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ryan973
06-23-2008, 11:28 AM
I finally came was able to find soem examples of Eds feeling on the new changes. he is very kind and forthwith with his opinions but if you read you can see that he does not seem pleased by the changes. Also in a recent interveiw when asked if his current group would be switching to 4th as they switched to 3rd and 3.5 as soon as they came out he lauphed and said "no thank you". Gotta admit the man has class. I will post a quate of his posting here but wanted to give the link if you want to read itwere it came from.

ryan973
06-23-2008, 11:30 AM
Originally posted by The Hooded One (on behalf of Ed Greenwood)

Sage and Arkhaedun, indulge us for a moment, please. Ed will return to lore replies forthwith, but folks are upset and he wants to address that. So . . .

Hi again, everyone. Ed is remaining true to his promise to “be here” for scribes, but warns that he just can’t answer as freely as he might, not just because of NDAs and not wanting to damage the process of unfolding the Realms, but because so much just isn’t known yet (by him, and presumably by most others) about specifics of the 4e Realms.
However, without further jabber from me, heeeeere’s Ed:



Hello, all. I continue to receive e-mails, phone calls, snail mail letters, and in-person queries, beefs, and pleas for reassurance from longtime Realms fans - - and continue to be humbled by the depth of your feeling for the Realms. Thank you, everyone.
Though I am frantically busy trying to get things done before flying off to Australia (during which trip I will almost certainly fall e-silent, BTW) I will try to respond to scribes who have posted in this thread, as I come to your posts in the e-mails THO forwards me.



Red Walker, you’re welcome, thanks for the love, and you are very, very right to say: “Fear of change is natural, and greater fear of Big changes is too!”

The reactions of Realms fans were expected for this very reason. Of COURSE everyone will be upset, or at least anxious, in some way, whether eager for change or hating its possible/probable consequences. Wooly Rupert and others are correct to say we haven’t seen enough yet to really judge the so-called “new” Realms, and I agree.

None of which doesn’t make opinions on it, based on the little we have seen, perfectly valid. Zandilar isn’t the only one to decide that the changes she’s heard about thus far seem “so... well... dumb, to put it bluntly.”

Please, please, all of you: respect each other’s opinions. Disagree with them as heatedly as you want, but please bend over backwards not to disrespect each other for holding them. As it happens, the way the “peekaboo” revelations have thus far appeared (I’m guessing so as to foment maximum “buzz” and therefore unpaid publicity), I agree with Zandilar. Those don’t sound like MY gods. :}

However, Chosen of Moradin quite rightly points out that “a timeline is not an explanation of what happens. It's only a summary. And a summary cannot explain clearly anything. The summary of the Fall of Myth Drannor don't explain the Fall of Myth Drannor. So, to see exactly what happened, we will have to wait until the next FRCS.”

Correct. As I’ve always said, mortals in the Realms can never know the “truth” about divine deeds and intentions, only what’s reported to them. By deities, priests, soothsayers, “possessed” madwits, and in dream-visions - - and ALL of those sources can be mistaken or misinterpreted, or can lie and distort or slant to further their own agendas. Yes, even the gods themselves. So what appears in THE GRAND HISTORY OF THE REALMS is what “the loudest reports say” happened, not what every being in the Realms personally saw and therefore “knows” (and agrees) happened.

It should be obvious to everyone by now that there are major changes in magic and the deities underway, and that the Spellplague is part of that. We now know that it begins in the Year of Blue Fire, in a dramatic way, and that part of Bob’s newest novel takes place a hundred years in the future (at a time when almost all human characters alive in the Realms of “today,” if they haven’t found some magical means of prolonging their lifespans - - in a “magic unstable and unreliable” situation - - will have perished of old age).

Which brings us to eiglos, who posts: “My only current played character in the Realms is a Priestess of Lurue. Her future must be uncertain, unless Lurue returns to her original role in the Realms.”

Passing over the obvious points that everyone’s future is always uncertain, and that the particular priestess will almost certainly have died of old age by the time of THE ORC KING anyway, we know that gods can and have been subsumed by other gods, and that “dead” or fallen gods are still worshipped fervently, just as before, because other deities adopt their followers, still grant spells, and so on - - so mortals may or may not know the true fate of the deity they worship. This MIGHT be one future for this specific priestess. Lurue (or any other deity, for that matter) could of course survive “unchanged,” or change in divine power but keep the same looks, portfolios, aims, and credos. Deities tend to shift subtly all the time in these things, however. And IF we are talking a century of time, that’s a lot of roleplaying (in terms of real-world duration). So for now, eiglos, roleplaying “life” for your priestess can be very much “business as usual.”

