What Level Wizard Is Dumbledore?

[Tony Misfeldt]

I started this thread on www.wherethegamesare.com (http://www.wherethegamesare.com) and it was a lot of fun. Take your favorite fantasy character from TV, movies, or literature and speculate on what level, stats, skills, alignment, etc, they would have if they were D&D characters. And don't feel obligated to restrict your character choices to those from the Harry Potter books and films. The title of this thread could just as easily have been "What Level Fighter Is Xena Warrior Princess?" or "What Level Barbarian Is Thundarr?" or "What Level Ranger Is Aragorn?" or "What Level Wizard Is Gandalph?"

So put your thinking caps on, be creative, and have fun! Use any fantasy resource you want. Xena Warrior Princess, Willow, Dragonheart, Robin Hood: Prince Of Thieves, Kull The Conqueror, Thundarr The Barbarian, The Lord Of The Rings, The Pirates Of The Caribbean, the list goes on and on and on. Have fun and I'm looking forward to reading your responces.

[fmitchell]

Didn't someone say Gandalf was only a 5th-level Wizard by D&D standards? (Except maybe the whole coming-back-from-the-dead thing.)

The problem with comparing magic-users is that each author's concept of magic varies so wildly that trivial powers in D&D are rare in low-magic worlds, while in others ordinary mortals can sometimes wield what would be world-shaking powers in D&D.

Describe Paul Atreides in D&D Psionics terms. I dare you.

[tesral]

What he said. It's a frustrating exercise in that the magic systems do not line up. Middle Earth is low or epic magic, Potterverse is common but few have it.

[Tony Misfeldt]

It can be frustrating translating wizards from one world or another to the D&D system, but it's the challenge that makes discussions like this fun. Remember the whole point of this thread is to have fun speculating, not to lay down the law and say "This is (enter character name here)'s class and level, and that's that!" Just think about what fantasy characters you enjoy watching in movies and TV or reading about in novels and give them the D&D treatment. You think wizards such as Gandalph or Dumbledore are too tough? Try writing up stats for Aragorn, The Scorpion King, Madmarteggan, Captain Jack Sparrow, Xena, or any other fantasy warrior you can think of.

On my original thread we wound up debating whether the characters from the Harry Potter books would be classified as Wizards or Sorcerrors in the D&D game. My opinion is that they're sorcerrors. In D&D wizards have to learn their spells through countless hours of study and meditation, while sorcerrors are born with the ability to cast spells. In Harry Potter witches and wizards are born with their powers and simply go to schools like Hogwarts to learn to control them (rather like mutants going to Professor Xavier's School For The Gifted in The X-Men). We also debated the use of wands in the Harry Potter stories. Some gamers were trying to instill D&D rules to the use of Harry Potter wands (each wand is made to cast certain spells and has X number of charges, etc). I say all spells in the Harry Potter Universe have three components: Vocal (Occulus Repairem); Somatic (Swish & Flick); and Focal (The Wand). Creating and charging wands in D&D fashion doesn't happen in the Harry Potter Universe.

Anyway, like I said before, don't worry about world magical compatibility. If wizards are too tough, do fighters or rogues. If Gandalph doesn't translate well to D&D terms because Middle-Earth is too low magic, do Queen Bavmorta from Willow (she turned 500 men into pigs, that should be some clue as to her level). Just have fun with it. If someone disagrees with your interpretation they can say so and suggest the changes they think should be made to your entry (you made him too high/low a level, you made his stats too high/low, I think his alignment should be this not that, etc). The whole point is to have fun in the speculation, so start speculting.

[Tony Misfeldt]

Describe Paul Atreides in D&D Psionics terms. I dare you.

As I'm unfamiliar with that character, I'm afraid I can't. But feel free to give it a try yourself.

[InfoStorm]

Paul Atreides was the primary character in Dune. "The sleeper has awakened!"

Problem is that he's sci-fi, not fantasy. You'd have to use a different game system like Alternity, Traveler 2k, or such.

I find it can be quite hard to translate fantasy to Sci-Fi.

[Tony Misfeldt]

Okay, I'll give you guys an example.

