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mrken
05-21-2008, 09:28 AM
What are your thoughts about critical miss and critical success? I am using a d100 system and use 01 – 05 as critical success and 95 – 00 as critical miss.

The reason I ask is for years I have used this system, but the more I use it the less I feel comfortable about the results. Let me explain. In an online game we used an artisan class system. This was to explain away large amounts of off-line time and to allow characters to earn money, most especially new players. It also allowed older characters to create items for the game, done for the most part by posting the characters action in a written form for experience points traded for levels.

As for myself, I have personal experience in many of the classes. It bugged me and many of my fellow players to have such a system in play. Many of us remember that we had some natural aptitude for the skill before we begun. With further practice we got better. Some even reached a fairly advanced ability. Sure there was some chance for failure but never to the extent of rolling a 00 and having a building blow up from pouring gold into a mold or some such stuff, or one high level character totally ruining three large emeralds from a poor roll. This stuff just does not happen, really.

My thoughts are to get rid of the crits altogether, or eliminate the disasters from happening to high levels and the incredible results happening to the beginners. Personally I would like to just toss the whole concept at this time, if not just for one less rule to deal with then for the added believability.

cplmac
05-21-2008, 10:28 AM
What are your thoughts about critical miss and critical success? I am using a d100 system and use 01 – 05 as critical success and 95 – 00 as critical miss.

The reason I ask is for years I have used this system, but the more I use it the less I feel comfortable about the results. Let me explain. In an online game we used an artisan class system. This was to explain away large amounts of off-line time and to allow characters to earn money, most especially new players. It also allowed older characters to create items for the game, done for the most part by posting the characters action in a written form for experience points traded for levels.

As for myself, I have personal experience in many of the classes. It bugged me and many of my fellow players to have such a system in play. Many of us remember that we had some natural aptitude for the skill before we begun. With further practice we got better. Some even reached a fairly advanced ability. Sure there was some chance for failure but never to the extent of rolling a 00 and having a building blow up from pouring gold into a mold or some such stuff, or one high level character totally ruining three large emeralds from a poor roll. This stuff just does not happen, really.

My thoughts are to get rid of the crits altogether, or eliminate the disasters from happening to high levels and the incredible results happening to the beginners. Personally I would like to just toss the whole concept at this time, if not just for one less rule to deal with then for the added believability.


First, this sort of sounds like something on the lines of a house rule.

Second, it seems to be like the roll of 1 on a d20 being a fumble and a roll of 20 doing double damage.

This is using 2E setting of course.

boulet
05-21-2008, 11:34 AM
One of my favorite games, Reve de Dragon, combined both a trait + skills system (a little bit like WoD) but using a resolution table which would give from the trait, skill and difficulty of the action a percentile value for success. The critical were defined as 5% of this value, the "particular" success was 10% and fumble was a little more complicated but basically was on a roll superior to somewhere between 95% and 99% (if your chance was 80% or more, fumble only on 100% for instance). It was a little clunky but we loved it. Both critic and fumbles bring (a little) experience to the traits and skills, maybe that's why we loved them :)

nijineko
05-21-2008, 08:21 PM
rolemaster. aka chartmaster. best critical tables i've ever laughed my head off at. i mean, who can beat, and i paraphrase: "you trip over a deceased, invisible, non-existant turtle and fall flat on your face. you are stunned x rounds. everyone who witnesses your little episode are stunned for x-2 rounds laughing at you..." for a fumble crit, or "complete cellular dismemberment..." for a lightning crit, or "try a spatula..." for a crush crit?

but generally speaking, i am in favor of crit tables. there are many methods of doing it, from rolling a die and thinking something up depending on how bad they roll, to a completely indexed system of charts (rolemaster). pick the method best for your game, but i think critical success and failures add to a game. =D

tesral
05-21-2008, 11:26 PM
If you want to drop the critical results, drop them. No cat girls will die because of it.

If you have critical results they should be appropriate to the task at hand. Casting metal will not blow anything up no matter how badly you do it. You cannot decapitate the person standing behind you on a bow fumble. Such results are the reason I don't like tables. They often will not fit the circumstances.

Malruhn
05-22-2008, 12:15 AM
I like the idea of crit success and failure, but haven't seen a system that made it realistic enough for me.

I'm thinking that a first level character has a WHOLE lot better chance of having a spectacular screw-up than a 20th level character - and the 20th level has a much better chance of having a Polaroid-Moment success than a first level character...

and none of the systems I've seen can do that.

boulet
05-22-2008, 07:56 AM
We need a term for the guy that can build the worst possible waste of stats character in any system and do it every time. Oh and excuses his anti power gaming to the point of impediment as "I'm a role player" as if you need a bad character to role play.
I never met a player with this attitude. I myself have a tendancy to create PCs who are not fitting into the settings expectations. It's a kind of compulsion : I want a character who's slightly off the typical careers of the group. Playing high-violence theme ? I'll probably play a scholar or a priest. Playing futuristic investigation ? I'll probably chose a rural, non technology savvy brute. I'm trying to control this tendancy but it's about how I get my fun out of RPGs and I don't want to screw with it either...

What I've seen, are players who aren't interested in the game system and it might be mistaken for "anti-powergaming". It's not that they want a loser PC but they just put the accent on the biography of their character and almost no input into the numbers.

tesral
05-22-2008, 01:38 PM
I never met a player with this attitude. I myself have a tendancy to create PCs who are not fitting into the settings expectations. It's a kind of compulsion : I want a character who's slightly off the typical careers of the group. Playing high-violence theme ? I'll probably play a scholar or a priest. Playing futuristic investigation ? I'll probably chose a rural, non technology savvy brute. I'm trying to control this tendancy but it's about how I get my fun out of RPGs and I don't want to screw with it either...

