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Annshadow
05-27-2008, 03:38 PM
In our game, we killed a T-Rex.

I wanted to cut the head off for a trophy (shrink item blah blah blah)

DM said 5 min (50 rounds)

I said "fine"

That got me thinking about how would you do it via the rules.

I figure the hide is about 2 inches thick each side 4 inch hardness 2 hp 20
flesh 5 foot hardness 1 x 60 = 60 Hp

Bone .. could not find bone so I figure the spinal cord is stone hardness 8 hp 15/inch figure it is hollow so 3 inches for 45 Hp

I was using a Great Axe and figured on the Coup de Grace rules for crit hits

I figure 7 to 10 rounds at 1d12 (ave 6)

But when I talked about this later the DM said Coup de Grace is only for living things because .... blah blah blah.

What does one use to figure out how much time it takes to chop a tree or a T-Rex head??

agoraderek
05-27-2008, 07:39 PM
i dont know about chopping the head off a t-rex, as i dont have one handy, but if i wanted to know how long it took to chop down a tree, i'd grab an axe and head out into the woods...

tesral
05-28-2008, 12:49 AM
One can easily argue that yo uarte not in combat with a dead critter.

But then again, it isn't really an argument with a point. If the DM says five minutes, no one is trying to kill you while you do it. Play the game, don't worry over the little things.

starfalconkd
05-28-2008, 06:15 AM
Truthfully it's one of those things you could sit there and figure out the hardness and hp and rounds of damage. Or you could just take the time the DM says. Simple. Five minutes sounds reasonable if you are being careful about it and don't want to damage your trophy.

Skunkape
05-28-2008, 06:42 AM
You could always try and look up how long it takes to cut off the head of a cow in a slaughter house. Granted, they're not trying to be careful and they have powered tools to do it, but that would give you an idea if you really want to get that precise with the time.

Personally, I'd go with what most everyone else says, go with what the GM said as far as time was concerned. No one is trying to kill you and you're not trying to complete some mission so the 5 minutes of game time you lost really isn't that big of a deal.

Annshadow
05-28-2008, 11:40 AM
That is what I did.

However, the DM likes to Railroad us and says stuff like "ok you can do it but the rest of the party is leaving and you will get lost if you do not follow ... "

I know. Quit if I don't like it; but it is the only game in town.


She will obey the rules if you can find one that points to such a thing which is why I asked.

You all seem to know a lot and I was hoping for some help instead of the obvious which I stated I did in fact do.

However the rest of the story was that after the T-Rex fight the little fellers we rescuted dragged 3 or 4 of their companions out of a tar pit and burried them in less time that it took me to chop of the head.

So, they left; I stayed and took the head. I got lost and teleported home. they got into a fight and needed me and blamed me for the day delay.

I know. The DM is always right. Just sometimes I don't want to ride the rails for no reason.


So, I ask again. Does anyone know any rule for this sort of thing.

Thanks in advance for your constructive comments:

Kilrex
05-28-2008, 04:01 PM
The internet has everything on it. Surely somewhere a movie can be found of an elephant being decapitated that can be used as a baseline to figure out the timing required for a T-Rex.

tesral
05-28-2008, 04:45 PM
That is what I did.

However, the DM likes to Railroad us and says stuff like "ok you can do it but the rest of the party is leaving and you will get lost if you do not follow ... "

That is an issue to take up with the rest of your group. the time to cut a head off is secondary. The real problem is the railroad ride. Deal with the real problem or you will be chashing this kind of thing constatly.

Annshadow
05-28-2008, 06:45 PM
That is an issue to take up with the rest of your group. the time to cut a head off is secondary. The real problem is the railroad ride. Deal with the real problem or you will be chashing this kind of thing constatly.

Good advice

Prior to that we had a disagreement about whether a wizard with the Fabricate spell and +14 in Craft Carpentry should be able to build a watch tower with a near by forest for wood.

And then later with a +15 in craft shipbuilding saying that said wizard could take only 5 days off the 3 weeks the module says it takes to repair the ship.

after the entire group got into it for about 1/2 hour the DM said... the module makes it important to not be able to do all this stuff so should I just throw out the entire module???

I guess I'm just venting ... I'm the one with the Craft skills and now I know I'll never be able to build my ships or my estate on this island we find ourselves on and it just makes me sad.

So it seems that we HAVE to do only what the module says...

I emailed the group (cuz it was no point arguing further) if we get the defense the module is forcing us to do out of the way in a week instead of 5 weeks that will give us time to brainstorm... maybe ambush the pirates instead of just waiting to be attacked.

