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CelestialBarbarian
07-21-2008, 04:54 PM
It's not clear to me whether the type pyramid from pages 142 and 143 applies to the type of the base creature or just the type of an added template. An outsider, for instance, appears at the very top of they pyramid. If you've added an outsider template to a base creature and then add a dragon template, the pyramid causes the creature to remain an outsider. That much is clear from the language on page 143 under "Construct, Outsider, Undead:" "If some other template is applied to them, they generally retain whichever of these three types they have."

What causes confusion is the language "if some other template," which implies that the base creature became an outsider by the application of a template. To me it would make sense that it doesn't matter whether a creature started as a outsider or became an outsider from a template, that either way you can't change the outsider type with the application of a template, whether it's another template or the only template.

So if you took the half-dragon template and applied it to the scyllan, an outsider from Stormwrack, would it become a dragon (replacing its d8 hit dice with d12 hit dice and its 8 skill points per die with 6 skill points per die) because dragon is the first template applied and the pyramid applies only to creature type from templates? Or would it remain an outsider because the pyramid applies to creature type regardless of its origin?

How do you interpret it, and why? Thanks. :)

CelestialBarbarian
07-22-2008, 04:45 PM
The text at the very bottom of the first column of page 143 says, "The last template applied determines the final creature type, unless the current type is higher on the type pyramid. Actually I hadn't noticed that text before; it seems to answer my question. The current type of a base scylla is outsider, which occupies a higher position on the type pyramid than dragon, so applying the half-dragon template doesn't change the type from outsider down to dragon. :)

nijineko
07-22-2008, 08:26 PM
i was going to mention that, but you beat me to it. =D glad you found the answer!

CelestialBarbarian
08-17-2008, 08:48 PM
i was going to mention that, but you beat me to it. =D glad you found the answer!

Thanks very much! :)

nijineko
08-17-2008, 08:53 PM
no problem. i frequently find myself referring to that book... too bad a beholder comes out as ecl 20 minimum.

CelestialBarbarian
08-17-2008, 09:11 PM
no problem. i frequently find myself referring to that book... too bad a beholder comes out as ecl 20 minimum.

Yes, it's a great book. Sorry I took so long to reply--I just noticed the subscription options at the bottom of the page today when I went to modify my game ad.

nijineko
08-17-2008, 11:18 PM
heheheh. i reply to so many posts i was getting over 100 emails a day due to subscriptions. they have not yet consolidated that into a single giant email yet, so i had to cancel all my subscriptions except for the play-by-post games i'm in. ^^

tesral
08-17-2008, 11:43 PM
heheheh. i reply to so many posts i was getting over 100 emails a day due to subscriptions. they have not yet consolidated that into a single giant email yet, so i had to cancel all my subscriptions except for the play-by-post games i'm in. ^^

I don't "subscribe" in that fashion either. I would get swamped. It's easier just to check the User Control Panel and deal as they come up.

CelestialBarbarian
08-18-2008, 05:17 AM
I don't "subscribe" in that fashion either. I would get swamped. It's easier just to check the User Control Panel and deal as they come up.

On most of the boards where I post there's a control in the control panel allowing automatic subscription, but either this board doesn't have it or I missed it and had to subscribe individually. I haven't posted that much here either so at some point I forgot about coming here to look--until someone sent me an email about my "online" game that's not online! I had to come back to correct that error in my game invitation, and while I was here noticed nijineko's post to which I'd never replied.

nijineko
08-20-2008, 04:51 PM
it has the auto subscribe, that's what i had going. it's in your edit options page, in your control panel. i certainly hope that you come by and visit often! =D

CelestialBarbarian
08-20-2008, 06:12 PM
it has the auto subscribe, that's what i had going. it's in your edit options page, in your control panel. i certainly hope that you come by and visit often! =D

Thanks for the directions--I went there and changed the setting to auto subscribe. Thanks for the warm welcome too!

Oh, I meant to ask you, what did you mean above about a beholder having a minimum ECL of 20?

