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Annshadow
06-06-2008, 07:26 AM
Hope springs eternal.

I told our DM I want to play a fighter instead of the party wizard. The wizard will be someone else's headache.

But our starting wealth in equipment is 2 +1 Items and 2k to outfit a level 10 character.

That in itself is fine. Heck we could wash up necked for all I care.

My question is in the monk bonus feats Improved Disarm and Improved trip.


Bonus Feat: At 1st level, a monk may select either Improved Grapple (http://www.iwozhere.com/SRD/feats/IMPROVED_GRAPPLE.html) or Stunning Fist (http://www.iwozhere.com/SRD/feats/STUNNING_FIST.html) as a bonus feat. At 2nd level, she may select either Combat Reflexes (http://www.iwozhere.com/SRD/feats/COMBAT_REFLEXES.html) or Deflect Arrows (http://www.iwozhere.com/SRD/feats/DEFLECT_ARROWS.html) as a bonus feat. At 6th level, she may select either Improved Disarm (http://www.iwozhere.com/SRD/feats/IMPROVED_DISARM.html) or Improved Trip (http://www.iwozhere.com/SRD/feats/IMPROVED_TRIP.html) as a bonus feat. A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.

I took Both Improved Trip as a bonus feat AND Imporved Disarm as my Level 6 feat.

The DM said no. I did not have the prereq for the second selection and could not take it.

My response is that the last sentence stands on its own. That I do not need the prereqs to select the feat now or ever.

I can see her point but I do not think it is correct.

Any advice or input on this? Has this been ruled on or discussed by WoTC?

Kilrex
06-06-2008, 07:41 AM
The need for not needing the prereq is only when you choose it as the bonus feat, not a regular feat. One of the Dragon magazine Ask the Sage articles covers it.

Shadow Dweller
06-06-2008, 07:56 AM
Kilrex is right on this. The line "A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them" only applies when you select the feat as the monk bonus.

If you don't mind me asking what is the build your going for and what your stats are like. I have an almost unnatural love for this class and, depending on the books available, can put togeather a rather effect build. :)

Annshadow
06-06-2008, 09:28 AM
Would you happen to have more information?
that is for the post above the one above this

I have never played a Monk... so any advice will be welcome :)
We only get PHB I and II and complete Warrior, complete Arcane, and Complete Adventurer.


here is what I wrote to the DM whne she asked for my character info.

Cleric1/Monk9
My monk feats are as follows:

Feats:
Improved Grapple: L1 Bonus feat: Monk
combat Reflexes: L-2 Bonus Feat: Monk
Defensive Throw: L-3 Feat
Improved Trip: L-6 Bonus Feat: Monk
Imporved Disarm L-6 Feat
Spring Attack L-9 Feat

Monk Class Feats:
Improved Unarmed Strike: Monk Unarmed Strike not restricted to hands. Any part of its body can strike a blow.
Flurry of Blows
Evasion
Improved Evasion
Slow Fall 40'
Fast Movement: 30'
Immune to disease
Still Mind
Ki Strike
Wholeness of Body

Cleric Feats
Dodge: L-1 Human bonus Feat
Mobility: L-1 Feat

Cleric Class Feats
All Armor
All Shields except Tower Shields
All Simple Weapons
Weapon focus: Unarmed Strike
Spontaneous casting
Turn Undead

Domain Granted Ability/Feat
Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike

Defensive Throw is From Complete Warrior which we are using. It allows a Trip Counter Attack whenever a melee attack misses.

Dodge: +1 dodge bonus v. One named opponent
Mobility: +4 dodge bonus v. AoO
Spring Attack: Allows movement before and After an attack


IMPROVED DISARM [GENERAL]
Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to disarm an opponent, nor does the opponent have a chance to disarm you. You also gain a +4 bonus on the opposed attack roll you make to disarm your opponent.
Normal: See the normal disarm rules.
*******************************************
IMPROVED TRIP [GENERAL]
Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent while you are unarmed. You also gain a +4 bonus on your Strength (http://www.iwozhere.com/SRD/basics/STRENGTH.html) check to trip your opponent.
If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadnít used your attack for the trip attempt.
Normal: Without this feat, you provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent while you are unarmed.
********************************************
IMPROVED GRAPPLE [GENERAL]
Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you make a touch attack to start a grapple. You also gain a +4 bonus on all grapple checks, regardless of whether you started the grapple.
Normal: Without this feat, you provoke an attack of opportunity when you make a touch attack to start a grapple.

