Wizards of the Coast

[Tamerath]

Okay so let me give you a little background about me before I ask my question to the fan base out there.

I'm 29, a DM and player of Dungeons of Dragons of about 15 years, and a writer that would honestly love nothing more than to find a full time job working at Wizards of the Coast and working on publishing my adventures and what not.

That being said....Wizards of the Coast has it's share of blunders. Lately I can't get on the site, the forums are a mess (*gasp* they erased my membership that I've had since I can remember and their message to me was....uh...just pick another name and move on about your life).

So I guess what I'm asking is if I'm the only one out here with a Love/Hate relationship with this company?

[Tomcat1066]

If by love/hate you mean love TO hate, then no ;)

Seriously, I've got that love/hate thing with WOTC too, so you're definitely not alone.

[Webhead]

Yep. Love/Hate is the perfect description of how I view WotC. They are responsible in a lot of ways for shaping my life into what it is today. In fact, they are inadvertently responsible for my discovery of RPGs as a hobby as I was introduced to D&D by a friend with whom I played Magic: The Gathering when it was in its infant years.

They have done a lot for (and held a big presence in) the gaming industry, even if their activities and publications have done as much to infuriate the hobby as to revitalize it. They have ushered in a second dynasty for D&D (love it or hate it) and they have ensured that the Star Wars gaming license has not faded into obscurity (even if it took them 3 tries and 7 years to get it right).

In short, yeah, I don't have much love for WotC as a company. But every once in a while they come out with something that seems to be worth buying and at least they're doing something to keep the industry's "big-name" properties alive and kicking (and screaming, and thrashing, and sobbing violently, etc...).

[Valdar]

I don't particularly love or hate the company. I had an opportunity to work for them once- I heard about a contract database admin position for an upcoming product, aced the interview, but turned down the job because first, I'd have a hellish commute through Boeing's morning traffic, and second, because I found out the project was going to be an online Pokemon product.

If it were D&D, yeah, I'd be right there in traffic every morning. But no, not for Pikachu, thankyouverymuch.

[Riftwalker]

^

That made me chuckle.

[Tamerath]

If it were D&D, yeah, I'd be right there in traffic every morning. But no, not for Pikachu, thankyouverymuch.

hilarious! :)

[ryan973]

But no, not for Pikachu, thankyouverymuch.


Are those things still around i was teasing my kid about them the other day and she did not know what i was tallking about. I kinda felt like a dork. So i crawled into bed and made a few NPCs for my game on saterday. That mad eme feel better.



Lol to answer the qeastion of the thread i have very similar feelings about Wizards at one end i try to remember that the guys making this stuff up are gamers like me. its easy to forget that when you open books filled with the same old crap and one good playable class for every five or six given.

My feelings became even worse after i got the new edition i had been looking foward too. Sure it disapointed me and i am sure that at least half the staff and developers are still having there 3.5 games at home with there freands but they did not set out to disapoint and for many they did just the oposite so hey!

As you can see i am very confused but then i fall back on my old moddo " Politics Aside I Like Gamers"

But hasbro can go to hell :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

[Maelstrom]

Love the writers and designers, they've come up with some amazingly well thought out stuff.

Not so much love for the corporation itself though. Some of their decisions (such as the GSL and poorly designed intro adventures) just make me go "huh?".


i am sure that at least half the staff and developers are still having there 3.5 games at home

Hard to say, but considering how much blood and sweat went into 4e I find it unlikely. Unlike the rest of us they know the reasons they made the decisions they made, and the 3 years of play-testing had a lot of people giving their say (look at the playtester credits).

[Valdar]

Are those things still around i was teasing my kid about them the other day and she did not know what i was tallking about. I kinda felt like a dork. So i crawled into bed and made a few NPCs for my game on saterday. That mad eme feel better.



How old is your kid? My 9 year old nephew is quite addicted.

[tesral]

So I guess what I'm asking is if I'm the only one out here with a Love/Hate relationship with this company?

Not in the least. They are a typical psychotic American company from whom the right hand giveth and the left hand screwith over.

And before anyone asks the observation about any company big enough to require a management team being psychotic is not mine, but a psychiatrist's. If you analyzes the behavior of any large American corporation as if they were an individual the profile is psychotic. If Lizards was a person, you would lock them away.