What I've seen, are players who aren't interested in the game system and it might be mistaken for "anti-powergaming". It's not that they want a loser PC but they just put the accent on the biography of their character and almost no input into the numbers.

No input would be in improvement. The player I'm thinking of, and he does this "well" will pay attention to the numbers. "I'm running a magician so I'll put the 12 in Int and the 16 in Str." He'll have a biography to match, "He's a farm boy that left the manual labor to study magic." but he has just created a cripple magician and will fight any suggestion that he have any fighter levels. In fact that PC will avoid physical violence, also making the 16 Str useless.

Then, he will complain when his PC cannot DO anything. But, insist that this approch is "good role-playing".

cplmac
05-22-2008, 07:35 PM
No input would be in improvement. The player I'm thinking of, and he does this "well" will pay attention to the numbers. "I'm running a magician so I'll put the 12 in Int and the 16 in Str." He'll have a biography to match, "He's a farm boy that left the manual labor to study magic." but he has just created a cripple magician and will fight any suggestion that he have any fighter levels. In fact that PC will avoid physical violence, also making the 16 Str useless.

Then, he will complain when his PC cannot DO anything. But, insist that this approch is "good role-playing".


So he purposely creates a loser PC and then whines that his character is a loser PC?:confused:

nijineko
05-22-2008, 07:55 PM
If you want to drop the critical results, drop them. No cat girls will die because of it.

If you have critical results they should be appropriate to the task at hand. Casting metal will not blow anything up no matter how badly you do it. You cannot decapitate the person standing behind you on a bow fumble. Such results are the reason I don't like tables. They often will not fit the circumstances.

rolemaster has that covered. the situation you describe could not happen from the rolemaster crit charts. misfires usually don't do much damage, unless the weapon itself is an extremely damaging one. if i recall, misfires roll on the a-crit table, while the extreme results i was listing for the humor value are e-crit results, and the max possible at that. (tables start at 'a', and go down the alphabet from there.)

agoraderek
05-22-2008, 09:28 PM
here's what i do: i run crits as standard 3.5, confirmation roll and all that.

crit "fumbles" i handle like this: you roll a one. this is a fumble threat. you roll again. if the second roll would miss, this confirms the fumble. roll d%. 1-80 +bab, nothing happens. anything over is a fumble (say you have a 10th level fighter, he or she would fumble on a 91 or better on the % roll.) 00 is always a fumble. then i consult a table (heavily modified "rolemaster" type chart)

the fumbles, for the most part, are somewhat mild, like lose a standard action or lose dex bonus to ac for one round (i.e. you're flatfooted). occasionally something bad will happen, but that is progressively more rare as players go up in level, as i subtract their bab from the results roll.

tesral
05-22-2008, 10:40 PM
So he purposely creates a loser PC and then whines that his character is a loser PC?:confused:

Give the man a cookie! Yes that is it exactly and That player no longer plays with me. For the bonus round would you like to venture why?


rolemaster has that covered. the situation you describe could not happen from the rolemaster crit charts. misfires usually don't do much damage, unless the weapon itself is an extremely damaging one. if i recall, misfires roll on the a-crit table, while the extreme results i was listing for the humor value are e-crit results, and the max possible at that. (tables start at 'a', and go down the alphabet from there.)

TMT Too Many Tables. 100 tables makes for no faster combat than 100 feats. I wnat to play my cahracter not flip through tables.

nijineko
05-23-2008, 08:37 PM
i wasn't suggesting that they be used in play! but they are great reading. =D

tesral
05-23-2008, 09:13 PM
i wasn't suggesting that they be used in play! but they are great reading. =D

The plot moves poorly and they lack characterization. The phone book was better.

mrken
05-24-2008, 09:54 AM
After reading to all of your thoughts I think I like Tesral’s advice best. If I drop the crits all together it will make the combats go faster and it will ease the weight of the rules (I have like a whole page of them). Though I will wait until my players return from holiday and drag them into this first. Lol

Previously I had thought to use the fumbles for the first five levels with one number dropping off after each level bump and adding a critical success at the last five levels with increasing chances, but I thought that would be even more mental thought processes during the exact time I am most busy, combat. So, as Tesral says, no one will die if I just drop it altogether. I like that line of thinking best, simple. And to steal a line from a man I loathe, simplicity has a quality all it’s own.

cplmac
05-26-2008, 10:02 AM
Give the man a cookie! Yes that is it exactly and That player no longer plays with me. For the bonus round would you like to venture why?


First, because the constant complaining made the game less enjoyable for everyone else.

Second, because as you have previously said, you do not want to be everyone at the game table's parent.



After reading to all of your thoughts I think I like Tesral’s advice best.


As you are seeing first hand, Tesral's knowledge is top notch and there is almost always something that you can incorporate into your own game.

tesral
05-26-2008, 08:28 PM
First, because the constant complaining made the game less enjoyable for everyone else.

Second, because as you have previously said, you do not want to be everyone at the game table's parent.


Give the man a whole BAG of cookies.




As you are seeing first hand, Tesral's knowledge is top notch and there is almost always something that you can incorporate into your own game.

Dude, keep this up and I'll need a bigger hat. :o

cplmac
05-27-2008, 08:45 AM
Dude, keep this up and I'll need a bigger hat. :o


Only speaking the truth. I can only hope to be as good of a DM to have a single "game" run for as long as your's has.