I'm depressed about it because I know none of our ideas will be done because we have to do what the Module says and fight the way the module says the fight will go and blah blah blah ....

That is why I took the stupid head and said "well ... if everyone wants to go I'll see ya later." After all, I belong to an affiliation of big game hunters.

tesral
05-28-2008, 07:53 PM
I'm depressed about it because I know none of our ideas will be done because we have to do what the Module says and fight the way the module says the fight will go and blah blah blah ....

Then you need to deal with the DM. I would say you have a problem. And simply venting isn't enough. Confront it, if you are going to be limited to "what the module says", tell him to write fiction and leave the DMing to someone that is creative.

cplmac
05-28-2008, 08:54 PM
In our game, we killed a T-Rex.

I wanted to cut the head off for a trophy (shrink item blah blah blah)

DM said 5 min (50 rounds)

I said "fine"

That got me thinking about how would you do it via the rules.

I figure the hide is about 2 inches thick each side 4 inch hardness 2 hp 20
flesh 5 foot hardness 1 x 60 = 60 Hp

Bone .. could not find bone so I figure the spinal cord is stone hardness 8 hp 15/inch figure it is hollow so 3 inches for 45 Hp

I was using a Great Axe and figured on the Coup de Grace rules for crit hits

I figure 7 to 10 rounds at 1d12 (ave 6)

But when I talked about this later the DM said Coup de Grace is only for living things because .... blah blah blah.

What does one use to figure out how much time it takes to chop a tree or a T-Rex head??


i dont know about chopping the head off a t-rex, as i dont have one handy, but if i wanted to know how long it took to chop down a tree, i'd grab an axe and head out into the woods...


Depends on how sharp the axe is and who is swinging it.

starfalconkd
05-28-2008, 09:12 PM
the module makes it important to not be able to do all this stuff so should I just throw out the entire module???

That's an awful thing for a DM to say. If she can't be bothered to do the work required then she should not be the DM. Part of the job is adapting to when your players do the unexpected. Next time tell her, yes, throw out the module.


I'm depressed about it because I know none of our ideas will be done because we have to do what the Module says and fight the way the module says the fight will go and blah blah blah ....

Run your own game. It's hard work but if you feel you could do better you should. Or get together with the other players and voice your problems as a group.

boulet
05-28-2008, 09:47 PM
You have to express how frustrating and narrow minded his way of running the game is. If this feeling is shared by the other players then I doubt he would remain deaf to your criticism. It might be done in a more diplomatic way than telling him that he isn't good enough to run a game. I have the impression that the guy is very insecure about his GM skill, and it may explain why he's hiding behind "the module say". Maybe he's a beginner and need to be reassured. Remind him that it isn't him against you guys.

Antagonizing him could be a gamble, especially if he's the leader of the group of players or if you don't feel like stepping up and trying the GM role. My advice for diplomacy comes from you mentioning that it's your only group of players available. Personally, I'd rather leave his campaign... no time for mediocre RPG :)

Annshadow
05-30-2008, 05:21 PM
We shall see.

I plan to take your advice and adjust it to the DM whom I have known since she and her husband were 16 and are now 40.

We were planning to stop the adventure and Play 4th edition. I was planning to just bide my time, but one of the players wants to continue to level 20 and I simply will not. The adventure as written is one big train ride.

sigh ...

tesral
05-31-2008, 12:42 AM
We shall see.

I plan to take your advice and adjust it to the DM whom I have known since she and her husband were 16 and are now 40.

We were planning to stop the adventure and Play 4th edition. I was planning to just bide my time, but one of the players wants to continue to level 20 and I simply will not. The adventure as written is one big train ride.

sigh ...

Get her a book on trains. Since you have teleport do as you have suggested and opt out. See if anyone else wishes to opt out as well. You have a month before the pirates arrive? They find a wrecked ship, and nothing else.

Rumble, rumble, rumble, mutiny, mutiny, mutiny.

Seriously a real friend is willing to take constriction criticism. No one should be pushed out of the fun, and you clearly have.

Dimthar
05-31-2008, 05:16 AM
However, the DM likes to Railroad us and says stuff like "ok you can do it but the rest of the party is leaving and you will get lost if you do not follow ... " ..... .... So, they left; I stayed and took the head. I got lost and teleported home. they got into a fight and needed me and blamed me for the day delay.

Aside from the "Railroad" approach, I wonder if in this specific module "Time" is an important factor. Let me explain, suppose the "captive girl" is going to be sacrificed in a dark ritual, in that case, stopping to check out for treasure the dead bodies of the Lich minions does not make any sense, the party risks to arrive too late and not being able to save the girl.