Combat Reflexes [General]

You may make a number of additional attacks of opportunity equal to your Dexterity bonus.

With this feat, you may also make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.
Normal

A character without this feat can make only one attack of opportunity per round and canít make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.

The theory of my character.

Monks are specialist in disarming and tripping. They get the feats for free and without prereq. It is the essence of monkness or Monkitude.

I have max ranks in Tumble and Move silently with a smattering in balance and hide.

I will use the Domain Strength Spell to Enlarge person on myself. this will greatly penalize me for to hit and AC but has benefits to offset this.

I will use a whip to give myself 25' reach

I will use reach to disarm or trip

I will use spring attack to get in range for these attacks

My reading on Trip is that If I make a trip attack on an AoO then I get to make an attack. based on the reading of the Feat: ... as if you hadnít used your attack for the trip attempt

I will cast shield on my self to boost my AC
I hope the wizard casts Mage Armor on me to boost my AC

In close quarters fighting I will use trip at 10' range if enlarged otherwise I will use it as normal. I will AoO the tripped enemy and disarm if it is armed while it is getting up.

Since a Monk has no off hand weapon and can attack with his hands full, I can always attack, I will use the whip One handed to be able to disarm with my other hand.

I will tumble to get in range.

My Reading of Defensive throw is that I can use it if an AoO misses. Just like a person can get an AoO on an AoO nested until no more AoOs can be had.

I intend to disarm anyone with a weapon while they are getting up from being tripped.

My trip ability is: Unarmed 10 +4 + (if enlarged) 4 = d20+14 or 18.
My disarm is: 10+4+(if enlarged)4+2(if whip) = +20

Enlarged my damage is 2d8+4 unarmed or by weapon.

If this is unacceptable please feel free to give me a pre-generated character from the module that you will accept or any other character of any class whose spells and/or abilities you approve.

Shadow Dweller
06-06-2008, 11:01 AM
Ok, the way that read was a little hard for me to follow...if you don't mind, here is a re-org of what you typed:

Cleric1/Monk9
My monk feats are as follows:

Feats:
Level 1 Dodge; Human bonus Feat, Mobility, Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike; Domain Granted Ability
Level 2 Improved Grapple; Bonus feat: Monk
Level 3 combat Reflexes; Bonus Feat: Monk, Defensive Throw
Level 6 Imporved Disarm
Level 7 Improved Trip; Bonus Feat: Monk
Level 9 Spring Attack


Cleric Class Features at level 1
All Armor
All Shields except Tower Shields
All Simple Weapons
Spontaneous casting
Turn Undead
<<I would list which domain your taking to clear up confusion.>>

Monk Class Features
Level 1 Bonus feat, flurry of blows, unarmed strike*
Level 2 Bonus feat, evasion
Level 3 Still mind
Level 4 Ki strike (magic), slow fall 20 ft.
Level 5 Purity of body
Level 6 Bonus feat, slow fall 30 ft.
Level 7 Wholeness of body(Immunity to non-magical disease)
Level 8 Slow fall 40 ft.
Level 9 Improved evasion

* At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monkís attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.

Usually a monkís unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but she can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on her attack roll. She has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.

A monkís unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

A monk also deals more damage with her unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown on Table: The Monk. The unarmed damage on Table: The Monk is for Medium monks. A Small monk deals less damage than the amount given there with her unarmed attacks, while a Large monk deals more damage; see Table: Small or Large Monk Unarmed Damage.

A few things to note...


Improved Disarm [General]

Prerequisites

Int 13, Combat Expertise (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#combatExpertise).
Benefit

You do not provoke an attack of opportunity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/attacksOfOpportunity.htm) when you attempt to disarm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#disarm) an opponent, nor does the opponent have a chance to disarm you. You also gain a +4 bonus on the opposed attack roll (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#attackRoll) you make to disarm your opponent.
Normal

See the normal disarm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#disarm) rules.
Special

A fighter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/fighter.htm) may select Improved Disarm as one of his fighter bonus feats.
A monk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm) may select Improved Disarm as a bonus feat at 6th level, even if she does not meet the prerequisites.


