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Webhead
06-13-2008, 01:53 PM
Agreed. The adventure of the unknown and unexpected is a better part of the fun of an RPG. It is for this reason that I've either a) kept monster stats away from players until after they have defeated them or failing that b) changed some basic aspects of the monster to surprise the players when it doesn't "behave as expected".

Most players tend to assume that monsters are evil and that their motivation is to kill or otherwise annoy the PCs. They tend to get thrown for a loop when they discover a monster that has intelligence and purpose beyond the current encounter.

Engar
06-13-2008, 02:16 PM
yup

Farcaster
06-14-2008, 02:21 PM
I am discouraged by the fact that 4e discourages one from building a cohesive world...I'm not going there.

I'm not sure I understand how 4th edition discourages world building. As with previous editions, it comes with a predefined set of gods and an assumption of a particular mythos, but there is nothing that prevents you from using whatever background and story you want.


Randomized HP is a punishment that DM's inflict on their players...4ed fixed all that.

Personally, I'm not completely sold on the idea of average hitpoints all around. I not opposed to it, but I don't know that it would be my preference. I would say that there is a disparagy if you are making the character's roll, but always using average hitpoints (or better) from the monster manual. In my games, I typically roll for the monsters too. Sometimes, the players may actually fight a high CR monster with much lower than average hit points. It happens, and it balances things out.

I also keep track of character hitpoints myself. The players have no idea what their hit points are. I just use descriptive language when describing the action. So, what they know for sure is that the warlock and bard are squishy, the dwarven cleric is rather hearty, and the dwarven fighter/barbarian is the rock of Gibraltar. Honestly, every group I have ever used this system with resisted a little at first, but ultimately didn't want to have it any other way.

Engar
06-15-2008, 12:09 AM
I will definitely not be switching (to address the original question). I like some stuff and disliked some, but when I got to classes...ugh. I think I am going back to 2nd ed. I liked DnD back then. I have tons of good memories. I can always steal everything I want from 3.x and even from other completely unrelated books like 4e.

Maybe I fear change. Maybe the game has passed me by. Maybe all the lists and lists and lists of unfamiliar stuff has intimidated the begesus out of me. Seldom have a I opened a gaming book, read though page by page, and not found something to entice me. And what is with a total lack of short stories / comics / exerpts / quips / antecdotes / whatever... Sheesh, even my stinking old Biology textbooks had an icebreaker or two to keep me awake. 4e actually seems to bore me. Since I do not think I have ever been bored by a roleplaying book before and certainly not a DnD book, this is obviously not a DnD book and I suspect it is not even for roleplaying. Therefore, 4e must be a statistics textbook.

agoraderek
06-15-2008, 12:59 AM
i think, from reading the posts, we have system mavens (people who enjoy rules refinements and whatnot, lots of people comparing 4e to saga, for instance) and flavor mavens (people who see D&D as a flavor, and dont like the "taste" of 4e, 3x, stopped at 2e considering it "real" d&d, whatever...)

for me, i guess it doesnt really matter what edition it is, since i have a campaign world already, and no rules changes are goin gto make me start having lizards as pcs, make me stop having barbarians, or having characters roll hit points. the game i play is an amalgam of everything ive done since 1979 anyway.

so, im not going to be giving WotC any money this time around, i dont see the point in it. now, if someone happens to buy me a player's handbook for christmas or something (yes, the gf is reading over my shoulder) i wouldnt be put out...

RivenNookRavenClaw
06-15-2008, 01:34 AM
I boughts them, I boughts them...they are my precious "Golem Voice"...I am reading them now. I wanna set up my own game soon.

Rules...show up on time...I will provide food...no drugs...alcohol is OK, you can talk about your life but no HATERS.

Man do you guys get "The Onion" Newspaper out in the West Coast? I love reading the op-ed column called "The Hater." That woman, whoever she is, can dish out HATE like there is no tomorrow.

I love it, its a great relief to me anyway to have a woman in her prime talk weekly about how this week she hates "Sex in the City"...next week she hates another fashion trend and the woman does not stop.

BUT...I hate haters around a gaming table...I mean some white people really need to hate black people. I am not one of them and I hate hearing their nasty two cent jokes on the topic. It is just unpleasant.

Anyway....I upgraded...I upgraded...nah nah na nah na! (nine year old taunt)

tesral
06-15-2008, 01:40 AM
Anyway....I upgraded...I upgraded

You changed. "Upgrade" is debatable.

No i have no use for hating people. Most people don't know what hate is.

RivenNookRavenClaw
06-15-2008, 02:04 AM
You changed. "Upgrade" is debatable.

No i have no use for hating people. Most people don't know what hate is.


Really?

I know what hate is. I have hated people fiercely and said nothing. I have hated ideas, beliefs, intolerance, exploitation of women friends of my by men and male friends of mine by women.

I have really hated things in my life and I have no use for it in myself. These days I just deal with my anger differently.

tesral
06-15-2008, 02:20 AM
Really?


Really, another thread would be best. Hate, real hate is so black I don't even like the word.

Digital Arcanist
06-15-2008, 02:56 AM
Well I have a house rule for everyone that WILL be followed and it is as follows:

DO NOT USE PROFANITY ON THESE BOARDS!!!

This is the second time I have had to say this. Farcaster has taken the time to create a policy that allows everyone to share their opinion while at the same time creating a family-oriented environment. Dropping an S-bomb is not part of that policy. If you have questions regarding what type of language is prohibited then ask a moderator or consult the posting policy BEFORE you use it. With the tens of thousands of words in the English language their are plenty of alternatives to profanity.

As far as "manning up" goes, I suggest that we all reconnect our hands to our brains and think before we type. This is a board inhabited by both men and women and we need to be conscious of the possibility of offensive language.

Reinforcing fmitchell's earlier warning, personal attacks are strictly prohibited and are grounds for temporary bans. We can all disagree but we must respect each other's differing opinions rather than slinging mud.

Valdar
06-15-2008, 04:09 PM
Farcaster has taken the time to create a policy that allows everyone to share their opinion while at the same time creating a family-oriented environment.

Lame question of me, but can you link to the code of conduct for this board? I looked around for it in reference to a discussion about the legality of using pirate game PDFs, but I couldn't find anything explicit about this or the profanity issue.

Farcaster
06-15-2008, 04:42 PM
The forum rules are posted here: 3415. They don't explicitly say anything about posting copyrighted material, but they do talk about posting innapropriate content.

RivenNookRavenClaw
06-15-2008, 05:45 PM
Well I have a house rule for everyone that WILL be followed and it is as follows:

DO NOT USE PROFANITY ON THESE BOARDS!!!

This is the second time I have had to say this. Farcaster has taken the time to create a policy that allows everyone to share their opinion while at the same time creating a family-oriented environment. Dropping an S-bomb is not part of that policy. If you have questions regarding what type of language is prohibited then ask a moderator or consult the posting policy BEFORE you use it. With the tens of thousands of words in the English language their are plenty of alternatives to profanity.

As far as "manning up" goes, I suggest that we all reconnect our hands to our brains and think before we type. This is a board inhabited by both men and women and we need to be conscious of the possibility of offensive language.

Reinforcing fmitchell's earlier warning, personal attacks are strictly prohibited and are grounds for temporary bans. We can all disagree but we must respect each other's differing opinions rather than slinging mud.

What are you talking about? My verbal score on the GRE, Grade uate Record Exam is in the 99 percentile.

I can insult anything I want without one word of so called profanity in ways that would make lawyers scream at me via email only they don't call it that. They call it hitting me with IRACs and Complaints.

Now I thank you I will not have another little espsidoe where somebody hits an a little icon and says they do not like what I say because it is 'family oriented'.

Thank you no thanks.

I suggest you and Farcaster and get together on a very simple code switch. I have accurately reported my age now I want the ability to make it so nobody under 18 can see my posts.

I am serious. You just offended ME.

This is fathers day and I want to be a father...I have worked ALL my life and I know how to raise children. I taught in the New York City public school system 12 year olds to 21 year olds. I have also subbed middle school.

What pray tell is this so called profanity of yours?

Am I am dead serious...I want no mealy mouthed language. It is quite obvious to anybody that has EVER looked at Farcasters biography, his tech skills and his team that he can copy and paste the code so that nobody that reports their age accurately will ever seen any of my posts but I'll be sent to perdition before I waste my time on a board that sees fix to lock out all my posts because some people think they ain't family oriented.

And I ain't kidding. Please elaborate your comment in a more verbose fashion explicating in detail exactly what you mean, family guy.

Maelstrom
06-15-2008, 06:50 PM
*sniff sniff* Anyone else smell a troll?

Farcaster
06-15-2008, 07:11 PM
This is a public forum. Anyone can read what you write here without logging in at all. As far as members go, we do require anyone registering to be at least 13 years old in compliance with COPPA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COPPA). At this point though, we are not requiring members to be at least 18 to register. Nor do I think it is too much to ask that members conduct themselves with a modicum of self-control when posting here. First, it promotes an atmosphere of respect and second it just isn't needed to get your point across.

Now, I'm not actually concerned if someone uses something fairly benign like "shit roll." It is a miscommunication on my part with the moderators if anyone thinks that is on my radar. However, it is a fine line. If your not sure if something is appropriate or not, just don't use it and find another way to express yourself. If you feel that you can't control yourself, then perhaps this isn't the right forum for you.

Engar
06-15-2008, 08:19 PM
LOL. When I posted http://www.penandpapergames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6520 it was like foreshadowing...

Riven, Happy Fathers Day! I get the righteous indignation, now have a beer. I'd buy you one if you were not 1,386 miles away!

agoraderek
06-18-2008, 01:08 AM
You changed. "Upgrade" is debatable.

yep, no "upgrading" just starting over.