Then you need to deal with the DM. I would say you have a problem. And simply venting isn't enough. Confront it, if you are going to be limited to "what the module says", tell him to write fiction and leave the DMing to someone that is creative.

Well, it was mentioned before that "It is the only game in town" and I respect anyone who takes the challange of being the DM regardless of his/her skill at it, even if it is as boulet said "mediocre rpg".

I guess we need a little more information, How long have they been playing together? and for How long has she been the DM?

At the end, if the player is not having fun, the ultimate decision (leave the group) is his. Seems that he/she knows the DM for a long time, so my guess is that either you stick with chocolate icecream, or go out and buy yourself a vanilla one.

.

agoraderek
06-01-2008, 05:11 PM
i would have problems in that game for sure. i've never been meek about expressing my opinion, and ive never been timid about using the "nuclear option".

the last dm i played with (and the reason im DMing the next go around, with all new players) misrepresented himself on a meetup board as being knowlegdeable of the game and setting we were playing in (forgotten realms) and knew little about either. he was dming a group with myself and three people who were relatively new to the game. he was condescending, rude, had little ability to present a cohesive narrative, and would make crass, sexist statements about npcs, which thoroughly ticked off my gf. as i was hosting the games, i took perverse pleasure in inviting this buffoon to get the bleep out of my house. that was six months ago, and i have just now gotten to a place where i even want to look at a book again. (yes, the experience was that bad...)

im starting a game up starting next week (creating characters and backrounds, sort of a workshop, as i am running a game for newbies, and want them to understand the hows and whys during the creation process) and i want to ensure that these new players see the game as it should be, fun, entertaining and a great way to spend a sunday afternoon. i may have to practice a small ammount of "railroading" until they get comfortable with how the game works, but it will be minimal, and more of a "carrot" approach than a "stick".

i guess my point is, there is no reason to stay with a game that isnt fun. we dont have enough time in this mortal coil to allow what should be a fun diversion become a chore.

tesral
06-02-2008, 12:07 AM
Well, it was mentioned before that "It is the only game in town" and I respect anyone who takes the challange of being the DM regardless of his/her skill at it, even if it is as boulet said "mediocre rpg".
.

Well to paraphrase the old saying, "It takes a pretty good game to beat no game at all." Sometime no game is better than a bad game you're not having fun playing.

Annshadow
06-02-2008, 08:59 AM
Well to paraphrase the old saying, "It takes a pretty good game to beat no game at all." Sometime no game is better than a bad game you're not having fun playing.

Since we are cross posting on the NEW DM thread I though I would post the latest update to my sorry affair here.

The below story ends with me getting up and saying "Fine. I quit."

Since in real life I use to be a marine salvage crew I know how to do stuff ... well lets just go to the script.

Me: Ok I ask the captain if she has the skill to go in shallow and come along the Wyvern (our ship).
DM: (no responce just looks at me to continue)
Me: Ok. We secure forward and backing lines fore and aft and lash the middle lines tight.
I have the crew and work crew shift ballast of both ships so that the nixie is below the Wyvern and lash them tight.
DM: (still listening)
Me: ok now I have the load/ballast of the Nixie shifted over while keeping the Wyvern ballast inward. But I warn the crews to expect the ship to come off the reef.

I had 2 people with the fly spell to act as steerage.

Me: Ok.. (I was looking for responce form DM to see if there would be any mishaps)

Other Player: Forget all this stuff you don't have to go into how you are doing it just say that you get the work crews repairing the ship.

Me: Well, my character's background is in ship repair and construction and this is his expertise.

Other player: Its wasting time.

Me: Well I'm done anyway we ground the ships bow first and tie off to trees and drop anchor aft.

DM: after doing other stuff with some other players.

Ok: roll a Carpenter check and random encounter for another day work.

Carpenter check 14 +14 28 success. Random encounter ... 08.
DM: roll 1d8 +4
ME: 7+4=11

DM: Ok. you hear screams coming from the Wyvern
Me: I go to investigate.

roll initiative.

DM: are you doing anything else?
Me: I don't know. How far away am I?
DM: you're on the beach next to the ship.
Me: What do I see?
DM: you see a bunch of Stingrays inside the ship killing the work crew.
Me: I yell for them to jump ashore or get topside.
DM: what else are you doing.

Me: I'm sorry. did you say the stingrays were inside the ship?
DM: yes.

Me: the ship is dry.
DM: no its not. It is stuck on the reef and the crew is repairing it.

Me: No. I put the ships to ground. Bow first with the holes out of the water so I could make repairs.

