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Valdar
07-08-2008, 11:52 PM
In the interest of putting off working on tomorrow night's game, here's one that came up last session-

Can an attached stirge be flanked? If so, how? Do you flank the party member that it's attached to, since they share a square? Or can the attached party member participate in the flanking, since he's between the stirge and the attacker? "Close combat" is gone from the rules, but certain monsters can invoke it, so it's not really covered in the basic rules. Damn this combat-lite version!

Flanking is key for triggering Rogue powers via combat advantage, so there's more than a +2 to hit at stake here.

I ruled it that no, you can't flank an attached stirge, because flanking is about distracting the opponent by surrounding it, and a feeding stirge is just sitting there sucking blood whatever you might be doing around it.

agoraderek
07-08-2008, 11:55 PM
hmmmm, i think i'd have to agree. furthermore (and im just hashing this out, not using game logic), since striges kinda make you want to try and throw it off and you're probably jumping around screaming "get it off! get it OFF!!!", it may actually be HARDER to hit, with a chance of hitting the afflicted character as well. just thinkin'...

ithil
07-09-2008, 02:35 AM
I think of flanking as gaining facing advantage against an enemy (hence the advantage of fighting back-to-back). My house rule is that if the attacked creature has a vulnerable back, and if two attackers are on opposite sides and threaten opportunity attacks, those attackers gain flanking. (Corollary: A creature with Threatening Reach can participate in a flank without moving adjacent.)

If anything, a stirge attached to someone is going to be leave its backside more vulnerable, since its freedom of movement is restricted as long as it's attached. That disadvantage is offset by the shouting, squirming cover that the stirge has just obtained, but if someone moved behind the stirge, or if two people took up positions on opposite sides, I'd give them flanking. The stirge has effective cover, but it's also leaving itself vulnerable by restricting its movement.

I don't see any indication in 4e that a stirge moves into the square of the creature it grabbed, but here's how I'd rule same-square:

A, B: Party members
X: Party member with stirge attached from the left

AX
(A and X flank the stirge)

AXB
(A and X flank the stirge, but B is too far to the right)

A
X
(No flanking)

A
X
B
(A and B flank the stirge)

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
07-09-2008, 02:35 AM
In the interest of putting off working on tomorrow night's game, here's one that came up last session-

Can an attached stirge be flanked? If so, how? Do you flank the party member that it's attached to, since they share a square? Or can the attached party member participate in the flanking, since he's between the stirge and the attacker? "Close combat" is gone from the rules, but certain monsters can invoke it, so it's not really covered in the basic rules. Damn this combat-lite version!

Flanking is key for triggering Rogue powers via combat advantage, so there's more than a +2 to hit at stake here.

I ruled it that no, you can't flank an attached stirge, because flanking is about distracting the opponent by surrounding it, and a feeding stirge is just sitting there sucking blood whatever you might be doing around it.
Not only would i not allow flanking, i would also increase the odds of a "friendly fire casualy." Try to hit something with your sword w/o hitting your buddy, who's jumping up and down like a madman, with any accuracy. I'm not saying i'm right, i'm just saying that is how id run the scenario.

Thoth-Amon

Dimthar
07-09-2008, 10:08 AM
Not only would i not allow flanking, i would also increase the odds of a "friendly fire casualy." Try to hit something with your sword w/o hitting your buddy, who's jumping up and down like a madman, with any accuracy. I'm not saying i'm right, i'm just saying that is how id run the scenario.

I will give the Stirge at least a 180o Vision, once it attaches, I would rule it "ready" its movement in case someone wants to kill it.

I also imagine the Stirge is part of a swarm and there are others flying around, giving some kind of cover. So in that case I would rule there is no flanking.

And I agree with Thoth-Amon, unless the victim is perfectly still, I'll give a 50% chance of a friendly fire. The safest way would be to hit it with a gauntlet.

.

Valdar
07-09-2008, 11:01 AM
I don't see any indication in 4e that a stirge moves into the square of the creature it grabbed

Argh- I really need to read more carefully. Yes, rules as written, they don't enter your square, so it's more like a vampire sucking your blood than a mosquito. I think if I wanted the mosquito effect, I'd have to recast the monster as a Swarm.

In fact, according to the grab, stirges are large enough to immobilize their target unless the target Escapes.