In the animated feature The Lord Of The Rings, Borimir was depicted as a viking. As fantasy barbarians are based heavily on viking culture, we can assume that Borimir is of the D&D barbarian class. Obviously he's of good alignment, but easily corrupted by the power of The One Ring, thus I'd guess his alignment to be Neutral Good. He single handedly slew several uruk-hai (which in D&D are called orogs), thus he's quite strong and of some skill. In 2nd Ed he'd have a strength somewhere between 18/76 and 18/100. In 3rd Ed he'd have a strength score of at least 18, likely more if he's over 4th level (which he likely is). When he was trying to rescue Merry and Pippin, it took seven arrows to take him down. The arrows were imbedded in his chest up to their fletchings, so we can assume they did max damage. They were also likely to be sheaf arrows, which means Borimir took 56 hit points of damage before he fell (7 X 8 = 56). Subtract 12 from the damage he took and divide the remainder by 6 and add 1 and you'll have his aproximate level (56-12=44, 44 divided by 6 = 7.7), so Borimir is roughly 8th level. So the character is...

Borimir (Human Male NG 8th Level Barbarian)
Hit Points: 56; STR: 20; DEX: 16; CON: 10; WIS: 10; INT: 13
FEATS: Simple Weapon Proficiency, Martial Weapon Proficiency, Light Armor Proficiency, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword), Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword), Power Strike, Cleave

Skill: Standard Barbarian Skills.

There! That's not so hard is it? Now that I've got the ball rolling, go ahead and make your own additions.

[tesral]

There! That's not so hard is it? Now that I've got the ball rolling, go ahead and make your own additions.

That one is easy, he gets killed so you have an objective measure of his power level in D&D terms.

What about Gandalf? He fell down the inside of a mountain and fought for three days and nights before defeating his foe (A demon every Orc in creation was running from) and perishing himself. And then he got better. Gandalf is not a mortal being, simple. You are looking at at least A 0 level defic, Level 1 after he comes back. Power level? What is appropriate to your world? Middle Earth counts wizards on the fingers of one hand. D&D they are common as weeds.

Dumbledore is another matter. They don't quite fit the D&D mold. The idea hovers somewhere between the Sorcerer, the Wizard and a touch of Warlock. They never seem to lack magic. We have never seen a Potterverse character to exhausted to do magic. They require training, Wizard like. They have the power from birth, Warlock and Sorcerer like. The magic for the most part is vastly unexplained. It is common and used for nearly everything and kids can do effects that would be major spells in the D&D universe (transformations) but you see none of the mass combat magic. Conclusion, Take a look at your game world and put Dumbledore in the top 1% of Wizards on said world. If that is 11th level so be it, if it's 50th level, then go with it.

You pretty much have to decide where they stand in their own setting as to relative power level and adjust accordingly. In Thindacarulle Both Gandalf and Dumbledore would be wizards of stunning power. Gandalf would be a minor Vala, a godling in short. Dumbledore somewhere over 30th level, possibly even a rare and much feared Century Mage (the number of which can be counted on one hand)

[boulet]

It seems to me that a character like Dumbledore is better represented by a system like Ars Magica or Mage than d20 systems. Like Tesral said, he never seems to lack magic resource like the typical D&D spell caster do. A system where magical feats are quite limitless in quantity but where risk involved is greater seems more pertinent.

[Farcaster]

Dumbledore is another matter. They don't quite fit the D&D mold. The idea hovers somewhere between the Sorcerer, the Wizard and a touch of Warlock.

Good point. Perhaps if you were going to build this character in the framework of the D&D system, you'd make him multi-classed. Part sorcerer, part wizard, and perhaps part some kind of wild mage as well -- particularly for Potter himself.

[fmitchell]

Paul Atreides was the primary character in Dune. "The sleeper has awakened!"

Problem is that he's sci-fi, not fantasy. You'd have to use a different game system like Alternity, Traveler 2k, or such.

Dune is really fantasy with science fiction trappings. Force shields that stop all projectiles? Feudal families? Prescience? Knife-fights?

Actually, Dune's prescience is the one thing which would frustrate any game system. A GM who told the prescient PC exactly what was about to happen, and what kind of moral choice he'd have to make at critical points, would qualify as a railroad magnate. Plus, like many authors, Herbert allows his characters to pull powers out of their nether regions -- prescience can let a blind man see? -- and dismiss them just as readily.