The only way you can take this is as the monk bonus feat, or burn an earlier feat to get Combat Expertise, which would mess up the progression to Spring Attack as it would have to replace an earlier feat of either Dodge or Mobility

The second thing in this build that's an issue is that Whip is an Exotic weapon and requires a feat unless you want to take the non-profency penalities, further retarding your abiltity to take Spring Attack, Mobility or Improved Disarm

EDIT: Also, ability scores?

Annshadow
06-06-2008, 11:58 AM
Had to go out and do some work ... ah well ... it's what i get paid for.

Stats are
str 16
Dex 16
con 14
Wis 14
Int 8
Ch 8


Start with a 28 point buy +1 at 4 in Str +1 at 8 in Dex

Let me say my reason for playing a monk is that it seems cooler than a Fighter but I can play a fighter too.

I think the trip ability would be powerful.

We have a pure cleric
Wizard
and a wiz1/fighter 8 (Great axe and Animated tower shield)

My plan with the monk is to use spring attack and get flanking with the fighter and then get out of harms way while the guy is one the ground and the Fighter gets a +4 for a prone opponent.

Shadow Dweller
06-06-2008, 12:22 PM
That sounds like a reasonable strat. I would just not worry too much about Improved Disarm. It's nice, but with the opponent on the ground you've as good as disarmed them for a while. Also with Grapple you are "effectively" disarming them since you can attack unhindered(in this build) while they take a penality(I think -4) on any attacks. It also looks, from your post that you don't have a rogue/trap-monkey. I would be prepaired to spend a lot of time in any dungeon you go in about 10-15 feet ahead of the party "searching" for traps. And by searching I mean triggering them and hoping you reflex save beats the DC.

Annshadow
06-06-2008, 12:53 PM
I am actually only giving up +4 by not having the Improved disarm.

Since A monk's unarmed strike is considered Armed. They do not get an attack of Opportunity and if I trip them first I get a +4 to hit which washes the missing +4.

Of course there is the weapon size difference.

do you think it would be better taking a level of fighter instead of cleric?

Fighter would give an extra feat (Acrobatic Strike comes to mind)

Shadow Dweller
06-06-2008, 01:40 PM
Well, with just the 1 level of fighter you loose the domain bonus feat for weapon focus and would have to replace that with the fighter bonus feat, assuming it was important to you. Other wise yes, it does give you some flexibility in your feat choice. You could always take a second level of fighter, but doing that you give up Improved Evasion(usefull if your the trap "finder") and your flury will be at the -1 penality still. Just stick with Cleric(little extra healing helps).

My advice is that after lvl 11 start taking cleric levels again then see if the DM would allow Sacred Fist PrC from Complete Divine. Some of your monk bonuses stack, plus you continue spell caster progression after the first PrC level. I'd clear this first as it sounds like your DM(if the same one from earlier posts) can be a bit of a stick in the mud. If he doesn't allow that look at the Tatooed Monk PrC from Complete Warrior, it's anothee good choice and gives you extra options in combat.

Kilrex
06-06-2008, 04:40 PM
Alas, I don't know the exact issue in which Ask the Sage covers the bonus feat question.

Why not keep the character pure Monk? 10th lvl is nice. Fighter just gives you an extra Feat, weapons and armor you shouldn't need. The level of cleric gives you the Enlarge (drawback of once per day only and Concentration check to use in combat), limited spells, and weapons and armor you shouldn't need.

As for your starting scores, leave them as is, but spend both ability increases due to level in Dex. High Dex allows for more AoO and AC. If I read you correctly, then your Dex and Str would both be at 15. Then at lvl 12 pump Dex again. The Dex is more important for the AC and the skills.

As for feats, I would not select Mobility, unless you really want Spring Attack. Tumble DC 15 negates the first AoO and +2 to that DC for each other creature you would try to tumble by. Plus if you trip them, you wouldn't want to leave in case they try to stand provoking a AoO and you are already in place for some Grappling.

As for feats. For 1 and 6, I listed the Mobility and Spring Attack you liked or the alternates I would take to emphasize Trip and Grapple. You could swap the Hold the Line and Deft Opportunist depending on how your DM runs combat.

