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ronpyatt
06-21-2008, 09:09 PM
In 3.5e I have killed more kobolds in my sleep as a wizard than there are grains of sand in my back yard. They're fodder.

(See, that's how you start a new thread and not derail someone else's thread.)

agoraderek
06-21-2008, 09:19 PM
In 3.5e I have killed more kobolds in my sleep as a wizard than there are grains of sand in my back yard. They're fodder.

(See, that's how you start a new thread and not derail someone else's thread.)

your dm was a poor game master. kobolds have been vicious little bastards since the beginning.

ronpyatt
06-21-2008, 09:44 PM
I've never met a DM that could do with a kobold as you describe. They were strictly for XP gifts from the DM.

So, how would does a 3.x kobold succeed in harassing a group of PC's?

Dimthar
06-21-2008, 10:13 PM
Changed my mind

Kilrex
06-21-2008, 10:53 PM
I've never met a DM that could do with a kobold as you describe. They were strictly for XP gifts from the DM.

So, how would does a 3.x kobold succeed in harassing a group of PC's?

Most DMs are too nice to use Kobolds as per the MM. When 3rd came out, I used Kobolds as my training tool for the new system. Even numbers of Kobolds to PCs, Kobolds ended up killing the whole party first 5 or 6 times. Took a while till the party was able to work together to survive a proper 1st level CR.

Kobolds are quite good with traps, no matter the surrounding. They should also never attack the group in even numbers.

Kobolds should use area for a fight to their advantage. Begin w/ even number of Kobolds to PCs. Kobold start with slings on the flat-footed party first round. The party moves to close with the Kobolds, only to discover traps (pits w/ tripwires in front is my favorite - 1st Spot check for the tripwire, 2nd for the pit). Kobolds retreat a bit to further range. Once party finally reaches them, AMBUSH! This is where the 2 to 1 odds in favor of Kobolds come in (or appropriate). Throw in at least 1 Kobold Sorcerer and maybe a Cleric for good times.

Killed a party of 4th lvl PCs, 5 of them, using the above. Kobolds - 1 Lvl3 Warrior, 1 Lvl2 Cleric, 1 Lvl2 Sorcerer, 5 Lvl1 Warriors and Traps.

Tripwires - Spot DC 12 (+2 DC if charging or running) and Pits - Spot DC 14 (+2 DC running or charging). Funny to Spot one trap but miss other. See a Tripwire, but not Pit, jump wire and land in pit. See Pit but not wire, trip on wire into pit you already saw. Pits were 20 ft deep w/ spikes at bottom. 1d6 falling and 1d4 spikes. 8ft Jump check to clear pit or Spot DC 14 to find safe way past (player had to declare looking for way, no freebie check). Of course the "safe" way across was a board that only needed to carry the weight of a Kobold with no more than 20lbs of extra weight, not a heavy PC (10 coins per lb, and PC always got lots of coin).

I am told I can be a bastard. Dunno why?

agoraderek
06-21-2008, 11:01 PM
I've never met a DM that could do with a kobold as you describe. They were strictly for XP gifts from the DM.

So, how would does a 3.x kobold succeed in harassing a group of PC's?

we, being myself, a paladin, my ranger buddy, a wizaed we picked up on the way and a rogue that just kind of fell in with us on the road (all third level, 3.5 rules), were exploring an old gnome mine (looking for bloodstones, it was a faerun game). the mine had been settled and was being worked by a small group of kobolds, who had been there for about three months (according to the ranger).

the kobolds, being a weaker race, but skilled at mining and construction, had honeycombed the mines with secret shafts, pit traps, noise alarms (trip wired and such) and a few magic mouths (they had a third level sorcerer in the group, acting as the leader).

the ranger alerted us to the presence of kobolds, so we were on our toes and expected traps and guerilla tactics from the start, but our rogue blew his roll on the very first attempt to locate a trap, and i fell into the pit (the rogue was a gnome, and too light to set off the pit that the kobolds had set to not trip if they had to run across - a clever tactic, as pursuers wouldnt think there would be a trap on ground the kobolds just fled across...). i took some damage from the fall and the spikes at the bottom, but not too much. the kobolds, however, were alerted to our presence...

using their secret passages, they harrassed us constantly, never getting close enough to effectively engage in melee, thus keeping me out of the fight, but darting in and out to make ranged attacks, from hidden alcoves, arrow slots camofladged in the walls, etc. by the third encounter, we had used up our meager supply of curing potions, and by the fifth, my lay on hands was spent. our ranger did manage to kill a few of our tormentors returning missile fire, and the rogue inflicted some damage as well, but, alas, my dex was low and ranged combat not my forte, so, again, i was fairly neutralized. the wizard was fine, having mage armor, and hiding behind me, but soon that went south as well.