I personally would welcome the separation of, say, The Living Realms and the “history” RPGA play therein develops, from my own home campaign. If characters played in an RPGA adventure slay a wizard and blow up his tower, and I’m using both wizard and tower extensively in my home campaign, the potential conflict vanishes; the destruction won’t occur until the future (if mage and/or structure “go down” in my campaign, there’s plenty of in-Realms time for the one to be brought back to life somehow and the other rebuilt, to “explain away” the conflict).

A gamer can play in their own current campaign just as before, peek at eventual 4e Realms releases in hobby shops, at conventions, and via online discussion, and either decide never to go to 4e, or (if the new material at some point seems really exciting) “jump” the characters from one Realmsdate to the other by some magical means (even if it’s “caught in a portal for a century,” and I set just such weirdness up with some comments in SWORDS OF DRAGONFIRE that also “start to” explain the 2e to 3e “map changes” in the Realms without being too explicit, for those who didn’t make the change). Or, if a DM and player group collectively decide to move to the “new” Realms, they can even try to arrange cached treasure and PC breeding so as to “set up” descendants of their favourite characters as adventurers in the future Realms.

So, eiglos, your priestess can have a long and rewarding life and career, regardless.

However, this leads to another important point Zandilar raised: “If I run my campaign prior to the Year of Blue Fire, then I don't need the 4e products. Since I don't need them, I don't buy them. Since I don't buy them, WotC doesn't get my money. WotC doesn't get my money, and it is starting to look like a lot of the "old guard" are going down this path... So WotC starts to loose money, and eventually the line will get cut.”

This is indeed the Big Risk in all of this, the “roll of the dice” that I wish someone had never decided to make (because I personally value the ongoing development of a shared and unbroken imaginary Grand History of a fictional fantasy setting as something magnificent in itself, an achievement we should all continue to contribute to).

Yet it’s happening regardless of my personal wants, and I choose to be onboard trying to paddle and steer, rather than left behind swimming in the water, calling out that perhaps we should have set a different course.
Zandilar is perfectly correct to post: “I've never ever had problems with a business wanting to make a profit. That is, after all, the purpose of a business. But what they're doing here is taking a HUGE risk with a known quantity.

They're risking the entire Realms product line with this move, and they seem to have gone to great lengths to rub us old guard up the wrong way with the changes they're making. (Just my perception, I'm sure they haven't deliberately set out to slight us.)”

I don’t think anyone at Wizards set out to deliberately upset or slight anyone. I do think it has been decided to make these changes swiftly, and that very “brutal rapidity” is increasing some of the upset along with the “buzz.”

However, there’s no reason at all to move your own campaign if you don’t want to. IF there’s a hundred-year jump, that’s a LOT of time to roleplay through; most FR campaigns I hear about don’t cover more than ten to twelve years in the Realms unless they incorporate “down time” jumps of their own, before they “run down” and the folks involved start anew.

Yes, the Spellplague is going to shift the flavour of the Realms (if wizards are dying or their magic is going wild or failing, and priests are all upset, too, it follows that the “tone” of daily life and therefore of roleplaying will change a bit), but the Realms is a big place, and there’s no reason yet to suspect that “all civilization will fall.” Waterdeep, Silverymoon, Cormyr - - I don’t think a century will sweep any of them away.

CHANGE them, yes, but they’re all changing constantly, anyway; we just usually live with the changes as they’re happening rather than seeing a “big jump-cut.” Nor is there any reason, based on what we’ve seen thus far, to believe that the Spellplague is a single big event, over in a short time; the very name implies something of longer duration, with almost certainly (if real-world “plagues” are anything to go by) varying results from place to place and person to person (this city or region largely unaffected, that wizard untouched, this one over here driven mad; that allows DMs plenty of “elbow room” to preserve the “heart locations” of a beloved campaign, and favourite PCs and NPCs, too; it’s “the rest of the Realms”

where the BIG changes occur . . . something that a lot of DMs have already been doing for two decades, as they steer their own campaigns around events in the published Realms).