Lvl 1: Earth's Embrace (Complete Warrior, need Str 15, adds 1d12 damage while grappling)
or: Mobility
Lvl 3: Hold the Line (Complete Warrior, AoO against charging enemy, to Trip them before they can hit you)
Lvl 6: Defensive Throw
or Spring Attack
Lvl 9: Deft Opportunist (Complete Adventurer, +4 AoO)
Human: Dodge
Monk 1: Improved Grapple
Monk 2: Combat Reflexes
Monk 6: Improved Trip

How I would use this char:
Tumble into a flank position. Trip them using the +2 flank bonus, giving them the prone condition (-4 att, -4 AC vs melee, and gives you a AoO if they try to stand). Next begin the Grapple (dropping them prone make the touch attack to begin much easier). The following round the hurt begins, your unarmed damage (1d10+2 at 10th) plus Earth's Embrace (1d12).

Annshadow
06-07-2008, 11:35 AM
That actually sounds pretty good.

And all the feats are in books we can use. Most of the things we fight are larger than Medium.

********

I concede the point about the need for the Pre-reqs. That is why I put the question out to you guys; I can be wrong some times (my wife would say that "on rare occasions I'm actually right") and it seemed to me that the wording of the last line stood on its own.

But I believe you when you say there was an ask the sage on it.

****************

As much fun as this sounds, I have been thinking it would save a lot of trouble in the long run to just go "Sword-and-Board" Fighter.

We get two +1 items and 2kgold to outfit our 10th level characters
Dwarf Fighter 10

I chose +1 Adamantine Full Plate (the other options are from excluded Books)

+1 Adamantine Long Sword (does not give any extra over regular adamantine sword but giving up a magic item slot should cover the extra value of the sword)

My feats are the standard npc fighter feats
In order of group:

Weapon Focus Longsword
Weapon Specialization Longsword
Greater Weapon Focus Longsword
(Greater Weapon Specialization Next)

Shield Specialization: Large Shields

Power Attack
Cleave
Great Cleave

Improved Critical Longsword
Power Critical Longsword

Close Quarter Fighting (could not take anything else that would fit due to restrictions in the Pre-reqs)

I chose Longswords because were I to chose Dwarved Urgosh or Dwarven Great Axe they could "get destroyed" and what are the chances of finding another one. With longswords they are the most common weapon in the universe.

With a Longsword at level 10 im +17/+12 Crit 17-20 and +4 to confirm crit so to confirm a crit im +21/+16

This way there are no gray areas. I walk up and swing till I fall dead or the critter falls dead.

Shadow Dweller
06-07-2008, 01:20 PM
Actually the Adamantine doesn't give the damage bonus, but the +1 does, so your good in choosing that. And if someone is able to get the adamantine weapon out of your hand, AND sunder it...Run, just Run.

Aside from that you should take a look at the feats Sheild Ward(especailly since you took Sheild Mastery), Melee Weapon Mastery: Slashing(which leads to Slashing Fury which gives you an extra attack for free), and of course Improved Initiave. Not that Close Quarter's Fighting is bad, but some of the others might be more advantageous. :)

Annshadow
06-07-2008, 06:35 PM
I took Close quarters because it was the only one available for the level.

The other feats I did not meet the Pre-reqs for until 10th level and I need a feat ... but you're right Shield Ward and Weapon Mastery are ones to look at.

Shadow Dweller
06-07-2008, 08:01 PM
Feat Progression without Close Quarter's Fighting. Assuming your stats are the same as earlier:
1ST Power Attack, Weapon Focus: Longsword
2ND Cleave
3RD Sheild Specalization: Longsword
4TH Great Cleave, Str Increase
6TH Weapon Specalization: Longsword(Assumed taken here), Power Critical: Longsword
8TH Greater Weapon Focus: Longsword, Dex Increase
9TH Improved Critical: Longsword
10TH Close Quarters Fighting or Sheild Ward or Improved Initiave or Melee Weapon Master: Slashing

Now, I understand that Close Quarters Fighting can be usefull, but it's a situational feat that unless the DM has a fetish for Grappling is going to be a wasted feat, where all 3 other feats able to be taken at level 10 are usefull in a lot of other, more common, situations. All the feats listed can be taken at the levels noted, just built the character up as I was typing this out to be sure. :)

I'm sure you won't see this till after your gaming starts, but if your DM let's you change the feats around a bit, this would be a bit more "optimal" without being anywhere near over the top. :)

Annshadow
06-08-2008, 08:23 AM
Oh yeah.

