WEG Star Wars?

[Inquisitor Tremayne]

Anyone still play the West End Games version of the Star Wars RPG?

Or

Anyone adapted any adventures from WEG to Saga or Revised?

I am considering it.

[Digital Arcanist]

I bought another copy of 2nd ed WEG players guide because my first copy finally succumbed to all the use I give it.

I play in the expanded universe in the pre-Vong days but after Anakin Solo is born.

[Inquisitor Tremayne]

Awesome!

That sounds cool. Tell me more DA.

[amardolem]

neither, or none, but which do you recomend? "At last we shall reveal ourselves..... at last, we shall have revenge!" Big SW fan, big D&D player, but never the twain have met!

[Webhead]

Anyone still play the West End Games version of the Star Wars RPG?

Oh, absolutely. WEG's Star Wars RPG is my favorite RPG of all time. Still have all my old sourcebooks and my two copies of the corebook. It's been a couple years since my last campaign, but I'm feeling the urge to start one up again, so I imagine it won't be too much longer.

Anyone adapted any adventures from WEG to Saga or Revised?

I've run a short-lived campaign of the Star Wars d20 Revised edition, but in the strictest sense, I haven't really converted material from one to the other. There was some real cool material from the Star Wars Gamer magazine that is worth converting over to Star Wars D6 though...just haven't gotten around to it yet.

Star Wars d20 had some interesting features to it, but D6 serves my Star Wars needs better. I never liked the class-and-level-based structure of d20 for emulating Star Wars. And I like D6's combat, damage, and starship rules better. Oh, and the Dark Side rules need some serious tweaking in any of the d20 versions to grok with my established notions of how the Dark Side should behave.

[GBVenkman]

I still have some books my uncle would use when I was a small kid; I always though of going through "Tatooine Manhunt" for some material.

[Webhead]

I have fond memories of running Star Wars D6 adventures for my brother and his friends on the front porch of our apartment. We would lay a blanket down over the concrete so that our butts wouldn't hurt so much from sitting around there for hours on end (we didn't have a table that we could take outside so we played on the floor instead, not bothering with chairs). Thinking back, they probably weren't the most intricate or well-conceived adventures as I was still a young Game Master back then, but we sure had a hell of a lot of fun!

I miss that kind of free-wheeling play. I need to try to recapture that style somehow.

[Inquisitor Tremayne]

I have fond memories of running Star Wars D6 adventures for my brother and his friends on the front porch of our apartment. We would lay a blanket down over the concrete so that our butts wouldn't hurt so much from sitting around there for hours on end (we didn't have a table that we could take outside so we played on the floor instead, not bothering with chairs). Thinking back, they probably weren't the most intricate or well-conceived adventures as I was still a young Game Master back then, but we sure had a hell of a lot of fun!

I miss that kind of free-wheeling play. I need to try to recapture that style somehow.

Saga edition my friend, Saga edition.

Its great. It is detailed enough to cover a lot of things yet open enough to let the GM really adhoc what the players wish to do.

Case in point, most of the game I am running has had a Firefly type feel to it. The players are on the outskirts of the galaxy bopping around from one planet to the next adn you never know where or who they are going to run into next.

Loads of fun!

[Webhead]

Saga edition my friend, Saga edition.

Its great. It is detailed enough to cover a lot of things yet open enough to let the GM really adhoc what the players wish to do.

Case in point, most of the game I am running has had a Firefly type feel to it. The players are on the outskirts of the galaxy bopping around from one planet to the next adn you never know where or who they are going to run into next.

Loads of fun!

I just ran the intro to my first Star Wars Saga campaign this past weekend and it has potential. The system is definately a breath of relief from the previous two versions of d20 Star Wars. I have thus far found that it runs pretty smoothly. The flat probability curve of the d20 has been problematic for my players though, as I witnessed them fall victim to several terrible rolls that not even Force Points could save them from (that brings me to one observation about Saga: Force Points don't seem potent enough). Seriously, five rolls in a row were made where the d20 came up a "4" or less. Granted, no one died, but I could tell that it irked them more than a little.

It still can never replace Star Wars D6 for me, but for the time being it seems like it will be fun. I must admit, character creation and combat in Saga are very nicely lean and efficient. I've never seen another d20 game where I could walk four players through their first character creation in an hour. This included me explaining the differences between Saga and D&D 3.5.

I still miss running my Star Wars D6 though (see the "Campaign Invitation" board for proof of that ;))

[Inquisitor Tremayne]

(that brings me to one observation about Saga: Force Points don't seem potent enough).

That's what Destiny Points are for!!

