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ronpyatt
06-23-2008, 10:30 PM
I read that some folk's books are smearing when rubbed. Is this true? I tried that with mine (not mine, borrowed from my bf), and I couldn't get mine to smear. (I think I got a defective one that would not smear! -note: sarcasm)

Did your 4e D&D book smear?

Igbutton
06-23-2008, 11:39 PM
I've tried out a few at my local comic shop and they all smeared. But according too WotC they used the same ink and paper for 4th as they did for 3rd, supposed to be individual circumstances such as pH, what's on your hands, climate that sort of thing.

tesral
06-24-2008, 12:56 AM
The ink should not smear, ever. It's just poor quality.

Grimwell
06-24-2008, 01:07 AM
Mine has smeared once, when I had grease on my thumb from food. Silly me.

This also happened to my 3E books.

It has also happened to books that aren't even gaming related. Life goes on.

tesral
06-24-2008, 01:21 AM
Mine has smeared once, when I had grease on my thumb from food. Silly me.

This also happened to my 3E books.

It has also happened to books that aren't even gaming related. Life goes on.


It's still low quality printing, when and wherever it happens. I can understand magazines, they are not printed to last the ages. I expect more from books.

If I ever have a book do that I'm taking the bloody thing back. Subject aside.

It is over all disappointing as D&D also introduced some of the best binding on game books that has ever been seen. Slick has been going up, but the over all quality of the books as been going down since the AD&D Unearthed Arcana. After spoiling us with sewn bindings we got a book where pages where known to fall out. It was but a harbinger.

While subject quality has come and gone, print quality has sunk as prices rise.

I would gladly go back to so-so art and all black and white printing to get sewn bindings again.

agoraderek
06-24-2008, 01:22 AM
the most durable books in the D&D line will always be the original AD&D books. i was in a local gaming store that has multiple copies of the original phb, mm, and dmg, well used, that STILL feel as solid as the first ones i bought in 79/80...

of course, they were in b&w, and bound in the days when books were meant to last....

agoraderek
06-24-2008, 01:24 AM
I would gladly go back to so-so art and all black and white printing to get sewn bindings again.

hey, d.a. trampier was AWESOME!!!

Igbutton
06-24-2008, 02:02 AM
In my experience the smearing is really overblown. I really had to try and smear the ink, normal use of just running my finger along the page to read did nothing. And when it did smear it really wasn't all that noticeable.

I just tried out my 3.5 php and it smears too. But once again I have to try and do it.

Just handle the books with care, you know the way you should, and you won't have any problems.

ryan973
06-24-2008, 08:47 AM
take your finger and hold it down just hard enough to move qourter back and fourth and then rup back and foruth by the ten tiem across you will see that the ink has completly smered down the page. niot a big deal until you have had the book for a few years and such then it will look like crap. As a profesional printer however i can tell you they did nt use the same paper or ink stock as for 3.5 that is just not true. Howver the cover effect they used on fourth was awsome!

Farcaster
06-24-2008, 09:58 AM
Admittedly, I didn't "rub back and forth ten times" on my book, but I haven't seen any smearing whatsoever on in mine from normal use. I haven't seen it in any of my third edition books either. It sounds like you have to really work at it to get it to smear. And that brings to mind a little anecdote. A man goes to the doctor and says, "Hey, Doc, it hurts when I do this..." And what did his doctor reply? "Then stop doing that!"

tesral
06-24-2008, 11:05 AM
It sounds like you have to really work at it to get it to smear.

It should not do it at all. And the amount of work required varies from person to person, again ph levels and oil on the skin.

I am very careful with my books. Most likely I would never smear the ink. However, there is no rationalization, it is just rock bottom quality. Frankly saddens me.

ronpyatt
06-24-2008, 05:30 PM
Do you own the 4ed books, or has someone given you a copy?
This is a thread for folks that actually have the books. I know it doesn't explicitly say that, but I just thought you'd like to know before you start chirping. Oh, wait! Too late.

The one PHB I tried did not smear when I rubbed really hard. (Perhaps some battery acid will do the trick, but I'm not willing to put such a fine work of art to the test.)

