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View Full Version : Paizo is not going to support 4th Edition



MysticalForest
03-19-2008, 12:25 AM
Thoughts? Reactions?

gdmcbride
03-19-2008, 01:14 AM
Thoughts? Reactions?

The header isn't exactly true. Paizo will support 4th edition through their Necromancer Games imprint/partnership. You can read the whole thing here:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG

Still, the move is quite surprising to me and very brave. We shall see if it pays off. This announcement will doubtless have quite an effect on the game industry for at least the next year. What sort of effect ... that is more difficult to see.

As a Paizo 'Superscriber' (i.e. I'm subscribed to all their game related product lines) I plan to keep up my subscription regardless of edition. I enjoy their writing, their production values, their consistent innovation. I have no problem converting systems.

Who knows ... since I'm going to almost certainly end up owning both 4th edition and the Pathfinder RPG maybe between them I can house rule some amazing hybrid.

I'll get my first real hands on taste of D&D 4 at Gamestorm. By then, I should have read and fully digested the Alpha release of Pathfinder. Then, I may have more to say about this.

Always in motion the future is.

Gary

amardolem
03-19-2008, 06:50 AM
As a big fan of the creativity behind Dragon and Dungeon (it's what got me back into this hobby after many years) I have to say I'm excited, plus for the people that own countless 3.5 books it means a greater level of support for their investment, should they want to get more mileage out of it. Plus I like Golarion. A very cursory scan of the rules set (I hate reading long pdf's) shows improvements in many areas including the much maligned grapple. The backward compatability aspect allows you to take and leave what you wish, so how can that be bad? :biggrin:

RealmsDM
03-20-2008, 08:15 PM
VEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERY interesting....

I for one welcome this... at the very least, it will help me get a few more years outta my 3.5 books

cplmac
03-20-2008, 08:51 PM
VEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERY interesting....

I for one welcome this... at the very least, it will help me get a few more years outta my 3.5 books


I seem to recall one of our wizened posters saying that just because a new edition comes out does not mean that the previous edition becomes no longer usable.

gdmcbride
03-20-2008, 09:53 PM
I seem to recall one of our wizened posters saying that just because a new edition comes out does not mean that the previous edition becomes no longer usable.

Exactly true. If you love 3.5, keep playing it. It will be years before any of the books are hard to find. Hell, if they're like 1st edition, it may be decades.

And remember, Pathfinder won't just be 3.5 reprinted. It will be an update addressing of many of the perceived problems of 3.5 (just not as radical as 4th edition and with an eye to backwards compatibility).

For example, just from my barest skimming of the Alpha release .pdf, rogues will have d8 hit points.

While certainly not a major change, it is definitely a change.

Gary

Maelstrom
03-21-2008, 04:26 AM
This is good news. I wasn't aware of Pathfinder prior to reading this thread.

I'm going 4e myself, but I hate to see so much disenfranchisement in the RPG community for those that don't like it or don't want to give up what they have.

With a publisher (even though a small one compared to WoTC) supporting those that don't want to make the switch, the D&D community can continue with everyone having supported options to choose from. And honestly, competition for the player base of D&D will be good for both paths. It'll drive prices down and keep them both producing high quality material.

gdmcbride
03-21-2008, 05:00 AM
This is good news. I wasn't aware of Pathfinder prior to reading this thread.

...

It'll drive prices down and keep them both producing high quality material.

I really can't recommend Pathfinder enough to anyone who enjoys D&D. Even if it is 3.5 or Pathfinder or whatever ... it is full of great ideas, beautiful art, compelling storylines and some of the most consistent writing I've ever seen from a monthly RPG product.

I find myself anxiously waiting for my Pathfinder to arrive in the mail every month. It's been a long a time since a product line has done that for me.

Honestly, I much prefer these releases to standard WOTC fare. Paizo does not use the delve format (of which I am no fan) and while not being X-rated (or anything close) does not shy away from more adult themes and more complex plots. I am glad to see them compete with WOTC's domination of the market.