Tony Misfeldt
06-25-2008, 09:03 PM
Now, I'm not actually concerned if someone uses something fairly benign like "shit roll." It is a miscommunication on my part with the moderators if anyone thinks that is on my radar.

Funny you should say that after giving me such a hard time for using the term "Art Whore". Personally, I see "Art Whore" as a far more benign term than "shit roll" (hey, you opened the door on this discussion, I'm just walking through it). Words evolve and change over time. Often times words with benign meanings become crude and vulgar terms. Donkey (ass), female dog (*****), cigarette (fag), a bundle of firewood (******), and rooster (cock) are all examples. You might still consider the word "ass" to be rather benign. It's still not a very complimentary thing to call someone, but I'd hardly call it vulgar. Put the word "hole" behind it though, and you've got yourself a completely different animal. And that is vulgar. With the term "Art Whore" I've simply done the same thing but in reverse. W-H-O-R-E on it's own is a very vulgar term, and should I choose to use it as is I would censore myself by replacing it with the more benign tern *promiscuous person* (the * indicates I'm censoring myself). Or with other words I replace key letters with symbols (like s#!t for example). But the phrase "Art Whore" changes the words deffinition from something vulgar to something benign by adding the word "art" to the front of it. Just as "ass" is changed from being a donkey to being something very vulgar by putting "hole" behind it. In this case an Art Whore is someone who prefers ROLE playing to ROLL playing, and in my opinion is a compliment.

Sort of off topic as to what this thread is supposed to be about, but I wanted to get my 2 cents in.

Grimwell
06-25-2008, 10:59 PM
It's not wise to mince words about moderation with the guy who wears the admin hat. Even if you have two cents to get in... tis dangerous. ;P

Farcaster
06-26-2008, 02:31 AM
Funny you should say that after giving me such a hard time for using the term "Art Whore". Personally, I see "Art Whore" as a far more benign term than "shit roll" (hey, you opened the door on this discussion, I'm just walking through it).

Touché. But, to be honest, more than one person found those terms you used to be offensive and brought it up to me. And that term you are using is directed toward an entire segment of the P&PG community and does not sound very complimentary. That is why I cautioned you on its use.

tesral
06-26-2008, 03:11 AM
Touché. But, to be honest, more than one person found those terms you used to be offensive and brought it up to me. And that term you are using is directed toward an entire segment of the P&PG community and does not sound very complimentary. That is why I cautioned you on its use.

A good rule is: Don't offend, and don't be easily offended. I would say from my experience that you had several easily offended people. I do not find the term offensive. But I'm not easily offended either.

I frankly would that people swear honestly rather than resort to the upper row upper case. Swear honestly, and infrequently. Strong words loose their impact if frequently used.

boulet
06-26-2008, 08:38 AM
I hear you, chicken pluckers.

I always found amusing how words are bleeped in American media , and how arbitrary it is. For instance, the female dog (b****), which is very derogative and usually aimed at women, isn't bleeped whereas the f word which isn't insulting anyone specifically, and depicts a natural body function, is systematically censored (even on a program aired later than midnight sometimes, go figure).

On the other hand I come from a country where vulgarity is a toy we play with for the sheer enjoyement of provocation. I'll always remember Serge Gainsbourg shocking the crap out of Whitney Houston in a popular TV show. The embarrassment of both Whitney and the show host was priceless

Grimwell
06-27-2008, 02:19 AM
A good rule is: Don't offend, and don't be easily offended. I would say from my experience that you had several easily offended people. I do not find the term offensive. But I'm not easily offended either.

Another good rule is: Listen to the site admin when he tells you that you are crossing the line for many folks.

Forums like these are communities, and communities are compromise by their inherent natures. You not being offended by your words is natural -- or you wouldn't use them; that does not mean that others should suck it up because it meets your standards.

At the end of the day, Farcaster gets final arbitration duties, and if we are to be productive members of this community, we need to respect that and back down when informed that we are crossing lines.

Mead
06-27-2008, 10:40 AM
I'm waiting for two things - DDI (to play with my college friends who nearly all went to NC), and a new printing with better quality ink and paper. Preferably an errata printing.

Amazon actually ended up doing me a favor by spitting in my face regarding the pre-order fiasco.

ryan973
06-27-2008, 10:51 AM
Another good rule is: Listen to the site admin when he tells you that you are crossing the line for many folks.

Forums like these are communities, and communities are compromise by their inherent natures. You not being offended by your words is natural -- or you wouldn't use them; that does not mean that others should suck it up because it meets your standards.

At the end of the day, Farcaster gets final arbitration duties, and if we are to be productive members of this community, we need to respect that and back down when informed that we are crossing lines.


Man i miss the days when grown ups could suck it up and not whine about everything being PC. The real world is not alwase polite and perfect and sometimes someone is going to say something that you dont like. I do agree that this is Farcasters deal and if you want to use it then you need to follow his rules. But he seems to have no trouble letting people know that, and probably does not need so many teachers pets making things worse by adding in there two cents to his rulings. Trying to help is one thing but having more than one persone jumping on you about the sme offence just breeds resentment. Even if there using a polite tone.

Inquisitor Tremayne
06-27-2008, 02:50 PM
Man i miss the days when grown ups could suck it up and not whine about everything being PC. The real world is not alwase polite and perfect and sometimes someone is going to say something that you dont like. I do agree that this is Farcasters deal and if you want to use it then you need to follow his rules. But he seems to have no trouble letting people know that, and probably does not need so many teachers pets making things worse by adding in there two cents to his rulings. Trying to help is one thing but having more than one persone jumping on you about the sme offence just breeds resentment. Even if there using a polite tone.

MY job as a moderator is to make sure that everyone enjoys their time here at penandpapergames.com. If someone is offended by the statement(s) of another or I find issue with a post/thread/statement/etc... it is my duty to step in make sure things stay on an even keel and everyone can enjoy themselves.

Now, to be more specific Farcaster said:


Now, I'm not actually concerned if someone uses something fairly benign like "@#!* roll." It is a miscommunication on my part with the moderators if anyone thinks that is on my radar.

So to be fair, save your criticism of Farcaster for doing his job and running damage control when it was a moderator that jumped the gun on an issue that Farcaster (us moderator's employer) deemed a minor issue.

And please, if you have any issue with anyone in particular I suggest that you send the person in question, a moderator, or Farcaster a PM to discuss the issue in private.

Thank you

And now to get back on topic!

As soon as DDI comes on I will be DMing a 4e game and I am very excited about it!

And I have had more thoughts about importing elements of 4e into 3.5 but I fear I might be simply making 4e all over again...

wbrandel
06-27-2008, 04:44 PM
I have got the books and plan on running a 4E game when the current campaign in 3.5 is done. I still don't agree with the spell system but it does offer a little more flexibility than the prior systems (from D&D).

Xaels Greyshadow
06-27-2008, 05:59 PM
Hi all. Just stopping by. Last time I logged in, I was sick. Sick of reading the rantings from someone with a stay at home job, nothing better to do than read forums and make post after post about games and systems they had absolutely no practical application or experience. The great shearing that was about to occur with WoTC and 4E. Nothing has changed. I thought this forum was supposed to be about updating to 4E, but I have found that someone must have hurt some sissies feeling with a harsh word and we have all decided to kick and fornicate the issue while the dog has long since died. For my two cents, I have looked at 4E books and found them to be impressive. Maybe going to make a purchase of the DMG and PH this weekend. I finally completed my library and feel happy that I succeeded in aquiring the entire HB 3.5 ruleset, 3.0 pertinent books and all errata from WoTC before support ended so abruptly. Wish I could find a game. Hi Farcaster, hope life is treating you well, send me an email sometime.

Tony Misfeldt
07-09-2008, 09:19 PM
Touché. But, to be honest, more than one person found those terms you used to be offensive and brought it up to me. And that term you are using is directed toward an entire segment of the P&PG community and does not sound very complimentary. That is why I cautioned you on its use.

Just so you know, the website I learned the term "Art Whore" from was so PC that it would censore the word "Cockatrice" (which just about every D&D player of all ages has either heard of or read about) by changing it to "*Rooster*atrice". Seems funny to me that they felt "Cockatrice" needed to be censored but "Art Whore" didn't, but you guys are just the opposite. Just food for thought.

ithil
07-10-2008, 12:36 AM
Seems funny to me that they felt "Cockatrice" needed to be censored but "Art Whore" didn't

PHP scripts feel the darndest things.

tesral
07-10-2008, 01:12 AM
PHP scripts feel the darndest things.

Filter software suckith mightily

Greylond
07-10-2008, 01:22 AM
I "upgraded" to 4th Edition years ago. HackMaster 4th Edition that is...:D

And that's not as much of a bad joke as you'd think since many HM fans consider HM 4th Ed to be what the Next Version of 1st/2nd Edition should have been...

Xandros
07-10-2008, 04:05 AM
Well, I checked out 4th edition and saw nothing that I can use. I have no desire to buy anything 4th edition. So those that stated that anyone who bought lots of 3.+ edition stuff would buy all 4th edition stuff no matter what, are wrong so far. But I have gotten a lot of 3rd+ edition stuff really cheap.

tesral
07-10-2008, 11:59 AM
Well, I checked out 4th edition and saw nothing that I can use. I have no desire to buy anything 4th edition. So those that stated that anyone who bought lots of 3.+ edition stuff would buy all 4th edition stuff no matter what, are wrong so far. But I have gotten a lot of 3rd+ edition stuff really cheap.

I've been buying the used 3.x book here and there. Still have no Forry.

Mead
07-10-2008, 12:31 PM
Filter software suckith mightily

hecko!

Agreed, in every cirbody fluidstance I've ever seen, forum filters are just downright terrible.

(The one for WWII Online was really friggin bad, as you can see)

tesral
07-10-2008, 02:21 PM
hecko!