J. K. Rowling is particularly guilty of this, but every author does it to a degree.

What D&D classes and level is Door or the Marquis De Carabas from Neverwhere? What kind of monsters are Mr. Kroup and Mr. Vandemar, or the Angel Islington? D&D is just the wrong system to model that particular work ... not because it's urban fantasy, but because Neil Gaiman didn't think in D&D classes and monsters when he wrote it.

About the only works where you can figure out a neat D&D class and level are books based on D&D, or books that directly influenced D&D (e.g. LotR, Conan, or Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser). Most other works have radically different assumptions about what magic can do, what the human body can do, and why people have adventures.


P.S. Yes, I know I'm being a wet blanket. I don't see the point of the exercise. For those that do, this will be my last post on this thread.

[cplmac]

For Dumbledore, I would think that he would be at least 15th level. As for Gandalph, I am thinking somewhere along the lines of 8th level before the fall and at least 10th when we next see him.

I have to use the higher level for Dumbledore because there is a vastly greater number of mages/wizards in the Harry Potter setting than there is in the Lord of the rings setting.

[Farcaster]

What about Legolas though? What level would you place him at? I think that clearly by D&D standards he was an epic archer considering the things he could do. That would probably place him at a higher comparative level than Gandalf or most of the other characters for that matter.

[cplmac]

What about Legolas though? What level would you place him at? I think that clearly by D&D standards he was an epic archer considering the things he could do. That would probably place him at a higher comparative level than Gandalf or most of the other characters for that matter.


Yes, I agree that Legolas was an epic archer, in my untrained knowledge. I would need to consult with tesral in the matter of archery, my knowledge lies in rifle marksmanship and hand to hand combat. So I would probably list him as 14th level, pending talking with tesral.

I also have to look at each class separately. Trying to judge a fighter and a wizard by the same standards, I feel would be like comparing apples to elephants.

[Tony Misfeldt]

That one is easy, he gets killed so you have an objective measure of his power level in D&D terms.

What about Gandalf? He fell down the inside of a mountain and fought for three days and nights before defeating his foe (A demon every Orc in creation was running from) and perishing himself. And then he got better. Gandalf is not a mortal being, simple.



For Gandalph, I think his level of power depends on exactly which source you're using as inspiration. In the books he really uses very little magic. But in the movie they make him somewhat more powerful (obviously for dramatic purposes). In The Fellowship Of The Ring, Gandalphs duel with Saroman was pretty much a case of them throwing each other around with Telekenisis spells. Later he uses either a Light or Continual Light spell to light their way through the Mines Of Moriard. Then when he fought the Balrog he protected himself from the demon's fiery sword with some sort of Shield or Wall Of Force spell. Then he broke the bridge with his staff, perhaps a version of the priest spell Earthquake. Check the caster levels for these spells and that should give you some indication of Gandalph's level were he a D&D character.

For Dumbledore, I would think that he would be at least 15th level. As for Gandalph, I am thinking somewhere along the lines of 8th level before the fall and at least 10th when we next see him.

I have to use the higher level for Dumbledore because there is a vastly greater number of mages/wizards in the Harry Potter setting than there is in the Lord of the rings setting.

I'd actually guess Dumbledore to be higher level, 20th perhaps even epic. Reason being is he's the only wizard Voldemort fears. Voldemort was powerful enough to pass beyond being a mortal wizard and become a lich. Liches have at least 18 hit dice (unless they have vastly changed since 2nd Ed) and I find it hard to believe that Voldemort would be afraid of a wizard of lower level than he.

If you're using the LOTR movies as your inspiration of Gandalph's experience level, I think he may be of higher level. Remember, in The Two Towers Gandalph releases King Theodin from Saroman's Domination spell (in the book there was no spell, Gandalph just had to talk him up). Domination is a pretty powerful spell (6th level I think) and it would have had to take quite a powerful wizard to dispell it.



P.S. Yes, I know I'm being a wet blanket. I don't see the point of the exercise. For those that do, this will be my last post on this thread.

The point is to think about things like this and state your opinion for the hell of it. With my old D&D group back home, if we didn't have enough people for a game or we just weren't in the mood for D&D that night we'd put a fantasy movie into the VCR (Willow, Conan, Red Sonja, Beastmaster, whatever) and watch it making these kinds of speculations. The debates that ensued were often as entertaining as the movies themselves, sometimes more so. And now we finally have some people willing to play.