once we were weakened by the pestering attacks, the kobold sorcerer made his appearance. using a wand of magic missiles (1 per round), and constantly hit and running, he had us in a near panic.

the tactics employed by the kobolds had the secondary effect of herding us into their traps, and not giving the rogue time to do his job.

so, by the time the wizard fell unconcious, we decided perhaps we should find a nice roving band of hobgoblins who would be nice enough to give us a stand up fight, and slunk out of the mines with our tails between our legs...

edit: and these are tactics kobolds have been described as using since 1e AD&D and every edition since...

agoraderek
06-21-2008, 11:06 PM
kilrex, wait, YOU were the dm in the game i just decribed? and here i thought it was jeremy the whole time...

starfalconkd
06-22-2008, 08:13 AM
Kobolds are whatever the dm wants them to be. They can be fodder, they can be an elite band of psycho monsters with templates and class levels, or they can just be kobolds. They have a lot of handicaps to overcome but they have several advantages: they are clever, they are small creatures with movement 30, they are really good with traps, and they are great at mining. Kobold lairs are generally too small for medium size creatures to navigate without squeezing, filled with traps, and loaded with fast moving kobolds who know how to use their traps.
As a dm, if I use kobolds, be afraid.
As a player I'm inherently nervous about meeting kobolds in game, they frighten me. I underestimated them once and almost got a tpk for my trouble.

tesral
06-22-2008, 09:14 AM
Any small creature is fodder if the DM simply runs them against the party in a conga line.

I never run Kobolds or Goblins that way. Kobolds are by far the sneakier of the two.

Without going into the exact details (it was many years ago) I had a party enter a dungeon with a Kobold colony in it. Day one, they had light contact, killed a couple of Kobolds and left for the night. Bad Move.

They came back to find the place a killing ground. The Kobolds had worked through the night to set up traps, lanes of fire and they broke out the stocks of poisoned arrows. Gee, why is the floor wet and slick? Might be the barrel of lamp oil the Kobolds spread all over the floor and other such fun thing. Why are they throwing a torch?

Yes, they managed to kill a few more Kobolds, but were driven out of the dungeon when they ran out of neutralize poison and started to have to carry party members.

The next day they opened the doors to find the entry hall filled with rubble. They gave it up. Good thing too. The Kobolds had spent the night dragging a mummy up to the entrance, and filling it in there. Dig through the rubble and you get to meet Mummy.

The Kobolds lost 10 warriors. Against a party of five, But they saved their women and children which is what they were out to do. Five where killed in that first encounter with the PCs got the drop on a Hunting Party on their way out.

The second big Kobold encounter was a mutual standoff. The PCs could not move the Kobolds and the Kobolds could not move the PCs. That one the PCs did eventually get the upper hand when they found both ends of the Kobold cave and smoked them out. As the Kobolds came staggering out they faced a killing ground and an ultimatum to move or die. They had their women and kids with them, they surrendered. At that few Kobolds were killed, they were forced to move. The only reason the PCs won is they used Kobold tactics against the Kobolds. They also had the aid of Goblin labor to move the cords of greenwood required for the fire. Goblins don't like Koblods and were quire willing to aid in getting rid of them.

RivenNookRavenClaw
06-22-2008, 02:07 PM
In 3.5e I have killed more kobolds in my sleep as a wizard than there are grains of sand in my back yard. They're fodder.

(See, that's how you start a new thread and not derail someone else's thread.)


When my friend Michael was DM he gave them levels and skills. I hated those barbarisn kobolds.

i hated his kobolds from level one when they had none of that stuff. He based a whole series of our levels, character level 1 to 4 around those bleeding things!

And we never ate one because they are not fodder...they are sly evil creatures with mad plots and diabolical schemes to mate with extraplanar powers and breed a new race of super kobolds. They scare me. :faint:

nijineko
06-22-2008, 09:55 PM
it's all in the hands of the dm. dm can make them fodder or ferocious, depending on how they are played. my players tend towards fear and respect for kobolds.

=D

agoraderek
06-22-2008, 11:17 PM
it's all in the hands of the dm. dm can make them fodder or ferocious, depending on how they are played. my players tend towards fear and respect for kobolds.

=D

you're right, it all comes down to the dm, period. now, i will say that 4e may help inexperienced and new dms be more effective, but if your dm hasn't had "it" since, say, 2nd ed, well, he isnt going to suddenly have an epiphany because the combat system has changed...