Agreed, in every cirbody fluidstance I've ever seen, forum filters are just downright terrible.

(The one for WWII Online was really friggin bad, as you can see)

I can see asking someone that cannot use plain English to clean up, but filters punish without thought.

Mead
07-10-2008, 03:04 PM
I can see asking someone that cannot use plain English to clean up, but filters punish without thought.

That particular forum filter was more entertaining than annoying, but I'm not sorry to see it gone.

It did get a bit tiresome when we were trying to talk about captured historical dobody fluidments and shell penetration details for various armor racial slurs (slopes). Oh, and also chickenpit instrumentation.

Hecko was by far the silliest.

Tony Misfeldt
07-11-2008, 03:44 PM
Okay, to get back on topic...

I haven't read any 4th Edition material yet, all I know about 4th Ed I read on this site, but from what I've seen and heard so far there's really nothing in 4th Ed that I would want to adopt in my Hybrid game. Therefore I doubt I'll be buying any 4th Edition merchandise. One of my old gaming buddies is giving me his old 3.5 DMG and MM for free though, because he is switching to 4th Ed. Not that I'd use them that much, I just want to convert the old Monster XP Kill Point Value system to the Challenge Rating System.

ryan973
07-11-2008, 04:30 PM
Ok i personally own 4th and i have to say out of the 15 or 20 diffrent gameing systems that i both own and have played in all honesty that 4th is the worst. Thats after having played it twice now.

But i definetly would not just get my info on the bourds. those of us who hate wont do it any sort of justice and have a tendancy to exagerate its short comeings and those who defend it seem to contradict any point they make in its favor with there own argument.

In my opinion its a game for people who did not like DnD in the first place. But i still would tell anyone to borrow a copy of a freand and check it out. you may liek it. I have a freand who was very into Mechwarrior and he was really excited to play it. He prefers bourd and mini games. He did not liek after trying it but there have been a few people at my local gaming store who say they really like it. and they dotn usually liek anything but star wars minis. tehy thinks its the best DnD ever.



All the above opinions are just my personell veiw. I dont want to insult anyone or start anything. So let me just acknowledge that i know i am wrong. mainly becouse how can oen persone ever truly be right about anything.

Engar
07-11-2008, 07:26 PM
I recommend rereading that post and possibly editing it. It comes across rather badly and a correction may help with finding a game.


Hi all. Just stopping by. Last time I logged in, I was sick....

Mead
07-13-2008, 03:51 PM
Well, I caved. 4e set is on the way from B&N (to hell with Amazon). Nice thing is, if I lose the quality lottery, I can just bust em down to the local brick&mortar B&N and get a refund.

tesral
07-14-2008, 12:47 AM
Well, I caved. 4e set is on the way from B&N (to hell with Amazon). Nice thing is, if I lose the quality lottery, I can just bust em down to the local brick&mortar B&N and get a refund.

Not defending Amazon over B&N, but they do refunds, and even give you the label and everything for a return. You do have to take the package to the Post Offal.

Mead
07-14-2008, 07:52 AM
Not defending Amazon over B&N, but they do refunds, and even give you the label and everything for a return. You do have to take the package to the Post Offal.

In the interest of fairness, I didn't mean to imply that Amazon doesn't do refunds or makes it harder to do them. I'm sure that if they ever frickin manage to send you anything, you can reject it with all speed. That's not why I refuse to do business with them any more.

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
07-23-2008, 03:12 AM
My books are on backorder(being mailed today... finally) and i hear that WOTC has already released updates. WTF!?

Thoth-Amon

tesral
07-23-2008, 07:28 AM
My books are on backorder(being mailed today... finally) and i hear that WOTC has already released updates. WTF!?

Thoth-Amon

Holes in the perfect rules.

Webhead
07-23-2008, 12:19 PM
Holes in the perfect rules.

That's one thing I like about Green Ronin (at least, with regards to their Mutants & Masterminds line). When they publish later printings of their books, they are re-edited to fix all typos, clarifications and errata that were discovered from earlier printings.

They just recently announced that they sold out the 3rd printing of the M&M corebook and that the 4th printing will be out next month. They clarified that all current items on their errata list (even the 5 or 6 items that slipped past them on the 3rd printing) will be fixed in the newest printing. This way, late-comers to the game don't have to deal with searching the web for the most up-to-date errata and then figure out how to keep track of it at the table. I will probably end up selling off my 1st printing M&M corebook (the corner was chewed by the dog anyway) and picking up the 4th...because I'm a geek like that...;)

tesral
07-23-2008, 12:50 PM
Yea we have these things called "computers" now that make editing and layout really easy.

In the pro documents with many eyes on the pages I do expect zero typos. Our right flubbes and broken rules are one thing, but misspellings and bad grammar cannot be forgiven.

Webhead
07-23-2008, 01:45 PM
Yea we have these things called "computers" now that make editing and layout really easy...

And yet, even today many prominent game publishers *cough*Wizards*cough* show little desire to "fix" errors in their hardcopy publications beyond drafting a digital "errata document" and posting it online.

Oh wait, now that I think about it, there was one such attempt...I believe it was called "3.5". ;)

agoraderek
07-23-2008, 06:53 PM
And yet, even today many prominent game publishers *cough*Wizards*cough* show little desire to "fix" errors in their hardcopy publications beyond drafting a digital "errata document" and posting it online.

Oh wait, now that I think about it, there was one such attempt...I believe it was called "3.5". ;)

yep, almost 900 pages worth of errata, only cost $90 + tax...

ryan973
07-24-2008, 01:32 PM
wow i gotta say that got to me at the time. I dotn care now but i was really peeved for about a week. Not sure how long fourth has been out but i am still kinda peeved about that. But i am hoping that hasbro dumps DnD And wizards sticks to what they do best making CCGs with little imagiantion and 20 cards to a series that get labeled as broken and not allowed in turnament play. The mabie soem real gamers like say Paizo can pick up the mantle and run with it.

Webhead
07-24-2008, 01:46 PM
Oh, on a (somewhat tangentially) related note, Green Ronin has announced several months back that they are in the works on a "sword-and-sorcery" supplement book for their Mutants & Masterminds RPG. I'll have to check into it further and I don't recall the proposed name of the book (Green Ronin's site is blocked at work) but the more I think about it, the more likely I'll end up going that route to satisfy my "fantasy RPG" needs. Time will tell, of course.

Perhaps I can finally run my Battlechasers inspired campaign with that book...

agoraderek
07-24-2008, 02:08 PM
Oh, on a (somewhat tangentially) related note, Green Ronin has announced several months back that they are in the works on a "sword-and-sorcery" supplement book for their Mutants & Masterminds RPG. I'll have to check into it further and I don't recall the proposed name of the book (Green Ronin's site is blocked at work) but the more I think about it, the more likely I'll end up going that route to satisfy my "fantasy RPG" needs. Time will tell, of course.

Perhaps I can finally run my Battlechasers inspired campaign with that book...

i think the new gsl and 4e may bring us back to the glory days of the 80s when you could chose from several "flavors". maybe WotC did us all a favor by having an OGL for eight years, then yanking it away with the gsl, it let us see who could produce quality product without having to play different systems, and now we already know who makes good stuff (green ronin, paizo, malhavoc, etc) so we can be reasonably certain future product will be worthwhile, even though it no longer supports "canon" d&d...

Webhead
07-24-2008, 02:17 PM
Could very well be the case. WotC with the OGL helped usher in a number of game publishers who got their kickstart making d20 supplements and spun off their own games from that, building a fanbase along the way. Now with the "lumbering giant" MIA, those companies can focus more on their internal properties and servicing the fanbases for those. I know Green Ronin made me a fan with M&M and as long as they continue to publish quality material for that line, I'll be counting myself among their customers.

I haven't bought enough from Paizo to consider myself a "fan", but I definately see and appreciate the dedication to making quality products that they seem to have.

Valdar
07-24-2008, 08:23 PM
Stumbled across this (http://mearls.livejournal.com/151714.html)
recently- it's Mearls' take on the history of the OGL, and why they took the tack they did with the GSL...

Engar
07-24-2008, 09:48 PM
Funny that Paizo is doing exactly that now.

ryan973
07-25-2008, 08:41 AM
Sounded like bull to me. Of course this is the same guy from the podcasts who trips all over himself every time he tries to make a point.

This is nothing but a screen to cover the fundamental reasone for the new policys. I think they realized that alot of other companys can do it better than them and they dont want to have compitition.

frankly they cant afford to compete right now. They have lost almost half of the base. sure there gonna get some new people with this huge amount of advetrtising. but those guys are not the ones who spend the big bucks and the new demographic dont have the disposable income to make up for the loss.

bltzkrg242
08-03-2008, 03:44 PM
We just found out we've got another gamer in development, be another 8 months before release. There isn't a prayer that I'll have ANY money to buy anything 4th edition in the near, or FAR future, or any other games for that matter.

I like your description of pregnancy sir. Congrats!

JSorenson1979
08-04-2008, 05:40 AM
Oh, on a (somewhat tangentially) related note, Green Ronin has announced several months back that they are in the works on a "sword-and-sorcery" supplement book for their Mutants & Masterminds RPG. I'll have to check into it further and I don't recall the proposed name of the book (Green Ronin's site is blocked at work) but the more I think about it, the more likely I'll end up going that route to satisfy my "fantasy RPG" needs. Time will tell, of course.

Perhaps I can finally run my Battlechasers inspired campaign with that book...

Hmmm...I was working on a magic system for a homebrew game that was similar to M&M's power system. This could be interesting.

Too bad the core OGL D20 mechanics are cumbersome and god awful.

Webhead
08-04-2008, 09:44 AM
Hmmm...I was working on a magic system for a homebrew game that was similar to M&M's power system. This could be interesting.