[tesral]

Check the caster levels for these spells and that should give you some indication of Gandalph's level were he a D&D character.

You're missing the whole falling to the roots of the world in an epic three day battle thing. You know, with the Balrog? A sure push over for an eighth level wizard.

LotR magic does not scale to D&D. You cannot judge by the magic demonstrated. That, as is said, is the rub. Gandalf is no more eighth level than I am a gargoyle. The Simirillion reveals that all the Wizards are low level Vala, godlings.

As to multi classing, again LotR owes D&D nothing. It came first. So why can't wizards use swords if LotR was so influential on D&D? The LotRs characters don't have classes, they have lives. They live the lives and learn things.

[cplmac]

I'd actually guess Dumbledore to be higher level, 20th perhaps even epic. Reason being is he's the only wizard Voldemort fears. Voldemort was powerful enough to pass beyond being a mortal wizard and become a lich. Liches have at least 18 hit dice (unless they have vastly changed since 2nd Ed) and I find it hard to believe that Voldemort would be afraid of a wizard of lower level than he.

If you're using the LOTR movies as your inspiration of Gandalph's experience level, I think he may be of higher level. Remember, in The Two Towers Gandalph releases King Theodin from Saroman's Domination spell (in the book there was no spell, Gandalph just had to talk him up). Domination is a pretty powerful spell (6th level I think) and it would have had to take quite a powerful wizard to dispell it.


A lich can have as low as 11 hit dice. However further research has led me to find that a lich is to have been at least 18th level before becoming a lich, so I'll change my choice of level to 20 for Dumbledore. This is because I also believe that a lich is not going to be to worried about a wizard that is of a lower level than it is. Also, it states that a lich continues to learn more magic even after becoming a lich.

As for Gandalph, since Domination is a 5th level spell, he would have to be at least 9th level to cast it. Ironically, it's controll is able to be stopped by a 1st level Protection from Evil spell, according to the 2E player's handbook.

Guess I should have looked up the info before making my first post. My appologies.

[Tony Misfeldt]

As for Gandalph, since Domination is a 5th level spell, he would have to be at least 9th level to cast it. Ironically, it's controll is able to be stopped by a 1st level Protection from Evil spell, according to the 2E player's handbook.

Guess I should have looked up the info before making my first post. My appologies.

While it might be able to dispell a Domination spell with a first level Protection From Evil spell, in 3rd Edition a wizard's ability to dispell another wizard's spell is highly dependant on the wizards levels in relation to each other. The spell to break the hold of a Domination spell might be 1st level, but if so is the wizard casting it it's not likely going to work. Besides, just because a wizard has to be at least ninth level to cast a spell, doesn't mean he can't be higher level than that.

You're missing the whole falling to the roots of the world in an epic three day battle thing. You know, with the Balrog? A sure push over for an eighth level wizard.

LotR magic does not scale to D&D. You cannot judge by the magic demonstrated. That, as is said, is the rub. Gandalf is no more eighth level than I am a gargoyle. The Simirillion reveals that all the Wizards are low level Vala, godlings.

As to multi classing, again LotR owes D&D nothing. It came first. So why can't wizards use swords if LotR was so influential on D&D? The LotRs characters don't have classes, they have lives. They live the lives and learn things.

Never actually read The Simirillion myself, that's an interesting bit of info. But in D&D, even the gods are assigned levels (at least to determine their level of power when compared to mere mortals). Haven't you ever read Deities & Demigods or Faiths & Avatars?

I've never said that Gandalf was only 8th level. Personally, I find that kind of low. I'd have to watch the movies again and try and match the spells he uses with their D&D equivilants. I also never said he was multiclassed either. I play 2.5 not 3.5, and there are actually 2.5 rules for allowing characters to weild weapons that are normally forbidden to their class. Thus a wizard can use a sword if he wishes to spend the extra character points.

And if you don't wish to take part in the speculations, then don't. No one is forcing anyone else to post. For those of us who are enjoying this exercise, we've got some great speculations here. Keep it up. I'm looking forward to reading more of your posts.

