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ryan973
06-16-2008, 10:24 AM
Ok i have only been A player for the bast 12 years and a GM for 8, but I just dont like 4th. to me its an ok bourd game but just not DnD. That being said as much as i like 3.5 there are alot i dont like about it. Now i have discovered pathfinder. In my mind this is what the best case scenario could have been for fourth. So i am wondering what you guys think.

Also for the record i was not predisposed to hate fourth when i found out they were doing a fourth edition i freaked with excitement the more i heard the less i liked but do to pressure from my group i had to give it an honest chance and i confess to once more getting excited when i finally got my copies the day they came out. I read them, I called my group and we tried them out. They refuse to even waste another session on it. I have tried to get one of them at least to try it out again but they all refuse. If i am gonna play a bourd game i will play risk or red dragon inn.

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
06-16-2008, 12:56 PM
Hey Ryan973

I dont mind 4th edition. In fact, i actually like for a very odd reason: 2 players in my current campaign always split from the party to hog glory and end up getting themselves killed. With 4th, it forces you to play as a team. I like that.
I have played in every edition since i was 6 years of age (mid 70'S), so new editions dont bother me. However, i would agree with you that 4.0 doesnt really feel like DnD... unlike all the prior editions.
Another reason i tend to like the 4.0 edition is that their isnt a built in "sweet-spot," in regards to character levels. Before, it was near impossible to find players that wanted to go past 14th level, for obvious reasons. Now, we can go to 30th w/o any problems.

Thoth-Amon

Engar
06-16-2008, 01:13 PM
LOL, as a DM I always struggled after about 14th level to efficiently challenge the players while maintaining a sense of realism. I struggled and sometimes rode on the laurels of better earlier gaming, but the players were just getting started and wanted to play. Another player/DM in the group was excellent at high levels and felt the struggle early on. (This was mostly 2e and 3.x, I completely agree that Adv was designed for lower levels).

Valdar
06-16-2008, 02:05 PM
I haven't heard a lot about Pathfinder- What are the major differences between 3.5 and 3.75? (And, are they really calling it 3.75, or is that just the colloquial name for it?)

Riftwalker
06-16-2008, 02:29 PM
The Pathfinder page: http://paizo.com/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG

You can download the ruleset for free as a PDF.

Engar
06-16-2008, 02:38 PM
I am checking it out, thanks.

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
06-16-2008, 03:16 PM
I've heard Pathfinder referred to as... well... pathfinder, 3.5E(Enhanced), 3.5A(Alpha), & even 3.75. It's all the same. Even the head honcho over at Paizo has heard it all and doesnt mind all the names. He knows he's got a good system and never messes with the peddily stuff.

Now all this being said, what 3.75(see above) has that 4.0 messed up with(if i remember correctly), is that in 3.75, characters gain something every level and not just every other level(eol). This, in my opinion, guarantees a 4.5 or even a 5th edition in a few years. With all the good, and some not-so-good updates with the 4.0 system, i am amazed that they didnt take care of the proverbial elephant in the room, namely the eol.

Thoth-Amon

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
06-16-2008, 03:28 PM
I agree with Riftwalker. If you enjoy 3.5, then definitely download the free pdf.

Thoth-Amon

ryan973
06-16-2008, 03:31 PM
Well its all 3.5 compatible and they just call it Pathfinder. 3.75 is just the name alot of gamers keep using to refer to it. the biggest changes they made was making core races more powerful and balanced with some of the alternate races. This was to encurage players to make characters that are elves and half elves even though human is far more optimized. They are all a bit bette rbut balance so your choice is more a preference for role play than mechanics.
Next they added small abilitys to all the classes so that there are no longer any dead levels. One of the best aspects of what they did is make it so that going to level 20 in a single class is definetly an option.

And the biggest change is the skill system they combined a few skills same as fourth did but they added soem as well. And istead of multipliing skill points at first level you get the base at start and +3 to any class skill you put at least one rank in. for instance if a fighter puts one rank into intimidate he would have a total of 4 plus ability mod. It sounds strange but if you actually look at the free download and give it a shot it works out well. The best thing though is that it does not cost twice as much to put skill ranks in a cross class skill, you just dont get the +3. So now you can make a fighter you has theiving without having to take a level in rogue or having to dump all your points into it.