Necrite
06-23-2008, 04:04 AM
I've never used kobolds in any adventures I've run - I typically prefer goblinoids - but I would treat them much like goblins. How is that, you ask? Read the posts above, there's some great examples of how the little guys learned to deal with the big ones always picking on them. :D

InfoStorm
06-23-2008, 08:43 AM
All the 4th edition MM do is to PRECREATE some leveled kobolds, something DM's used to do on their own. YES, it is a time saver, I will give it that, but NO it did not suddenly make kobolds any stronger than before, and anyone who had delt with my Dragon Adept/Shamon Kobolds will tell you.

(yes, House rule, Kobolds consider either of the Dragon Shamon or Dragon Adept classes as a favored class, but only 1 of them)

Skunkape
06-23-2008, 09:49 AM
I would imagine a group of Kobolds if run correctly would use similar tactics as the Goblins in LoR, except that with the Kobolds, there would be all kinds of traps and concealed tunnels/ambush areas that would allow them to harrass the PCs without exposing themselves to retaliation.

I had the PCs that were running through one of my adventures so upset with a group of Kobolds that they retreated from the keep the Kobolds were in habiting and proceeded to burn the place down.:biggrin:

tesral
06-23-2008, 10:07 AM
I would imagine a group of Kobolds if run correctly would use similar tactics as the Goblins in LoR, except that with the Kobolds, there would be all kinds of traps and concealed tunnels/ambush areas that would allow them to harrass the PCs without exposing themselves to retaliation.

I had the PCs that were running through one of my adventures so upset with a group of Kobolds that they retreated from the keep the Kobolds were in habiting and proceeded to burn the place down.:biggrin:

"Fall back and nuke it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure." Never a bad policy where Kobolds are concerned.

The deal is the Kobolds I was dealing with were never even leveled. It wasn't the direct confrontation that was hard, it was they never confronted you directly. They would hit you from murder holes, lure you into dead falls, (cleverly designed so they could cross the triggers but big folk could not), and in general drive you to total distraction and injury.

The challenge of Kobolds has never lain in their combat skills, but their non combat skills and ability to prepare the ground.

Skunkape
06-24-2008, 07:09 AM
"Fall back and nuke it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure." Never a bad policy where Kobolds are concerned.

The deal is the Kobolds I was dealing with were never even leveled. It wasn't the direct confrontation that was hard, it was they never confronted you directly. They would hit you from murder holes, lure you into dead falls, (cleverly designed so they could cross the triggers but big folk could not), and in general drive you to total distraction and injury.

The challenge of Kobolds has never lain in their combat skills, but their non combat skills and ability to prepare the ground.

LOL!

That's a pretty good description of what my PCs had to deal with. The place was pretty much honey-combed with secret passages and objects that the Kobolds could hide in.

In fact at one point the PCs chased a couple of them up a set of stairs into a tower only to find a room at the top full of barrels. So it became a game of wac-a-mole or wac-a-Kobold as the case may be.

They finally got tired of trying to find the Kobolds and ended up rolling the very barrels the Kobolds were hiding in. Granted, it was a dizzying bumpy ride for the Kobolds, but by the time the PCs realized that the barrel they rolled down the stairs had the Kobolds in it and got back down the stairs, the Kobolds had fled into their secret passage network.:lol:

But yeah, the best way to play them is to use their prep of the surrounding terrain! Oh, and these Kobolds were not leveled either and the as the PCs watched the keep burn, a couple of them noticed quite a few Kobolds escaping out a tunnel, a couple hundred yards away at the edge of the forest.

Oldgamer
06-24-2008, 07:24 AM
Kobolds, when given character classes can be quite deadly. Two circumstances:


1st level group of 5 (normal characters, barbarian, pally, rogue scout, sorcerer, cleric) was severely damaged by one kobold druid and his wolf animal companion. He sat off in the woods and Produced Flame over and over at their butts, (1 minute/level and he was 3rd level druid I think). He nearly took out the rogue and the sorcerer as his wolf almost killed the pally before the barbarian was able to out pace him and catch him for a brutal beat-down, raged half orc style. :biggrin:
Another 1st level group in Worlds Largest Dungeon came upon a level 3 Kobold Ranger and his boss the level 3 Kobold Druid who had a Flaming Sphere prepared (they have good spots and listens) when they heard the group coming to the door. The FS smashed into anyone coming into the doorway as the Ranger peppered them with arrows. The Druid would heal the Ranger anytime someone was lucky enough not to not get hit by the FS and get a shot in, so they kept going like the Energizer Bunny.

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
06-24-2008, 10:00 AM
Seems that kobolds, and to a lesser degree, goblins were always fodder since the '70s. It took a clever Dm to remedy this. One thing i do like about 4.0 is that they got their respect.

Thoth-Amon

tesral
06-24-2008, 10:57 AM
Seems that kobolds, and to a lesser degree, goblins were always fodder since the '70s. It took a clever Dm to remedy this. One thing i do like about 4.0 is that they got their respect.