TotemChakra
06-24-2008, 09:46 PM
Mine so far have not smeared and I have used them many times to read over and over. To be honest, even if it does smear, I'm not going to try it was so ever. I keep my books in safe places and make sure the room is at a fine climate. Room temperature at best. My old 3.0 player's handbook has wrinkle pages and smears in it. But that's only because my hands were sweaty and the oil on my fingers must have gotten the ink wet. Oh well. My advice is to just use your books not too much, or at least touch the edges and not the ink! XD Still, I agree with you tersal. Books shouldn't have to smear nor show poor quality. I expect my books to last me a few generations.

Engar
06-24-2008, 10:13 PM
LOL, all you crazy anal book people. Like an old friend of mine who I swear had to guess the end of each line in a novel because he refused to open the book for fear of the binding (even paperback, the goof).

Just so you know my books are treated like absolute crap. I drop them, throw them, set drinks on them, dogear or even fold pages as a bookmark, cram stacks of books on top of them while they are open, and usually do my best to crack the binding before I even read anything just so when I open the book it stays wide and easy to see. Since everyone else was sharing how dainty they are, I wanted to make sure to toss out an opposing view.

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
06-24-2008, 10:14 PM
I havent as of yet smeared my books. Of course, it wouldnt surprise me if they smear were my fingers were wet or oily. Just gotta be careful. But as with all my editions' books, heavy use will take its toll.

Thoth-Amon

TotemChakra
06-24-2008, 10:16 PM
LOL, all you crazy anal book people. Like an old friend of mine who I swear had to guess the end of each line in a novel because he refused to open the book for fear of the binding (even paperback, the goof).

Just so you know my books are treated like absolute crap. I drop them, throw them, set drinks on them, dogear or even fold pages as a bookmark, cram stacks of books on top of them while they are open, and usually do my best to crack the binding before I even read anything just so when I open the book it stays wide and easy to see. Since everyone else was sharing how dainty they are, I wanted to make sure to toss out an opposing view.
Sir, you make me faint! XD Yeah, but I just like to keep some of my books in good condition. A lot of my books are paperback because really, I don't like spending a lot of money (Meh, I don't get paid a lot for my age either). But yeah. We all have a book demon inside all of us ;)

Engar
06-24-2008, 10:25 PM
I don't buy a lot of books either and I use the same ones even if I have a duplicate (usually inherited from departing players). My 2e PHB has seldom a page still attached to binding. Now my Adv books show some wear, but aside from where I might have used them under paper I cut with an exacto knife or some such, they are solid.

I bet that last part made some of you cry.

EDIT: I should say I don't buy replacement books, I do buy quite a few books in general.

tesral
06-24-2008, 11:16 PM
Dainty? Hardly, I use my books, but I don't have broken spines or folded pages. I do have a paperback I bought in 2nd grade. Still in pretty good shape in all that the paper is starting to brown.

It is possible to use books and still keep them looking good.

My old 1st AD&D books took the most abuse. I was traveling to games more often than not and they got the crap beat out of them stuff spilled on them and a great deal of wear and tear to the covers. Clear vinyl tape around the edges is more common than not. 2e hardly has any wear. They seldom left the house. 3e even less so and being newer to boot. All are intact however, not torn or missing pages. Even my "ultra fragile" Unearthed Arcana is in one piece.

agoraderek
06-25-2008, 12:50 AM
Dainty? Hardly, I use my books, but I don't have broken spines or folded pages. I do have a paperback I bought in 2nd grade. Still in pretty good shape in all that the paper is starting to brown.

It is possible to use books and still keep them looking good.

My old 1st AD&D books took the most abuse. I was traveling to games more often than not and they got the crap beat out of them stuff spilled on them and a great deal of wear and tear to the covers. Clear vinyl tape around the edges is more common than not. 2e hardly has any wear. They seldom left the house. 3e even less so and being newer to boot. All are intact however, not torn or missing pages. Even my "ultra fragile" Unearthed Arcana is in one piece.

yeah, they knew how to bind them back then :)

i was at a flgs the other day, they had lots of 1st ed rules books for sale, and all of the unearthed arcanas (they had five) were loose in the middle pages. i think you just got one of the few "good ones"!