[Webhead]

Hard to say, but considering how much blood and sweat went into 4e I find it unlikely. Unlike the rest of us they know the reasons they made the decisions they made, and the 3 years of play-testing had a lot of people giving their say (look at the playtester credits).

Though, one has to consider the connection between an artist and his work as well. When you live and breathe something for so long, you tend to want to distance yourself from it once you've "set it free". The folks at Evil Hat Games have said this about their love-child, Spirit of the Century. After putting so much time and effort into developing the game, when they want to play an RPG, they tend to want to look elsewhere. Not because they aren't proud of or excited about their work, but because it's been resting on their minds for so long that it becomes difficult to look at it objectively. Believe me, if you work at a donut shop all day long, the last thing you want when you come home is a donut.

A lot of art is this way (I'm not saying 4e is "art" but it is "artistry"). I've heard, for instance, that Jack Nicholson doesn't like to watch his own films. I've heard that it's because what makes it on the movie screen does so little justice to all the time and hard work that was put into it. Having seen all that goes into the making of a movie, the final product is somewhat anticlimactic by comparison.

The designers of 4e might feel a bit of this as well. While I'm sure they probably play their share of 4e, I'm betting that more than a few still play past editions and plenty of non-D&D RPGs as well. Sometimes the artist needs to step away from his work for a while before he can look upon it with fresh eyes.

[Arch Lich Thoth-Amon]

I dont have a love/hate thing going but i wil admit that i have wondered, as of late, what the hell is going on over there.

Thoth-Amon

[Maelstrom]

The designers of 4e might feel a bit of this as well.

It would be interesting to see an unbaised survey of the designers/playtesters for sure. I'd love to talk with a late-coming playtester just to see what they and other's first reactions were and how they feel now.


i have wondered, as of late, what the hell is going on over there.

Amen!

I also wonder what's going on in their heads now... there are always naysayers with any new product (especially in the geek market frankly, who tend to hang on to their perceptions with tenacity). The controversy of 4e has reached far beyond that though. I imagine the corporate bosses that don't understand the D&D market are not well pleased after all the R&D money they've spent.

[ryan973]

I am not sure. It seems everywere you go the gamers are split by at least a third on this site and far more on soem other ( less on soem too). I know its there job and all but there gamers too and i would think that fourth is not everyones bag wether you work there or not. I would also be surprised if soem of them did not get together to play 2nd edition now and then. With the onset of fourth i have found myself missing 2nd now and then.

Hey off topic how do you create a sig.

[Grimwell]

Not in the least. They are just people who are trying to do a good job. We tend to think of companies as monolithic and sentient singular entities; but the truth is they are populated by normal folks who want to get paid to do a good job that they hopefully enjoy.

This does not mean they don't screw things up from time to time as a company; but I don't hate anyone there over any perceived slight I've had over the years. Every single person I've met who has ever worked for TSR or Wizards has been nothing but cool.

[tesral]

Not in the least. They are just people who are trying to do a good job. We tend to think of companies as monolithic and sentient singular entities; but the truth is they are populated by normal folks who want to get paid to do a good job that they hopefully enjoy.

This does not mean they don't screw things up from time to time as a company; but I don't hate anyone there over any perceived slight I've had over the years. Every single person I've met who has ever worked for TSR or Wizards has been nothing but cool.

And there lies the rub. The sentient plural nice people that make up the semi sentient singular that is the "corporate entity" form a whole that is buck nuts crazy, even if the plural sentient separate are the nicest people on earth.

No one at Lizards/Hasbro is foaming at the mouth crazy (I hope). Everyone likely genuinely wishes to make a good product and to please the customer the more customers to get.

But, something about the very structure of the "corporate entity" renders the whole said buck nuts crazy. Even though every person there is sane and sober as a Church Warden. It is the nature of the corporate animal. The larger the corporation, the worse this phenomena gets. Microsoft is crazier than Apple. GM is crazier than Ford (But not by much) As a result you can get times where one end is shaking your hand and the other is chewing your leg off, and neither knows the other is doing it, but both fully representing the Company in good faith.

You get things like GM tossing out thousands of mice and keyboards that work perfectly well to have a "unified corporate look" in the office when they are hemorrhaging money from low sales. True story, source left out to save the sucker's job.