Thoth-Amon

Among the more intelligent of the gamers they have always had respect. They never needed to get it. That is the point we have been making here. All 4e is doing is holding the DMs hand and showing him exactly the points to hit to get the results we have talking about.

It is neither rocket science, a sudden change, or a major discovery. It's Kobold business as usual.

MooseAlmighty
06-24-2008, 12:14 PM
All 4e is doing is holding the DMs hand and showing him exactly the points to hit to get the results we have talking about.


Isn't that a great thing for new DMs?

After some experience, they'll be whipping up devious creations of their own!


Frankly a lot of these threads feel like they carry an expectation that anyone playing DnD should have the knowledge of a 30-year vet; it's an elite hobby so hit the bricks if you're too dumb to get it right away; published worlds are for lazy people, etc.

Or maybe I just need a couple weeks away from the boards to game and have fun.

tesral
06-24-2008, 02:19 PM
Isn't that a great thing for new DMs?

After some experience, they'll be whipping up devious creations of their own!


Perhaps, but the information has never been missing.

Let's see. 0e D&D "Monsters and Treasure" Ugh, the monsters are not even in alphabetical order. How did we ever play this? By Hera's Hoary Hearthkeeping how? Well, no Kobolds. On to AD&D

AD&D 1e Monster Manual: Has Kobolds, absolutely no social or behavioral suggestions other than "hates all other life". Typical of the era. Conclusion, without DM creativity 1e Kobolds are fighter fodder.

AD&D 2e Monstrous Compendium: Mentions Kobold waves of over whelming odds and also mentions using traps.

AD&D Monstrous Manual: Much the same, but more social data.

D&D 3e Monster Manual: The traps get first mention. Waves are less preferred and luring prey into traps is the prefered method of attack.

D&D 3.5 Monster Manual: Much the same text, traps first.


Conclusion: Kobolds have evolved from an AD&D kill'm by the bucket monster to the devious traps and ambush makers we have now. 3.5e has them fully evolved as ambush and trap preferring small creatures. I also remember quite a few Dragon articles on the subject. Forgive me if I don't go digging for them right now.

4e adds on that by giving you some additional tatics. However they are fully fleshed as nasty ambushers by 3.0. Treated as such in AD&D 2e by those that care to. By the book 3.5 Kobolds are not fodder.

http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com/SS_Modeler/10yqdg7.jpg

Original source: RPG modivational posters, lost the URL.

Dimthar
06-24-2008, 03:49 PM
Are 3.5 Kobolds "Fodder"?

No if handled correctly.

Did some DMs ran 3.5 Kobolds as "Fodder"?

Yes, and the very fact this thread exists is proof of it.

Are there any DMs that think that 4E helps them (by holding their hands and babysitting every step of the encounter) to not run Kobolds as "Fodder" by using the "Additional Tactics mentioned in the previous post"?

Yes, which at the end means more people having good experiences while battling Kobolds.

...

Is anything else we are discussing here? Oh yeah!! Valdar's post reminded me ... Strategies on how to run Kobolds so they don't end being "Fodder". Thanks Valdar ..

.

Valdar
06-24-2008, 03:56 PM
They're not particularly intelligent, but they're very crafty. Crafty enough to know that in a straight-up fight, their best strategy is to scatter in all directions.

Last game I ran, a PC fell into a pit trap that had a nasty monster in it. The Kobolds saw this, grabbed their javelins, and raced to the edge of the pit, screaming "Fair Fight! Fair Fight!".

To a Kobold, a fair fight _is_ chucking javelins at you from the top of a pit while you deal with one of their "pets". Squaring off one-on-one with you on level ground isn't a fair fight for them at all- they know they'll get creamed.

Dimthar
06-24-2008, 04:13 PM
This must likely is effective when used against only one opponent. But is common to see (movies, tv shows, etc) smaller creatures bringing down a big guy/monster buy using lassos to inmobilize it.

Also they may try to put out the "light / torches" to force the victims to fight in the dark.

tesral
06-24-2008, 06:45 PM
Also they may try to put out the "light / torches" to force the victims to fight in the dark.

A Kobold shaman with an "out with the lights" spell. That could be fun. Not darkness, that doesn't stop the torchs from burning.


This must likely is effective when used against only one opponent. But is common to see (movies, tv shows, etc) smaller creatures bringing down a big guy/monster buy using lassos to inmobilize it.

A variation would be clotheslining. Placing wires above the heads of the kobolds but in shoulder-neck range of larger creatures. Trip wires could be strung this way or the wire itself could be the trap. Toss a few javelins, run in plain view. Even if the larger creatures spot the thin lines in the semi dark they work to break off pursuit.