Finally the biggest and best part of Pathfinder is that they have released the game as they desighn it for free. so that the players can give feedback and suggestions on there forums as it is made. they have actually changed alot as they went due to player feedback. In my mind that means they care about there consumer not just his cash.

Kilrex
06-16-2008, 04:23 PM
I like alot of the Pathfinder changes. Some of them like cross class skills not costing twice as much, I have used for a while. I really like the reworked Cleric domains, Wiz specialization and built in Sorcerer bloodlines. Most of all I like the alternate to the companions/mounts/familiars. The rest of the changes don't make much of a difference, but they allow for more flexibility in how a character might develop.

agoraderek
06-16-2008, 09:07 PM
I like alot of the Pathfinder changes. Some of them like cross class skills not costing twice as much, I have used for a while. I really like the reworked Cleric domains, Wiz specialization and built in Sorcerer bloodlines. Most of all I like the alternate to the companions/mounts/familiars. The rest of the changes don't make much of a difference, but they allow for more flexibility in how a character might develop.

yeah, i downloaded the free pdfs, and even purchased a couple pdfs from paizo. if i do 'upgrade" to anything, im thinking it'll be pathfinder. good stuff, and backwards compatible with what i already have, homebrew world wise...

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
06-16-2008, 11:18 PM
Here's a 3.75 update from Erik Mona (Paizo publlishing):

I would not be at all surprised to see a book with more than 500 pages. 600 is not wholly out of the question.
We will take extra steps to ensure that the book has a good binding.
--Erik

ryan973
06-17-2008, 11:20 AM
Well most of there design team is made up of the old dragon magazine writers so you can expect good content. I really like there fighter fix and they made sorcerer look like something i would actually play now. Its funny but after downloading there stuff i find myself not thinking of multi classing anymore. They crazy builds i used to look for to get exactly what i wanted just are not needed. If i want to play a wizard who enslaves i dont need mind bender and crap i cvan just make an enchanter. if i want to make a war cleric i just make a cleric of a god of war, with domains apropriate for my choice. If i want a druid but not an animal companion there are rules right in the book for adding a domain as a replacement. I really liek what they have done.

MooseAlmighty
06-18-2008, 12:38 PM
So does their forthcoming book replace the 3.5 Players Handbook & DMG? Or do you still need that and then note where Pathfinder rules supercede 3.5 rules? I am really unclear on this.

My impression is that it is like Monte Cooks Aracana stuff - similar to DnD but is its own system for magic, monster manual, phb, setting, etc.

I'll have to check out the PDF over the weekend.

tesral
06-18-2008, 01:40 PM
Well I downloaded it. I'm looking at it. It's a sucky PDF to read on screen. I'll print the sucker. I'll likely buy the book it even if I never use the system as written simply to support the community. After all they are the ones still playing my game.

Engar
06-18-2008, 02:58 PM
I bought the 4e PHB already, but I cancelled my Amazon order for the 4e core books. I finally reviewed Pathfinder and I it is my game. Gary Gygax can roll back over and rest.

agoraderek
06-19-2008, 01:19 AM
I bought the 4e PHB already, but I cancelled my Amazon order for the 4e core books. I finally reviewed Pathfinder and I it is my game. Gary Gygax can roll back over and rest.

yeah, i've been in since the first alpha. good stuff, well thought out, and the guys at paizo know what they're doing. their "dragon" and "dungeon" editions were my favorite since the early days of ad&d for dragon, and the first 40 issues of dungeon.

plus, i liked that they asked for OUR input in what we wanted from pathfinder, directly, not just some "market research" that was interpreted to be what THEY wanted from it...

Talmek
06-19-2008, 02:16 AM
I just downloaded the Pathfinder Alpha, and I immediately like the way this seems to be working out. While I will be going through it when I get more time, does anyone know of any outright changes to the 3.5e ruleset that they will be using?

ryan973
06-19-2008, 07:39 AM
They actually changed a good amount of feats, for balance perposes. I alrady playtested a few of there hit point options but found that the players had way to many at low levels. they thing they did with hit points that i really did liek though is that aside from barbarian wich i think still d12. All other classes have there hit die based of of there BAB. so any class or prc that has a bab as a fighter gets a d10 and any class including wizard with the low bab gets a D6, so rogues and druids get a D8 and Rnagers finally have a D10.

