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View Full Version : The Late Starters Review of 4e



Engar
06-14-2008, 09:36 PM
...posts deleted...

Engar
06-14-2008, 09:38 PM
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Engar
06-14-2008, 09:41 PM
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Engar
06-14-2008, 09:44 PM
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Engar
06-14-2008, 09:58 PM
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Engar
06-14-2008, 10:06 PM
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Engar
06-14-2008, 10:12 PM
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Engar
06-14-2008, 10:21 PM
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Engar
06-14-2008, 10:35 PM
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Engar
06-14-2008, 10:39 PM
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Engar
06-14-2008, 10:40 PM
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Engar
06-14-2008, 10:45 PM
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Engar
06-14-2008, 11:05 PM
Classes...

Okay, enough is enough. I flipped though the rest, closed the book and put it on a shelf. When people convince me to play 4e I might try it, until then I am going to play DnD.

This thread is officially ended...(again? Stop cheering!)

agoraderek
06-15-2008, 12:08 AM
Classes...

Okay, enough is enough. I flipped though the rest, closed the book and put it on a shelf. When people convince me to play 4e I might try it, until then I am going to play DnD.

This thread is officially ended...(again? Stop cheering!)

funny stuff, good job :)

ryan973
06-16-2008, 10:33 AM
whay did all his stuff get deleated. I realize that RPG communities dont want to make enemies of wizards of the coast and all that but were can a gamer go to disagree with the path our favorite hobby has been put on.

Shadow Dweller
06-16-2008, 11:20 AM
whay did all his stuff get deleated. I realize that RPG communities dont want to make enemies of wizards of the coast and all that but were can a gamer go to disagree with the path our favorite hobby has been put on.
Looks like he chose to end his own rant(not saying rant is a bad thing), don't think it was mod/admin ordered from the look of the post. Regardless, I'm inclined to agree with Engar's sentiment from his last, un-edited post:


Classes...

Okay, enough is enough. I flipped though the rest, closed the book and put it on a shelf. When people convince me to play 4e I might try it, until then I am going to play DnD.
4e looks like it was made to apease console gamers and fans of NWN more than PaP gamers. Hopefully some of the new content coming out later this year entices me to give it another look, but untill then, I'll stick with 3.5 and homebrewed rules. :)

ryan973
06-16-2008, 12:43 PM
Agreed. Its not a lost couse the idea is great they just need to make soem big steps back and a few more foward. mabie we will all notice the diffrence in a year or so when 4.5 come out.

Engar
06-16-2008, 12:58 PM
I had gone through page by page (as I first read it) and said what I liked/disliked (and there were few serious criticisms, mostly just "that's nice" or "why do that, oh well, I just won't" kind of stuff. Then I got to the classes and whoa. I thought, none of that stuff up to now matters in the least compared to this... so I just went back and deleted the posts to save everyone's time. Not saying I cannot or will not play it, it is just so different from the past editions that it really stands alone vs. being a new version. Now I do not like it, possibly because I am resisting change or stubborn or overly nastalgic, but I did not say anything nastier than the preceding or use foul language. I just self censored since my earlier ramblings (roll method 2 is badly designed...blah, blah) seemed senseless in light of much much greater issues (classes are completely altered) and I was no longer so open minded for the rest of it either.

Webhead
06-16-2008, 04:28 PM
4e looks like it was made to apease console gamers and fans of NWN more than PaP gamers. Hopefully some of the new content coming out later this year entices me to give it another look, but untill then, I'll stick with 3.5 and homebrewed rules. :)

I respectfully disagree, but I'll admit that I've not read all 3 books in their entirety yet and have not had an opportunity to play it.

I'm an old-school console gamer (by that I mean Atari, Nintendo, Super Nintendo) and always have been, but not as much since the mid-90's. Though I did finally buy a Nintendo Wii a few weeks ago (always loved Nintendo).

I borrowed NWN from a friend and found it terribly dull and uninspiring. I got to 7th or 8th level and I uninstalled it and returned it to said friend. Never bothered with any of the expansions (the Baldur's Gate and Planescape: Torment games were much better).

I had no interest in MMO's until I was dragged into WoW because at least a dozen people I knew at work played it and wanted me to hang out with them in-game. I still probably play WoW less than about 2 hours a week, but it's okay for a little diversion.