As a result they will please you no end and piss you off in the same day for totally different reasons even for the same reasons. And there it is.

Lizards proper isn't too far up the Buck Nuts scale. Hasbro is much further up the scale. Size matters.

[InfoStorm]

Remember: The IQ of a group is the inverse of sum of their IQ's.

That is what happens at larger companies, and why they can do things that are completely insane. In Tesral's example, the person who made the decision of the keyboards was probably a bright individual, but because of the psycology of group dominance, a poor decision was made in a bid for some form of supremecy.

Somewhere in here the Wizards First Rule applies as well, but I need more coffee to think that hard.

[Tamerath]

Every single person I've met who has ever worked for TSR or Wizards has been nothing but cool.

I can agree with you here. Although I've never met an employee from Wizards I will say that I've always enjoyed the products they put out (for the most part) and feel like "Hey...they are gamers too and want to give their player base the same as what they would want."

I also agree with Tesral and a few others though...that corporations can make some strange business decisions. Perhaps they are just really really new at this online thing and haven't a clue how to do it...or that they need a new admin for their message boards....who knows. I do know that every time they give a "preview" or demonstration of their online tools it just pisses me off. They are like, "Oh...this is SO awesome. Everyone at the office is LOVING this or that feature. THIS IS THE BEST IDEA EVER"....yet....why isn't it out yet? They say it's not ready but if that's the case why is everyone and their mother's using it. Beta testing my Arse!

[Stormhound]

Okay, folks. In understanding corporate culture, you need really only understand one basic human principle that applies pretty much everywhere:

The behavior that is rewarded is the behavior that is repeated.

The set of behaviors that is rewarded is radically different at different locations in a company. If customer service reps are scored on the average length of their phone calls, and punished if they go too long, what do you suppose the result will be? It's the crazy mishmash of varied...and frequently competing if not opposing...demands and rewards that makes companies do mind-bogglingly strange things from the POV of the casual observer. Sales doesn't care how good the product is, they get rewarded for units sold. Accounting gets rewarded for tracking and minimizing expenses. Design gets rewarded for putting out a reasonable facsimile of the desired product within time and budget constraints. Upper management gets rewarded for revenues and profits and increasing shareholder value. And marketing gets rewarded for...well, don't ask me, I still don't understand marketing, and I pray that I never will. Add to that individual power plays (perceived rewards for control), and it can be a wonder when anything works at all. Corporations can make the most dysfunctional families look like smoothly-running machines, just by virtue of the hundreds or thousands of complex relationships that exist.

Been there, done that, seen my share of craniorectal inversions. Some days, it's a miracle when you get anything useful done at all.

[Maelstrom]

<whole post>

Very well put!

Small companies have their share of problems too though: each individual has more influence on the whole, so if you have a opinionated dominating personality (which I've seen regularly in the smaller businesses I've been a part of), their opinion is the only thing that really counts. At least in larger corporations they have a boss which has a bigger boss, so things are more likely to get sorted out (assuming at least someone up there is sane). Bigger corporations need to be self-correcting to stay in business.

Even though each entity within the corporation has different rewarded behavior (as well put by Stormhound), in the end each is affected by customer satisfaction. Satisfied customers buy more, increasing sales. Satisfied customers bring their friends (especially in this market which is socially based). More sales and bigger market share rewards the sales folks. Resulting higher stock prices reward the corporate folks.

WoTC, just coming out of a design phase that perhaps didn't do a good job of testing the water of its 4e audience, now has some serious decisions to make. They now either make poor decisions (which is possible), or they go back and figure out where they went wrong and figure out how to correct it (more likely in my opinion).

One thing is for sure, they've certainly gotten a lot of press and buzz if nothing else...

[Engar]

Am I wrong in thinking 4e is selling like crazy? That is the most important "feedback" to trump all others.

[tesral]

Am I wrong in thinking 4e is selling like crazy? That is the most important "feedback" to trump all others.

Sales figures have nothing to do with how insane the corporate entity is. They just is.

[Engar]

Sales figures have nothing to do with how insane the corporate entity is. They just is.

Ah, but if crazy got them numbers then crazy gets fed while poor sane becomes the runt of the litter.

[tesral]

Ah, but if crazy got them numbers then crazy gets fed while poor sane becomes the runt of the litter.