None of which means my arguments should be seen as quelling, denying, or belittling the personal anger and upset longtime Realms fans are feeling over this. Believe me, I know how you feel. :}

Neriandal Freit, your queries don’t come off as offensive, at all (and I’m glad you loved that little scene in EL’S DAUGHTER; one of my favourite moments, out of everything I’ve written). I hear you and I sympathize, deeply. (And yes, I’ll check out “Redeemers of Dawn,” and let you know; somebody please give THO a heads up when the new Compendium is released, okay?)

My answer begins: Although I know the Realms is intended as “a place to play,” and therefore should be something of a haven from the unpleasantnesses of real life, so we can hold on to elements in it we love and hold most precious, even in the Realms everything changes. I hate changing anything in the published Realms before I finish the (admittedly endless) task of detailing every corner of it (we still aren’t really off the first continent, are we?), but the alternative is static boredom . . . dust settling on statues in silence.

Everything changes; eventually, everyone (even deities, as they are conceived of in the Realms, with power tied to worshippers) dies. So with that said, my "answer direct" to you becomes another question: In real life, and in the Realms, do you NOT fall in love with someone, or befriend them, or work with them on something that interests you both and that you can both be proud of, because someday both of you will die?

I don’t think so. Despite yourself, even if you know we’re all rushing to oblivion, you do it anyway. In the end, that’s what “living” is all about.
We know we’re all doomed (as the song goes: “We’re here for a good time/Not a long time”), but we go ahead and love, laugh, climb mountains, read books, and fall in love with the Realms anyway. At least I did. :}

If it helps you decide, I intend to go on exploring the Realms, bringing us all more detail. Some of it in the “now” Realms, and some of it in the “new” Realms.
I strongly suspect the published Realms will shortly become “new Realms only” in terms of the time-setting of products - - and that many fans may step back from that new Realms. That’s an individual choice I certainly don’t want to try to (further than by setting forth my views here) influence for everyone. It’s going to have to be your call.

I hope you’ll join with Xysma and others in “clinging to the merest sliver of hope that Ed, Eric, and the rest can salvage what at first glance is going to be a nightmare for those of us who love the Realms so dearly,” and therefore at least give the new Realms a look.

I’m going to go right on exploring the Realms, and if that means finding some way to paint in bits of the “Lost Years” in the time-jump, I’ll try to find some way to do that. We MIGHT end up with a Realms of the novels that’s far “ahead in time” of where you or other gamers might be roleplaying, and therefore not conflicting much with your unfolding play.

Lovely smell over here, steak sizzling over there, so to speak.
I KNOW it hurts when you’ve come to love and cherish a fictional place and characters, that you can enjoy in your imagination, and someone goes and stomps on what you hold precious. Yet what lies your imagination can be only be hurt if you let it be.

In the Realms, this has all happened before; the Mystra you loved that scene about is Mystra Number 2 (Number 3 if you count Mystryl). The Realms you love grew out of previous planet-shaking debacles. and you may come to like the post-Spellplague Realms.

Or not. I understand and respect both your love for the Realms, and that you feel the way you do right now.

Kuje expressed his dismay early on in this, and many other scribes have cried out between him and you; I understand and sympathize with all of your misgivings and raw emotions. I went through the same thing at a secret summit meeting at GenCon some years ago; believe me, heavy-hitter novelists and game designers who love the Realms have argued about this “change” over and over heatedly.

There’s always a strong streak in gamers and game designers of what I said onstage at the Killer Breakfast this year, when Tracy asked me what my character was going to do, and I replied: “Being a game designer, I go for the bright shiny object.” We always feel the lure of what’s exciting and new.

Yet I deliberately left the ever-busier city where I grew up (“home”) to go and live in the country, to try to cling to some of the good things of the past that were slipping away in the big city. So I’m going through this struggle, too. Lose Syluné? Hell, lose ALL the human NPCs I spent forty years bringing to life? This had BETTER be good!

Wizards of the Coast obviously believes it will be. I’m going to do my best to help them make it so. I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.

(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . . .

So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO

mrken
06-23-2008, 12:22 PM
That, was very hard to read. So I didn't finish it. I For one don't really care enough about 4th Ed. to put that much effort into the read. Though I do like Ed's past work.