4e is growing on me. I was resistant to it at first. Some of the changes are startling at first read.

I have romanticized memories of playing 2e, but that was less about the game system and more about the people I was playing with. I get a generally unpleasant taste in my mouth when I think about 3e. This is due more to the game system than the people I was playing with. Or maybe it's due to how I've witnessed people play with the game system. So, I don't really want to change players, I want to change game systems. That's fine if I want to play non-D&D games. There are plenty of the out there. But many of my players are attached to D&D-esque fantasy and many are attached to the d20-type game conventions.

I guess 4e is kind of a middle ground. It seems to make enough of D&D tolerable to me that I would actually try playing it and (if they can get over their knee-jerk revulsion to change) I'm sure my players would appreciate playing D&D-esque fantasy given the choice.

At my table, there's currently two sides:

1) If we're playing an RPG, we'd prefer it to be d20 and we'd prefer it to be D&D 3.X.

AND

2) If we're playing an RPG, I'd prefer it to be anything but d20 or D&D 3.X.

Sure, I'm outnumbered, but I get to have an opinion too. We're all long-time friends so we want to make sure we're all having fun. Maybe...just maybe, 4e (when I dare to suggest playing it) will have everyone in the group enjoying D&D and not just everyone else.

Sorry... Rambling...

Engar
06-16-2008, 04:37 PM
This is the place for rambling. I rambled so much (lots of posts earlier) I deleted myself out of embarassment. Well, that and I got too closed minded about 4e. Still am, just about running it though. I have to like a game system to storytell. I think that is reasonable. I prefer to like it when I play too, but it has less impact.

Webhead
06-16-2008, 05:52 PM
This is the place for rambling. I rambled so much (lots of posts earlier) I deleted myself out of embarassment. Well, that and I got too closed minded about 4e. Still am, just about running it though. I have to like a game system to storytell. I think that is reasonable. I prefer to like it when I play too, but it has less impact.

I try to keep an open mind and not judge things until I've given them a fair chance.

I agree, there are some games that I will play, but you would not get me to run them. Then there are those (admittedly very few...open mind and all) that I just don't have interest in playing either.

I've been GMing for a better part of my role playing career and I genuinely enjoy the experience when everybody gets into the game. But I have to get something out of it too, especially if I'm going to be spending so much time with the game.

I have fond memories of telling wild stories and having great fun with D&D. That's why a part of me hasn't entirely given up on the franchise as much as my most recent experiences have me wanting to. There is the promise of something fast, wild and fun about 4e which is why I'm taking the game in stride until I can really assess the game's merits and failings. It will have them too, just like every previous edition had them. I guess it just comes down to whether or not it makes D&D feel "fun" again to me. Before I sat down to start reading 4e, D&D was one of the very last RPGs that I wanted to play (and nearly on the list of those that I had no interest in playing at all).

More rambling...:)

Engar
06-16-2008, 06:26 PM
Perhaps it will bring some people back. I just love spells. Why kill spells? I know, I know, they are powers now and listed under the class. This is DnD man! This is wizards and spells and towers and magic! This is finding a scroll as a mage and jumping up and down like a kid at Christmas (until it turns out to be a stupid treasure map and you hand it back to the fighter while the rogue almost knocks you down tryng to see over his shoulder). This is Dungeons and Dragons! I know it is not in the title, but it is no worse than not having any dungeons or not having any dragons! It's like playing Top Secret with no spies, Starwars with no jedi, Gurps with no...well, I don't know I never played Gurps...

Webhead
06-16-2008, 07:27 PM
See, and (at the risk of starting up a cascade of related posts) I don't view spells as being "gone", but just changing how they are gained and used. A Wizard still has his spellbook, but now "spell memorization" is really just transmutted into your limit of spells per encounter/day.

Not sure about what 4e will mean in terms of spell scrolls (haven't read Magic Items yet), but I don't see why they wouldn't exists. Certainly a DM could rule that scrolls are just an extra one-shot spell like always.

Anyway, I don't mean to travel too far down that path.

Some folks feel that 4e has lost a bit of the "spirit of D&D". I think it's certainly a matter of perspective. I still see the "D&D" in 4e. A different flavor of D&D perhaps, but still recognizable as the fantasy game world that I've been playing in since discovering the hobby. Not everybody likes every flavor though, and that's okay too.