But as far as driving prices down for 4th. Ummm... I wouldn't count on it. WOTC has already set their prices for all 2008 and early 2009 products. I doubt anything Paizo can do will change those. If anything Paizo has pretty consistently matched WOTCs prices since that's obviously 'what the market will bear.'

Gary

rabkala
03-21-2008, 11:45 PM
Yeah, Paizo D&D 3.75 edition! Time shall tell how much they tinker with things and how well they fair in the future. I am sure many will love this alternative.

My groups are all set to go 4e, so it doesn't exactly thrill me.

tesral
03-22-2008, 01:49 AM
Some of us are just tired of them revamping the entire game every five to six years. About the time you get used to the new set of rules they announce a change of rules, again.

I've seen too many announced changes in 4e that are just changes, they improve nothing. Making halfings taller, are they 5/8th-lings now? As much as 3/4-lings maybe? Dropoping Gnomes, adding Teiflings as a core race, but not the other planer touched. How are these "improvments"?

AISI they should not be revamping the rules all over new yet again. They should be refining the system that is to make a better game. Working on the existing balance and existing rules set to make it better.

They are creating a Microsoft problem for themselves. Older versions of D&D will be the main competition for the new game. What they once called the best D&D ever they now must deride as not good enough anymore.

As it is they are changing so much they are bound to create as many problems as they might fix. Get ready for 4.5 in a year or five and save your pennies for that 5e that changes everything down the road.

It's an endless treadmill, of buy, buy, buy. I am off the treadmill, thank you.

nijineko
03-23-2008, 12:39 AM
but think of all the exercise you'll be missing out on! ;) i'm not fond of spending a whole bunch more again myself. and i probably won't. i'll just mooch off of others, as usual. ^^

gdmcbride
03-23-2008, 04:06 AM
Some of us are just tired of them revamping the entire game every five to six years. About the time you get used to the new set of rules they announce a change of rules, again.

I've seen too many announced changes in 4e that are just changes, they improve nothing. Making halfings taller, are they 5/8th-lings now? As much as 3/4-lings maybe? Dropoping Gnomes, adding Teiflings as a core race, but not the other planer touched. How are these "improvments"?

AISI they should not be revamping the rules all over new yet again. They should be refining the system that is to make a better game. Working on the existing balance and existing rules set to make it better.

They are creating a Microsoft problem for themselves. Older versions of D&D will be the main competition for the new game. What they once called the best D&D ever they now must deride as not good enough anymore.

As it is they are changing so much they are bound to create as many problems as they might fix. Get ready for 4.5 in a year or five and save your pennies for that 5e that changes everything down the road.

It's an endless treadmill, of buy, buy, buy. I am off the treadmill, thank you.

Look, we get it. You hate WOTC. If all you have to add to a conversation is 'I hate WOTC' could you please just assume we already know that.

You are off the treadmill. Great. I presume that means you buy no new gaming books. Good for you. I think you have missed several great books released in recent years, books that have changed my mind about what RPGs are capable of, but really so what?

I like buying RPGs and seeing how innovative game designers are pushing the hobby forward. I like reading adventures that have exciting, innovative plots that I might never have thought up on my own.

You don't.

Yay, the world is big enough for both of us. What has this got do with Paizo's future publishing plans?

Gary

gdmcbride
03-23-2008, 04:24 AM
So ... to get back on topic. Paizo has announced plans for an organized play campaign to support their upcoming Pathfinder RPG.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderSociety

They have hired Nick Logue (previously a well known D&D freelancer) to lead this effort. It kicks off at Gencon this year using 3.5 rules and will transition over to Pathfinder next year with its release.

They have announced four scenarios to start the line. The summaries look interesting.

It would appear that Paizo is not only planning to compete with WOTC but also with the RPGA. This could be cool. I will try to get into a Pathfinder session at Gencon and report back on how its going.

I'll say this ... they are really going all out on this effort. Clearly, Paizo is not kidding about this Pathfinder push. They have really staked the farm on this.