Kilrex
06-19-2008, 10:52 AM
I just downloaded the Pathfinder Alpha, and I immediately like the way this seems to be working out. While I will be going through it when I get more time, does anyone know of any outright changes to the 3.5e ruleset that they will be using?

They changed alot of the combat options. Sunder, grapple, overrun, bullrush, trip all use a different Combat Manuever Bonus system which plays faster and is easier. Grapple is still kinda wonky but ehh. I finally got a chance to get players to use the new Barbarian rage system and Druid shapechanging rules. I think it is more concise and easier to use and harder to abuse.

The fact I only let Barbarians rage for a good reason and not just, "I got an initiative of 19, so I go first and I am raging, charging the Gobbo and attacking." So Barbarian in my group usually rages in round 2 or 3 and combat is usually finished before rage is used up. The new system lets you rage as long as you have points. And if combat is over before points are all spent, you can rage again later.

Some of the changes are small, but do affect play. I particularly like the use of only one Comabt Feat per round. The Combat Feats are a little more powerful than they were in 3.5, but a limit of 1 per round is nice.

MooseAlmighty
06-19-2008, 12:35 PM
They changed alot of the combat options. Sunder, grapple, overrun, bullrush, trip all use a different Combat Manuever Bonus system which plays faster and is easier. Grapple is still kinda wonky but ehh. I finally got a chance to get players to use the new Barbarian rage system and Druid shapechanging rules. I think it is more concise and easier to use and harder to abuse.

Some of the changes are small, but do affect play. I particularly like the use of only one Comabt Feat per round. The Combat Feats are a little more powerful than they were in 3.5, but a limit of 1 per round is nice.

Hmm so to my earlier question, if I am playing with Pathfinder and say recruit some players - we just use the Pathfinder rulebook? Don't need the Player's Handbook?

ryan973
06-19-2008, 12:47 PM
Nope all you need is pathfinder. but you would need the DMG and the monster manual.

agoraderek
06-19-2008, 12:52 PM
Hmm so to my earlier question, if I am playing with Pathfinder and say recruit some players - we just use the Pathfinder rulebook? Don't need the Player's Handbook?

you will probably be able to just use the pathfinder book when its released in beta, but for now, its more of an overlay with a bunch of changes in specific mechanics. skills are pretty much from the 3.5 phb, they just discuss the changes in the skills in the pathfinder alpha for the most part, and new spells. and you still need your monster books as well.

Webhead
06-19-2008, 01:14 PM
I browsed through the Pathfinder Alpha book last night and I can see that there was some very significant effort there to bring 3.5 in line and make it more balanced. I would say that any fan of 3.X would certainly do well to check it out as they will likely find a lot of things they like.

It comes across very much as "3.5 re-serviced", meaning that it feels very much like 3.5, but with a few tweaks to address some bugs or head-scratchers of the game.

This may be a very good thing if you're a fan of 3.X and you are looking to patch up some of the glitches.

If you're not a fan of 3.5 and/or you are looking for a more substantial clean-up, trim-down, or re-tooling of D&D, Pathfinder probably won't do much to change your mind on 3.5, but it's still clear that Pathfinder is a labor of love for 3e.

nijineko
06-21-2008, 08:16 PM
Another reason i tend to like the 4.0 edition is that their isnt a built in "sweet-spot," in regards to character levels. Before, it was near impossible to find players that wanted to go past 14th level, for obvious reasons. Now, we can go to 30th w/o any problems.

i've always enjoyed playing high-level campaigns. i haven't run into any snags yet... what problems do you find plauging your attempts?

tesral
06-21-2008, 09:52 PM
Another reason i tend to like the 4.0 edition is that their isnt a built in "sweet-spot," in regards to character levels. Before, it was near impossible to find players that wanted to go past 14th level, for obvious reasons. Now, we can go to 30th w/o any problems.

Thoth-Amon


LOL, as a DM I always struggled after about 14th level to efficiently challenge the players while maintaining a sense of realism.