Engar
06-16-2008, 07:38 PM
But the excitement over that scroll (if it exists) is gone. It adds nothing to your spellbook, which in my campaigns have always been a wizards prize.

I once had a renowned rogue steal the spellbook of the party wizard and replace it with a similar looking book of childrens fables. Talk about everything else can wait. Sorry princess, save yourself... Dragon ate your brother, yeah, we all have problems... And all the rest of you better have my back on this one unless you plan on walking from now on (hadn't walked since teleport)...

Of course in 4e that would never fly because it might hurt the mage's feelings.

Webhead
06-16-2008, 07:58 PM
I wouldn't say that scroll excitement is entirely gone. By the book, it doesn't say that you can add scrolls to your spellbook, but considering you limit to spellcasting, having a scroll or two still means you've got spells up your sleeve that you couldn't cast otherwise.

And "spellbook theft" is still a viable (and painful) option against Wizards in 4e. All of the Wizard's Daily Spells, Utility Spells and Rituals are all contained in the spellbook and can't be "prepared" without it. The Wizard isn't completely screwed as he can still call upon his At Will and Encounter Spells (which is nice), but losing his spellbook will rob him of his most powerful and most versatile spells. Definately want to keep tabs on it.

Aidan
06-16-2008, 07:59 PM
But the excitement over that scroll (if it exists) is gone. It adds nothing to your spellbook, which in my campaigns have always been a wizards prize.



You didn't read far enough. There are things called rituals - basically those utility spells that nobody bothered to memorize -- Tensor's Floating Disc, Magic Mouth, Raise Dead -- some oldies but goodies. They take time to cast and use material components. They can also be inscribed on a scroll, or written in a book. Some of the more powerful and long lasting spells are now rituals.

Valdar
06-16-2008, 08:06 PM
You didn't read far enough. There are things called rituals - basically those utility spells that nobody bothered to memorize -- Tensor's Floating Disc, Magic Mouth, Raise Dead -- some oldies but goodies. They take time to cast and use material components. They can also be inscribed on a scroll, or written in a book. Some of the more powerful and long lasting spells are now rituals.

Yes. Basically, the spells that you wouldn't have wasted a memorization slot on anyway. Magic Mouth is actually going to get _more_ play now that you don't have to choose it over Magic Missile.

Engar
06-16-2008, 08:11 PM
First, you got me to open the book again.
Second, you are correct about rituals and they do make me happy. Still defensive, but jovial too.

Webhead
06-16-2008, 08:25 PM
First, you got me to open the book again.
Second, you are correct about rituals and they do make me happy. Still defensive, but jovial too.

:D...

Engar
06-16-2008, 08:42 PM
Just out of curiosity. I am a freshly relocated teacher with most of the summer off aside from one road trip and my TX ACP (alt cert prog). Hence I have tons of free time right now to be here posting all day, all night, or until my wife beats me just out of fairness. I also have no gaming group atm (sadly, they stayed in IL with their wives and children *traitors!*). So my point being, and I focus this on all you DFW gamers here, and there are quite a few thank God, why are you here bs'g with me instead of out there planning an adventure to invite me into? I mean I can run the thing if I have to, but heck, this is your town right? I am sort of like the guest and all.

agoraderek
06-16-2008, 08:46 PM
Just out of curiosity. I am a freshly relocated teacher with most of the summer off aside from one road trip and my TX ACP (alt cert prog). Hence I have tons of free time right now to be here posting all day, all night, or until my wife beats me just out of fairness. I also have no gaming group atm (sadly, they stayed in IL with their wives and children *traitors!*). So my point being, and I focus this on all you DFW gamers here, and there are quite a few thank God, why are you here bs'g with me instead of out there planning an adventure to invite me into? I mean I can run the thing if I have to, but heck, this is your town right? I am sort of like the guest and all.

hey, we need teachers in HOUSTON too!!!!!!!

MooseAlmighty
06-17-2008, 08:37 AM
First, you got me to open the book again.
Second, you are correct about rituals and they do make me happy. Still defensive, but jovial too.

