a totally elemental theme. outer plane of marshmellows anyone? j/k. =D but seriously, maybe they could discover various paraelemental planes, or if you include demi-planes, then you can go over the top whenever you feel like it. demi-planes are perfect for weird custom rules that keep powerful things put. for a time. until just before the pcs show up and ruin it, thus having to save the world, again. or something.

[tesral]

"Good news. You'll be starting this campaign with your old characters at their old levels. Bad news: they're old!"

Side question: are there any rules for changing a party's level after aging effects?

I have a scenario called "The Senior Players' Tour". Grab your sword and walker, we're off to save the world! It involves the retired Heroes at the Shady Rest Adventurer's Retirement Home (They have a cool extreme canasta tournament) They find themselves the only ones that can stop their ancient nemesis the Wizard "What's my name again?" And the Dragon Old Zippo from taking over the local town.

The various heroes have aging effects. The Paladin and warhorse have fatigue syndrome. The one Wizard is forgetful, the other Wizard has dementia and is still fighting the Battle of Cromdon Pass 50 years later. The Cleric is hard of hearing, the Ranger has allergies, and the Thief has palsy.

The last time I ran it was rather fun. They all ended up reconciling their differences and setting back at the Shady Rest with Zippo sleeping in the sun while the canasta tournament picked back up.

The usual method for aging is to change the ability scores. You take hits to the physical, but gain wisdom.

[drewshi]

I actually find it funny that in most campaigns the characters run into situations that are specifically geared for their level. I don't always do that with the characters. I like to shake them up and make them think I'm crazy by having an ultra-powerful being deal with them at some point. I leave it so that they have an escape option as the ultra-powerful being really isn't going to waste their time chasing after them. It also sets up for a future encounter when they get to a higher level. Of course, I rough them up first before they can escape.

[DMMike]

Senior Players' Tour! Awesome. Makes me think of the lycanthropy control skill. Maybe forgetful wizards need to make a modified INT check to remember what spells they prepared that day?

The aging rules, from what I recall, are much more negative than positive. I think it takes a special kind of player to say "yeah! Let's bash the daylights out of my strength score!"

On the planes - I see how they're challenging and imaginative, which is why they get abused by video games, but I think they're a cop-out. Because as a player, I'm asking "why, in another plane of existence, do any laws of physics resemble the normal ones? Why is there a ground to walk on and gravity to keep me there? Or failing that, how am I supposed to get anywhere without a permanent, plane-specific fly spell? And while I'm in a new plane, how do I even know what planet-equivalent I'm supposed to be on?"

So my preference is to do planar stuff on the home planet - under sea, in volcano, on sky castle, and in the arctic. And don't forget the region-sized, stinking swamp, with a mysterious, cave-like complex hidden within that might or might not have a dragon lurking in it...

Drewshi - I think your avatar, the Dungeon Master (?), would disapprove of messing with PCs :) Trust you me, my high level PCs will face a lot of off-level encounters. Probably on the too-low side.

[nijineko]

uh, actually in most planes there is not a ground to walk on, nor gravity in some cases. or extreme or variable in others. forces them to fly and whatnot more often. some planes everyone can fly. and as far as the planet goes, in d&d it has been established that each prime material (planet) has it's own set of planes. they are alternate dimensions of the prime material, lesser and greater versions of it. part of the point of the planes is that it justifies extreme, illogical, and nonsensical environments which forces the players to use resources, thus increasing the difficulty of the overall encounters. =D

about aging-in 3e you take a -2 to all physical stats, and a +1 to all mental stats for each age catagory you increase past a certain point. certain classes halt the aging process, even if they don't prevent you from dying. unless you are a dragon. then you just get stronger, period.