[Tony Misfeldt]

I've been watching the LOTR movies again (it takes less time than rereading the book) and the spell Gandalf uses to block the Balrog's attack looks more like a Globe Of Invulnerability in D&D. That would put his level at around 12th. And you're forgetting that in The Hobbit, Gandalf would appear, disappear, and then reappear later on, almost at random. This would say to me he's capable of teleportation, likely Teleport Without Error. This would put his level closer to 14th.

[tesral]

And if you don't wish to take part in the speculations, then don't. No one is forcing anyone else to post. For those of us who are enjoying this exercise, we've got some great speculations here. Keep it up. I'm looking forward to reading more of your posts.

So I'm in here speculating. I am simply saying that LotR magic does not scale with D&D spells. Likewise the Potterverse. Not equivalent. Ergo you have to look at what is said about the character and the position they hold within their World less at what apparent spell usage they demonstrate.

I have noticed a tendency to pick a spell demonstrated, and peg the caster at the minimum level to cast that demonstrated spell. So if Shella appears in before you and does no magic but produce flame, are you going to peg her as a low level wizard? There is more going on than the magic demonstrated. I as a Wizard will not show off my best shot just so I can be pegged for level. Indeed I tend to have my PCs play their actual capacities close to the chest.

Gandalf (It is an "f" not a "ph" BTW) is a minor godling and highly respected among the peoples of Middle Earth. No one takes him lightly, whether they like him or not. So, you are dealing with at least Defic Level 0 here, and as to actual wizard power, what is the most powerful wizard in your game? Gandalf should be in that league.

Again we look at Dumbldore. Highly respected, even feared by the denizens of his world. No one takes him lightly, even the BBG that takes everyone else lightly. While clearly not a DL0, he is a high level wizard and should rate with the best your World has to offer.

Look at the whole picture, don't narrow your focus to demonstrated spells.

[Farcaster]

You make excellent points, Tesral. I understand what Tony is trying to do though a well. I think he is aiming at making an equivalent character in D&D terms based primarily on their demonstrable powers, not necessarily their status in their own milieu.

[cplmac]

While it might be able to dispell a Domination spell with a first level Protection From Evil spell, in 3rd Edition a wizard's ability to dispell another wizard's spell is highly dependant on the wizards levels in relation to each other. The spell to break the hold of a Domination spell might be 1st level, but if so is the wizard casting it it's not likely going to work. Besides, just because a wizard has to be at least ninth level to cast a spell, doesn't mean he can't be higher level than that.


The way I understand the 2E book, the first level spell only prevents the caster of a domination spell from being able to use the link to the person it was cast on, it doesn't actually dispell the domination. Also, I have always been of the mind set that to be able to counter act a spell of another magic user, the second mage would have to be of the same level or higher. I thought this was the general rule in 2E. Is it the same in the newer versions also?

I'm using what would need to be the lowest possible levels for this thread. Yes, it is totally possible for the character to be of any level higher than these. Sorry about the confussion.

[tesral]

You make excellent points, Tesral. I understand what Tony is trying to do though a well. I think he is aiming at making an equivalent character in D&D terms based primarily on their demonstrable powers, not necessarily their status in their own milieu.

However if you are trying to peg the power level of a given character, their position within their own milieu will tell you more about their power level than any power actually demonstrated. A Gandalf clone in Forgotten Realms is not going to act as did Gandalf. Heck, what do you think Elminster is? FR magic is powerful and freely used. A whole different ball of wax than Middle Earth were magic is either small or epic, with little evidence for the middle range. No character is an island. To peg the power level you need to examine the gestalt, not simply stated ability.

[mrken]

DnD? What’s that? However, in my world Dumbldore would be a 95th level since that is as high as anyone can get, most only get to about 50 to 70. Because Gandalf is a deity of sorts I would give him at least a 10 x 3 to everything, at least. But there has been so little magic there it frustrates most magic using character players. Is it ok I don’t translate them to DnD? :biggrin:

[Farcaster]

What system is that, Mrken?

[Tony Misfeldt]

The way I understand the 2E book, the first level spell only prevents the caster of a domination spell from being able to use the link to the person it was cast on, it doesn't actually dispell the domination. Also, I have always been of the mind set that to be able to counter act a spell of another magic user, the second mage would have to be of the same level or higher. I thought this was the general rule in 2E. Is it the same in the newer versions also?