Seriously, destiny points can quickly unbalance your game. Whatever you do, DO NOT put your BBEG up against your 4 players alone. If your 4 players have at least 1 destiny point, on each of their initiatives they can spend that DP to auto-crit the BBEG and potentially take them out in one round. Not Cool.

But my players tend to hoard their Force points and Destiny points so I kind of have to make situations to force them to use them. No pun intended.

One other "problem" you may find is that there are not rules to cover every single little thing a character could potentially do, so you as the GM are left to calling for skill checks or ability checks or simply adhoc-ing in general. But I don't have a problem with this and it allows me the ability to keep the game moving. Can't find the rule in the book, adhoc it!

[Webhead]

That's what Destiny Points are for!!

I have been undecided on my opinion of the Destiny Point rules at this stage. Thus, I let my players know that I'm not using Destiny Points yet, but I may add them in later after I've had time to decide if/how they are going to play a role in my campaign.

One other "problem" you may find is that there are not rules to cover every single little thing a character could potentially do, so you as the GM are left to calling for skill checks or ability checks or simply adhoc-ing in general. But I don't have a problem with this and it allows me the ability to keep the game moving. Can't find the rule in the book, adhoc it!

This actually harkens back to the style of play that got me into RPGs to begin with...thus I'm more in favor of this element than opposed to it. The game should give you enough insight into how things are done that you should feel confident and comfortable filling in the blanks with your own judgement.

That's how we played RPGs in the "golden days". When the rules for something weren't clear (or didn't exist), the GM got creative, had the players roll some dice and moved on! Any game that encourages this scores points with me.

[Inquisitor Tremayne]

This actually harkens back to the style of play that got me into RPGs to begin with...thus I'm more in favor of this element than opposed to it. The game should give you enough insight into how things are done that you should feel confident and comfortable filling in the blanks with your own judgement.

That's how we played RPGs in the "golden days". When the rules for something weren't clear (or didn't exist), the GM got creative, had the players roll some dice and moved on! Any game that encourages this scores points with me.

I concur. It avoids rule hang-ups that slow down the game and that is always a plus!

[Webhead]

I concur. It avoids rule hang-ups that slow down the game and that is always a plus!

I think this is one of the things that I've always admired about the Star Wars D6 RPG. Several times throughout the book, the authors remind you of the "golden rule of the Star Wars RPG": If you're stuck or not sure how to handle something, pick a difficulty number and have the players roll the most appropriate skill.

[Tamerath]

Personally, I loved the d6 version over any d20 version they have offered so far, and that was after playing for a year or so on d20 and having two wonderful campaigns with it. The d6 system really suited the star wars feel and, at least for me, added the cinamatic touch I was looking for with space flight rules and whatnot. I had a hard time recapturing it with the d20 system.

[Webhead]

Aye...I miss my Star Wars D6 games. Best RPG ever.

[Tamerath]

I just saw your profile Webhead. Star Wars d6 was my first run at GameMastering too! ahhh....good times

[Webhead]

I just saw your profile Webhead. Star Wars d6 was my first run at GameMastering too! ahhh....good times

Indeed. See the link below for a little more on Star Wars D6 as my gateway to role playing. Great fun and great memories!

http://www.penandpapergames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5298&page=4

[Inquisitor Tremayne]

You know, I am going to have to go back and break out my WEG books. I do remember the game being fun and fast paced and easy to learn, but I also remember the difficulties got out of hand rather quickly. And being a Jedi was the end all be all of characters.

Oh, nostalgia. Le sigh.

[Tamerath]

I found that the best d6 games in my group were with newer characters. Difficulties did get out of hand. Hehehe...my friend was using a Barabel Shockboxer-turned jedi and thought he'd always build up his dodge...got it up to 13D+2 and I couldn't touch him...with anything....so it can be exploited I think. I had the most fun with my jedi characters but I had a solid group of non-jedi interested players so it was pretty well balanced.

[Webhead]

...but I also remember the difficulties got out of hand rather quickly.

Do tell...

And being a Jedi was the end all be all of characters.

[The rant below is not directed at you, Tremayne, I just got my brain churning about what I've been hearing people say recently about Force Powers in D6 and I wanted to get some of my thoughts out on "paper".]

I often hear folks talk about how "unbalanced" they feel characters with Force power supposedly are in Star Wars D6, but I never really experienced this the way they make it sound.

Yes, characters with Force Skills are more "powerful" (meaning they have more options) than non-Force Sensitives, but it comes with its own costs. There's the substantial training time for starters and the expenditure of Character Points which non-Force Users will be spending on raising their skills. There's the fact that your teacher chooses which Force Powers to teach you. Then, each Force Skill you're using counts as an action in combat, increasing your Multiple Action Penalty and the powers generally have very specific uses. Then there's the whole "Jedi Code and Falling to the Dark Side" *thing*...