Aidan
06-23-2008, 01:32 PM
Who's Ed Greenwood?

tesral
06-23-2008, 01:42 PM
Who's Ed Greenwood?

Invented the Forgotten Realms setting. An old timer, like some of the people around here.

fmitchell
06-23-2008, 01:48 PM
Who's Ed Greenwood?

Ed Greenwood (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Greenwood):



... created the Forgotten Realms Dungeons & Dragons campaign setting.

Ed Greenwood and Jeff Grubb together penned the Forgotten Realms Campaign Set in 1987, for TSR—though Greenwood had used the Forgotten Realms for his home Dungeons & Dragons campaign since 1975. The spawned campaign world was a success, and he has been involved with all subsequent incarnations of the Forgotten Realms in D&D. Greenwood's most lasting character from the setting is the wizard Elminster, who he portrayed (at TSR's request) for a number of years at conventions and as a participant in the RPGA's Living City campaign.

Since the release of the Forgotten Realms, Greenwood has published many Forgotten Realms novels, as listed below. He retains certain rights of his setting, but is essentially a freelance author.


I couldn't read the huge cut-and-pasted block of text either, but I'm not surprised Ed Greenwood isn't converting. Fourth Edition overturns a number of assumptions that the Forgotten Realms is based on, starting with gnomes (and tieflings, and dragonborn), and ending with the abilities of wizards, fighters, and the rest.

For Ed Greenwood, and for anyone with a huge investment in the way D&D worked in 3.x (or before), it's not worth switching.

However, for those of us willing to start in a new world under the 4e set of assumptions, I say to the grognards: "Bring it, scruffy."

Aidan
06-23-2008, 02:39 PM
Ah, that's why I'm not familiar with the name. I was getting out of D&D at the time Forgotten Realms was first published. Also, I never went in for those canned worlds or for the D&D novelizations.

ryan973
06-23-2008, 02:57 PM
Ah, that's why I'm not familiar with the name. I was getting out of D&D at the time Forgotten Realms was first published. Also, I never went in for those canned worlds or for the D&D novelizations.


I dont like written adventure modules but i definetly would not refer to Forgotten Realms as a canned world. Its 40 years of work by some of the most talented novelists and gamers around in fantasy. Although i would agree that some of the 3.5 books put out by wizards for the settign was half content and half filler just trying to get enouph pages in the thing so they could charge the right amount. My poin tis this though. The guys who with the help of the fans made D&D what it is dont seem all that happy about the changes.

tesral
06-23-2008, 04:13 PM
However, for those of us willing to start in a new world under the 4e set of assumptions, I say to the grognards: "Bring it, scruffy."

You might as well say for those of us willing to get replacement children. You just do not understand the attachment that amount of work is. Thindacarulle has me as much as I have it. It would almost be easier to leave my wife.

I am sure that Ed Greenwood has a similar level of attachment to the land of his creation. I respect anyone that has done that kind of work. "Canned worlds" indeed.

And never call me scruffy. I am a Grognard, I'll take your system and your world and metaphorically beat you over the head with it. I can play anything. Can, do not choose to do so.

Webhead
06-23-2008, 04:28 PM
I never really followed any of the D&D settings to any degree worth mentioning, either via game books or novels. I do however understand and empathize with Ed Greenwood and his position on edition changing. I also think we owe the man much for his contributions to the hobby over the years. Certainly, D&D would not be what it is today without the influence and imagination of himself and other like him.

As an artist and a person, it's difficult to watch something you care about and have investment in change, especially when the future of that change is uncertain. It is important to recognize that though the present and future may change, the past never will. Ed's work and influence still remain for those who wish to heed it, even if the "children" of his ideas aren't following in his footsteps.

fmitchell
06-23-2008, 05:08 PM
You might as well say for those of us willing to get replacement children. You just do not understand the attachment that amount of work is. Thindacarulle has me as much as I have it. It would almost be easier to leave my wife.

I am sure that Ed Greenwood has a similar level of attachment to the land of his creation. I respect anyone that has done that kind of work. "Canned worlds" indeed.

Perhaps my last post was a little too brusque. I really have no problem with people who look at 4e and decide to give it a miss; I might at some point, after I've played a session or two. Certainly if you have years of campaign materials that simply won't fit into 4e, and you're content with a previous edition (perhaps with comfortable house rules), I've no problem with your decision to stay with what you like.