I'm using what would need to be the lowest possible levels for this thread. Yes, it is totally possible for the character to be of any level higher than these. Sorry about the confussion.

As I don't play wizards often I'm not 100% sure, but I'm fairly certain that it's the same way in both systems. It's just a little easier to understand and execute in 3rd edition. And thank you for clearing up your earlier posts. Maybe in future poste you could write something like "That character would have to be at least this level to accomplish that (spell/feat/whatever)". That would help clear up future confusions.

So I'm in here speculating. I am simply saying that LotR magic does not scale with D&D spells. Likewise the Potterverse. Not equivalent. Ergo you have to look at what is said about the character and the position they hold within their World less at what apparent spell usage they demonstrate.

I have noticed a tendency to pick a spell demonstrated, and peg the caster at the minimum level to cast that demonstrated spell. So if Shella appears in before you and does no magic but produce flame, are you going to peg her as a low level wizard? There is more going on than the magic demonstrated. I as a Wizard will not show off my best shot just so I can be pegged for level. Indeed I tend to have my PCs play their actual capacities close to the chest.

Gandalf (It is an "f" not a "ph" BTW) is a minor godling and highly respected among the peoples of Middle Earth. No one takes him lightly, whether they like him or not. So, you are dealing with at least Defic Level 0 here, and as to actual wizard power, what is the most powerful wizard in your game? Gandalf should be in that league.

Again we look at Dumbldore. Highly respected, even feared by the denizens of his world. No one takes him lightly, even the BBG that takes everyone else lightly. While clearly not a DL0, he is a high level wizard and should rate with the best your World has to offer.

Look at the whole picture, don't narrow your focus to demonstrated spells.

Sorry, but your earlier posts all seemed to have a negative edge to them. "The magic of these two worlds is totally different so why bother speculating" seemed to be your overall opinion.

Now that you've explained your points more clearly, your earlier posts make more sense and don't just look like a disgruntled person griping over something meant to be fun and challenging. I have to say that I agree with you on the respect of looking at the whole of the characters description not just the powers demonstrated. But you have to start such exercises somewhere and powers demonstrated is as good a place to start as any.

If Shella (whoever the hell that is) were to just appear before me, then the first bit of magic I would've seen was a teleportation spell (possibly even Teleport Without Error), not Produce Flame. That would have my estimation of her powers much higher than first level.

As for Dumbledore, I've always maintained that he was of very high level, certainly 20th or better. I often tend to guess that character levels are higher than they actually are. After all, one doesn't go around showing off his best secrets right away does he? At least no wizard worth his robes would and stay alive very long to enjoy it. To quote Qui'Gon Jin "There's always a bigger fish".

[mrken]

What system is that, Mrken?

Farcaster, I must assume you are referring to my game and not DnD. Lol

My system does not use classes but rather skills, on a d100 scale.

[Tony Misfeldt]

Okay, I'll do Xena.... Uh!.... There, did'er. Now I'll make her into a D&D character...

First off, she should deffinately have levels in fighter. After all, she is The Warrior Princess. She should be high enough level to specialize in both the sword and chakram. A fighter has to be at least 4th level to specialize. If she's specialized in both then she must be at least 5th level. She was also the head of her own army, so she must have had the Leadership feat. That would make her at least a 6th level fighter. Now let's just boost that up to 9th level to get her that extra +1 to a stat of her choice. Now with all those cool martial arts moves she does she must have some levels in monk. Her little neck pinch thing closely resembles the monk's Quivering Palm ability, which can only be used at 15th level. Thus she is 24th level total. I figure her stats are likely...

STR: 15 DEX: 20 CON: 16 INT: 15 WIS: 16 CHA: 20
Alignment: CG Feats: Weapon Focus Chakram; Weapon Focus Sword; Simple Weapon Proficiency; Martial Weapon Proficiency; Exotic Weapon Proficiency Chakram; Light Armor Proficiency; Weapon Specialization Chakram; Weapon Specialization Sword; Power Strike; Cleave; Great Cleave; Vorpal Strike; Deflect Arrow; Mounted Combat; Mounted Archery; Leadership.
Skills: She has many skills.

[tesral]

Okay, I'll do Xena.... Uh!.... There, did'er. Now I'll make her into a D&D character...\

Fighting types are easier, everything is up front. We also got many seasons to see and catalog Xena "at work". More data means a better picture.