Grimwell
06-25-2008, 12:53 AM
However, there is no rationalization, it is just rock bottom quality.

Compared to what?

I have a complete set of 1E core books, with duplicates. Some are still in the binding, others have pages falling out, smears, and tears.

I have a complete set of 2E core books, with duplicates. Some are still in the binding, others have pages falling out, smears, and tears.

I have a complete set of 3E core books, with duplicates. Some are still in the binding, others have pages falling out, smears, and tears.

I have a complete set of 3.5E core books, with duplicates. Some are still in the binding, others have pages falling out, smears, and tears.

I have a complete set of 4E core books, and they are near pristine because I have yet to really break them in. Call me in a year.

I have treated each edition, exactly the same. I do my best to take care of them, but they aren't sacrosanct. They are books meant for a game with friends. Each edition has likely seen different publishers, and none held up any better or worse than the others.

I call attention to this because your description of the current edition as rock bottom quality is BS. Cheapass Games pride themselves on printing with rock bottom quality. That's a valid comparison and 4E holds up as better than rock bottom.

You may have valid concerns about the 4E books; but lets be realistic. They are not scraping the bottom of the barrel -- and to imply as such is throwing extra drama sauce on top of the actual quality of the books.

agoraderek
06-25-2008, 01:01 AM
I have a complete set of 1E core books, with duplicates. Some are still in the binding, others have pages falling out, smears, and tears.

other than unearthed arcana, all of my 1st ed books were a tad worn, but still in very good shape after 20 years of CONSTANT use. the only reason they're not in my book case right now is i have yet to find any book impervious to a house fire...

i only had the core books for 2nd ed, and didnt really use them much, so they were in near perfect condition, but, like i said, they were hardly touched. didnt do well in fire, either, im afraid...

my 3rd ed books seem to be holding up well enough. i just borrowed the core 4e books from a friend for research purposes, so i wasn't about to start smear experiments, but they didnt smear from casual browsing.

still, the core 1st ed books were easily the best bound and most solid rpg books i've ever owned, and the page stock was much thicker. the second printing of 2nd ed started the slick page stuff, but i guess they had to, with the increased use of color plates and accenting.

Farcaster
06-25-2008, 01:01 AM
Here, here! Agreed 100%, Grimwell.

tesral
06-25-2008, 01:25 AM
You may have valid concerns about the 4E books; but lets be realistic. They are not scraping the bottom of the barrel -- and to imply as such is throwing extra drama sauce on top of the actual quality of the books.

As you wish, it's first rate-third rate printing using the thinest of paper and the poorest of ink. A printer's description, not mine.

Yes this has been going on for some time. The books are not made as well as they use to be. We get color printing, but there are obvious trade offs in binding and paper quality. To do two sided color on thin paper you must use coated papers. Coated papers do not absorb the ink, that lets you print on both sides without bleed through, but it makes it possible to smear the ink.

And how did you smear a set of 1e AD&D books? They are printed on uncoated paper. I have Coke stains, pages darkened with handling, and covers puckered from liquids, but no smears of the ink.

Skunkape
06-25-2008, 07:22 AM
I have to say that I'm not happy with the lack of quality that some manufacturers are using lately with their books. I bought a Mongoose edition of RuneQuest a little while ago and within a week, the pages were coming loose from the binding and actually coming out of the book! I ended up running a bead of glue down the back of the pages and trying to get them to stick to the binding again.

This is a hard cover book and I haven't even read through it once!!!

Granted, not all publishers are doing this, but if I get something with the lack of quality that I got from this book, you know that I won't be buying anything else from Mongoose anytime soon. While I don't plan on purchasing any of the 4e books currently, if the same were to happen with one of those books, or I were to get ink smears while reading the books, you would be sure that I'd never buy any more of their books.

To give you an idea of how well I take care of my books, I have grade school year books that still look almost new. I have encyclopedias from the 60s that still look new. Also, I have the DnD books, the small set that were the original 3, where they then came out with Greyhawk, etc, that are in near mint condition. So I'm careful with my books and when one starts to fall apart like the RuneQuest one, it's because the book quality is really bad!

Moritz
06-25-2008, 07:28 AM
Mine doesn't smear at all, it's PDF.