Tension release traps as well. It's the tension of the line that holds the trap closed. Release the trip wire and all hell breaks loose. Mix and match types.

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
06-24-2008, 07:48 PM
"Among the more intelligent of the gamers they have always had respect."

I agree. I was speaking of the rules...the game, not about "intelligent" gamers. Btw, just because many DM's didnt run them to their potential, doesnt not in any way mean those folks werent intelligent. Your wording is condenscending.

"They never needed to get it. That is the point we have been making here."

I was making the same point in a round-a-bout way.

"All 4e is doing is holding the DMs hand and showing him exactly the points to hit to get the results we have talking about."

Yes and no. 4.0 made them more dangerous by way of rules and design, unlike the earlier editions. Even in earlier editions, many writers saw the error of many DM's, writers, and players based off of the way the game was written, both in the MM, and in the modules. So in response, there were many articles in Dragon that taught players to go beyond the MM and kick in the imaginative juices. E.g. the special forces kobolds (not sure of the title for it's been 20 year or more ago). It was then that kobolds started getting their respect by a great many more DM's.

I love kobolds and even goblins, and since the '70's, i made sure to make them dangerous. I would agree that many DM's throughout the 30 year history... many were teens, mind you, and as such just followed the rules, but the good players always made the "fodder" dangerous.

Would you believe i ran across a DM, just before 4.0's release that tried to make them fodder. We had a vote and i was voted to run the campaign from here on out. The players were quite surprised just how awesome even the lowliest creatures can be when ran by an intelligent DM. Believe me when i say, they assume everything is dangerous now.

Moral of the story, you can play a fun game by the rules or you can play a fantastic game when using a little imagination and infusing that imagination into your games.

To me, Kobolds equals traps, deception, poisen, and a good use of the enviornment, amongst other things... and yes, they were always vicious, just not written into modules and the old MM's that way.

Sounds like our campaigns are equally deadly. My hat goes off to you for seeing the potential in all Gygax's lil creatures and running, no doubt, deadly, creative, and fun campaigns.

Thoth-Amon

tesral
06-24-2008, 11:29 PM
Just for a switch up, the Kobold in Folklore (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobold), the wikipedia article. Fairly accurate from my other reading.


The kobold is a sprite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprite_%28creature%29) of German folklore (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_folklore). Although usually invisible, a kobold can materialise in the form of an animal, fire, a human being, and a mundane object. The most common depictions of kobolds show them as humanlike figures the size of small children. Kobolds who live in human homes wear the clothing of peasants; those who live in mines are hunched and ugly; and kobolds who live on ships smoke pipes and wear sailor clothing.

There is more of course. Typical of the AD&D era the critter was hijacked and made into something totally different.

Grimwell
06-25-2008, 12:43 AM
I'd counter that D&D, as designed, has zero intent to live up to traditional folklore. Gygax and the others at the beginning took all kinds of inspiration from it, but then they twisted it as hard as they needed to in order for fun to be served.

Such as Kobolds, who definitely don't match their folklore.

tesral
06-25-2008, 12:51 AM
I'd counter that D&D, as designed, has zero intent to live up to traditional folklore. Gygax and the others at the beginning took all kinds of inspiration from it, but then they twisted it as hard as they needed to in order for fun to be served.

Such as Kobolds, who definitely don't match their folklore.

Oh yea, they plundered the stores of folklore and myth without mercy and took no prisoners.

Some creatures, like the Banshee I have seen fit to return to their more traditional roots. Others like the Kobold I have not.

It's never a bad thing to understand the roots of many of these beasts, even if you never intend to do a thing with it. Knowledge is power. I'm not suggesting D&D Kobolds should be returned to their German roots. Heck, I'm rather fond of the little lizardly guys as is. But we should understand those roots.

agoraderek
06-25-2008, 12:53 AM
Let's see. 0e D&D "Monsters and Treasure" Ugh, the monsters are not even in alphabetical order. How did we ever play this? By Hera's Hoary Hearthkeeping how? Well, no Kobolds. On to AD&D

they're there, they just lumped them in with goblins, look on the reference table under the listing "goblins/kobolds".

Moritz
06-25-2008, 07:37 AM
I have always loved Kobolds. Kept them mostly intelligent and went along with the mythology that they were distant-distant relatives to dragons. Which motivated most of the Kobolds in my world to be more than just goblinoid grunts or cannon fodder. I've even used several as goodish/neutral NPC's which became party members. Often being sorcerers or rogues.

tesral
06-25-2008, 10:29 AM
I have always loved Kobolds. Kept them mostly intelligent and went along with the mythology that they were distant-distant relatives to dragons. Which motivated most of the Kobolds in my world to be more than just goblinoid grunts or cannon fodder. I've even used several as goodish/neutral NPC's which became party members. Often being sorcerers or rogues.