I continue to have one nagging point of concern about all this: 3.5 has much that annoys the crap out of me. Is it possible to create a version of 3.x that is both (mostly) backward compatible, easy to prep and plays well? Paizo promises big things ... but is it possible?

I remain skeptical.

Gary

nijineko
03-23-2008, 07:50 AM
not to mention that since they revoked the dungeon and dragon license, it'll occur to some wiseacre to suggest that they revoke the ogl, ending the days of 3.5 support without a paid license. i certainly hope not, however.

RealmsDM
03-23-2008, 11:06 AM
I think the idea of Pathfinder is great. IMO, 3.5 was a fine, workable system. It had its problems, but so did every other system, and so will 4e. Now both camps of gamers will be happy. Some ofus can move on, and some can stay in 3.5 for as long as we can.

I always liked Paizo- everything about them. I was really upset with WotC for pulling the plug on Dragon/Dungeon magazine, and I now see why- to gear up for the 4e platform, and honestly, the content of both magazine was just as good, if not better, than what WotC was putting out.

I read through the Pathfinder rule set, and I gotta say, it looks pretty good. They didn't change too much, and what they did change was totally based on what gamers have griped about over the years. Players see the game differently from game designers. Game designers read into things too much all to often, and as a result we have rule changes & system overhauls far too often. We went through 2 system changes & countless updates & erratta in just over 7yrs. I honestly can't see how WotC employees can tell us that marketing & pressure from the parent company Hasbro hasn't influence creating a new money making idea.

tesral
03-23-2008, 06:11 PM
You don't.

He don't know me very well.




Yay, the world is big enough for both of us. What has this got do with Paizo's future publishing plans?


That they have my attention at the least. And no, I don't "hate" Lizards. I think they are vastly mistaken, but that does not translate to "hate". Hate is saved for those that truly deserve it. Currently no one of my acquaintance.

boulet
03-23-2008, 06:41 PM
I'm not really concerned by the topic here, still I'm reading all across the board. I love the courtesy and nice atmosphere that characterize PnPG so far.

I'd like to say to Gary : if someone's opinions are offensive or annoying to you, you always have the option to ignore his posts. It's one of the features of the board. Now others might find his opinion interesting and I don't understand why he should be censored. His language is polite and his posts make sense. He's many miles away of being a troll. So please keep the finger pointing for other forums where they are a common thing and let's keep friendly.

Digital Arcanist
03-23-2008, 07:07 PM
I'd like to say to Gary : if someone's opinions are offensive or annoying to you, you always have the option to ignore his posts. It's one of the features of the board. Now others might find his opinion interesting and I don't understand why he should be censored. His language is polite and his posts make sense. He's many miles away of being a troll. So please keep the finger pointing for other forums where they are a common thing and let's keep friendly.

If anyone has something to say to another here then take it to a private post. If you have a problem, then take it to a moderator. In the immortal words of an Elder Evil, "If you have a problem, look I'll solve it. Now check out my hook while the DJ revolves it."

Consider all embers extinguished!!!

gdmcbride
03-23-2008, 11:30 PM
not to mention that since they revoked the dungeon and dragon license, it'll occur to some wiseacre to suggest that they revoke the ogl, ending the days of 3.5 support without a paid license. i certainly hope not, however.

The OGL is not revokable. I'll warn you right now, what follows is legalese.

To quote from the document itself
"9. Updating the License: Wizards or its designated Agents may publish updated versions of this License. You may use any authorized version of this License to copy, modify and distribute any Open Game Content originally distributed under any version of this License."

Wizards may update the license, but you MAY USE ANY AUTHORIZED VERSION (emphasis mine).

The OGL is with us forever. What WOTC can stop doing is releasing an Open Game Content (and with the GSL on the horizon this seems likely -- Open Game Content will probably be called something else and only be compatible with the GSL not the OGL). But there is no way for them to get rid of content once it is declared open and the 3.5 SRD is definitely open.

Gary

gdmcbride
03-24-2008, 12:06 AM
He don't know me very well.

That they have my attention at the least. And no, I don't "hate" Lizards. I think they are vastly mistaken, but that does not translate to "hate". Hate is saved for those that truly deserve it. Currently no one of my acquaintance.