Webhead
06-25-2008, 10:27 AM
The absolute best quality RPG book that I own has to be the Star Wars D6 Second Edition Revised and Expanded corebook. It has seen steady use indoors and outdoors, shared between all players at the "table", ranging in age from 10 to 39, has been accidentally sat on (leaving the small remnants of a crease in the front cover), has been placed in xerox machines, and toted around under-arm and in book bags for 13 years. The page edges are speckled with dirt and finger prints from 13 years of use and the corners of the cover are well rounded and worn, but there is no fading, smudging or tearing to be found, the cover is fantastically solid and there is not a loose page or worn binding to be found. Absolutely top-notch!

My soft-cover Star Wars Gamemaster Handbook that is just as old however, has not faired so well...:(

tesral
06-25-2008, 10:34 AM
This is a hard cover book and I haven't even read through it once!!!


The problem isn't just Lizards. I would be sending that book back myself.

Moritz
06-25-2008, 10:37 AM
The absolute best quality RPG book that I own has to be the Star Wars D6 Second Edition Revised and Expanded corebook....

My soft-cover Star Wars Gamemaster Handbook that is just as old however, has not faired so well...:(

I hear PDF stands up pretty well too.

tesral
06-25-2008, 10:41 AM
I hear PDF stands up pretty well too.

As long as you file system does.

Printing the Bureau 13 d20 book right now. It will not smear. Gotta love Color Laser. I'll run the puppy to Kinkos when done and get a spiral bind so it will lay flat. I don't think my comb binder will handle it.

Webhead
06-25-2008, 10:54 AM
Printing the Bureau 13 d20 book right now. It will not smear. Gotta love Color Laser. I'll run the puppy to Kinkos when done and get a spiral bind so it will lay flat. I don't think my comb binder will handle it.

BTW, I've seen the "print and spiral bind" done for game books at Kinko's before. Do you know how much that generally costs to have done, Tesral?

I have a few PDF RPGs that I'd like to give that treatment, but I'm curious exactly how much it would set me back.

tesral
06-25-2008, 11:07 AM
BTW, I've seen the "print and spiral bind" done for game books at Kinko's before. Do you know how much that generally costs to have done, Tesral?

I have a few PDF RPGs that I'd like to give that treatment, but I'm curious exactly how much it would set me back.

Give them a call. Their website is unhelpful in terms of price. It is has been a while since I used their binding services, and I used tape bind at that. I have a comb binder that covers 99% of my needs.

Tamerath
06-25-2008, 01:56 PM
LOL, all you crazy anal book people. Like an old friend of mine who I swear had to guess the end of each line in a novel because he refused to open the book for fear of the binding (even paperback, the goof).

Just so you know my books are treated like absolute crap. I drop them, throw them, set drinks on them, dogear or even fold pages as a bookmark, cram stacks of books on top of them while they are open, and usually do my best to crack the binding before I even read anything just so when I open the book it stays wide and easy to see. Since everyone else was sharing how dainty they are, I wanted to make sure to toss out an opposing view.

that's awesome lol :)

Engar
06-25-2008, 06:00 PM
I wonder if the "deluxe" PHB, DMG & MM that come out in October are better quality.

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
06-25-2008, 06:32 PM
I wonder if the "deluxe" PHB, DMG & MM that come out in October are better quality.
One could only hope.

Thoth-Amon

Grimwell
06-25-2008, 09:58 PM
I've no idea how my 1E books smeared. It's not horrid, or on every page, but it's also 20 years ago. =)

wizarddog
06-27-2008, 04:33 AM
Well, the books I recieved on the 24th did not have any obvious defects and I tried smearing the ink by touching it with nothing. The smearing could easily be done if you have oils on your hands--especially sun block or hand lotion.

There is a good possibility that the press run was a bad job screwed up by the printer. Trust me, it happens alot. It could be they run it on the wrong paper they were suppose to and still shipped it out.

If your book is wearing out before you got any real use out it, you can always try to go back to the retailer you bought from for an exchange. Technically, it's a defected product. It is worth a shot--esp if you bought it off the inflated shelf price! Getting Amazon to exchange may be tricky but not impossible.