However, I also object to the tone of people here and elsewhere (including basicroleplaying.com, for Yelm's sake) that 4th edition "isn't an RPG anymore" or "isn't real D&D" or "is just a way to sell books" or "is pure crap".

The designers of the game thought they were improving it, according to their own statements (even if redesigning from scratch serves a new business direction). A lot of those who have played 4e like it, sometimes with reservations, and manage to role-play in it. Many of these are new players, or players who returned after becoming disenchanted with previous versions. Statements about one's own position are one thing; blanket statements about the quality of the game are quite another.


And never call me scruffy. I am a Grognard, I'll take your system and your world and metaphorically beat you over the head with it. I can play anything. Can, do not choose to do so.

"Bring it, scruffy" is a reference to "The Tiefling and the Gnome", ironically a piece of offputting propaganda by WotC, from which also derives another person's sig ("I'm a monster! Raar!"). And "grognard", originally meaning "old soldier", apparently comes from an old French verb meaning "to grumble".

I have no idea about your grooming habits, but I do hear a lot of grumbling from you.

And, not to ratchet up the testosterone level, but while you might have far more experience of a GM than I by a long stretch, please don't threaten to beat me over the head with "my system" and "my world", even metaphorically ... because both are mainly in my head, and beating someone over his head with his own head requires a paradox-proof time technology, and if you had that you'd be a fool to use it merely for metaphorical violence.

Webhead
06-23-2008, 06:42 PM
...And, not to ratchet up the testosterone level, but while you might have far more experience of a GM than I by a long stretch, please don't threaten to beat me over the head with "my system" and "my world", even metaphorically ... because both are mainly in my head, and beating someone over his head with his own head requires a paradox-proof time technology...

Or a Mage very talented in Time and Correspondence magic...:drum:

agoraderek
06-23-2008, 07:02 PM
hooray, ed. not enough to tick off the paycheck signers, just enough to say "we are NOT amused..."

Maelstrom
06-23-2008, 08:30 PM
Hmm, I read through the Ed Greenwooed post and I got a different impression. Must be a good writer then (and quite a rambler too in this case :) ).

It seemed to me he sympathized with those that hated the changes, but had a "wait and see" attitude himself. He even indicated he'd try 4e's changes.

He has captured a good deal of the debate going on in the D&D world. His quote of another poster quite applies: “Fear of change is natural, and greater fear of Big changes is too!”

D&D 4e got the hackles up for a lot of its long timers by the changes made. So much so only time will tell when things settle down.

Fortunately D&D is one thing in this life where once you make a change you're not necessarily stuck in it. We've still got players here playing houseruled 2e. They may not be getting too many new supplements, but chances are, the creative minds that have made 2e their home don't need supplements to keep their game vibrant.

Christopher_rowe
06-23-2008, 09:04 PM
Just as a datapoint, it was the media attention to the new Fourth Edition that brought me back to RPGs for the first time in over fifteen years. I started playing out of cardboard boxes in 1981, went through 1st and 2nd editions, played dozens of other games over a decade or so, and gradually drifted away.

I think the new system is fluid and fun, and that'll it'll bring a lot of new people to the hobby. Thankfully, as others have said, we can all enjoy whatever games we want to play.

Cheers,

Christopher

mrken
06-23-2008, 09:56 PM
If my memory serves me correctly this time (it often times serves me incorrectly :) ) Ed wrote for other games, not just DnD. Back in his TSR days he also did some work for Star Frontiers which I really enjoyed. Was a simpler rule set that Traveler. Then he also wrote some pretty good books.

Yeah, I am not buying 4th Ed. because I found a system I enjoy. I don't need the new rule set to play it like I didn't need the old set to play. But I see no problem with gleaning a few choice morsels from it like I did with the old set and many other sources of choice morsels.

It's not that I'm afraid of change or that I am too old to change. I just prefer to use what has served me rather well the past couple of decades. The new stuff is just an opportunity to find more ideas, though I must admit I will be looking at how the minis are used in combat to see if the new rules work as well as what I am using now.

tesral
06-23-2008, 10:39 PM
However, I also object to the tone of people here and elsewhere (including basicroleplaying.com, for Yelm's sake) that 4th edition "isn't an RPG anymore" or "isn't real D&D" or "is just a way to sell books" or "is pure crap".