Too bad the core OGL D20 mechanics are cumbersome and god awful.

It depends. In general, I agree with you but M&M is a diamond in the rough. Star Wars Saga is pretty spiffy too. Those two games showed me, against all odds, that d20 doesn't have to suck.

Dragon2605
08-06-2008, 09:05 AM
I'm quite happy with 3.5 for now. I started playing 2nd edition and played 3rd edition for years. I just upgraded to 3.5 within the past 6 months. I'll pass on 4th edition atleast until it's been out longer. I may never buy the newest edition.

Jcosby
08-06-2008, 04:16 PM
Well, I'll keep this short and sweet. I followed Wizards very closely when they announced a 4th edition coming out. I was very interested in changes they announced and new concepts. A group of my friends were even in the Beta for 4th. (Ok, not a beta more like a testing of scenarios.) We were kind of skeptical then, but I still held hope out. I didn't get a free set of books since I wasn't on the official testing list but I pre-ordered my set. We played a handful of games, and I have to safely say I will not play 4th edition the way it stands now. I don't want to get into a flame war about 3.5 vs. 4.0 to many of those already but 4th edition is not for me. I will probably sell the core books at the next local con. I'm pretty disappointed, actually very disappointed since FR is my favorite setting and now I have to adapt splat books and other materials to 3.5 or 3.75 (Pathfinder).

I can't even see a 4.5 version making the changes that most people that don't like 4.0 would want. It's not like 3.0 to 3.5 where they went in and made some balance changes and rule changes. They would have to change the entire concept of 4.0, which I'm sure they are not going to do.

It's a shame too, I like the concept of the new FR.. "Point's of Light". I just don't like the game system they came out with to support it.

Jeff

Inquisitor Tremayne
08-09-2008, 05:35 AM
frankly they cant afford to compete right now. They have lost almost half of the base. sure there gonna get some new people with this huge amount of advetrtising. but those guys are not the ones who spend the big bucks and the new demographic dont have the disposable income to make up for the loss.

That's a bold claim, do you have numbers to back it up?

They lost HALF their customer base, were these statistics posted somewhere?

And which demographic doesn't have the disposable income, the gamers with families to support or the kids that still live at home and have no responsibilities?

tesral
08-09-2008, 03:37 PM
And which demographic doesn't have the disposable income, the gamers with families to support or the kids that still live at home and have no responsibilities?

Empirical data. All the younger players I know are tight on the money. The Economy suckith. Those DMs I know Face to face have all said no four. Only one player I know and if the RPGA said Cliff diving into dirt was the deal, he would jump.

I don't have or claim any numbers, just what I see around me. Gamers from 20 to 60. Forry is making a big meh.

Maelstrom
08-09-2008, 10:03 PM
Empirical data. All the younger players I know are tight on the money.

Yet somehow the Gaming industry is still thriving. Somehow kids are getting a hold of console systems at hundreds of dollars and games at $50 a pop, with probably an average of 20 hours worth of play time each. D&D is cheap when compared to those hobbies.

tesral
08-09-2008, 10:39 PM
Yet somehow the Gaming industry is still thriving. Somehow kids are getting a hold of console systems at hundreds of dollars and games at $50 a pop, with probably an average of 20 hours worth of play time each. D&D is cheap when compared to those hobbies.

As to D&D being cheap compared, I would agree. As to the gaming industry "thriving", depends on who you listen to and what parts. Most of the people you say "Gaming industry" to will think consoles.

I had one woman come to my "How to Write for RPGs panel that had never played a Pen and Paper game.

gdmcbride
08-10-2008, 04:28 AM
Empirical data. All the younger players I know are tight on the money. The Economy suckith. Those DMs I know Face to face have all said no four. Only one player I know and if the RPGA said Cliff diving into dirt was the deal, he would jump.

I don't have or claim any numbers, just what I see around me. Gamers from 20 to 60. Forry is making a big meh.

D&D 4th edition is selling well. One Wizard's web site they have announced that the main rulebooks are now in their 3rd printing.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dramp/20080808

They also mention that both of the adventures (H1 and H2) have sold through their entire first print run. That for me was a major test. It's one thing to sell out of the main rule books. The real question for maintaining its longevity was 'Can 4th edition move supplements?' The first two adventures burning through their initial print runs confirm that the answer is a resounding 'yes'.

Further proof that they aren't lying:

Amazon sales rankings (#1-#9 are still all D&D 4e books; #10 is now a WotC Star Wars preorder).

RPGshop.com (the store attached to rpg.net) places the PHB and MM in their top-sellers from $20-$30. This is remarkable, because it is such a haven for indy rpg purchasers (the top-selling product in that category is Burning Wheel revised) and their price is frankly terrible for an online resource (almost $30 a book). And still 4th Ed claims number two and number three two months out from its initial release. Remarkable.

WotC has actually stepped up their production for 2009 announcing (so far) no less than 15 4th edition products for the first half of the year. Hardly the actions of a company who has found the product release disappointing.

The end result of all this -- you can claim you don't like 4th edition but you can't claim it isn't popular.

Gary

Engar
08-10-2008, 12:24 PM
I will say that now having run 4e a few times I will not be expanding my collection. The game is going great and everyone is having fun. The system supports nothing beyond combat so I wing the rest. I am glad it goes well and put my best into it for the sake of the game and players. I still dislike the system, although I do not share these opinions at the table. It would not be productive to the game.

I will not run 4e again after this campaign and not vote for it as a player. I have never liked playing DnD with alternate systems. SW Saga is much more closely related to DnD than 4e. I also like heavy roleplay and 4e is too light on individual creativity and far too focused on combat to the exclusion of all else. Each class is the same at heart, achieve and contribute to combat victory, they just have different methods of getting there. 4e has no depth and it has no soul. Two thumbs down.

tesral
08-10-2008, 12:31 PM
The end result of all this -- you can claim you don't like 4th edition but you can't claim it isn't popular.

It might be selling, but those poeple I know are not buying. That is all I was saying, and it isn't flying off the LFGS shelves.

Rather points out that there is a good portion of the existing base that is not buying in.

Inquisitor Tremayne
08-10-2008, 12:57 PM
I will say that now having run 4e a few times I will not be expanding my collection. The game is going great and everyone is having fun. The system supports nothing beyond combat so I wing the rest. I am glad it goes well and put my best into it for the sake of the game and players. I still dislike the system, although I do not share these opinions at the table. It would not be productive to the game.

I will not run 4e again after this campaign and not vote for it as a player. I have never liked playing DnD with alternate systems. SW Saga is much more closely related to DnD than 4e. I also like heavy roleplay and 4e is too light on individual creativity and far too focused on combat to the exclusion of all else. Each class is the same at heart, achieve and contribute to combat victory, they just have different methods of getting there. 4e has no depth and it has no soul. Two thumbs down.

Roleplaying for me has never been driven by the game system. My friends and I can roleplay without any books or a mechanic to support that roleplaying. Roleplaying in 4e is no different than in 3.5 unless you add in skill challenges (which as a DM I see as optional). Just like in every other RPG you describe your characters actions and what they say and then roll some dice (make a skill check). Last time I looked there are still skills in 4e and they still govern the things a PC can do, so I don't really see the change that you have encountered.

Its good you are giving it a shot though and as a DM no less. As a DM I have sen little difference in the versions as far as playability.

Depth and soul has always been what I put into it no matter the edition. I think that is the beauty of RPGs in general. You need very little to actually start playing, just an idea of a character, a story, and some NPCs and away you go!

Engar
08-10-2008, 01:18 PM
Roleplaying for me has never been driven by the game system. My friends and I can roleplay without any books or a mechanic to support that roleplaying.

You bet you can roleplay without a system, I am proving it with 4e. Next time I will choose a system that supports it.

Why limit myself or do extra work to compensate for a system designed for miniature combat? Gygax and Arneson were kind enough to transition a miniature wargame to a roleplaying game. I prefer the roleplaying game. I have no interest in going back or having to reinvent the wheel for 4e.

Inquisitor Tremayne
08-10-2008, 01:52 PM
May I ask how 3.5 supports ROLE-playing, specifically?

gdmcbride
08-10-2008, 02:14 PM
It might be selling, but those poeple I know are not buying. That is all I was saying, and it isn't flying off the LFGS shelves.

Rather points out that there is a good portion of the existing base that is not buying in.

The key there is 'people I know'. It is a classic mistake to assume what is true for your peer group is true everywhere for everyone. You likely know and value the opinion of people who mostly agree with you, come from a similar background, etc. This is not a personal slight. It's true of everyone.

The same is true for me. For example, one of the FLGS I frequent and know the owners reports record sales and books flying off shelves. But is that true everywhere?

That's why I find things that are more national (like Amazon) useful as thermometers. Yes, those numbers are tainted by the online versus local purchases dichotomy. Alas, WotC does not publish their sales numbers so we are forced to guess (although after Gencon when I chat with a few distributers and fulfillment people, there may be less guessing).

Have a significant portion of the old fans has been left behind? This seems likely. The success of Paizo (another successful seller of the moment) seems to testify to that.

So who is buying 4ed in record numbers?

That is the question of the hour. I'll try to have a non-guess answer after Gencon.

Gary

Xandros
08-11-2008, 03:54 AM
Why limit myself or do extra work to compensate for a system designed for miniature combat? Gygax and Arneson were kind enough to transition a miniature wargame to a roleplaying game. I prefer the roleplaying game. I have no interest in going back or having to reinvent the wheel for 4e.