My PHB 3.5 has loose center pages--mainly in the combat section :). When I had my old 1st PHB the spine would come off but the book still was bound witht he cover. That's a tough bind. I find binding tend to be the issue with current books. They try to get away with simple glue binds on thin paper and it just doesn't last--esp for a book your going to open and have open a lot.

Aedes
06-27-2008, 08:46 PM
I don't know if its mutant sweat glands or a poor job fixing the print to the page, but on several of the pages of my DMG the text has smeared just from a stray thumb while turning the page.
I've only been able to repeat this with the text, and only on a few pages. Images and any print not in the standard black variety seem to hold up nicely.

tesral
06-27-2008, 11:12 PM
I don't know if its mutant sweat glands or a poor job fixing the print to the page, but on several of the pages of my DMG the text has smeared just from a stray thumb while turning the page.
I've only been able to repeat this with the text, and only on a few pages. Images and any print not in the standard black variety seem to hold up nicely.

An unscientific view of the evidence it is sounding more like a printer error. This run of 3e books, but not that one, a 4e here and there, some badly, some don't, some kinda but you have to work at it.

Lizards needs a new printer. I would call this highly inconsistent ink quality.

If you have a book that is smearing, take it back and demand a replacement. Do not live with it. BTW Amazon will take returns of defective merchandise. It is not dependent on you the customer to just "live with it".

I don't care what you opinion of the contents. The physical book should not smear with normal handling. Dumping a bucket of acetone on it that is a different matter.

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
06-29-2008, 02:18 AM
I don't know if its mutant sweat glands or a poor job fixing the print to the page, but on several of the pages of my DMG the text has smeared just from a stray thumb while turning the page.
I've only been able to repeat this with the text, and only on a few pages. Images and any print not in the standard black variety seem to hold up nicely.
It's official. I spoke with my group today... they all have their books(mines still on backorder from Amazon), and everyone agreed, they easily smudge.

Thoth-Amon

Maelstrom
07-01-2008, 05:21 PM
Unfortunately, mine are the same way. My goblin page in the MM is a bit smeared at having it open while DMing some good ol' fashion goblin beat-downs.

Perfectly readable, and I'm not much a stickler for neatness, but still a let-down.

Ramzei
07-01-2008, 06:51 PM
The quality in D&D books has been going down steadily, the harbacks of 1st edition are pretty well built. Second edition is just a smidgen less then the dropoff of very late 2nd, third and so on. Another reason I am not very excited about 4e.

ithil
07-01-2008, 08:13 PM
I've had my books for a few weeks, and there's no smearing yet. It does sound like a sporadic printer error.

tesral
07-01-2008, 11:26 PM
Unfortunately, mine are the same way. My goblin page in the MM is a bit smeared at having it open while DMing some good ol' fashion goblin beat-downs.

Perfectly readable, and I'm not much a stickler for neatness, but still a let-down.

Send it back! Demand a replacement or a refund. It is shoddy work and you should not stand for it.

Seriously, I don't care the publisher or the product. If it fails due to manufacturer error, and I call pages that smear with a finger wipe a failure, send the book back. Even if you love the content and think the publisher is ghodd. It's nothing against Lizards or Forry. If I bought a volume of Shakespeare and this happened it would go back.

Hold their little bean counting butts to the quality fire. If you don't I guarantee you will never see better and will see worse. This is not the fault of the creative team, you are not pissing on them by demanding quality. It is bean counting, money grubbers in the front office that decided to skip the printing quality.

Don't get me wrong, they deserve a profit if the product is good, but not at the expense of physical quality. Send every one of the smearing volumes back and if it breaks the company, well they bought the ticket, they can take the ride. That's Capitalism baby.

Maelstrom
07-02-2008, 08:23 AM
Send it back! Demand a replacement or a refund. It is shoddy work and you should not stand for it.

Heck no, I'm having way too much fun.

For those that feel strong enough, sure call em up, give em an earful, or send it back.

For myself, I'll keep em, thank you. Smearing pages is an annoyance to me, nothing more.

The quality of the content is much more important to me than the quality of the ink.

tesral
07-02-2008, 10:36 AM
Heck no, I'm having way too much fun.