I don't see it as D&D, too large a change. 4e is not evolution, it's baby out with the bath revolution. Funny, but revolutions lead to reigns of terror more often than not. I'm not commenting on the quality of the system other than to say it will have the same number of holes as the last edition, but in different places. This due tothe huge changes made i nthe system. The greed factor is evident in the holes as wide as a dragon's butt left in the expected material for later books to sell.

A publisher can service the customer base, or they can shear them. I am seeing the latter to a degree we didn't see in the T$R End of Days.



Or a Mage very talented in Time and Correspondence magic...:drum:

Get out of my secret mad science lab!!!!

ryan973
06-24-2008, 08:36 AM
I need to go web surfing again becouse i had found another one from RA Salvatore that also seemed as if he did not approve of the changes or the direction there gonna take with forgotten realms. But as was stated before both have got gutts to even hint at not saporting the changes.

Once again i think most who dont liek fourth would agree that its not a horrid game. Its just not D&D at all. More like dungeons and super heroes. Or D&D for kids.
Its too simple and lame and looks and feels like a mini game not an actual RPG. One of the coolest things about D&D is that its elitist for non-elitist. Not everyone should be able to play it.
Frankly speaking if you have been palying 3.5 for a few years Or DMing for even one and you dont understand how attacks of opertunity work or how to grapple. Then the problem is not the system its you. make an index card or buy a gm screen and read the back.

Webhead
06-24-2008, 10:29 AM
Frankly speaking if you have been palying 3.5 for a few years Or DMing for even one and you dont understand how attacks of opertunity work or how to grapple. Then the problem is not the system its you. make an index card or buy a gm screen and read the back.

Oh, I understand how AoO's and Grapple rules worked in D&D 3.5...I just didn't like them. I never had any issues trying to remember how and when to use them, I just would have rather spent my time on other things. They contributed too much slow-down and granularity to the combat system for my preferences, but then, I like a game that paints things in broader, simpler strokes.

Did I still use them? Yes. Did I complain about doing it? No. Would I miss AoO's if they went away? Heck no. Do I think rules for grappling ought to be toned down and streamlined a bit? Sure. There's a difference between knowing how something works and finding value in it.


Once again i think most who dont liek fourth would agree that its not a horrid game. Its just not D&D at all. More like dungeons and super heroes.

Then again, I've professed my love for super heroes and the super-heroic, so perhaps this colors my opinion of 4e a bit. At this stage, I couldn't say that I totally agree with the "super hero" comparison, but 4e characters do seem more generally powerful than previous edtions.


Or D&D for kids.

I don't see how it is intrinsically so, but perhaps you might elaborate on this a bit.

Christopher_rowe
06-24-2008, 11:04 AM
...4e characters do seem more generally powerful than previous edtions.

If the monsters/NPCs are powered up along the same lines, doesn't it all come out in the wash?

Webhead
06-24-2008, 11:07 AM
If the monsters/NPCs are powered up along the same lines, doesn't it all come out in the wash?

Yes. :)

Christopher_rowe
06-24-2008, 11:11 AM
Not everyone should be able to play it.

Your post strikes me as an excellent summary of the problems that most "old-timers" (some of whom, of course, are nineteen years old :)) seem to have with the new system. I appreciate your directness and honesty.

The bit I've lifted out seems particularly important, because I think it's where a lot of folks--myself certainly included--are going to start to realize that there's no reason for us all to waste time and energy trying to convince one another of the relative merits or shortcomings of 4E. Which is cool. You go your way, I'll go mine--'cause I think that everyone should be able to play (for some value of "everyone" that combines sensibleness and inclusiveness, natch).

Cheers,

Christopher

MooseAlmighty
06-24-2008, 12:20 PM
One of the coolest things about D&D is that its elitist for non-elitist. Not everyone should be able to play it.


A sentiment I loathe in gaming...

Find the Grapple rules confusing? Get out.
Haven't memorized all the 40K army charts? Get out.
Don't know the correct color for Napoleanic wargames? Get out.
Don't roleplay enough? Get out.
Roleplay too much? Get out.