With more than a thousand posts each I can see why you and tesral would get swamped with auto-subscribe. With 20 posts I have no such problem. :lol:

nijineko
08-20-2008, 08:36 PM
we hope that you get there! =D

about the beholder. that is one of the races that was not addressed anywhere as to it's ecl, by wotc. even in the lords of madness books. emailing customer service resulted in an "ask your dm" non-answer. using the rules from savage species to estimate it's ecl runs something like as follows: (i don't have all the books with me right now....)

first, there is it's flight and vision abilites. worth a couple of plusses there. technically. at the levels where a beholder is encountered, flight is less of an issue, but there it is. it's at-will spell-like abilities are worth a couple more. bite attack is worth maybe one.

and then there is the ten free actions per round. that's worth about +5 or +6. it could be argued that the spell-like abilites fold into that, but even so, you still add all that into the hit dice and you come up with 20 if you are generous, and 22-24 if you are super-strict. you might be able to justify 18-19 total if you really squeeze the rules, but that's pretty thin ice with the way the estimate rules are written.

the arguements towards generosity stem from the save dcs of the eye rays. if you are playing with 20th level characters, a beholder really doesn't stack up. just about everything will make the save vs the rays. unless the beholder has equipment that it can use to boost it's save dc. so while the cr of a beholder indicates that it will cause a party of four of that average level to use a certain part of the resources, as a character it doesn't stack up nearly so fierce.

unless you take my favorite prestige class in the game. beholder mage. you still have the 10 free actions a round, and you cast spells through your eye rays. up to a theoretical max of 10 spells every round. one of each level that you can cast. that is just insane. until you start thinking about the characters you will be playing with. proto-epic or actually epic. and you are a 1st level character with some hit dice and spell-likes that are targetted at challenging critters at half (or less) that level.

and beholder mages can learn spells as a wizard, but know them and cast them as a sorcerer. best parts of both wiz and sor. =D now that's my ideal of a spellcaster.

the at-will mage hand ability that allows them to manipulate spell components (and incidentally qualify for the monk class, too boot) is pretty handy, if you'll pardon the pun. ^^



so the rules as written come out with an ecl of 20-ish. which really isn't realistic for actual play. so it needs to be better balanced, but where is the question. probably 15-16th level would work out roughly-as a guess. and even then it would be behind the curve a bit.

CelestialBarbarian
08-29-2008, 08:39 PM
we hope that you get there! =D

about the beholder. that is one of the races that was not addressed anywhere as to it's ecl, by wotc. even in the lords of madness books. emailing customer service resulted in an "ask your dm" non-answer. using the rules from savage species to estimate it's ecl runs something like as follows: (i don't have all the books with me right now....)

first, there is it's flight and vision abilites. worth a couple of plusses there. technically. at the levels where a beholder is encountered, flight is less of an issue, but there it is. it's at-will spell-like abilities are worth a couple more. bite attack is worth maybe one.

and then there is the ten free actions per round. that's worth about +5 or +6. it could be argued that the spell-like abilites fold into that, but even so, you still add all that into the hit dice and you come up with 20 if you are generous, and 22-24 if you are super-strict. you might be able to justify 18-19 total if you really squeeze the rules, but that's pretty thin ice with the way the estimate rules are written.

the arguements towards generosity stem from the save dcs of the eye rays. if you are playing with 20th level characters, a beholder really doesn't stack up. just about everything will make the save vs the rays. unless the beholder has equipment that it can use to boost it's save dc. so while the cr of a beholder indicates that it will cause a party of four of that average level to use a certain part of the resources, as a character it doesn't stack up nearly so fierce.

unless you take my favorite prestige class in the game. beholder mage. you still have the 10 free actions a round, and you cast spells through your eye rays. up to a theoretical max of 10 spells every round. one of each level that you can cast. that is just insane. until you start thinking about the characters you will be playing with. proto-epic or actually epic. and you are a 1st level character with some hit dice and spell-likes that are targetted at challenging critters at half (or less) that level.

and beholder mages can learn spells as a wizard, but know them and cast them as a sorcerer. best parts of both wiz and sor. =D now that's my ideal of a spellcaster.

the at-will mage hand ability that allows them to manipulate spell components (and incidentally qualify for the monk class, too boot) is pretty handy, if you'll pardon the pun. ^^



so the rules as written come out with an ecl of 20-ish. which really isn't realistic for actual play. so it needs to be better balanced, but where is the question. probably 15-16th level would work out roughly-as a guess. and even then it would be behind the curve a bit.


I'm sorry to take so long to reply. Somehow, even though I set my control panel to email me when I get a response, I didn't see an email for this one. I just came back to add the third campaign teaser to my campaign invitation thread and noticed that you'd replied.

I see what you mean by the ECL. I'd never worried about the ECL of a beholder before as I've never run across anyone who wanted to play one. Where's that beholder prestige class? Is it in Lords of Madness? I don't own that book. Is it any good?