I am not angry and I meant no personal offense. I merely did not wish to see this discussion derailed. It appears to have gotten back on track, so no foul.

And you are correct. I don't know you and you do not know me. I only know you from your posts.

If someone on an OS board only referred to Microsoft as Microsh*t or Microshaft, I would assume they hate Microsoft. You have an insulting name for 'Lizard's and deride them frequently. When asked to say something nice about WOTC, weren't you the one who said that they hadn't kicked a kitten today?

I apologize for assuming you hate Wizards of the Coast. But it is the impression I get from your posts.

Gary

tesral
03-24-2008, 12:50 PM
If someone on an OS board only referred to Microsoft as Microsh*t or Microshaft, I would assume they hate Microsoft. You have an insulting name for 'Lizard's and deride them frequently. When asked to say something nice about WOTC, weren't you the one who said that they hadn't kicked a kitten today?

I apologize for assuming you hate Wizards of the Coast. But it is the impression I get from your posts.

Gary

As I explained once before, I like reptiles. The "Lizards" thing is an old in joke from back in the day I don't feel like typing the explaination out at the foot of every post.

fmitchell
03-24-2008, 03:23 PM
Perhaps we need a Tesral FAQ for new or less frequent posters.

cplmac
03-24-2008, 08:55 PM
Perhaps we need a Tesral FAQ for new or less frequent posters.

:lol: That would be an interesting read.

I'm sure that in the decades that tesral has been gaming, he has dealt with this same thread issue with each revision of the game. I'm sure the same comments and replies would hold true for each time.:hail:

tesral
03-25-2008, 12:05 PM
:lol: That would be an interesting read.

I'm sure that in the decades that tesral has been gaming, he has dealt with this same thread issue with each revision of the game. I'm sure the same comments and replies would hold true for each time.

We didn't have this Internet thingy when AD&D came out. Heck I couldn't afford a computer until what, 87, 89, and was behind the curve on power and tech till 95. I didn't get itno BBSs until 91, and the Internet until 95.

And no the answers would not be the same.

Farcaster
03-25-2008, 12:18 PM
I didn't get itno BBSs until 91, and the Internet until 95.

Bwah ha! I beat ya on that one. :D I started up in the BBS world in 1989. By 1990, I had my own BBS up and running using WWIV. Ah, those were the days. 2400 baud.. pure power. Actually, I remember upgrading from the 300baud modem on my Commodore to a 1200 baud modem and being completely flabbergasted at the speed. And 14,400 blew me away. Now, dialup speeds and even DSL are intolerably slow for me.

tesral
03-25-2008, 01:11 PM
I remember upgrading from the 300baud modem on my Commodore to a 1200 baud modem and being completely flabbergasted at the speed. And 14,400 blew me a way. Now, dialup speeds and even DSL are intolerably slow for me.

Yep the C-64 and 1200 baud. Them where the days.

nijineko
03-26-2008, 07:16 AM
The OGL is not revokable. I'll warn you right now, what follows is legalese.

To quote from the document itself
"9. Updating the License: Wizards or its designated Agents may publish updated versions of this License. You may use any authorized version of this License to copy, modify and distribute any Open Game Content originally distributed under any version of this License."

Wizards may update the license, but you MAY USE ANY AUTHORIZED VERSION (emphasis mine).

The OGL is with us forever. What WOTC can stop doing is releasing an Open Game Content (and with the GSL on the horizon this seems likely -- Open Game Content will probably be called something else and only be compatible with the GSL not the OGL). But there is no way for them to get rid of content once it is declared open and the 3.5 SRD is definitely open.

Gary

and i noticed, reading through it, that the license granted was "perpetual". kinda hard to revoke. be interesting to see how they handle that one. what with mutants & masterminds and pathfinder and all. thanks for the quote. =D wonder what happens when they "unauthorize" it?

tesral
03-26-2008, 08:27 AM
and i noticed, reading through it, that the license granted was "perpetual". kinda hard to revoke. be interesting to see how they handle that one. what with mutants & masterminds and pathfinder and all. thanks for the quote. =D wonder what happens when they "unauthorize" it?