Another thought: "Move a grabbed target" is a Str (8 for stirge) vs. Fort attack, and they can move you half their speed (fly 6) on a success... With sufficient "Aid Another" actions, a bunch of them could carry off one of the weaker characters in the party (though their Aid Another check would be at a -1, so 11 or better to assist and grant a +2 to the attack, so they'd need a real crowd to pull that off...)

As far as "friendy fire" goes, I'm trying not to make up rules this early on, but I think if someone said "I'm not being careful about missing my friend", I'd remove the +5 to the stirge's defense, and say that if you missed by more than 5, you hit your friend.

ithil
07-09-2008, 11:21 AM
Another thought: "Move a grabbed target" is a Str (8 for stirge) vs. Fort attack, and they can move you half their speed (fly 6) on a success... With sufficient "Aid Another" actions, a bunch of them could carry off one of the weaker characters in the party (though their Aid Another check would be at a -1, so 11 or better to assist and grant a +2 to the attack, so they'd need a real crowd to pull that off...)

Oooh, I didn't think about trying that. Our dragonborn fighter managed to acid breath a door, barrel through it, fail reflex vs a pit (scale mail is not conducive to a happy outcome here), and then get swarmed by four stirges, three of which attached. I'm not sure how I'd have penalized them if they'd attempted to fly off with a 280 lb fighter.

As an aside, I let him escape from all three at the same time, but with a separate check for each. He managed it handily and rolled a 20 on his jump, a good thing when you've been dropped to 2 HP.

cplmac
07-10-2008, 05:55 PM
hmmmm, i think i'd have to agree. furthermore (and im just hashing this out, not using game logic), since striges kinda make you want to try and throw it off and you're probably jumping around screaming "get it off! get it OFF!!!", it may actually be HARDER to hit, with a chance of hitting the afflicted character as well. just thinkin'...


Although my version of choice is 2E, I am going to give my 2 cents worth on this.

I would say that anyone except the person it is attached to could try to flank the stirge. Using the scenerio above of agoraderek's, I would say there is more likely the chance that the PC will get hit instead of the stirge. I would probably require a natural 20 to be successful.

Maelstrom
07-11-2008, 06:42 AM
I would probably require a natural 20 to be successful.

Eeek! A stirge isn't little. Its in the small category, which puts it in the range of 2-4 feet long. It may be harder to hit without injuring the PC its attached to, but I don't think 1 and 20 chance would fit. To each his own opinion though...

cplmac
07-12-2008, 05:59 PM
Eeek! A stirge isn't little. Its in the small category, which puts it in the range of 2-4 feet long. It may be harder to hit without injuring the PC its attached to, but I don't think 1 and 20 chance would fit. To each his own opinion though...

I based that decission on the person jumping around and everything. Now, if you can get the person to stand still, then it would be no problem. Of course, there is always the range of amount of moving that would give varying degrees of success.

Maelstrom
07-12-2008, 07:06 PM
I based that decission on the person jumping around and everything. Now, if you can get the person to stand still, then it would be no problem. Of course, there is always the range of amount of moving that would give varying degrees of success.

This is evoking so many random images in my mind.

Fighter: "Augh! Get this thing off me!" **flailing around, stirge attached to his arm**

Rouge: "Hold still and maybe I'll have a chance to!" **dagger at the ready, looking for an opening**

Fighter: "Ok, ok, just get it off! Just don't stab me!" **cringes, biting hard to bear the pain**

Rouge: **tounge out in concentration, he stabs**

Fighter: "Ouch!!! You'll pay for that!"

Stirge: **Laughs hysterically**

cplmac
07-13-2008, 08:04 PM
This is evoking so many random images in my mind.

Fighter: "Augh! Get this thing off me!" **flailing around, stirge attached to his arm**

Rouge: "Hold still and maybe I'll have a chance to!" **dagger at the ready, looking for an opening**

Fighter: "Ok, ok, just get it off! Just don't stab me!" **cringes, biting hard to bear the pain**

Rouge: **tounge out in concentration, he stabs**

Fighter: "Ouch!!! You'll pay for that!"

Stirge: **Laughs hysterically**


Hence my reason for such a hard chance to hit.

Valdar
07-13-2008, 08:49 PM
Hence my reason for such a hard chance to hit.

If it were a little, mosquito-like creature, I'd ask for a Will-defense roll from the afflicted party member to "hold still" (as cplmac said), at which point it would be much easier to deal with the stirge. On a failure, yeah, you aren't hitting the thing. Or things, if I convert the stock Stirge to a swarm monster.