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boulet
06-18-2008, 12:54 PM
I went across a report (http://isabout.wordpress.com/2008/06/01/24-hours-on-the-shadowfell/) from a Keep on the Shadowfell game played at a Finnish convention. The report is quite long and detailed, but it's worth the reading at a sarcastic level. It's a perfect example of "what not to do when running a module". Beginner GMs should read it IMO just as negative pedagogy. It would be a good script for a humorous webcomic of D&D gone wrong. It doesn't provide much of a critic about D&D 4e because the game group is clearly dysfunctional. The Keep on Shadowfell looks like a very poor choice from WotC as a demo module though.

Enjoy ;)

Webhead
06-18-2008, 01:06 PM
Yeesh! :)

cplmac
06-18-2008, 07:00 PM
Yikes! :bolt:

Igbutton
06-18-2008, 07:43 PM
I heard that about every GM that did the 4E stuff actually. All combat, no rp, only creativity allowed was tactics in battle and even that was limited.

I'm not sure how they expected to represent a complete rpg with only a fraction of the content.

tesral
06-18-2008, 08:02 PM
Not much to add to that. He said exactly what I have been hearing elsewhere and what reading the rules myself is telling me. Encounter based miniatures game. Oh, we might have role-playing.

Now that could be bad design of Shadowfells, it could be bad GMing, or it could be 4e sucks. On the gripping hand, it could be all of the above. Again we have the comparison to Decent and the comparison to computer games. In this case the author though the compared games did a better job. One might think that where there is smoke, their might be fire.

All in all the blog post reinforces my opinion of 4e. Frankly, so do the glowing reports of 4e, because they glow for exactly the wrong reasons. Radium glows. It's not good for you.

Webhead
06-18-2008, 10:57 PM
Now that could be bad design of Shadowfells...

Entirely possible.


...it could be bad GMing...

By the sound of it, most definately.


...or it could be 4e sucks.

Possibly, but not likely the primary source of the demo games' strife.

After all, my favorite RPG (Star Wars D6) has occasionally been turned into a hideous abomination in the hands of some GMs. And even the suckiest of game systems (World of Synnabar) can be made into a romping good time by a talented and enthusiastic GM. I've witnessed both.

Don't blame the horse for the rider's mistake. But if it turns out the horse is lame...by all means, put it down.

MooseAlmighty
06-19-2008, 09:17 AM
On the gripping hand, .

Wow... I have never heard that quoted in conversation before:eek: Bonus points to Tesral.

On Topic - I would mostly blame the GM or the group itself. The amount of roleplay is driven by them in any game system.

As an intro module, Keep seems fine to me. The opportunities to RP are presented with nice noob DM tips included. I don't know about everyone else but at 11 yrs old playing Keep on the Borderlands, we didn't RP much either beyond battle cries. You grow into that with experience I think.

Finally I think the new PHB and DMG present much more on character development, RPing and campaign design than 3.x did. Whatever you think of the mechanics, I think they presented much more material for first time gamers.

boulet
06-19-2008, 09:41 AM
Personally I wouldn't have kept on playing with such a restrictive GM for more than a couple hours. I don't need railroading anymore. Been there, done that, give me an interactive story or I'll leave the table...

The thing is the player who wrote the report is related to his GM. It's probably why he coped with the 24 hours of tedious railroading. He wasn't going to antagonize his brother or sth in this line. Plus it was at a convention, so probably it would have been very disruptive not to tag along with what the GM was trying to achieve.

tesral
06-19-2008, 03:50 PM
Personally I wouldn't have kept on playing with such a restrictive GM for more than a couple hours. I don't need railroading anymore. Been there, done that, give me an interactive story or I'll leave the table...

Pretty much the first time I got an idea quashed because it wasn't in the module.

nijineko
06-28-2008, 04:05 PM
And even the suckiest of game systems (World of Synnabar) can be made into a romping good time by a talented and enthusiastic GM. I've witnessed both.

Don't blame the horse for the rider's mistake. But if it turns out the horse is lame...by all means, put it down.

funny you should mention that... that was exactly my experience with Synnabar. ^^

Moritz
07-02-2008, 08:58 AM
So a "Finnish" convention? When did they have their "Starting" convention? :)

boulet
07-02-2008, 09:09 AM
They're waiting for the Swedish chef candidature tour to start, they use the same bus

http://www.saynotocrack.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/swedish_chef2.jpg

cplmac
07-02-2008, 09:04 PM
Ok, Who dropped boulet on his head? He's really coming with some goofy stuff now.

tesral
07-02-2008, 10:55 PM
Bork bork bork bork!