Me: I suppose the stingrays could be attacking the crews who are wading in teh water removing the old wood.

DM: Wait. How did you get the ship off the reef.
DM: Nevermind. I'll have 11 dinosaurs come out of the jungle and the whole crew will be dead instead.

Me: That's fine.

ALL PLAYERS ERRUPT INTO ARGUEMENT.
Most of the argument is against me for being stubborn.

I say. Look. It is a random encounter I have no control of it.

DM: The rest of you guys took off and left one party member alone with the work crew and you did not think of random encounters. So, don't complain.

Other Player: We always use sending to find out how things are going so we send a message.

Cleric: I ask "How are things going"
Me: <DM Name> so what are we being attacked by. Stingrays that are eating the waders or 11 dinosaurs that killed the entire crew.

DM: Stingrays.

Me: answering the sending spell. "We had a bit of trouble. 4 dead. Everyting ok now."

Other players: We teleport to the ships.

Argument ensues about the time sequence.

Me: We are about 30 yards from the jungle? I go 50 foot into jungle and cast Fabricate and make a bunch of lumber.

DM: I looked at your fabricate spell and it does not work like you were doing it. You have to cut the trees down first.

Me: Reading the spell " It says for example you can make a bridge from a clump of trees."
DM: it says that creatures are uneffected.

Other Player: Wait. A tree is not a creature.
DM: yes it is.
Other Player: No.
Me: No. some plants maybe. but not a tree. I would say that if it is ambulatory then it is a creature.

DM: well I'm saying that you have to cut the trees down first.

Me. Ok. Well how long will it take?
DM: a day to cut down treel
Me: A Day?
DM: Yes if you want to build a baracade around the parts to be reapired and get out of random encounters than you will have to waste another day.

Me: ok. then I'll teleport to the temple we cleared with the copper doors and get 4,500 lbs of copper and come back tomorrow.

(steel weights 500lb per cubic foot)

Game breaks into choas as everyone is yelling at me.

DM's Husband: Lets just play the Fracking game or just quit.

Me: ok. I quit. I stand up and close my books.

Other player: We said we teleported after he got the message so none of this would have happened.

Other player. <DM Name> We get there what do we see.

the rest of the session goes by quite smoothly and actually enjoyable.

I study for my national boards in Metal engineering. We finish building our railroad. Teleport to town and I (For the first time since level 2) get to purchase Spells. I go outside in the fresh air while the others sell stuff.

the day ends just before the final battle (For me at any rate) of the campaign.


BELOW IS AN EMAIL I SENT TO THE GROUP
names removed to protect the innocent

***********************************

Since we will be starting 4th Edition soon and none of us knows any thing about it, this would be a perfect time to give <NAME> rest as DM.

I'm sure she is getting burned out and this will allow her to play instead of DM.

I will volunteer and have time at work to go over things and I have not DM for us.

Not to worry <Other Player>, I will not seek revenge on you for being an alignment nazi (remember the time you DM'd and you took away my cleric character's higher level spells for one (questionable) alignment violation)

Or if someone else wants to DM that will be fine, too. I think it is important give <DM Name> a break DM'ing and allow her to be a player for a while.


It is also good to have others DM so that they can see how difficult it is to run things and it will make better players of us all.

Lord knows I could use the experience.

I am already buying the PHB and I can buy the DMG and MM as well.

If this is ok with you all, I'll get the module from <DM Name> (who should not read it) when It comes in and study it so as to be prepared to run it.
************************************

If they do not go for that. Well, I told my wife. I'm not having fun; and

Well to paraphrase the old saying, "It takes a pretty good game to beat no game at all." Sometime no game is better than a bad game you're not having fun playing.

Schmall
06-02-2008, 12:37 PM
The first time I actually read through the DMG for AD&D and learned to DM, there was this one certain rule that stuck out and I use it everytime a disgruntled rule lawyer pops up. It said something to the effect of using the core books not as a "matter of fact, must be done this way," but instead as a guideline. The magic word "GUIDLINES!!" I love it. I love flexiblity. If something makes sense and its within the player's abilities, they pull it off (outside of combat I rarely use the dice unless actually called for).

As for hacking the head off a T-Rex and using "guideline rules" I personally would have said 5 minutes also. You are not hacking in a straight line. Its neck is too big. Just like a log, you go in a V shape, so it takes longer. Now if you happen to be a troll with a large great axe with power attack, then maybe 2 minutes.

Just feel lucky, if I was DMing, I would have tripled the chance for a random encounter and the critter would have been some scavanger that smelled all that blood that has soaked into your clothes (unless you washed it all off =]).