Example 1: You have to have at least 2D+1 in Sense before the [Lightsaber Combat] power even begins to benefit you. Activating and maintaining [Lightsaber Combat] requires both Control and Sense, which is two actions, then if you wish to attack with your lightsaber in a round, that is a third action for a -2D penalty to all actions. Subtract 2D from your 2D+1 Sense Skill and you are only left with the +1 bonus to your attack roll. Then, if you want to dodge/parry any attacks that come at you that round, that's additional penalties you have to take. So, it's not as powerful as it sounds until you get to a higher level of your skill.

Example 2: [Absorb/Dissipate Energy] is an "all-or-nothing" effect. Either you absorb the damage or you fail and take full damage. With a regular blaster pistol doing 4D damage, you'd have to have at least 4D in Control to have fair odds at absorbing a blaster bolt, assuming you have taken no other actions that round. Attacking a stormtrooper and then trying to [Absorb/Dissipate] blaster fire in the same round is two actions (-1D to all Skills), so in such a case, you'd only roll 3D to absorb against the blaster's 4D damage roll...possible, but not likely.

Sorry for the rant...I just don't think Force Skills in D6 are anywhere near as overpowered as some people seem to suggest. I really only see them becoming an issue when you have GMs who are easy and loose with letting players learn Force Skills and powers or have games that allow characters to develop their Force Skills into higher dice ranges in excess of about 7D or so. At that point, you're approaching Vader or Obi-Wan power levels anyway.

[Webhead]

Hehehe...my friend was using a Barabel Shockboxer-turned jedi and thought he'd always build up his dodge...got it up to 13D+2 and I couldn't touch him...with anything...

Have someone attack him with Melee Weapons or Brawling. That's why Star Wars D6 included 3 different defense skills. Dodge only works against ranged attacks, Brawling Parry is used against Brawling, and Melee Parry is used against Melee Weapons. If he wants to be Mr. Super-Defense, he has to split his Character Points between three skills, not just one.

Just an observation. I've had "Captain Dodge" characters in my games on occasion too. I had to remind them that Dodge is not a catch-all skill.

[Inquisitor Tremayne]

Do tell...I really only see them becoming an issue when you have GMs who are easy and loose with letting players learn Force Skills and powers or have games that allow characters to develop their Force Skills into higher dice ranges in excess of about 7D or so. At that point, you're approaching Vader or Obi-Wan power levels anyway.

that was the redeeming quality was that the GM had control over these things much more than one does over the resources available in d20.

However, problems did arise when you had "high-level" games, when skills were pushing 7D+. Beyond that point you ran into the same problem the RCR had, high level Jedi are nigh-unstoppable. Restricting the powers and abilities that are available to the players I was never really that comfortable with. If a player expressed interest in gaining x power then I felt it my duty as a GM to supply them with it.

So I do agree that while lower level games were not so bad, any high levels games were pretty one sided as far as Jedi were concerned.

I wish I could remember details to back my case but I don't remember too much from those games back then. Same with my 2nd edition D&D games. C.R.S.!!

[Tamerath]

Have someone attack him with Melee Weapons or Brawling. That's why Star Wars D6 included 3 different defense skills. Dodge only works against ranged attacks, Brawling Parry is used against Brawling, and Melee Parry is used against Melee Weapons. If he wants to be Mr. Super-Defense, he has to split his Character Points between three skills, not just one.

CRAP! I totally forgot about that in my games...granted there was a lot of blaster fire...lol...I was young. Thanks for reminding me lol

[Webhead]

that was the redeeming quality was that the GM had control over these things much more than one does over the resources available in d20.

I very much agree. For some reason I have yet to put my finger on, it seems like any version of d20 Star Wars is a little trickier to "reign the players in" and keep them from just cherry-picking the powers they want and ignoring anything they deem "frivolous".

However, problems did arise when you had "high-level" games, when skills were pushing 7D+. Beyond that point you ran into the same problem the RCR had, high level Jedi are nigh-unstoppable.

I agree to this to an extent. Any character (Force User or not) with skill levels that approach the 8D range or so start to really show how terrifyingly good they are. Force Skills at this level can be very potent in the right hands, but Force Powers still can't solve every situation. Besides, it would take a long campaign to reach that level in Force Skills, so the game is probably becoming rather epic by that point.

Restricting the powers and abilities that are available to the players I was never really that comfortable with. If a player expressed interest in gaining x power then I felt it my duty as a GM to supply them with it.