I am really interested in Rituals. Reading through the PHB and got to this section last night. With the appropriate skills and the Ritual Caster Feat, anyone can do this correct? I am loving that. I've had groups without primary casters where we always had to rely on Use Magic Device in 3.x So Rituals being accessible sounds very appealing. I also like that the group can participate to aid the outcome. Image of the whole party taking part (you two stand here and here with candles, you sprinkle this powder, etc)

Webhead
06-17-2008, 09:20 AM
I am really interested in Rituals. Reading through the PHB and got to this section last night. With the appropriate skills and the Ritual Caster Feat, anyone can do this correct? I am loving that. I've had groups without primary casters where we always had to rely on Use Magic Device in 3.x So Rituals being accessible sounds very appealing. I also like that the group can participate to aid the outcome. Image of the whole party taking part (you two stand here and here with candles, you sprinkle this powder, etc)

Agreed. I very much like where they are going with Rituals. If I had to pick a "favorite new feature" of 4e thus far in my reading, Rituals would probably be it.

Valdar
06-17-2008, 10:46 AM
Also note the required skills, which will probably require the Skill Training feat to get.

So, if you wanted a Rogue who could raise the dead, you'd need:

Skill Training feat: Arcana or Religion (required by Ritual Casting)
Feat: Ritual Casting
Skill Training feat: Heal (required by Raise Dead)

So, three extra feats total for the Rogue, while the Cleric (and only the Cleric) would need none.

Engar
06-17-2008, 12:20 PM
This I like a lot. I still do not agree with "powers". I just don't like them and it leaves me feeling like the character has to fit their box. The rituals though. Me likee! This they should have done with all those spells no one but the crazy guy used because of the opportunity cost.

As a bonus the term "rituals" and the use in game is the sort of thing that makes ignorant deacon's wives get right on the phone to organize a church meeting. Even as an old guy in rpg years, and despite that I might personally know the deacon and his wife now and be the one having to explain it to them, I still take great pleasure in that.

InfoStorm
06-17-2008, 12:35 PM
If you collect 3rd party material (publishers who aren't WotC), rules for ritual casting of spells has been out there for a few years now. I'm not home so I can't quote the book title now, but they are there.

Shadow Dweller
06-17-2008, 12:57 PM
If I'm not mistaken it's in the Relics & Rituls book. Not a bad read that one. :)

Engar
06-17-2008, 01:33 PM
I have my fair share of books, but I do avoid 3rd party and I generally regret the others too. I do like Unearthed Arcana for good alternate ideas, but I do not and would not tell players all or even most of what I might reference, there is enough pressure to allow everything already.

Characters will see it in the game and can pursue it there. For example, (all my examples are a little old since its been a year now), my last setting had a dragon cult which used a form of the spell point variant: vitalizing from UA. The players knew as they battled these casters that they became physically weakened by casting and could sacrifice their health for power. Some even died casting or attempting to cast a last big damage spell. If I had introduced it as a playable class to start it would have tossing out the baby with the bath water. They would have known all about my exciting surprise before they ever encountered it. Bad enough they all memorize the MM and can tell me what page to look on for a magic item.

On a similar note I introduced taint in that same campaign with no notice or warning. Players (not characters) went apeshit. What do mean I feel dirty or infected? Why do I have two points lower Con and Wisdom!?! This is bs. It better not be permanent. That guy who sent us here is dead. I am going to tear his heart from his ...er, my paladin will confront him about his information.

I made up that last part about the pally (no pally), but players HATE (and by hate I mean secretly and never admittedly love) unkown stuff. Especially if it cripples stats (even stats they hardly use). The fact that they hate it tells me they care about the character, the fact that they want to act to do something about it tells me I own them, hook, line and sinker. The fact that they are actually a little worried I might never allow them to reverse it tells me I am walking the line pretty close, which is okay as long as it adds excitement and fun vs. makes them give up (players differ here and I have lost a few when not careful).

Shadow Dweller
06-17-2008, 01:40 PM
He he he, just wait till Saturday /evilgrin

Webhead
06-17-2008, 02:19 PM
I agree. Some things should remain mysterious, surprising and unknown to the players (and their characters). It can be a lot cooler to see your players' faces twist with shock as they mutter "what the heck was that?" instead of "oh, he just cast a [blah] spell and used the [blah] and [blah] feats".