Funnily this was a similiar argument made against me for not switching to 4E earlier in this thread. I mentioned that I had volumes of alternate and house rules that relied on 3.* mechanics that I had no desire to throw out in favor of 4th ed. Someone argued that they didn't want to have to alter the game, and were in favor of 4th ed. so they could play the game perfectly right out of the box. I still have no desire for 4th ed. but I don't knock those who will play it. I did however laugh at those that seemed to have the idea that 4th ed. would be perfect as is, and would not have any of the problems they had with 3.* ed. One big complaint I hear against 3rd is power gamers and people who know the rules backwards and forwards, and know how to manipulate them. I am sure those people won't be able to powergame and min/max in 4th edition once they get the rules all learned from front to back :rolleyes: !

thomaswhodoubts
08-11-2008, 12:11 PM
The poll is missing one option - "I didn't even upgrade to 2nd edition" :lol:

Webhead
08-11-2008, 01:22 PM
The more discussion rages about the "edition wars", the more my head spins. I like a few of the setting ideas for D&D (mostly 2e stuff like Al-Qadim and Dark Sun) but have trouble seeing how I could make viable and satisfying (agreable to myself and my players) games out of them using any present D&D edition. In essence, every edition has some major strikes against it that would keep me from whole-heartedly adopting it as a system-of-choice to run those campaigns.

The point, I suppose, is that the longer I ponder 4e, the less likely I find that I will be "updating" to it because it doesn't seem to offer anything significant over previous editions. But I also don't see myself "backtreading" to previous editions either because of standing dissatisfactions.

It's becoming a real headache because D&D has such massive popularity that it becomes a "shoe-in" game for most players (including mine), but I just can't figure out how to come to terms with it (other than suck it up, which I can do, but it gets really old really fast).

fmitchell
08-11-2008, 04:31 PM
The more discussion rages about the "edition wars", the more my head spins. I like a few of the setting ideas for D&D (mostly 2e stuff like Al-Qadim and Dark Sun) but have trouble seeing how I could make viable and satisfying (agreable to myself and my players) games out of them using any present D&D edition. In essence, every edition has some major strikes against it that would keep me from whole-heartedly adopting it as a system-of-choice to run those campaigns.

One of the reasons I probably won't DM a D&D game is that I can't mold it to fit my ideas of what would be cool. For example, I thought Iron Heroes had an excellent set of assumptions: magic was rare and usually evil, demi-humans didn't exist, and PCs had martial prowess above and beyond ordinary men. I even designed a world of city-states based on those assumptions (which I've yet to run).

With Mike Mearls designing 4e I thought I'd find direct support for that sort of world ... but, as with 3.x, only if I ignore more than half of the current PHB (and likely more than that of PHB 2). If I upgrade my original low-magic world, suddenly I lose some of the "uncanniness" of evil sorcerers, and a very specific idea of what magic is. If I assume that any PC Arcane or Divine classes are rare, then I have to come up with a reason a) why the exist, and b) why magical countermeasures exist. I'd also need to find or design a Martial Controller; in our game yesterday, I discovered how useful a Controller was against a horde of minions. However, designing a new class is even more of a black art than previously, since I now have to plan out Powers until level 30.

The same goes for a world with subtle "psychic" powers instead of magic or other tweaks to the way magic works (including a ritual-only world). And let's not get into all the Feats that become inaccessible if only humans exist (without some house rules). Or, if I want a more Asian-inspired world, how long will I have to wait until Monks, or some form of unarmed or lightly-armed warrior class, appears.

On the other hand, a lot of not-D&D systems are clay in my hands. I own GURPS Martial Arts (4th), Fudge's A Magical Medley, and enough fan game material to cobble together a magic system for BRP or GURPS if I don't like the given ones. Magic, martial arts, or super-combat in lighter systems like PDQ or FATE are fairly trivial, once the GM decides how said systems works.

Webhead
08-11-2008, 05:02 PM
*SNIP*

Agreed. D&D is very much a "niche" game. It's not a bad "niche" and, in fact, it does what it does very well (as evidenced by the fact that it has been around for over 34 years, has seen 6 -or more- editions and countless books), but what it does is very specific. It is not easily swayed from its course.

Somewhere within me, I like D&D. It was technically my first (even if not my most influential) RPG and I've always had some edition of it in my gaming library and played it on more occasions that I can count.

I find that the more "edition-battling" I see and the more I search for some greater insight to it all, the more disenchanting and constricting the whole thing feels.

I'm not out to D&D-bash. I'm just brainstorming. Forgive my ramblings...

Engar
08-11-2008, 06:48 PM
I'm not out to D&D-bash. I'm just brainstorming. Forgive my ramblings...

Just curious, did WotC introduce Magic or did they buy it later?


May I ask how 3.5 supports ROLE-playing, specifically?

First, everyone always assumes I am espousing 3.x. I might bring up other systems entirely if it were not a DnD thread. I will say 4e, of all the self-proclaimed roleplay systems with which I am familiar (admittedly only half a dozen or so) is likely the least honest to its proclamation. For DnD I always preferred 2e (with house rules), but 3.5 ended up being the accepted norm among my players and it did have numerous improvements (at the cost of some serious flaws).

That said, to answer a question with a question... Are you asking me how it supports roleplay above and beyond 4e? Or are you asking how it does so in general? It does both.

I appreciate you for valuing me and my opinions enough to argue, but I am starting to wonder if roleplay even holds the same meaning to everyone. This may simply be the heart of it all. Are we two sightless men arguing over how to define a color? The very basis of the argument becomes opinion and hearsay. I think my experience makes me correct. You think the same. I might argue the qualitative and quantitative value of my position (which is what my rant reduces to for anyone not actually acquainted with my play or style: 1 against), but to what end?

Seriously, I am losing steam here... motivation waining...

Plus I still have to play 4e and run it well. I cannot bring myself to overcome its inadequacies if I talk myself into hating it too much. It is like driving a Yugo, but better than walking.


I am sure those people won't be able to powergame and min/max in 4th edition once they get the rules all learned from front to back :rolleyes: !

I am running and playing 4e currently. I have no intention of running and prefer to avoid playing it again in the future. Therefore I hope all those troublesome powergamers do find their nitch with 4e. Then they can leave me to play DnD in peace!

fmitchell
08-11-2008, 07:07 PM
Just curious, did WotC introduce Magic or did they buy it later?

No, they introduced Magic: the Addiction. It's why they had a big pile of money to buy T$R and (what was left of) Avalon Hill.

Inquisitor Tremayne
08-11-2008, 07:48 PM
...but to what end?

Here is my hope:

Hopefully to the end that we realize that every game is different because it is played by different people, what is good for some may not be good for others, and more importantly we grow to accept that.

And accept it beyond whatever a major corporation is going to tell us what it is.

If we learn that we all like different games and to play our games differently we will realize that also makes us the same, and that can only strengthen the community.

What does not strengthen the community is railing on a game to the detriment of others.

Granted, constructive criticism is important and a games flaws should be called to light. But instead of espousing that these flaws are the be all and end all game breaking deals, let's come up with ways to FIX them.

I can remember and still have issues with 3.5 and I simply correct them to how I and my group thinks they should be fixed.

Same with Star Wars Saga Edition, my holy grail of RPGs and hands-down favorite, I have about 4 pages of house rules and fixes to things I didn't like in the RAW.

So I beg please, lets move on and end the "Edition Wars", leave the war to those over at WotCs boards. We here a pnpgames.com are united in our simple love of RPGs no matter what that RPG is, let's embrace that.

Dimthar
08-11-2008, 08:19 PM
Plus I still have to play 4e and run it well. I cannot bring myself to overcome its inadequacies if I talk myself into hating it too much. It is like driving a Yugo, but better than walking. I am running and playing 4e currently. I have no intention of running and prefer to avoid playing it again in the future. Therefore I hope all those troublesome powergamers do find their nitch with 4e. Then they can leave me to play DnD in peace!

But one time you say 4E does not support role-playing and the other time you are having fun with your 4E Campaign.

So are you suffering during this whole process of being a 4E GM? Is the role-playing cut short for the need of a Die roll? Do you find difficult to challenge your players with 4E? Or you just have an extraordinary group of players that regardless of the system they focus in role-play?


So, in D&D when you present your players with a World with Societies who could be mercantile or militaristic, Peasants with friends and rivals, Nobles with ambitions and piety, Intelligent Villains and Savage Monsters, is in that environment that ROLEPLAYING flourishes.

And this challenge is for the DM and the 4E Dungeon Master Guide does a great job in this matter. 4E is not just the PH, is also the DMG and the MM.


I don't buy the idea of a Game System encouraging or discouraging "Role-playing". That is not the purpose of the Game Mechanics in the first place. And to think that the "Role-playing" ability of the players can be suppressed by the System is to give them too little credit. So all the whining of D&D or 4E being a cage for the "True Roleplayer" in my opinion is pointless

I do too need to "suck it up", just because someone thinks that If I play 4E I am not a Role-player or I am not playing DnD doesn't mean I need to fight back all the way to PnPG Level 20!. Let this one be my last post in regards to the whole 4E is WoW, Vs 3.X, What's Wrong, Kobold Fodder discussion.

Since Engar and Webhead are here in Dallas, I said we settle this like Knights of Old and ponder about it with some beers in the closest Hooters (You better not be wearing Cowboy Jerseys or there will be blood :fencing: ) Gary, you are invited too.

.

agoraderek
08-11-2008, 10:02 PM
You better not be wearing Cowboy Jerseys or there will be blood :D
.

you do realize you're in, um, dallas, right? ;)

tesral
08-11-2008, 10:31 PM
No, they introduced Magic: the Addiction. It's why they had a big pile of money to buy T$R and (what was left of) Avalon Hill.

Alas, Avalon Hill. That one hurt.