[boulet]

Many would do Xena I think

[Malruhn]

I'd force her to sit back and watch as I toyed with her little, blond friend!! Hmmmmmmm.

[tesral]

Many would do Xena I think

Lucy Lawless is not hard on the eyes to be sure.

[Farcaster]

STR: 15 DEX: 20 CON: 16 INT: 15 WIS: 16 CHA: 20

Lucy Lawless is not hard on the eyes to be sure.

Nonetheless, I think charisma 20 is way too high for her based on what little of the series I saw. First, charisma doesn't simply represent physical appearance. That being the case, we have to take into account her personality, which from what I saw was quite gruff. Still, points to her for leading an army. That does take a certain force of personality. She might be in the 15-16 range.

[tesral]

Still, points to her for leading an army. That does take a certain force of personality. She might be in the 15-16 range.

That is where I would peg it. You have to watch out for that stat inflation.

[Tony Misfeldt]

Nonetheless, I think charisma 20 is way too high for her based on what little of the series I saw. First, charisma doesn't simply represent physical appearance. That being the case, we have to take into account her personality, which from what I saw was quite gruff. Still, points to her for leading an army. That does take a certain force of personality. She might be in the 15-16 range.

I was going on the assumption that Xena had an 18 CHA at 1st level, then improved it as she leveled up. I would concede that she may have started with a CHA score of 15-16, but that would leave her final score at 17-18 (I ranked her at a wopping 24th level remember). As for how I came to that conclusion, looks played a part in it, but that wasn't my sole reason for such a high score. To those of us who haven't followed the character from the beginning, I'll explain a little about Xena's history. She was introduced as a villain on an episode of Hercules, where she tried to kill Hercules by seducing his frien Iolas and forcing them to fight each other to the death (she didn't really believe Iolas would win, she was counting on Hercules to be so emotionally shattered at having killed his best frien that he'd be unable to defend himself against her). As you mentioned, she did rule her own army. While she was in charge of that army, she conquered almost as often with diplomacy as she did with violence. She always gave her intended targets a chance to surrender without loss of life before she attacked. And if they decided to fight, she only had her men kill the able bodied men defending the towns, never the women, children, and elderly. And when she was looking for new recruits, she didn't always take the professional soldiers. She also recruited the simple woodsmen and farmboys who were looking for a more exciting life. Often she would employ seduction as a tactic to get these recruits, a strategy that takes as much charisma as it does beauty. And lets not forget that she had mellowed considerably after she had given up the life of the warlord and became a traveling hero.

Fighting types are easier, everything is up front. We also got many seasons to see and catalog Xena "at work". More data means a better picture.

Fighting types aren't always easier. Xena's a little easier than most because she has certain skills which translate fairly well to D&D terms. Her little neck pinch for example is essentially like the Quivering Palm ability of a monk "I've cut off the flow of blood to your brain! You'll be dead in minutes unless yiou tell me what I want to know!" The fact that she led an army tells us she likely has the Leadership feat. And a chakram is deffinately an exotic weapon, so she must have Exotic Weapon Proficiency Chakram. Since it's her preferred weapon, she's also likely to have Weapon Specialization in it. Other characters are a little more difficult. Madmarteggan and General Kale from Willow for example. Red Sonja, Conan, and Hercules are all fairly easy, as they have already been given the D&D treatment from TSR and later WotC and Mongoose Publishing as have King Arthur, Sir Lancelot, and Merlin. And as you said before, Borimir is easy because he dies, thus we have an estimation of his number of hitpoints and therefor an aproximate experience level. But what about Aragorn? What level ranger would you peg him at?

Many would do Xena I think

I'd make sure she wore her leather & bronze armor. Oh! And bring her bullwhip too! Gotta have that!

[cplmac]

I'm thinking that I would agree with Farcaster about the charisma of 16 for Xena. Especially at the start. Now, if you take into consideration, many encounters taking place over time, I do believe that experience can help raise charisma due to "learning" what works better to persuade others.

[tesral]

You need to watch the stat inflation. Yes, I tend to do it as well. One thing I do for my own standard is to consdier anything over 20 as "supernatural". Joe average is an 10-11. Good looking salesmen in the 12-13 range. Localk political, popyular people in the 14-15 range National politicans and pop stars as high as a 16-17. Only the most convincing and beautiful are in the 18-19 range. Beyond that is beyond mortal hope. You will not see it outsdie of a fantasy game.