The Nag's Head Adventuring Club has a Kobold named Entree that is the club cook. He does a good job too.

kaibrightwing
06-26-2008, 07:43 PM
i can make a small group of kobolds make mid-level adventuring group fear kobold and when you have a group of venten players say "oh shit" to kobold than you have a monster that good at any level.

Greylond
07-08-2008, 11:43 PM
Two Words: Tucker's Kobolds
http://tuckerskobolds.com/

Anything less and you're doing a disservice to Kobolds... :D

agoraderek
07-08-2008, 11:50 PM
Two Words: Tucker's Kobolds
http://tuckerskobolds.com/

Anything less and you're doing a disservice to Kobolds... :D


yep. that's what i'm talking about... ;)

Tomcat1066
07-09-2008, 05:21 AM
I've come to believe that in large enough numbers, anything goes from fodder to serious threat to most adventurers. Couple that with the tactics I've already learned from this thread, and kobolds will be dangerous in the hands of any DM ;)

Kilrex
07-09-2008, 11:33 AM
Two Words: Tucker's Kobolds
http://tuckerskobolds.com/

Anything less and you're doing a disservice to Kobolds... :D

Very nice, my fav baddy is the Kobold and Tucker did proper service to them. As the group goes up in level, I don't make Kobolds more powerful, just smarter and better organized.

fmitchell
07-09-2008, 11:48 AM
Two Words: Tucker's Kobolds
http://tuckerskobolds.com/

Anything less and you're doing a disservice to Kobolds... :D

Yes, thanks for posting this. Players and GMs forget that knowing how to use the environment for tactical advantage can matter more than having a +5 Sword of Deep Hurting.

Greylond
07-09-2008, 11:57 AM
One thing to keep in mind, a community of monsters of any kind is going to fight to protect their lair as viciously as they can. The ones that don't disappear. The ones that are left over are the most effective ones. Think of it as Evolution in Action... ;)

Dragon2605
08-06-2008, 07:57 AM
Kobolds can be quite dangerous when played by a really good DM. They can also cause party destruction by really bad rolling by the players. :lol:

Thriondel Half-Elven
08-07-2008, 10:27 PM
i agree with ron. they are just fodder. Either being used to fill a low level dungeon. or used as fodder by a larger, more evil foe

Dragon2605
08-08-2008, 03:45 AM
Tucker's Kobolds must have been a very painful experience. It goes to show what wienie lil kobolds in the hands of good DM can do to a party. However, they are generally fodder.

DMMike
08-08-2008, 09:36 AM
Okay DMs, I want answers.

Why do kobolds need to be the fodder? There are plenty of humanoids to fill that half CR - humans, dwarves, hobgoblins...most of them, actually.

(d20SRD.org puts kobolds at 1/2CR, but my 3.0 MM puts them at 1/6...right next to donkeys)

tesral
08-08-2008, 11:38 AM
It all comes down to how the DM handles the encounters. A badly run Dragon can be fodder. It really does comes down to how you do it, not the stats of the monster itself.

On the face of it, 1/2 CR, means fodder. Run them straight at the PCs in an endless line of direct frontal assaults and yea, fodder city. Place them in holes behind traps and attack sneaky like and not fodder.

I could clear Tucker's Kobods. It would be a major assault, It woul;d cost a bit of money. it would not leave much behind me, but there wouldn't be Kobolds any more either.

Yes and no, Koblds are as tough and sneaky as you make them, or not as the case may be.

nijineko
08-08-2008, 05:07 PM
it's all a matter of relative perception. don't forget that a 1st level kobold can technically qualify for epic level feats.

Scifione
08-17-2008, 05:33 PM
In general Kobald are ment to be fodder. That is to say that kobald are monsters that are incountered in group for PC 1st-3rd level. If handled correctly with leaders, they pose a threat to 5th-6th level PC easily.

The formentioned is very true. I have experience such stories as DM and player. One of my favorite tricks is to let the fighter finnally have a wack at a kobald. He goes charging in only to find that the kobald is a half-dragon kobald barbarian with a full blade. "Ow that hurt! Run!"

DMMike
08-17-2008, 10:37 PM
One of my favorite tricks is to let the fighter finnally have a wack at a kobald. He goes charging in only to find that the kobald is a half-dragon kobald barbarian with a full blade. "Ow that hurt! Run!"

Ah, the beautiful metagaming that ensues from such an encounter.

- Hopefully, all kobolds look like "barbarians."
- A full blade can be spotted from 150 feet, no?
- A half-dragon kobold would probably have wings, or maybe look a little different from most kobolds.