I've always tried to take a "fair but firm" stance on this issue. Force Users may let me know that they are interested in powers X, Y and Z. I will put that in the back of my mind as a goal that they are working toward and try to help them on the path to gaining those things while making them aware that the rewards will come with good effort. If you tell me you want to have [Lightsaber Combat], I have no objection to that but, just as a responsible teacher would, that isn't going to be the very first power you get. The Force User needs to build a basic foundation and the teacher needs to be sure that the student is responsible and stable enough to handle his powers without abusing them (the student's actions are the responsibility of the teacher).

So I do agree that while lower level games were not so bad, any high levels games were pretty one sided as far as Jedi were concerned.

I've witnessed a few instances of Jedi-heinousness. I think it really falls upon the GM (and also the sensibilities of the player) to maintain the game's integrity...but I think that's true of any RPG I've run. There's always that one player that tries to take things too far. Be it D&D, Cyberpunk (ugh!), Shadowrun (double ugh!), Mutants & Masterminds, Vampire, Star Wars, etc.

CRAP! I totally forgot about that in my games...granted there was a lot of blaster fire...lol...I was young. Thanks for reminding me lol

Yeah, I had some thugs take a swing at one of my PCs once and I told him, "Okay, roll your Brawling Parry". He looked at me and said, "You mean Dodge, right?". Needless to say, he hadn't put any dice in Brawling Parry, so he just had to roll his Dexterity. I think many folks forget about the distinction. Good to keep in mind for the future though. :)

[Tamerath]

Hmmm...I was thinking lately about doing a WEG Star Wars RPG in the "Legacy" Star Wars era. Maybe when Force Unleashed comes out later this year I can steal some ideas from it as well.

[Holocron]

I may have said it elsewhere, but I don't know if I could seriously play star wars in a non D6 system... I'm pretty thoroughly involved in a long standing campaign that's been D6 for about 15 years though...

There are some quirks with the system as has been mentioned that you need to be aware of though. Indeed, if players focus their points into certain skills, they are bound to become extremely powerful in that area. A barabel shockboxer with dodge at 13D+2 is pretty formidable, almost impossible to hit with blasters, and tough against melee combat as well. No match for a well trained jedi with a lightsaber though... so the part about jedi being unbeatable is sort of true in the context of jedi vs non-jedi once the jedi reaches a certain level of proficiency.

As was stated though, jedi will be weak when initially created, so they'll have to play for a long time to build up all their critical skills, lightsaber, melee parry, control, sense, alter... maybe others...

Indeed, in WEG starwars, there's almost always a vulnerability you can exploit... even against jedi. One of my players has become an extremely powerful jedi, saber and melee parry at 10D+, and force skills around 10D... he's basically immune to being hit by blasters, and logically he should be more powerful than most other force users he encounters, so even dark jedi can't reliably beat him. However... for characters with strong personal defense abilities... there's always the times when they're travelling, on ships in space... their ship could be ambushed, and if they've been focusing on lightsaber and force skills, they're probably weak on ship piloting and gunnary... so you could put their life in danger that way... my player has a pretty supe'd up ship, and has investing heavily in piloting skill, so he can usually at least escape pretty reliably.

So... I've developed other methods of challenging him. Blasters set to stun shoot a blue stun ring, like we see Leia get hit by in episode 4 right? The area of effect is too big to be blocked by a lightsaber, so he's still vulnerable to stun attacks, and there's also larger area of effect stunners out there. He's also still vulnerable to fire damage, because fire doesn't have consistant "shape" it can't be blocked by a lightsaber right? Or a spray of napalm like substance?? So now realizing this after I've used it on him a few times, my player has started increasing his dodge too.

Still however, things like grenades and thermal detonators are even larger area of effect, and he probably wont' be able to dodge completely out of the blast radius, so there's potential for at least some damage from grenades or other blast type damage.

Then... I've introduced an arch villain... dark side force user on par with the player's level of power... The first battle was a clear loss for the player, but he escaped. But there's rematches possible...

Finally... there's the moral battle against the dark side. My player has managed to get 1 darkside point, and since his character has gotten sooo powerful in a span of time of only about 3 years game time, his character is now susceptible to the dark side, so he has to think really hard about how to avoid any more dark side points, and how to get rid of the one he has. Since he won't use the dark side, the one dark side point he has is giving him a penalty to his force skills.

I don't really believe in limiting my players' characters' potential to grow, but I have emplaced a few house rules to slow down the growth and interject some make sense factor...

First, at my player's elite level of skill, he has gotten so good at lightsaber fighting and the force, that anyone he had as a teacher can no longer teach him anymore, so he would have to pay double ps to increase force skills, and I've ruled that his lightsaber skill is so high, that he can't really improve just by training, and actually, he has to invest enough time to train just to maintain his current level of skill. The only way to improve without paying double points is to go against someone of even greater power. This is dangerous, because your skills will be weaker than the new arch villain