Vicor
08-11-2008, 11:16 PM
I'm deffinately going to get the new edition. I recently gathered all my old manual together to do some brushing up on some of the rules etc.. Years of storage in the garage has made them smell nice and musty... I don't think others would appreciate my smelling up the game-table with my old tomes.
Anyone looking for old 2d versions? hahaha

Dimthar
08-11-2008, 11:30 PM
you do realize you're in, um, dallas, right? ;)

I did not specify whose blood. :crutch:

Mead
08-11-2008, 11:34 PM
At this point one thing absolutely has to happen for me to start playing 4E: there has to be a new printing of the books with errata and quality ink, paper, and binding. I bought them last month and took them back inside a week. It's nice that they made them so you could wipe off the ink and write in your own errata, but I prefer permanent tomes.

If that doesn't happen it's unlikely that I'll bother with it past the once-a-year game at festivus. There's so many other games to play.

Webhead
08-11-2008, 11:41 PM
Since Engar and Webhead are here in Dallas, I said we settle this like Knights of Old and ponder about it with some beers in the closest Hooters (You better not be wearing Cowboy Jerseys or there will be blood :fencing: ) Gary, you are invited too.

.

Sweet! I'm down...though I'm not sure my wife would appreciate me hanging out at Hooters. Perhaps another fine beer-dispensing establishment...;)

Oh yeah, and the Cowboys...*shudder*...any more room on your blood-letting bandwagon?


...If that doesn't happen it's unlikely that I'll bother with it past the once-a-year game at festivus. There's so many other games to play.

Here, here! I know I've got a dozen or two.

agoraderek
08-12-2008, 12:04 AM
I'm deffinately going to get the new edition. I recently gathered all my old manual together to do some brushing up on some of the rules etc.. Years of storage in the garage has made them smell nice and musty... I don't think others would appreciate my smelling up the game-table with my old tomes.
Anyone looking for old 2d versions? hahaha

dude, send all that musty stuff right here!

Engar
08-12-2008, 02:00 AM
But one time you say 4E does not support role-playing and the other time you are having fun with your 4E Campaign.

Yes, I am making the best of it with some excellent players who all enjoy 4e. I am likely the only 4e detractor in the group. I do not share my distaste for it at the table. I agreed to run 4e and will run the game as well as I might. I still feel 4e is significantly less conducive to roleplay (to me roleplay is not about combat flare), character development or creative fantasy beyond encounters. I now say that from my experience. For those with games masterfully encompassing all these things, I dare say it is the already developed and honed skill of the DM and players shining through a dark system, where in the past they system itself shone at least some light.


So are you suffering during this whole process of being a 4E GM?

Nothing so dramatic. I am not a victim of 4e. I essentially chose to run and play it. I do find it an obstacle rather than a tool with regard to what I call roleplay.


Is the role-playing cut short for the need of a Die roll?

My view of 4e is that roleplay is defined by combat. There is no other system for development beyond combat which was not stripped or raped for simplicity. Combat mechanics were further developed, changed, focused on, redesigned, made to shine bright and flourish. Class descriptions may now be summarized with a word (striker, leader, controller, etc). Followers, companions, familiars all were eliminated. Spells no longer exist as a seperate system unique to casters (they now are simply one manifestation of powers). Balance is espoused over diversity or creativity (backlash against the excesses of 3.x no doubt).


Do you find difficult to challenge your players with 4E?

Challenge them how? 4e seeks to lay out "encounters" to challenge characters by level and rewards equally weighed. I find it disappointing that this aspect earns such attention from the developers. I weep for those who never experience DnD beyond 4e's sad example and expectation. 4e is addressed to the next generation of roleplayers and encourages them onto mediocracy. I prefer a less rounded, less sterilized game which might challenge all those endeavoring to use it with a need to fix it or expand it or simply personalize it, yet inspires greatness, over a game which appeals to conformity and benality.


Or you just have an extraordinary group of players that regardless of the system they focus in role-play?

All players can be extraordinary. All games can be extraordinary. I just have to set the bar a great deal higher than 4e would.


And this challenge is for the DM and the 4E Dungeon Master Guide does a great job in this matter. 4E is not just the PH, is also the DMG and the MM.

The DMG is good information, but not new information. The system is no less limited because the DMG says do what you want with it. With all the combat focus the MM is impressive.


I do too need to "suck it up", just because someone thinks that If I play 4E I am not a Role-player or I am not playing DnD doesn't mean I need to fight back all the way to PnPG Level 20!

I am not trying to attack anyone as a non-roleplayer or less of one for liking or using 4e. I simply credit the player/DM with overcoming the tendencies of 4e. It is the new player without the understanding of what roleplaying can be that may greatly suffer from 4e.


. Let this one be my last post in regards to the whole 4E is WoW, Vs 3.X, What's Wrong, Kobold Fodder discussion.

Since Engar and Webhead are here in Dallas, I said we settle this like Knights of Old and ponder about it with some beers in the closest Hooters (You better not be wearing Cowboy Jerseys or there will be blood :fencing: ) Gary, you are invited too.

.

I am from Illinois and have little sports interest anyway since Jordan retired from the Bulls years back. Then I was always a fair weather fan (he just brought years and years of fair weather). Is Buffalo Wild Wings out this way? That keeps the beer and the wings part while eliminating any dubiousness.

Inquisitor Tremayne
08-12-2008, 10:08 AM
...where in the past they system itself shone at least some light.

I hate to keep harping on this but this is the 2nd time you have claimed this without any evidence.


Why limit myself or do extra work to compensate for a system designed for miniature combat? Gygax and Arneson were kind enough to transition a miniature wargame to a roleplaying game. I prefer the roleplaying game. I have no interest in going back or having to reinvent the wheel for 4e.

When asked:


May I ask how 3.5 supports ROLE-playing, specifically?

You replied:


...to answer a question with a question... Are you asking me how it supports roleplay above and beyond 4e? Or are you asking how it does so in general? It does both.

STILL, no specifics were given and I won't go into how complicated that last part makes the whole argument.

Perhaps I should define what I consider ROLE-playing. This would be the PCs describing or acting in character to overcome any challenges presented by me the DM without the use of any die rolls. One example to use is the often used example in 4e for their skill challenges encounters, convincing the local Duke to do x, y, and z. To ROLE-play this situation would be the PCs trying to convince me acting as the Duke without the use of relying on a die roll to determine the outcome.

The above example could also be extended to combat if I felt so inclined, but I often don't as a DM because I enjoy miniature combat.

Now, In 3.5 and 4e I provide a mix of both of the above, acting in character and combat. 3.5 did not support non-combat encounters for me unless it required the use of dice and same with 4e. This doesn't mean that each system doesn't support roleplaying as a whole, what it means is that you don't need hard and fast rule for how to act your character.

Well, I have provided my examples, could you please tell us how 3.x or how
...in the past they system itself shone at least some light. as far as roleplaying being supported more than 4e.

Webhead
08-12-2008, 12:15 PM
...I am from Illinois and have little sports interest anyway since Jordan retired from the Bulls years back. Then I was always a fair weather fan (he just brought years and years of fair weather)...

I remember a time when I enthusiastically followed Basketball...back in the "glory days" when there were personalities in the sport that were worth following. Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Charles Barkley...

After Michael left the sport, it's just been a slow decline into mediocrity for me and I've not had much interest to speak of since about '93 or '94.

Now, I pretty much ignore sports all together. Just nothing that captures my attention. And at the risk of being lynched (espeically here in Texas), watching football these days just bores me to tears. I would rather re-spackle my house than sit through a televised football game...and I'm not fond of spackling.

Just saying...

Sorry for the thread drift.

Engar
08-12-2008, 12:57 PM
I hate to keep harping on this but this is the 2nd time you have claimed this without any evidence.

So all that stuff about followers, companions, henchmen, organizations... All that stuff I wrote over dozens of posts numerous times is so easily dismissed? Perhaps I need the criteria for presenting evidence as well.

Valdar
08-12-2008, 07:20 PM
I hate to keep harping on this but this is the 2nd time you have claimed this without any evidence.


Your math is off. Engar has trolled about this a lot more than twice.

And, I'm stealing your .sig.

agoraderek
08-12-2008, 07:22 PM
And at the risk of being lynched (espeically here in Texas), watching football these days just bores me to tears.


that's it, i'm gettin' a rope!

seriously, you're in d-town, there is some VERY good high school football being played there :)

tesral
08-12-2008, 11:46 PM
that's it, i'm gettin' a rope!

seriously, you're in d-town, there is some VERY good high school football being played there :)

Is that played with a ball shaped like a foot?

:focus: Yea, yea, I know.....

Talmek
08-12-2008, 11:53 PM
<SNIP> And at the risk of being lynched (espeically here in Texas), watching football these days just bores me to tears. <SNIP>

I'm sorry, I must've misunderstood. WTF did you just say? :D

Seriously, I can relate. Since I've moved back home I just haven't had the same interest in sports that I used to. I'm not sure if I'm tired of watching the Astros shoot themselves in the foot (although in the past week they've done quite well) or the Texans struggling to manufacture talent.

Anyways, back on topic. I did acquire a copy of the three core rulebooks while on vacation and after reading them I just can't get into it.

The role-classification in itself pushes me away from it. What if I don't want to be a "striker" class as a Ranger? What if I'd rather focus on something else? I'm sure there's at least one ambiguous statement somewhere in the core three that says "Play it your way" to some effect, but there's not a whole lot of room to expand the class roles in a typical group. Or so it seems with what I've read.

Valdar
08-13-2008, 01:01 AM
The role-classification in itself pushes me away from it. What if I don't want to be a "striker" class as a Ranger? What if I'd rather focus on something else? I'm sure there's at least one ambiguous statement somewhere in the core three that says "Play it your way" to some effect, but there's not a whole lot of room to expand the class roles in a typical group. Or so it seems with what I've read.

Nope, you got it. If you don't want to be a striker, you don't play Batman, er, I mean, Ranger. If you want to be on the front lines, it's Paladin or Fighter for you. And so on.