The main problem here is not the edition. It is the d20 mechanic. It scales poorly. I don't know anyone that has yet played 4e at higher levels. Simply based on the mechanics of the d20 system, I predict problems balancing at higher levels, just as there are problems now.

Engar
06-21-2008, 11:56 PM
I know a great high level campaign is possible. I played with a DM very skilled at producing them. That included 2e (maybe Adv, but I think by that point it was 2e) and 3.5. He just had a real knack for epic level storytelling. Whenever I have a game that approaches that point I will have to think back on his methods.

tesral
06-22-2008, 08:38 AM
I know a great high level campaign is possible. I played with a DM very skilled at producing them. That included 2e (maybe Adv, but I think by that point it was 2e) and 3.5. He just had a real knack for epic level storytelling. Whenever I have a game that approaches that point I will have to think back on his methods.

It's a different kind of challenge. You do need to move away from combat as the primary method of conflict resolution and look to other methods of framing and solving the conflict. You have to get people thinking.

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
06-29-2008, 01:47 AM
i've always enjoyed playing high-level campaigns. i haven't run into any snags yet... what problems do you find plauging your attempts?
I dont have a problem with it. Unfortuately, many DM's do. Not unlike the many DM's that dont allow Psionics in their games.

I'll be purchasing the 600 page Hardbound 3.75 edition from Paizo when released. Yep, i will be using it too.

Thoth-Amon

starfalconkd
06-29-2008, 08:45 AM
The alpha version is interesting but definitely needs some tweaking. I'm looking forward to the beta.

Webhead
06-30-2008, 09:37 AM
I'll be purchasing the 600 page Hardbound 3.75 edition from Paizo when released. Yep, i will be using it too.

Thoth-Amon

Wow...I'm having flashbacks to Hero 5th Edition...

tesral
06-30-2008, 11:32 AM
Wow...I'm having flashbacks to Hero 5th Edition...

Watch your toes.

Really check, any D&D core edition set has as many pages, just spread over three books.

Webhead
06-30-2008, 11:36 AM
Watch your toes.

Really check, any D&D core edition set has as many pages, just spread over three books.

Sure...at least one only need fumble with a single book at a time (not considering transport, of course).

I prefer "single book" games anyway...just not 5-pound ones...:D

tesral
06-30-2008, 11:43 AM
Sure...at least one only need fumble with a single book at a time (not considering transport, of course).

I prefer "single book" games anyway...just not 5-pound ones...:D

It isn't the three book fumble that gets me, it's the three dozen book fumble. Yea, fewer books equals fewer problems.

PS For the record the Hero Fifth Edition Revised weights 3.25 pounds. Kitchen scales rock.

PPS D&D 3.5 three core book set is 7.5 pounds.

Webhead
06-30-2008, 01:23 PM
It isn't the three book fumble that gets me, it's the three dozen book fumble. Yea, fewer books equals fewer problems.

I hear ya.


PS For the record the Hero Fifth Edition Revised weights 3.25 pounds. Kitchen scales rock.

Thanks in part to the very light, thin, no-gloss paper stock used. It's actually a blessing in disguise. Imagine how thick it would be and how much it would weigh with more traditional, glossy paper stock...;)


PPS D&D 3.5 three core book set is 7.5 pounds.

Another reason to dodge "supplementitis". 7.5 lbs. of "core game" is about my limit. Remember the days of 128-page, softbound Player's manuals and 96-page GM's guides? :)

tesral
06-30-2008, 02:35 PM
Another reason to dodge "supplementitis". 7.5 lbs. of "core game" is about my limit. Remember the days of 128-page, softbound Player's manuals and 96-page GM's guides? :)

I went from pamplets to hardcovers. 0e D&D to AD&D. I have a few of the Gazetters but otherwise no Red/blue/gold D&D editions.

Webhead
06-30-2008, 03:11 PM
I went from pamplets to hardcovers. 0e D&D to AD&D. I have a few of the Gazetters but otherwise no Red/blue/gold D&D editions.

I have most of the Gazetters. Those were pretty cool.

agoraderek
06-30-2008, 06:32 PM
hmmm, i wonder what my external hard drive weighs...

tesral
06-30-2008, 08:53 PM
hmmm, i wonder what my external hard drive weighs...