Scifone brings up the touchy subject that DMs love and PCs hate: how do I judge an adversary before I engage said adversary? A DM owes it to his players to confer at least a hint that an enemy is more challenging than the rest.

It's the same metagaming problem that traps bring up: how do I know there's not a horrible trap waiting for me in every dungeon room? Answer: the antagonists are just as practical (especially if they're dragons with 20+ intelligence) as the protagonists, which means that a little empathy goes a long way.

About the kobolds - I don't even use them, since I have way more than enough humanoids to fill the kill-me-please hordes.

tesral
08-17-2008, 10:40 PM
It's the same metagaming problem that traps bring up: how do I know there's not a horrible trap waiting for me in every dungeon room? Answer: the antagonists are just as practical (especially if they're dragons with 20+ intelligence) as the protagonists, which means that a little empathy goes a long way.


"Hold it, I think I just failed a spot check." --Order of the Stick

nijineko
08-17-2008, 11:13 PM
"Hold it, I think I just failed a spot check." --Order of the Stick

in which case they are seriously in trouble, as traps require a search check. :lol:

Scifione
08-19-2008, 08:36 PM
Scifone brings up the touchy subject that DMs love and PCs hate: how do I judge an adversary before I engage said adversary? A DM owes it to his players to confer at least a hint that an enemy is more challenging than the rest.

Oh, so true!

I usually give some descriptive detail, allow a spot check, or a skill check to give the play a clue. But you know what they say, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink."

I hate metagaming.

rabkala
08-19-2008, 10:15 PM
Metagamers tend to be a crunchy bunch. More rules orientated than the rest and the first to call foul! You would never get that past a self respecting meta-gamer or rules lawyer without a 2 hour 'discussion' of all the rules that might intersect the situation.

I love Kobolds! My last cohort was a Kobold Swashbuckler who was destroyed by a nasty Dracolich. I raised that poor guy from a pup....:(
My best cohort was a Kobold monk whom I converted to good and slowly taught him the art. He was a Karmic striking/tripping fool!

Kobolds can be anything you want in 3.5. Insert some goodies like templates or feats from the Dracnomonicon, and they can be truly incredible. I guess you just have to want to root for the underdog once in awhile.

DMMike
08-20-2008, 09:53 AM
Or the underlizard.

Jcosby
08-20-2008, 11:16 AM
Oh, so true!

I usually give some descriptive detail, allow a spot check, or a skill check to give the play a clue. But you know what they say, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink."

I hate metagaming.


I don't care for metagamers either. But they are oh so much fun to kill, even more so then rules lawyers. When I run a game I make sure that I confer two things to players. 1. Any house rules changes 2. That all rules are just guide lines and as such can be changed by me at anytime.

Again, if I made a standard rule change (Aka House Rule) I make that known before the first game is played. But, to say that all Kobolds are just straight out of the MM with standard AC, HPs, etc.. that's a huge mistake that most Metagamers make. They usually don't make that mistake twice. That also of course goes for any monster, npc, or what ever. It's good to change things up on players from time to time, it keeps them honest. Also I completely disagree with the fact that a "special" Kobold or any monster for that matter would look "different" at first glance then any other monster of it's kind.

Sure sometimes a Kobold Shaman might have a staff as a weapon which most "out of the book" Kobold's don't. The problem there is "Staff" to most metagamers equals caster which is usually the first target to go down. Even a lowly Kobold would figure this out after a couple of levels. "Hmm when I hold this staff the longshanks always attack me first." Next time you run into that Kobold he might be holding a club and one of the lower Kobold's is forced to hold the staff. Very Clever...

Adding, stat's, Hps, class levels, etc can make encoutners usually much more fun. One thing I have seen some DM's do though is play "low" INT creatures to smart. Those mindless automations (Zombies) aren't going to make perfect moves to create flanking etc all of the time. Some monsters are just mindless and attack what ever is closest or hit them last etc. Also another thing that can tip metaplayer gamers off is when the party of 4-5th level characters runs into Kobolds... Hmm maybe they are more then meets the eye.. (no not autobots.. :) They will automaticly expect them to be beefed up with levels, magic etc.

One thing I like to do is use them in the traditional fodder role in a combat with a higher level monster but have them work together with the higher level monster and as clever as they can be.

Zeneak
08-20-2008, 11:23 AM
i love kobalds. if they didn't have that ever so slight problem of having no strength i would probably play one. just to be traptastic at game.

tesral
08-20-2008, 02:39 PM
i love kobalds. if they didn't have that ever so slight problem of having no strength i would probably play one. just to be traptastic at game.