Xena I would place in the 14-15 range keeping in mind that is is much better than average.

[kaibrightwing]

if i used my 31 level mage 2ed againist vodmore from harry potter my mage easily kill him. by using spell in 2ed i found taking him on was easy but with my firend and i that was how we figured it out the just me.

[cplmac]

Wow! I have never seen anyone get to level 20 as a mage let alone 31 in 2E.

[tesral]

if i used my 31 level mage 2ed againist vodmore from harry potter my mage easily kill him. by using spell in 2ed i found taking him on was easy but with my firend and i that was how we figured it out the just me.

As I've said, it's not a fair comparison. Different assumptions different systems.

One also has to question the build of Voldmort. Such a persistent and epic villain should not "easily" fall prey to anyone.

In my world a Voldmort class villain would have to be one of the ancient and feared Century Mages. The last such battle had the 15th plus level party in a battle that lasted the entire night, ended with a 135 die fireball bing volleyed back and forth between the Paladin and the Mage. The mage finally lost a save ad the thing went off.at 124 dice. The corner the castle was brought down and the party had to crawl through the ruins to escape.



Wow! I have never seen anyone get to level 20 as a mage let alone 31 in 2E.


It's possible, I've done it. You just have to be willing to play high level character and play them frequently. We used to have what we called "Unlimiteds" Wilderness crawls where characters of any level could come. We would haul out our hoary old favorites and tack another level on them. Ancient dragons, foul necromancers, all sorts of things came out of the woodwork when those characters came out.

[spotlight]

Those what get to lvl 31 in 2e has Monty for a dm.

[tesral]

Those what get to lvl 31 in 2e has Monty for a dm.

Then you don't know enough. Sometimes it simply requires that you play the character long enough.

As I recall some of those characters started as 0e character and were played well into late 1st edition. I don't think I have done an "unlimited" since 2e came out. Different group, different fun.

[Tony Misfeldt]

Then you don't know enough. Sometimes it simply requires that you play the character long enough.

As I recall some of those characters started as 0e character and were played well into late 1st edition. I don't think I have done an "unlimited" since 2e came out. Different group, different fun.
I never worked an actual PC past the early to mid teens in level. But with my old gaming group we were constantly switching DMs, and thus characters. The first thing you usually heard at one of our D&D games was "Alright! New adventure, new campaign, new characters! Everybody get out your character sheets and start rolling up your characters, we're starting at 1st level! Roll 4d6, drop the lowest, no rerolls!" Kinda tough to get beyond second or third level that way. Sometimes we were lucky and the DM would say "This is an adventure for characters of X level, pull out a favorite character of apropriate level please!" That's how all of my higher level characters got so high in level. Didn't happen very often though, which is why I've still got a binder full of barely used 2nd Ed PCs.

[spotlight]

Actually, I found that MOST players did not honestly reach those higher levels thru role-playing. In fact, I recall one of my first serious sessions as a DM was eclipsed by a player useing characters that were (1) a palidin and (2) a bard.

The bard in particular, was something else indeed. As the player expected to find all sorts of goodies, (treasure, majic items, etc.) I tended to oblige to some degree. I made sure musical instruments with the apropriate abilities were among the goodies to be found. What happened? The bard kept selling the useful things to 'get the gold' and continued to play the bard as a ranger. Made me wonder how he got his thief levels. Needless to say, he went elsewhere when his bard could not advance beyond forth level.

So those who claim to have advanced to extreme levels and want to play in a champaigne of my making? What's your previous GM's name and number. I am verifying this.

[tesral]

So those who claim to have advanced to extreme levels and want to play in a champaigne of my making? What's your previous GM's name and number. I am verifying this.

Why would I want to play a character of inappropriate level and background in your game? You will never see one of those character unless you play in my game and encounter them in their role as senior NPCs.

[spotlight]

Well, Tes, years ago, it was apparently common for folks to want to play a favorite character in other DM's worlds. Of course I learned from that experience. Either tone down the character to match the intended level of the champaigne or start a new character.

But you are correct, who really would want to play an inappropriate character. Especially in one of my champaigne worlds.