People that want to play it keep playing it. "Authorized" is not some magical word that make a thing work. It makes it better in some eyes, but those are the people headed to 4th edition regardless.

boulet
04-07-2008, 02:49 PM
By the way there's an interview (http://feartheboot.libsyn.com/index.php?post_id=324271) of Erik Mona from Paizo Publishing on the Fear the Boot podcast.

fmitchell
04-07-2008, 03:03 PM
People that want to play it keep playing it. "Authorized" is not some magical word that make a thing work. It makes it better in some eyes, but those are the people headed to 4th edition regardless.

No, but it does matter to companies who want to write adventures and supplements for OGL content but can't outspend WotC on lawyers. Or even fans who want to post their adventures and house rules on teh Interwebz. (Remember T$R?)

I guess it's possible for a game to survive as samizdat, but I don't think it's likely.

tesral
04-07-2008, 10:37 PM
No, but it does matter to companies who want to write adventures and supplements for OGL content but can't outspend WotC on lawyers. Or even fans who want to post their adventures and house rules on teh Interwebz. (Remember T$R?)

I guess it's possible for a game to survive as samizdat, but I don't think it's likely.

I remember TSR very well, and the fact you spell it "T$R" also tells me you remember. They took a good long aim at their fan base and blew a huge hole in themselves. We reguard them in the past tense. We the gamers are still here.

Frankly we don't need the gaming companies, they need us. The basics are already there, I have them. I need never buy another gaming product again to keep gaming the rest of my life. I don't need them to teach someone else the game, or even pass the books down to that someone. We do not need them.

Perhaps the current crop of gaming suppliers will realize that it is and always has been a buyer's market. Games are a want, not a need. Push comes to shove and I stop buying gaming bits and concentrate on using what I have and making my own.

The imperious attitude of "T$R" in the 80s was their downfall. They got the mistakent impression that their word was law, and we needed them.

Far from the case.

Inquisitor Tremayne
04-08-2008, 10:18 AM
Who's going to buy/play Pathfinder 3.x?

fmitchell
04-08-2008, 12:53 PM
Who's going to buy/play Pathfinder 3.x?

Do you mean, "Who on these boards will play the Pathfinder RPG?", or "Who in the whole wide world would play the Pathfinder RPG?"

fmitchell
04-08-2008, 01:17 PM
Frankly we don't need the gaming companies, they need us. The basics are already there, I have them. I need never buy another gaming product again to keep gaming the rest of my life. I don't need them to teach someone else the game, or even pass the books down to that someone. We do not need them.

Need, no. But they're really convenient, for those of us who are short on time but somewhat long on money. Many of us have jobs, families, and other commitments that distract us from gaming, and consequently can't spend large amounts of time coming up with adventures and background (not to mention props and game aids) for our RPGs. For consumers, the "RPG business" means more available material we can use and adapt.

Producers of RPG materials likewise have to allocate their time between their hobby and their jobs, families, and other distractions. If they're somehow compensated for the time writing up scenarios and stats so that others can understand them, the decision to spend that time becomes easier. If they can actually earn a living doing so, even better.

If all those businesses dried up, or became too annoying to deal with, yes the hobby would survive. But it would take more of a time commitment ... and recruiting new players would be harder if they though of D&D as "that thing old guys played in the 80's".

Even worse -- and going back to the nightmare OGL scenario -- if game materials for your favorite game dried up and lawyers of a big company would sue anyone who posted such materials, even for free, you'd be totally on your own playing said game. Which might not scare people who have loads of free time, but it would certainly bother me ... at least until I found a new favorite game with actual support.

Inquisitor Tremayne
04-08-2008, 01:24 PM
Do you mean, "Who on these boards will play the Pathfinder RPG?", or "Who in the whole wide world would play the Pathfinder RPG?"