So do a sorcerer, and give the staff to the longshanks fighter.

nijineko
08-20-2008, 04:06 PM
there is now a skill trick that can be used for the purpose of appraising an opponent. oriental adventures had something similar.

if we aren't using those rules, then i allow a bluff vs sense motive type check with an appropriate bonus based on level for characters to size each other up. ^^ it pretty much boils down to a level check. for climatic encounters, i impose a morale penalty for whomever fails the check. ^^ the stare-down across the bridge.

everyone has at least one fight on a rickety bridge above a chasm, right?

Zeneak
08-20-2008, 04:29 PM
there is now a skill trick that can be used for the purpose of appraising an opponent. oriental adventures had something similar.

if we aren't using those rules, then i allow a bluff vs sense motive type check with an appropriate bonus based on level for characters to size each other up. ^^ it pretty much boils down to a level check. for climatic encounters, i impose a morale penalty for whomever fails the check. ^^ the stare-down across the bridge.

everyone has at least one fight on a rickety bridge above a chasm, right?

Actually i have never had a fight on a rickety bridge and there was no chasm either.

Scifione
08-20-2008, 07:56 PM
Does anyone know where to find starting age, aging, or weight charts for kobalds as with like PC races? :confused: I have not seen any, so I had to ask.

nijineko
08-20-2008, 08:16 PM
i don't recall seeing any, but one could certainly simply pick from any other player race that has a lifespan that seems similar enough to the dm. =D

rabkala
08-20-2008, 09:44 PM
Does anyone know where to find starting age, aging, or weight charts for kobalds as with like PC races? :confused: I have not seen any, so I had to ask.
I am pretty sure the Dracnomonicon had something. They have a rather short lifespan, less then 50 years if memory serves.

DMMike
08-21-2008, 12:19 AM
Do the aging as halflings, and weight as halflings X .75.

Thriondel Half-Elven
08-21-2008, 06:39 PM
Do the aging as halflings, and weight as halflings X .75.
thats seems like it would work great. they are a little smaller and more frail than halflings. I think

wiggins007
12-02-2011, 11:27 PM
All I have to say is Dragon Mountain from AD&D 2nd Edition. If you have ever played through that than you know Kobold's are something to be feared.

tesral
12-02-2011, 11:35 PM
Not to mention undead Kobold threads.

fmitchell
12-03-2011, 08:08 PM
Not to mention undead Kobold threads.

Threads are never finished, only abandoned.

nijineko
12-05-2011, 02:28 AM
no kobold left behind! they will never abandon their own....


^^

tesral
12-05-2011, 02:30 AM
Yes, never leave meal volunteers behind.

nijineko
12-05-2011, 02:43 AM
don't forget the soy sauce.

tesral
12-05-2011, 02:54 AM
Garlic, garlic is a must.

Malruhn
12-06-2011, 11:16 AM
Now that the tread has been fully rezzed...

I once ran a campaign early in my DMing career where, like Tesral mentioned above, DRAGONS were fodder. I will confess right now that I was an idiot.

Regarding Kobolds - I also ran a campaign arc where TEN kobolds were able to completely eliminate (read: near TPK, party had to run away like sorority girls in a slasher movie) a SIXTH level party. The crowning victory was when the party rounded a corner on a trail and saw a SINGLE kobold with a spear blocking their path - shaking like Don Knotts in ANY of his movies. He demanded "tribute", and when the party scoffed, he attempted an intimidation check (at -20) and said, "For this, you will DIE!!"

This was, of course, the signal for all of the other (four remaining) kobolds to launch their ambush. They rolled a log down the hill which triggered about 30 kobold-like shapes to rise up out of the undergrowth - and the four started moving about and throwing darts at -6 to hit due to range. Since it had been a running battle from the start, the Cleric was out of heals, the wizard was out of spells, and the fighter was out of patience. "CHAAAAARGE!!!" One spiked pit trap later, the party turned and fled - dragging the unconscious wizard and fighter with them.

Yeah, kobolds are only fodder if they are DMed to be fodder. They are of average intelligence and it says in the description that they are CUNNING. Ever since I pulled my novice-DM head out of my novice-butt, I've ALWAYS played to the NPC's intelligence.

Kobolds just wanna be left ALONE...

nijineko
12-10-2011, 09:20 PM
it's like trying to prove or disprove something when you have no evidence either way. anything can be fodder if it is dm-ed that way. conversely, anything can destroy the party given the right in-game circumstances and the right dm.

for example: a simple pit trap is no big deal. fill it with spikes for a bit of added spice. still not that big a deal... but if you fill it with whip cream, now that's a death trap. can't see, can't breath, can't climb, can't breath, probably can't gesture well enough for somatic, can't find your specific spell components, can't swim.... without psionics or magic items or maybe certain types of magic or class features/feats that character is dead, dead, dead.