For those that feel strong enough, sure call em up, give em an earful, or send it back.

For myself, I'll keep em, thank you. Smearing pages is an annoyance to me, nothing more.

The quality of the content is much more important to me than the quality of the ink.

Then you are asking to be so abused in the future. I am, not saying don't get a replacement. I am saying demand that replacement because your copy is defective. Would you keep a car whose paint flaked off? Or would you return that sucker to the dealership and make them fix it? The book is no different.

If people allow Lizards to take a pass on the smearing ink "because the content is so great" it will be noted in the dungeons infested by the bean counters and they will know that gamers will accept shoddy workmanship, and you will get more same.

It is no different than any other product. Defective merchandise should be returned. Do not pay 30 bucks for a bad job.

Ramzei
07-02-2008, 11:10 AM
Holding on to defective products only makes companies more willing to bend on quality in the future. If it is fine this time it will be fine next time in their eyes. You putting up with it only makes it more likely any other gamer out there will too. So if you wont do it for yourself, do it for the community at large.

Maelstrom
07-02-2008, 11:21 AM
It is no different than any other product. Defective merchandise should be returned. Do not pay 30 bucks for a bad job.

As I said, not that important to me, and its effectiveness is no less lessened (ie not defective). I know it is important to others, let them complain or demand a refund, they are in the right to do so.

If any part of the book were smeared to unreadableness (thereby making it defective) then I'd act, but at this point I care no more about it than to speak about it on a forum. I am nowhere near wanting a replacement.

Maelstrom
07-02-2008, 11:33 AM
So if you wont do it for yourself, do it for the community at large.

If I considered it defective I would do so. Why not call yourself? It would be almost as effective for you to call, say you considered 4e, but chose not to go for it due to shoddy printing. Your complaints will add to the swarm of complaints they are receiving once they realizing its affecting their bottom line.

Ramzei
07-02-2008, 01:34 PM
almost as effective

"Almost" being the key word there. After your post, I did make the call. Hopefully, you will do the same. Assuming you want to hold on to your defective product the least you can do is make the same call. Best case scenario you make the complaint for the community and possibly get a 2nd copy. Worst case... you made a simple phone call.

tesral
07-02-2008, 03:32 PM
If any part of the book were smeared to unreadableness (thereby making it defective) then I'd act, but at this point I care no more about it than to speak about it on a forum. I am nowhere near wanting a replacement.

It's that attitude that puts lead in the toys and poison in the pet food. Sure, you let it slide this time, it's not too bad.

Next time will be worse and you will pay more for the privilege.

I was in manufacturing once. I can proudly say that no junk ever got to a vendor because I was sloppy about quality. I never made anything that might kill someone if it failed, but I made quality. A lack of similar pride in quality of the product annoys the Hell out of me. Makes me swear and cuss.

Maelstrom
07-02-2008, 04:35 PM
Good gracious, these feelings run deep :)

Grimwell
07-02-2008, 11:03 PM
It's that attitude that puts lead in the toys and poison in the pet food. Sure, you let it slide this time, it's not too bad.
Drama... meter... going... off.... scale.

Dude, you are totally and 100% correct. If the smearing is a bother to a person they can and should politely return the product for an exchange.

Doing this won't feed starving children any more than not doing it will put led paint in the toys I'm going to buy my kids for Christmas.

I too worked QA in a Michigan factory. I never let slop pass; but I was rare. Of the 120-ish people who worked in the factory, more than 100 didn't give a rats about quality. They worked for beer money, smoking money, and child support. Not even buying American guarantees a good product. Returning your books won't stop lead paint from China.

See, that's how you set up a proper distracting argument. You pull in jignostic pride and pessimism all in one swipe.

tesral
07-02-2008, 11:18 PM
Dude, you are totally and 100% correct. If the smearing is a bother to a person they can and should politely return the product for an exchange.

Doing this won't feed starving children any more than not doing it will put led paint in the toys I'm going to buy my kids for Christmas.

However I am right. Letting the little things slide is exactly the attitude that casues the bigger problems down the road. Hold the feet the the fire with the little things, the big things are less likely to crop up.