Tesral has hit the nail right on the head. Speak to your DM. Never know. May you can come to an agreement. That extra 5 days can be spent peping yourselves/ Ranger makes more arrows or bolts, Wizard scries out the pirates (your DM may hate this part), the cleric or druid heals all to full (over 5 weeks of healing and prays, I make it given for full health), the rogue preps some traps to be set up, or maybe someone can craft some nefty magical item for the adventure that your scying suggests you may need (water breathing potions..??).

ps, you are a wizard? Whats to stop you from using telekensis on you great axe and just slicing right?

tesral
06-02-2008, 12:47 PM
If they do not go for that. Well, I told my wife. I'm not having fun; and

Well I am sorry it came to that. "It's a random encounter I can't help it" is just lame. Situational awarness sucks. She's not a DM she's a conductor, and a poor one at that.

And stingrays only strike if attacked. They are placid creatures.

Ghodd, send her to me, I'll give her an earful she will not likely forget.

Schmall
06-02-2008, 12:53 PM
lol. I made the above post without noticing the second page. Sorry about that. Sounds like you have made some headway with stepping up at least. Hope things work out with you. I also hope you sent a similiar email to the "Nazi" DM so that it doesnt appear you are backstabbing her. Just a thought.

Annshadow
06-02-2008, 08:53 PM
lol. I made the above post without noticing the second page. Sorry about that. Sounds like you have made some headway with stepping up at least. Hope things work out with you. I also hope you sent a similiar email to the "Nazi" DM so that it doesnt appear you are backstabbing her. Just a thought.


Oh yeah. It was sent to all 5 of us. I kid him about it since he is one of the biggest anti-alignment types. He has no use for it and always says "Forget alignment. Just play!!" He is really a good player. Thinks roleplaying and non combat is a waste of time, but he is totally up front about it and rolls with the flow.

She is looking for input and wants the other players to chime in.

I sent her Garry's rules for DM'ing and told the group that that is how I plan to run things. I also said that it would be great if we all kept the thought in mind....

Wonder if seeing each rule the opposite of her style will sink in.

nijineko
06-08-2008, 04:14 PM
In our game, we killed a T-Rex.
I wanted to cut the head off for a trophy (shrink item blah blah blah)
DM said 5 min (50 rounds)
I said "fine"
That got me thinking about how would you do it via the rules.
I figure the hide is about 2 inches thick each side 4 inch hardness 2 hp 20
flesh 5 foot hardness 1 x 60 = 60 Hp
Bone .. could not find bone so I figure the spinal cord is stone hardness 8 hp 15/inch figure it is hollow so 3 inches for 45 Hp
I was using a Great Axe and figured on the Coup de Grace rules for crit hits
I figure 7 to 10 rounds at 1d12 (ave 6)
But when I talked about this later the DM said Coup de Grace is only for living things because .... blah blah blah.
What does one use to figure out how much time it takes to chop a tree or a T-Rex head??

your issue was actually addressed in some place i read once... either an ask wizards, or sage advice or something. in any case it is basically this: dead bodies count as objects. thus the rules used are the rules for causing damage to objects. the only catch is deciding what hardness a corpse gets. probably at least 5 for the bones. ^^ then figure out how much hp it would take to completely destroy the coporeal form of the body. or in your case how much hp to sever the part in question. probably not much. maybe 10-15% of total hp? then see how much damage you can do per round to acheive severance. or you could just use a sword of sharpness, or vorporal weapon. or the sunder rules-since you can sunder objects. ^^

this partially came up when i sent in a question relating how to handle suspended animation. turns out that because a suspended body isn't dead despite not being able to tell as per the description, it doesn't count as an object, which therefore cannot be a valid target for the shrink spell. (i eventually found another (legal) way around this....)



i'm sorry to hear that it turned out so poorly. sounds very rough. i hope you have luck with the change in dm. let us know how it goes.

agoraderek
06-08-2008, 11:25 PM
Well I am sorry it came to that. "It's a random encounter I can't help it" is just lame. Situational awarness sucks. She's not a DM she's a conductor, and a poor one at that.

And stingrays only strike if attacked. They are placid creatures.

Ghodd, send her to me, I'll give her an earful she will not likely forget.

amen, preach it brother! i wonder how many people who would have otherwise loved roleplaying never caught the bug due to a poor experience their first time...

tesral
06-09-2008, 03:54 PM
amen, preach it brother! i wonder how many people who would have otherwise loved roleplaying never caught the bug due to a poor experience their first time...

Far too many I fear.