You're missing the point. All corporations are insane, rich or poor. It has nothing to do with wealth or success, and everything to do with the corporate structure.

The larger the corporation the more diverse the goals of the various factions within and the more insane it behaves. Accounting wants to save money, Marketing wants to spend it, Sales is making promises R&D can't deliver. Production is trying to make it good, and Shipping wants it now. Procurement is buying boxes for the new product the size of which no one knows yet. Every department wants more people and HR is cutting into the bone. Meanwhile the Boss is blathering a corporate Mission Statement no one understands or cares about.

Dilbert is the truth.

[Engar]

I choose to remain whimsical about it. Laughter is the best way to avoid crying.

[Arch Lich Thoth-Amon]

Not in the least. They are just people who are trying to do a good job. We tend to think of companies as monolithic and sentient singular entities; but the truth is they are populated by normal folks who want to get paid to do a good job that they hopefully enjoy.

This does not mean they don't screw things up from time to time as a company; but I don't hate anyone there over any perceived slight I've had over the years. Every single person I've met who has ever worked for TSR or Wizards has been nothing but cool.
Even though i wonder that the hell is going on over there every once in a while, this in no way suggests that i think they are working with any kind of malice(too harsh a word but i am at a loss to think of another) or incompetence.

They are, as grimwell suggests, just folks like you and i, trying to do the gest job they can as well as endeavoring to put out the best play material possible.

Thoth-Amon

[boulet]

Tesral had me smile on this one. Especially "Sales is making promises R&D can't deliver" which I have witnessed more than once.

My experience is that I tend to prefer games with a strong author personality, either because written by a single guy or he has final word of what is published. Corporation is often contradictory to this quality that reflects in the game coherency. I see this coherency as one of the greater goods of a game. The game system may be flawed here and there, or the setting could be less than perfect. But I usually find this type of authorship provides awesome gameplay more efficiently, plus it makes a better read.

[tesral]

I choose to remain whimsical about it. Laughter is the best way to avoid crying.

If you don't you will kill someone. My Wife works for a Major Bank. (Identity withheld to save Her job.) I hear thses wonderful Dilbert material tales all the time.

[agoraderek]

Tesral had me smile on this one. Especially "Sales is making promises R&D can't deliver" which I have witnessed more than once.

My experience is that I tend to prefer games with a strong author personality, either because written by a single guy or he has final word of what is published. Corporation is often contradictory to this quality that reflects in the game coherency. I see this coherency as one of the greater goods of a game. The game system may be flawed here and there, or the setting could be less than perfect. But I usually find this type of authorship provides awesome gameplay more efficiently, plus it makes a better read.

i do get the impression 4e has a "written by committee" feel. it may be a "better mousetrap", but it isn't nearly as fun a read as the gygax 1e stuff...

[tesral]

i do get the impression 4e has a "written by committee" feel. it may be a "better mousetrap", but it isn't nearly as fun a read as the gygax 1e stuff...

Fun? Please. 2ed reads much better. Gygaz was in the middle of "how important Am I" with AD&D. 1st is turgid to the point of black hole mass. Prose so absorbed in its utter importance it threatens to break the shelf with the shear weight of the words. I know, I recently referenced said edition to clarify some points. Awful stuff, simply awful. It started an era of game writing I call "Tsrish". The game was fun, the books anything but.

[agoraderek]

Fun? Please. 2ed reads much better. Gygaz was in the middle of "how important Am I" with AD&D. 1st is turgid to the point of black hole mass. Prose so absorbed in its utter importance it threatens to break the shelf with the shear weight of the words. I know, I recently referenced said edition to clarify some points. Awful stuff, simply awful. It started an era of game writing I call "Tsrish". The game was fun, the books anything but.

hey, i liked the 1e dmg! :D

my point is, the 1st ed dmg had one voice (whether you liked the tone or not ;) ), and, you're right, the 2nd ed dmg WAS a joy to read (grubb wrote it, right?), but the 3e book reads like stereo instructions, and, after 29 years in, the 4e book doesn't have a lot to offer as far as insight goes. but, 4e is meant to draw in new players, so i can let that slide. but, even then, it doesn't have the "voice" like the 1 and 2 did...