God forbid we show people how fun our hobby can be and welcome them to it

ryan973
06-24-2008, 12:32 PM
The kid comment comes mostly from the backwards advertising of Wizards. They play like the rules for 3.5 were too much for people and portray them in a bad light. Frankly many found it insulting.
Also Sorry about the typing and spelling errors i have a minor case of dyslexia and have yet to find an excersise that helps with the typing. Luckinly on my actual work programs i have things that help. I do have an advanced vocabulary and comprehension though so feel free to sling the big words.
I wanted to make a point about soemthing important though and thats that i am very pleased wityh how cool everyone is about this whole fourth edition thing on these bourds i have disagreed with alot of diffrent opinions about the newest edition of my all time favorite hobby and not once have i felt insulted or like soemone was telling me i am wrong. To me this has been extreamly fun banter.
Am i upset that the first version of D&D that some people are exposed to will be 4th ? Yes but not becouse i think it is stupid or becouse i dont think they will like it.
I am upset becouse in my humble opinion it has strayed too far from the spirit and formula of what DND is. I am not just talking about Vacian spellcasting or encumberance but also all the hundreds of spells developed over the last 30 or so years, the iconic characters and abilities and worlds that are now never gonna be developed further in a way that they can be brought out to all the fans at once.
It was just too broad a change done too quikly. In my opinion if they truly beleaved in there product and its superiority then they wouldnt have called it 4th edition and split there market they would have produced it and called it Dungeons and dragons legends or soem crap like that.
Then they could have put there reasourse more into content and instead of putting out a book a month of 3.5 crap they could have put out a book every 3 or 4 months of 3.5 with qwuality content. to keep the loyalists happy and then done there best to make a transition to the new product through content and saport, and what they think is a superior product.


A sentiment I loathe in gaming...

Find the Grapple rules confusing? Get out.
Haven't memorized all the 40K army charts? Get out.
Don't know the correct color for Napoleanic wargames? Get out.
Don't roleplay enough? Get out.
Roleplay too much? Get out.

God forbid we show people how fun our hobby can be and welcome them to it



LOL its soo easy to pick at soemthing liek that. Fact is some people just dont have the imagination or the confidence to sit around a table and role play. D&D is a role playing game.
For people like that you can play other thing like risk or monopoly or .... wait! How bout Fourth edition.
They have rules for role play and social encounters so you can just roll and get results. and as for describing your actions and reactions to whats happening in combat we can just move a few hexes and not worry about it.
Whats that you dont want to have to rest in the dungeon and go through keeping a watch and mabie even running out of food in the middle of a three week dungeon crawl?
Well dont worry about it then. Whats that the troll hit you with a giant double headed axe and your wounded? Just spend a healing surge mister fighter and shake it off. not to worry even if its bad it should be healed up by tomorrow.

There are Games for everyone and if something is too hard for some then they should not play it. For instance fourth is not for me or my freands so we wont play it. but we may still discuss it on the bourds so as to hopefully get the word out that we ar enot completely satisfied with a product and perhaps let the others out there like us that tyhere not alone and that pehaps if there are enouph of us who voice our opinion then the company will take notice and mabie not take a step back but still try to stear the new product into a slightly diffrent direction so as to make more of us happy.

Tamerath
06-24-2008, 02:35 PM
I need to go web surfing again becouse i had found another one from RA Salvatore that also seemed as if he did not approve of the changes or the direction there gonna take with forgotten realms. But as was stated before both have got gutts to even hint at not saporting the changes.

Once again i think most who dont liek fourth would agree that its not a horrid game. Its just not D&D at all. More like dungeons and super heroes. Or D&D for kids.
Its too simple and lame and looks and feels like a mini game not an actual RPG. One of the coolest things about D&D is that its elitist for non-elitist. Not everyone should be able to play it.
Frankly speaking if you have been palying 3.5 for a few years Or DMing for even one and you dont understand how attacks of opertunity work or how to grapple. Then the problem is not the system its you. make an index card or buy a gm screen and read the back.