Seriously, this is the devil's gambit for playing a class-based game. If you want free reign in creating your Ranger, try GURPS. (Seriously, try it- I love GURPS). Class systems are geared toward casual gamers who want to say, "I'm a Ranger, what do I do?" and they want an answer along the lines of, "You shoot people with your bow, or you run up and slash around while the heavies keep the baddies' attention".

Class balance. It's harsh, but it's important for making sure your friends still get to play.

Inquisitor Tremayne
08-13-2008, 01:13 AM
So all that stuff about followers, companions, henchmen, organizations... All that stuff I wrote over dozens of posts numerous times is so easily dismissed? Perhaps I need the criteria for presenting evidence as well.

My apologies for not reading the entire thread and noting any previous examples you may have brought up before.

However, if followers, companions, and henchmen are examples that you are saying encourage ROLE-playing, I fail to see how these game mechanics encourage acting in character or other forms of roleplaying.

Granted they do allow the PCs to interact with and control other NPCs, who are controlled by the DM, and the last time I checked there were still NPCs in 4e.

Farcaster
08-13-2008, 11:51 AM
Empirical data. All the younger players I know are tight on the money...I don't have or claim any numbers, just what I see around me.

Tesral, what you are referring to is more accurately described as anecdotal evidence ("based on personal observation, case study reports, or random investigations rather than systematic scientific evaluation.") Empirical evidience is "guided by experience or experiment;" and "provable or verifiable by experience or experiment."



The role-classification in itself pushes me away from it. What if I don't want to be a "striker" class as a Ranger? What if I'd rather focus on something else?
I would suggest looking into the multiclassing features of 4th edition, which have changed dramatically from 3rd. You could either multiclass into Ranger or from Ranger into another class. By paragon level, you could really get a mishmash of two classes going with various powers from two different roles.

Inquisitor Tremayne
08-13-2008, 01:11 PM
I would suggest looking into the multiclassing features of 4th edition, which have changed dramatically from 3rd. You could either multiclass into Ranger or from Ranger into another class. By paragon level, you could really get a mishmash of two classes going with various powers from two different roles.

Actually, I was going over the multiclass rule just last night and they seem to actually be not as bad as I thought. Where in 3.x you were severely gimped as a multiclass character, especially a spellcaster, it seems the only thing you loose out on in 4e are feats, since you have to spend some feats on Multiclass Feats.

Which isn't so bad if you consider what you can get, which is access to another classes powers.

So in order to get that Fighter that wields two weapons, you simply be a fighter wielding two weapons take a few Multiclass feats to gain some cool ranger powers that function with 2 weapons and away you go!

Yes you loose out on feats and I for one love my feats and skills and am hardly willing to sacrifice them, but I thought multiclassing was much less benificial than before, and I love my two weapon wielding fighters and it seems much more of a possibility than before.

Talmek
08-13-2008, 04:10 PM
I would suggest looking into the multiclassing features of 4th edition, which have changed dramatically from 3rd. You could either multiclass into Ranger or from Ranger into another class. By paragon level, you could really get a mishmash of two classes going with various powers from two different roles.

I'll have to take a second look at it. From what you and Inq. Tre. have said, it warrants another reading. I'm not "all-against" 4e, I promise. :D

Tony Misfeldt
08-14-2008, 05:43 PM
Actually, I was going over the multiclass rule just last night and they seem to actually be not as bad as I thought. Where in 3.x you were severely gimped as a multiclass character, especially a spellcaster, it seems the only thing you loose out on in 4e are feats, since you have to spend some feats on Multiclass Feats.

Which isn't so bad if you consider what you can get, which is access to another classes powers.

So in order to get that Fighter that wields two weapons, you simply be a fighter wielding two weapons take a few Multiclass feats to gain some cool ranger powers that function with 2 weapons and away you go!

Yes you loose out on feats and I for one love my feats and skills and am hardly willing to sacrifice them, but I thought multiclassing was much less benificial than before, and I love my two weapon wielding fighters and it seems much more of a possibility than before.

Both 3.X and 4.0 have made Two Weapon Fighting far more complex than it has to be. Multiclass as Ranger/Whatever to get the Two Weapon Style Feat? Why bother? In 2e Skills & Powers you could take Two Weapon Style Specialization and Ambidexterity, both at first level, just by spending the necessary Character/Skill Points. And virtually any class can do this, not just the warrior classes (or "Strikers"), it just costs a few extra Character/Skill Points.

And there's a very good reason that multiclassing made for fairly gimped characters in 2e and 3.X. It helps prevent munchkinism. If I'm reading the description of 4.0 multicassed characters on this thread right, it looks as though they get all of the benefits of all of their classes, but few if any drawbacks from multiclassing. That sounds like a DM's nightmare to me.

I haven't really seen or heard of any new rules that would make me want to shell out a bunch of cash and buy up all the new books to start a whole new campaign. I haven't even heard of any rules that I'd really want to incorperate into my hybrid game. I might play a game of D&D 4.0 if invited (in fact I have been invited and I'm just waiting for the DM to get his act in gear), but I won't convert.

Kalanth
08-14-2008, 06:06 PM
And there's a very good reason that multiclassing made for fairly gimped characters in 2e and 3.X. It helps prevent munchkinism. If I'm reading the description of 4.0 multicassed characters on this thread right, it looks as though they get all of the benefits of all of their classes, but few if any drawbacks from multiclassing. That sounds like a DM's nightmare to me.

It's actually not that bad, and rather limiting honestly. When you multiclass you get only a very small amount of the class that you dip into and it takes a feat to do it. If you want to go deep into it you use four feats in total, and if you want to go further you loose out on a Paragon path (which is something that really makes a class shine.)

Lets say the Warlord wanted to do more damage and so they multiclass with Warlock. Taking that first feat means that the Warlord now has access to an At-Will power as an Encounter Power based one the Pact you choose (i.e. Eye Bite) and then you gain access to using implements for casting (Wands, rods, and pact blades). Sure, its a new power but its one the Warlock could use every round if they wanted and you can only do it once a fight.

Now, at level four you want to continue so you take the Novice Power feat and swap out an encounter power from Warlord and replace it with an equal or lower level power from Warlock. At 8th level you can do this with a Utility Power by taking Acolyte Power, and at 10th you can take Adept Power to do this with a Daily Power.

We keep going and forego the Paragon path by taking another Warlock Encounter Power at 11th, Utility power at 12th, and Daily power at 19th. The character never gains access to the most beneficial feature of Warlock which is the Curse feature (verified this with WoTC customer service) and has less access to both Warlord and Warlock powers because of the swap outs.

Definitely not a game breaking thing for a character to multiclass in the new edition and most certainly nothing I would worry about as a DM. Strikers do a ton of damage and this particular example would only up his damage output by a small margin by mixing it with Warlock. The new edition makes it so much easier to compensate for someone who dishes out the pain for both PC and DM.

Mead
08-15-2008, 08:19 AM
Indeed, from the little I've read of 4e, there doesn't seem to be much point in "multiclassing" at all. It's like they tried to discourage it, but knew too many people would pitch an unholy fit if they just left it out.

Engar
08-15-2008, 08:29 AM
Multiclassing in 4e is not bad, I just do not like it. It may be more realistic to pick up a few bits and pieces of another specialty, but the system is still flawed. And I still see no practical reason to take the additional skill feat vs. simply taking the multiclass feat for a class with the desired skill. Mechanically, it might be argued that they encourage this kind of multiclassing (which is a bad nomer for what 4e does since it is not the same thing).

ronpyatt
08-15-2008, 10:24 AM
And I still see no practical reason to take the additional skill feat vs. simply taking the multiclass feat for a class with the desired skill. Agreed. Aside from the little bit you get from dabbling in a class. It appears it's mostly for roleplay and flavor.

Kalanth
08-15-2008, 10:40 AM
It can be usefull to multiclass certain combinations, and others not so much. In my example of mixing Warlord and Warlock it is not all that beneficial because a large volume of Warlock powers use the curse in them, and if you went with either of the Warlock Paragon Paths (which is something I left out of the example, but is an option in 4E multiclassing) you still don't obtain the curse which reduces your options even further.

However, flip it around and take Warlord and multiclass with Rogue, for example, and you can add Sneak Attack to your abilities and use it the same as the Rogue class. You can then boost that with the Backstabber feat and even focus in there a touch to take the paragon paths or full multiclass of Rogue with your Warlord. This will increase your potential damage output by a large margin.

Do the same kind of thing with Warlord and Ranger, taking the Ranger multiclass feats, Two Weapon fighting, and pick powers that use two swords when you take those feats and you again increase you damage output. Going with Ranger you also add Hunters Quarry once per encounter and that is also a nice damage boost to the character.

Multiclassing is really more hit-and-miss at this point but as options increase with future releases it will become a bit more robust and intersting to do.

Webhead
08-15-2008, 11:54 AM
I don't think any edition of D&D has really "done it" for me on multiclassing. In 2e, "dual-class" humans were a mess and multiclass humanoids were just kind of disappointing. In 3e, they tried to swing the other way and say "you can take virtually any combination of classes you want". I referred to this as the "cherry-picking conundrum". People pawed through lists of class abilities to find the best "rules combos" they could. There was a character in one of our long-running 3.X games who had 5 classes...5! 3 core classes and 2 prestige classes.

4e multiclassing, from my very limited understanding of it, seems to be a little closer to my idea of how multiclassing should work, but I'm sure it needs a lot of refinement before it really stands out as a serious game option. I have no playtest experience, so I couldn't say if it has any actual value within the game or not.

Inquisitor Tremayne
08-16-2008, 12:34 AM
5 classes is nothing if you look at some of the character write ups for npcs in Star Wars Saga, we are talking 5+ class combos, and that is almost standard!