[tesral]

hey, i liked the 1e dmg! :D

my point is, the 1st ed dmg had one voice (whether you liked the tone or not ;) ), and, you're right, the 2nd ed dmg WAS a joy to read (grubb wrote it, right?), but the 3e book reads like stereo instructions, and, after 29 years in, the 4e book doesn't have a lot to offer as far as insight goes. but, 4e is meant to draw in new players, so i can let that slide. but, even then, it doesn't have the "voice" like the 1 and 2 did...


Opinion may differ as to how good the writing is, but I have to agree here. 3e has a voice, like stereo instructions, or a textbook. Decent system, not a good read. 2e and 1e have that unified "voice".

Of the lot for reading ,I'll take 2e. It was over the pompous.

[Talmek]

I dont have a love/hate thing going but i wil admit that i have wondered, as of late, what the hell is going on over there.

Thoth-Amon

Reviewing some dying threads and this statement alone brings it all back for me. However, some recent developments (Revising GSL, namely) tends to make me think that perhaps they have realized that they better get a hold of themselves quick before people start walking away.

[tesral]

Reviewing some dying threads and this statement alone brings it all back for me. However, some recent developments (Revising GSL, namely) tends to make me think that perhaps they have realized that they better get a hold of themselves quick before people start walking away.

It has been revised from the give use a kill switch but don';t worry we will use it responsibly? When where? Me want to see. It would be a decent development. As it stand Lizards is in that deep dark and evil place where corporate lawyers feed on the living bodies of helpless infants.

[boulet]

Only a declaration of intention (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4news/20080811) so far :)

[tesral]

Only a declaration of intention (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4news/20080811) so far :)

Road to Hell paved with and all that. I'll believe when I read.

[Arch Lich Thoth-Amon]

I wish that WOTC would sell the DnD rights. Enough is enough. They could have done much more with 4.0, which tells me that a 5.0 is on the horizon, and look how they handled their licenses (Wizards of the Coast announces a forthcoming revision to the Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition Game System License (GSL) and System Reference Document (SRD)), tells me that their priorities are out of whack.

Thoth-Amon

[agoraderek]

I wish that WOTC would sell the DnD rights. Enough is enough. They could have done much more with 4.0, which tells me that a 5.0 is on the horizon, and look how they handled their licenses (Wizards of the Coast announces a forthcoming revision to the Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition Game System License (GSL) and System Reference Document (SRD)), tells me that their priorities are out of whack.

Thoth-Amon

hasbro wouldn't sell the IP. they make too much on the minis and video game licensing...

[Valdar]

hasbro wouldn't sell the IP. they make too much on the minis and video game licensing...

From what I've heard, D&D is the fourth most profitable IP that WOTC owns. After MtG, D&D miniatures, and the novels.

So, really, we're looking at their toy. 4e is basically their house rules for playing 3e.

[Tamerath]

So they did something today that made me a little angry again. lol So, what was it? Last week they said they were lowering the pricing plan...I jumped for joy! FINALLY they listened to us. and then....today....they said the lower price was ONLY for the web content and that if you want the online stuff it's still going to be 10.00 (if you buy the year package) 15 dollars a month for monthly! While I'm still saying that's not bad...this back and forth crap is starting to wear on me.

[agoraderek]

From what I've heard, D&D is the fourth most profitable IP that WOTC owns. After MtG, D&D miniatures, and the novels.

So, really, we're looking at their toy. 4e is basically their house rules for playing 3e.

well, the minis and novels fall under D&D IP. can't sell D&D minis and Forgotten Realms/Eberron novels if you dont own or license the D&D IP ;)

[Chi]

Am I wrong in thinking 4e is selling like crazy? That is the most important "feedback" to trump all others.

I don't doubt they are selling like crazy we went and bought them about a week ago and returned a couple of days ago.

[Talmek]

I don't doubt they are selling like crazy we went and bought them about a week ago and returned a couple of days ago.

Am I to understand that you returned 4e product?

That's it. Someone get Hasbro on the phone right now! We'll just sue everyone who complains about our product for slander! :D

I've got my suspicions right now as to what WotC is planning in terms of their DnD future(s), but I don't think they're going to sell any time soon.

[DMMike]

::a gentle voice in your head repeats softly::

...3E is sustainable...save your money...resist the marketers......3E is sustainable...