No, smearing books are not going give kids heavy metal poisoning. Lack of quality and a lackadaisical attitude toward lack of quality will.

Return the books, demand a replacment. Lizards is not a little garage company that cannot afford better. They have Hasbro behind them. Demand better.

Grimwell
07-02-2008, 11:56 PM
However I hold an opinion I feel very passionate about.
I've corrected that for you.

You are only right in that people can request an exchange on their books over a printing defect and get one. People are free to do as they please, up to and including being content with smeared pages.

Burn as many heathens as you want, but that does not make bad people out of the folks who see a smudge and drive on my friend.

Farcaster
07-03-2008, 12:01 AM
SET DRAMA = ON;

Tesral, you don't even own the books. In fact, you illegally obtained a copy of them. Have you considered that it is people like you that cause Wizards to have to use lower quality printing -- people that STEAL their product. You're taking food out of the mouths of the designer's children. Shame on you, shame on you!

Now, don't start trying to refute that with any logic. You won't hear of it, so why should we?

SET DRAMA = OFF;

Grimwell
07-03-2008, 12:06 AM
Wait... HE STOLE THE %$#@%$@# BOOKS???

How did I miss on that?

No offense Tesral, you are on /ignore

tesral
07-03-2008, 02:24 AM
SET DRAMA = ON;

Tesral, you don't even own the books. In fact, you illegally obtained a copy of them. Have you considered that it is people like you that cause Wizards to have to use lower quality printing -- people that STEAL their product. You're taking food out of the mouths of the designer's children. Shame on you, shame on you!

Now, don't start trying to refute that with any logic. You won't hear of it, so why should we?

SET DRAMA = OFF;

Don't have them any more. Looked and decided not to buy, good bye bytes.

I did not "steal" the books. Please be careful what you libel people with. It is libel. And libel is a bad thing.

Fine, if people wish to keep defective merchandise, and wish to put words in my mouth, fine. I'm not going to frog march anyone to the refund center.

However don't complain in the future about book quality.

gdmcbride
07-03-2008, 04:01 AM
I've got to say, before we compare a mild printing problem in a role-playing game book to poisoning children with lead paint, I think we should probably think twice. Or even three times.

One is a minor inconvience to a few gamers and may cause you to live with a few smudges or even more drastically ... get a new book. One is an international scandal that wrecked lives, promoted no small amount of hysteria, caused transnational economic damage, and endangered the young for the gross pursuit of profit.

My 4E books by the way have no problem with smudging that I have yet noted. I would also describe their binding as being of excellent quality.

Gary

Farcaster
07-03-2008, 11:23 AM
I did not "steal" the books. Please be careful what you libel people with. It is libel. And libel is a bad thing.

Throwing around legal terms are we? Well, to be sure we're all on the same page about what that term means:

In law, defamation (also called vilification, slander, and libel) is the communication of a statement that makes a false claim, expressively stated or implied to be factual.. (Ah, what doesn't Wikipedia know?)

I give you your own words:


I've read through the books and no I did not change my mind. I was given a bootleg. (Which I will not be sharing so no one can bother asking. Lizards security sucks.)

Reading the books from a PDF that was illegally obtained IS stealing. You weren't just assessing whether you wanted to buy them either, so let's not go with that excuse -- lest I have to start referencing even further posts you have made here.

Grimwell
07-03-2008, 11:57 AM
/me grabs some popcorn and eagerly awaits a Godwin Invoking Statement

tesral
07-03-2008, 12:05 PM
/me grabs some popcorn and eagerly awaits a Godwin Invoking Statement
Hitler poisoned Chinese children with smearing ink!!!! There that is out of the way.

Seriously people you are taking the comment way over the top.

I'm done. You are either taking your books back, and demanding replacements, or you are not. I highly advise the former unless you want more smearing books. Quality is a hot button with me. Be it books eletronics, or anything.

Dimthar
07-08-2008, 08:18 PM
I'm done. You are either taking your books back, and demanding replacements, or you are not. I highly advise the former unless you want more smearing books. Quality is a hot button with me. Be it books eletronics, or anything.

I totally agree with this.

Although I am still surprised a "Book Smearing" Thread reached 60 posts!.

.