Xandros
08-16-2008, 05:28 AM
Multiclassing is important to me. I find it really helps to individualize your character from every other _ level/_race/_class. 2nd edition really discouraged multiclassing, and I didn't care for that. There are many characters in fiction that are clearly multiclass and I feel in roleplaying it is very important to be able to play those types of characters. I always built my character classes based on what my character would choose and not the "what class would give me the best advantage at this level, no matter how much sense it makes." I have seen a lot of that mentality though. 3rd edition multiclassing makes more sense to me, although that may have more to do with the fact that I am more used to it.

Webhead
08-17-2008, 11:15 AM
Multiclassing is important to me. I find it really helps to individualize your character from every other _ level/_race/_class. 2nd edition really discouraged multiclassing, and I didn't care for that. There are many characters in fiction that are clearly multiclass and I feel in roleplaying it is very important to be able to play those types of characters. I always built my character classes based on what my character would choose and not the "what class would give me the best advantage at this level, no matter how much sense it makes." I have seen a lot of that mentality though. 3rd edition multiclassing makes more sense to me, although that may have more to do with the fact that I am more used to it.

3e multiclassing certainly had its strength: customizability.

It also had its weakness: free reign.

I've had players get snippy with me when I politely tell them, "there's no logical reason or explaination for why your character would suddenly develop in that class". They would typically respond with something along the lines of "it's my character and I'll do what I want" or "the rules say I can" or "we can just retroactively assume that my character was studying those abilities all along". It gets difficult and wasteful of time and energy to argue the point. :rolleyes:

Still, it's probably the best game in town where D&D multiclassing is concerned. That doesn't mean I'm terribly fond of it, but it is generally preferable to the alternatives.

tesral
08-17-2008, 04:12 PM
I've had players get snippy with me when I politely tell them, "there's no logical reason or explaination for why your character would suddenly develop in that class". They would typically respond with something along the lines of "it's my character and I'll do what I want" or "the rules say I can" or "we can just retroactively assume that my character was studying those abilities all along". It gets difficult and wasteful of time and energy to argue the point. :rolleyes:

Still, it's probably the best game in town where D&D multiclassing is concerned. That doesn't mean I'm terribly fond of it, but it is generally preferable to the alternatives.


I've seen in more than a few times. The only reason to multiclass was to get the cool power. I'll also agree that 3e had the most accommodating multiclass rules. It is mainly due to the single XP chart that allows for it. Previous multiclass rules are primarily designed to discourage the practice.

My current pratcvie is to build you a class. I used a modified custom class table from the 2e DMG to build anything into a class you want.

Right now playing a warlock that might benifit from any number of class features, but so far a reason or a chance to multiclass has not shown up. It isn't in the nature of the character to go seeking that kind of knowledge.

Scifione
08-17-2008, 05:08 PM
3e multiclassing certainly had its strength: customizability.

It also had its weakness: free reign.

I've had players get snippy with me when I politely tell them, "there's no logical reason or explaination for why your character would suddenly develop in that class". They would typically respond with something along the lines of "it's my character and I'll do what I want" or "the rules say I can" or "we can just retroactively assume that my character was studying those abilities all along". It gets difficult and wasteful of time and energy to argue the point. :rolleyes:

Still, it's probably the best game in town where D&D multiclassing is concerned. That doesn't mean I'm terribly fond of it, but it is generally preferable to the alternatives.

I would agree for the most part. The most restricktive house rule I have implimented was you have to finish one prestige class before starting another one.

I will not be buying 4E anytime soon if I can help it. I like 3.5E.

PS: DO NOT LEAVE YOUR 4E books in the car. The bindings are glued. I know two people that have pages falling out of the books and one that has his in binders now. WotC should of stiched that bindings like any other hardback.

tesral
08-17-2008, 11:58 PM
PS: DO NOT LEAVE YOUR 4E books in the car. The bindings are glued. I know two people that have pages falling out of the books and one that has his in binders now. WotC should of stiched that bindings like any other hardback.


They have not used stitched bindings since the AD&D 1 books. Looking at my 3e Draconomicon. It's glued.

So the glue is as bad as the ink. I've never heard of a book coming apart from too much heat before this. Doesn't mean it has never happened. I would like to know if anyone has had a book fall apart from a summer day in the car. Sad, just sad.

It truly grieves me to see this lack of quality. They go all out with full color pages but skimp on the ink and binding. I would prefer less color and better ink and binding. Hero 5r for example. The paper isn't glossy, the printing is all black, but the pages are thick and the binding well made. The book will not win any beauty contests, but it will last, and that is what matters in the long run. My old AD&D books are hard used and look it, but they have all their pages and no smears. And they have had acidic drinks spilled on them too.

Frankly with the tools I have right here I can make a better book. The print will not smear and the pages will not fall out.

nijineko
08-18-2008, 12:15 AM
build it and they will come.

(i don't suppose you could rebind all my 3.x books into one giant tome of d&d, could you?) ^^

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
08-18-2008, 12:16 AM
They have not used stitched bindings since the AD&D 1 books. Looking at my 3e Draconomicon. It's glued.

So the glue is as bad as the ink. I've never heard of a book coming apart from too much heat before this. Doesn't mean it has never happened. I would like to know if anyone has had a book fall apart from a summer day in the car. Sad, just sad.

It truly grieves me to see this lack of quality. They go all out with full color pages but skimp on the ink and binding. I would prefer less color and better ink and binding. Hero 5r for example. The paper isn't glossy, the printing is all black, but the pages are thick and the binding well made. The book will not win any beauty contests, but it will last, and that is what matters in the long run. My old AD&D books are hard used and look it, but they have all their pages and no smears. And they have had acidic drinks spilled on them too.

Frankly with the tools I have right here I can make a better book. The print will not smear and the pages will not fall out.

I agree. Give me less color and better ink and binding and i'd be happy.

Thoth-Amon

Thriondel Half-Elven
08-18-2008, 12:22 AM
They have not used stitched bindings since the AD&D 1 books. Looking at my 3e Draconomicon. It's glued.

So the glue is as bad as the ink. I've never heard of a book coming apart from too much heat before this. Doesn't mean it has never happened. I would like to know if anyone has had a book fall apart from a summer day in the car. Sad, just sad.

It truly grieves me to see this lack of quality. They go all out with full color pages but skimp on the ink and binding. I would prefer less color and better ink and binding. Hero 5r for example. The paper isn't glossy, the printing is all black, but the pages are thick and the binding well made. The book will not win any beauty contests, but it will last, and that is what matters in the long run. My old AD&D books are hard used and look it, but they have all their pages and no smears. And they have had acidic drinks spilled on them too.

Frankly with the tools I have right here I can make a better book. The print will not smear and the pages will not fall out.

i agree. i forgot my 3e PHB in the car once and when i got it out and opened it chapter 8 fell right out. didn't even have the book all that long.

and i had previously purchased 1e DMG and 2e DMG and MM and they are in near perfect condition. nice sturdy paper. i definately like the quality of the old books better

tesral
08-18-2008, 12:35 AM
build it and they will come.

(i don't suppose you could rebind all my 3.x books into one giant tome of d&d, could you?) ^^


I don't think binding combs are made that large. You would also need a large friend to carry THE BOOK with you and turn to the right pages within.

In any case, carrying every book you own is what computers are for.

Frankly the D&D books would be good in a comb bind, that way they would lie flat when opened without breaking the spines. My one worry would be that the thin pages would tend to tear out at the holes the comb goes through. The plastic spiral would be better for that. More and smaller holes. The comb binder makes 18 holes along the spine. It spreads the stress out. But if roughly handled the first and last pages will tear at the top and bottom. I have more problem with the Pocket portfolios I use as covers. I switched to plastic covers, more durable.

I do know the method for traditional book binding, but I lack a book press. It is possible to sew single sheets together. That is how parchment books were bound. A good book binder could take a Lizards book apart and rebind it to last until the ink smears off. Not much to be done for that. Alas, good book binders are hard to find as well.

:focus: (ahem) I will update to Forry when pigs fly. Heck I never really updated to 3x.



i agree. i forgot my 3e PHB in the car once and when i got it out and opened it chapter 8 fell right out. didn't even have the book all that long.

Then the issue is sadly nothing new.

Engar
08-18-2008, 08:35 AM
No doubt there was a meeting somewhere about price vs. profit vs. quality. Likely resulting in that order. All but a few niche dealers must accept price as dictated by the market to remain competitive, but some will place quality over profit (others improve quality without reducing profit by lowering overhead, but that is another discussion entirely). Those that make great use of the book are likely to remain loyal while those making the least use are less likely to notice degraded quality. Hence a book which wears out may be replaced leading to more profit.

Even on these boards it has been the few that criticized WotC production quality. The few only matter to a business if they are influencing the many. In this case many of the comments about the quality were rebuked by those refusing to believe, dismissed by those indifferent, or the messenger was discredited as anti-WotC. And that from those moved enough to post. Change in quality do to the market is most unlikely.

Kalanth
08-18-2008, 01:22 PM
I keep hearing these comments about the quality of the books for 4E but have not experienced them yet. In my 4E group there are 4 PHBs, 1 DMG, and 1 MM. None of those books have had any binding issues or ink smudging even to the slightest. In fact, I had heard so much about the ink that the first day I had the books I would pick random pages and rub them to see if the ink would smudge. But then, as with all things, it is likely case by case and you hear more of the bad than you do of the good.

As for the game itself I am loving it so far and the speed and open ended creativity provided by the reduction in available skills has really brought my players closer to the characters they loved of 1st and 2nd editions. The only two knocks I have would be that Multiclassing is dumbed down (my favorite thing of 3.X) and that combat takes longer (due to more rounds and more hitpoints). Take out those things and this edition is (IMHO) perfect. I know they plan on dumping just as many suppliments as previous editions down our throats with 4E, but I will stay core for a good long time as there are just so many good options at the moment.