Next to nothing and has four gigs of gaming reated stuff on it. However, you kind of need the computer too.

agoraderek
06-30-2008, 09:42 PM
Next to nothing and has four gigs of gaming reated stuff on it. However, you kind of need the computer too.

i have a laptop whose only purpose in life is to open PDF files...

tesral
06-30-2008, 10:43 PM
i have a laptop whose only purpose in life is to open PDF files...

Not even a little Internet on the side? The poor thing.

However it does rather negate the weight advantage, not to mention requiring power.

The best thing about books is they always work, no matter when, no matter where.

agoraderek
06-30-2008, 10:52 PM
Not even a little Internet on the side? The poor thing.

However it does rather negate the weight advantage, not to mention requiring power.

The best thing about books is they always work, no matter when, no matter where.

well, yeah, there's a browser, but its mostly for accessing this place when im at the coffee shop...

true, and im slowly, piece by piece (thank you Ebay, half priced books and FLSG "used bin"...), getting all of the hardcopy i lost back. the pdfs are a nice stopgap, though.

tesral
06-30-2008, 11:39 PM
true, and im slowly, piece by piece (thank you Ebay, half priced books and FLSG "used bin"...), getting all of the hardcopy i lost back. the pdfs are a nice stopgap, though.

Not argueing that. My poor laptop is underused as well. It's one of my better machines, but it only gets used at computer meetings and Friday gaming.

I should take it out and work on the beast.

ryan973
07-01-2008, 07:14 AM
God i have the 5th hero ediition and it intimidated the crap out of me. I dotn think it will bother if it the Pathfinder stuff though as I am more inclined to read through to find what i want. mabie add tabs

Skunkape
07-01-2008, 08:27 AM
Next to nothing and has four gigs of gaming reated stuff on it. However, you kind of need the computer too.

And man are those old desktop monitors heavy!:lol:

tesral
07-01-2008, 10:35 AM
And man are those old desktop monitors heavy!:lol:

Some of the new ones are not exactly light.

I have a former Green Beret pick up my laptop bag and say "What do you have IN here?"

"Everything". Yea, the bloody thing is an office in a bag down to the printer, stapler, scissors, everything.

But back to topic big books don't bother me. I will get the Pathfinder for much the same reason I'm not buying 4e. I support the people that support me.

agoraderek
07-03-2008, 02:03 AM
And man are those old desktop monitors heavy!:lol:

yeah, i have a 25" crt collecting dust in the closet right now, i'll occasionally carry it around the apartment if i cant get to the gym...

Skunkape
07-03-2008, 06:59 AM
This is definately off topic but, I used to work as a support tech, so I've had my share of lifting 21" CRT screens. Even had the company buy me a weight belt to make sure I didn't hurt my back any worst that it already is! Course, not only did I have to move the monitors, I was one of the only two guys in the office who were qualified to repair them!

That's always a fun job because you have to make sure you don't touch certain areas inside the monitor with two hands so that you complete a circuit. Good way to kill yourself really fast! Needless to say, I survived being a support tech!:biggrin:

tesral
07-03-2008, 11:59 AM
That's always a fun job because you have to make sure you don't touch certain areas inside the monitor with two hands so that you complete a circuit. Good way to kill yourself really fast! Needless to say, I survived being a support tech!:biggrin:

What, you're in a lich too?


As to on topic ain't much to say until we see the Pathfinder book. Speaking of which I need to put a list together of PDFs for printing to my wife. She has better gear at work than I do. The Pathfinder beta PDF is in a serif font that is lousy for on screen reading. (At least to my old eyes) And I really would like to read it.

Kilrex
07-03-2008, 06:49 PM
That's always a fun job because you have to make sure you don't touch certain areas inside the monitor with two hands so that you complete a circuit. Good way to kill yourself really fast! Needless to say, I survived being a support tech!:biggrin:

Ya ever get to mess with the old plasma monitors? The ones that had orange letters on the display. Had one of those open and was watching another guy doing something, laughed at him and accidentally touched the power. Knocked me off my stool and the other guy got his turn to laugh.