I remember now. The dungeon we are in EVERYTHING grapples you. T-Rexs back oozes almost half the things swallow you whole.

Yeah ... we are always making grapple checks.

I did not have the book so I did not know what Melee weapon master really did.

I would consider it over the grapple thing

Shadow Dweller
06-08-2008, 10:56 AM
Well, then the graple thing was probably best then. :)

As to Melee Weapon Matery it gives a +2 to both attack & damage rolls with the chosen type, in this case, slashing. The next part in the tree, Slashing Fury gives you an extra attack with Slashing weapons at your highest attack bonus.

nijineko
06-08-2008, 03:57 PM
about the bonus feat questions, savage species also addressed that issue. for feats granted through the regular progression of character advancement, one must meet the prerequisites. for feats granted through race and for 'bonus feats', the prereqs don't need to be met. class granted 'bonus feats' typically have some limitation on what you can select. monk is a good example for that. so is fighter.

speaking of grappling. the grappling rules as is are seriously weighted to things that are big and strong. things that aren't lose out on grapple checks. in a very bad way. there is a handy feat in complete warrior called 'close quarters combat' (i think) that allows you a free AoO against any grapple attempt-even if the monsters abilities or feats normally prevents AoO's-and if you hit, you get to add your damage to your check to resist the grapple. handy if you have a good attack bonus.

tesral
06-11-2008, 08:26 AM
Speaking of grappling. the grappling rules as is are seriously weighted to things that are big and strong.

Well ... yes. Things that are big and strong are going to be better at grabbing you and holding on to you, no?

fmitchell
06-11-2008, 01:32 PM
Well ... yes. Things that are big and strong are going to be better at grabbing you and holding on to you, no?

Although I've always thought that things that are smaller than you might be as good or better at tripping you.

In a Midnight campaign, I had an elfling defender (roughly halfling/elf hybrid monk), and I was continually annoyed that my Improved Trip couldn't actually trip anyone.

nijineko
06-14-2008, 04:30 PM
Well ... yes. Things that are big and strong are going to be better at grabbing you and holding on to you, no?

i don't know how many small and helpless things you've grabbed onto, but the unpleasant sensation of wiggling and the occasional bite certainly made me let go. so i can't necessarily agree. just because one in theory should be able to hold on to you for being big and strong doesn't translate to actuality for me.

and no, grabbing shouldn't get an advantage for being a lot bigger than the target. holding, sure. however, let me add a caveat. for me to grab a mouse, rat, small cat or dog or rodent-something similar, i don't get a bonus. especially if i don't want to get bit or scratched. most corporeal mortal entities don't. grabbing my little brother, yes. so it's relaitive. in d&d terms, within a size catagory or two, sure easier if you are bigger. but if they are lots smaller, they can react faster to a degree and dodge, and are harder to grab in general. dex should count for something in the grapple rules, more than it does.

of course, my reaction to trying to hold onto a wiggling fighting biting and clawing thing might be a humano-centric thing. giants, for example, might be different.

tesral
06-15-2008, 01:13 AM
i don't know how many small and helpless things you've grabbed onto, but the unpleasant sensation of wiggling and the occasional bite certainly made me let go. so i can't necessarily agree. just because one in theory should be able to hold on to you for being big and strong doesn't translate to actuality for me.

That comes down to how willing you are to hang on. If I want to eat the small wiggling thing, I am going to hang on no matter how much it wiggles. You are unwilling to hurt that which you hold. I've held small struggling animals as well. Also unwilling to hurt them. But I could just as easily tighten my grip to the point of injury if I was willing to do so. It's the difference between capacity and willingness.

I've been bitten by small animals I have been holding. When it was in the animal's best interest that I hold on, I have.



and no, grabbing shouldn't get an advantage for being a lot bigger than the target. holding, sure.

That is handled in the AC department. Small things have an AC bonus. You grabing a mouse, hard, holding a mouse, depends if you're willing to kill it. But once you have the mouse in hand, it doesn't get away unless you frankly let it.