I know this is off topic but I have a bone to pick with you over this. While I do respect everyone's opinion on this board I think your post is a little abrasive to say the least. First off, I've played since 2nd edition my friend...I've ran some really great campaigns based in my homebrew campaign world (which was a mix between forgotten realms and ravenloft because that's what I'm into) and when 3rd edition came out I upgraded and continued my campaign world...and when 3.5 came out I was angered and couldn't believe they were doing this...yet I still got the product and the sourcebooks. When 4th edition came out I was pissed just like a lot of other "old guard" and looked at my collection of source material and said there is NO way I'm switching to 4th. 3 editions in less then a decade is just horrible business. BUT...I started reading up on it...and the more I read the more I liked...I'm not a novice to the game...I know grapple rules and all that other crap you mentioned..hell I had them in the game before they were official rules! The thing is...I've actually played 4th edition unlike many of the people that simply hate it and won't try it. Without going into the details because I've already posted my opinions elsewhere on this forum...I'm going to say that the ease of play without the hundreds of different charts or rulebook page flipping that would grind games to a halt in 3.5 is what has me sold. I ENJOY this version of D&D. Now for the rest of you that aren't switching over...that's awesome..have fun and great gaming....but personally I'm switching over and I hope you respect that choice as well. I think the major problem here that a lot of people are feeling (including me) is that we have spent so much into this hobby...and it's not a stable one when they change 3 editions in such a short amount of time. I personally feel that the problem stems with Wizard's bad business calls (which they seem to continue to blunder into). 4th Edition is D&D my friends...choose to stay in 2nd or 3rd edition of D&D if you want and that's your right as a hobbyist...but 4th edition is just a part of D&D as 2nd or 3rd edition...and one that I enjoy. Thank you and sorry about the off topic rant.

mrken
06-24-2008, 03:16 PM
A sentiment I loathe in gaming...

Find the Grapple rules confusing? Get out.
Haven't memorized all the 40K army charts? Get out.
Don't know the correct color for Napoleanic wargames? Get out.
Don't roleplay enough? Get out.
Roleplay too much? Get out.

God forbid we show people how fun our hobby can be and welcome them to it


I totally agree with you on this point. If we don't encourage others to join us in this pretty weird game and show them how to have some fun doing what is truly a child's game for big kids, then we will continue to be looked at as weird. I say teach more people to have fun with us as often as possible and we will become pretty mainstream, whatever your particular oddity.

ryan973
06-24-2008, 03:24 PM
"I know this is off topic but I have a bone to pick with you over this. " :mad:


Umm yea ok pal. Take it personal why dont you. LOL

Look thanks for your opinion and all but i would hope you relize that i like all gamer no matter what they play. anyone who sets aside tiem in there lfe to hang with freands and play is alwase ok by me. While i acnkowledge your opinion i dont have to agree with you any more than you do me. I have played fourth edition i own it and i was actually just reading it yet AGAIN a few minutes ago on break. I started in second edition, loved and then played third and loved and then played 3.5 hesitantly but loved and really looked forward to fourth i mean really. i told my group we were switching i was really excited. then i read it. the end.

Lets keep things civil ok. :cool:

Valdar
06-24-2008, 03:35 PM
Noticed that Greenwood retained an author credit on the 4th ed. of Forgotten Realms- Is that just because he wrote earlier versions, or did he actually do work on this one?

Anyway, not to be too polemical here, but isn't Forgotten Realms the setting that gave us the patron saints of both munchkinism (Drizzt) and Mary Sue DMPCs (Elminster)? If so, I can see why the designers of it would hate 4e, with its class balance and focus on the PCs...

agoraderek
06-24-2008, 05:10 PM
Noticed that Greenwood retained an author credit on the 4th ed. of Forgotten Realms- Is that just because he wrote earlier versions, or did he actually do work on this one?

Anyway, not to be too polemical here, but isn't Forgotten Realms the setting that gave us the patron saints of both munchkinism (Drizzt) and Mary Sue DMPCs (Elminster)? If so, I can see why the designers of it would hate 4e, with its class balance and focus on the PCs...

wow, maybe we should, as a group, stop reading novels all together. might get the wrong gaming impressions...

and, the impression i got from reading their statements is this: they aren't saying anything about the rules set, they're concerned with what is going to happen to their setting...

trechriron
06-25-2008, 01:13 AM
Please format with paragraph breaks etc. This is unreadable. As an alternative (and generally polite to the forum admin) you can post a quick summary and a link to the original site\article, etc.

I hope you will fix this up as the article intrigues me! :D

ryan973
06-25-2008, 08:17 AM
I tried to add some space and such to clean it up. Also Yes this is more about the changes to settings and story rather than the mechanics. However with the end of Greyhawk Forgotten Realms is becoming the Flag setting for fourth ediition.