Both!:D

No really, I mean out of those who are participating in this discussion.

amardolem
04-09-2008, 06:56 AM
I'm in 2 alpha tests right now. A play by post, an online via maptool/skype game, and I'm going to try and DM a face to face game to test it's backward compatibility running "the Savage Tide" from Dungeon magazine with some people that haven't played too many RPg's before just to see if it's intuitive for beginnners. So far I've found it to go as smoothly as "regular" 3.5. The DM (I play in both games) seems to like the the CMB (which is combat Maneuver boneus) as opposed to the old grapple/bull rush rules for speed. In one of the games I had to convert a 3rd level wizard over to the new system and though easy there were a few things that I had built in to a purpose (School: Evoc) and was just beginning to enjoy (at 3rd) that were a little disconcerting to just trash and remake, but I'm over it. Hey, gaming=fun so waht evere floats yer boat, right?

tesral
04-09-2008, 07:16 AM
Need, no. But they're really convenient, for those of us who are short on time but somewhat long on money. Many of us have jobs, families, and other commitments that distract us from gaming, and consequently can't spend large amounts of time coming up with adventures and background (not to mention props and game aids) for our RPGs. For consumers, the "RPG business" means more available material we can use and adapt.

Yes they are nice to have. But the simple fact is they need us much more than we need them and it is worthwhile to remember who is dominant in the relationship, and occasionally remind them when they are getting too large a head.




Even worse -- and going back to the nightmare OGL scenario -- if game materials for your favorite game dried up and lawyers of a big company would sue anyone who posted such materials, even for free, you'd be totally on your own playing said game. Which might not scare people who have loads of free time, but it would certainly bother me ... at least until I found a new favorite game with actual support.

Funny thing but Lawyers cost money and if you are not selling product, you have none. The OGL rather prevents it from drying up. It frankly shocked my socks off when I read it. It has to be one of the most open, I mean really open Licenses out there.

fmitchell
04-09-2008, 12:02 PM
Funny thing but Lawyers cost money and if you are not selling product, you have none.

Tell that to SCO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCO_Group).

But this is primarily theoretical. Third party 3.x material is a drop in the ocean to WotC. It's more likely, if 4e fails, that Hasbro/WotC will simply cut D&D loose. Why pour good money after bad?


The OGL rather prevents it from drying up. It frankly shocked my socks off when I read it. It has to be one of the most open, I mean really open Licenses out there.

True. I don't think it's at all likely WotC would try to rescind the 3.x OGL, given an uphill legal battle. Their current strategy seems to be "look at our new shiny thing".

Kilrex
04-09-2008, 05:22 PM
Who's going to buy/play Pathfinder 3.x?

Me!

tesral
04-10-2008, 12:15 AM
Tell that to SCO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCO_Group).

The have someone else (starts with "M") paying their bill. Believe me, I know all about that boondoggle. A discussion for slashdot I think. (Oh, they don't have discussions, just statements and arguments.)





True. I don't think it's at all likely WotC would try to rescind the 3.x OGL, given an uphill legal battle. Their current strategy seems to be "look at our new shiny thing".

That will get all the ferrets, but not the old dogs.

Digital Arcanist
04-10-2008, 12:30 AM
I will playing the Pathfinder RPG. I found the Pathfinder series to be entertaining and the Runelords to be a nice diversion. I am looking forward to the next 6 Pathfinder books.

What could be cooler than fighting a clan of in-bred ogres?

RealmsDM
04-13-2008, 08:41 AM
I will playing the Pathfinder RPG. I found the Pathfinder series to be entertaining and the Runelords to be a nice diversion. I am looking forward to the next 6 Pathfinder books.

What could be cooler than fighting a clan of in-bred ogres?


Fighting TWO clans of in-bred ogres!!!! :heh:

mrken
04-13-2008, 09:46 AM
When I cut them (T$R) loose I never really looked back. Sometimes I would game with friends who were all enamored with the NEW TSR, but I was not enticed to go backwards. By that time I had enough of a start on a campaign that it just snowballed. Occasionally I would find an inspiring piece of source material that would add to what I was already doing that the steady stream of material from that new kid/juggernaut WotC was flooding my LGS with. When my son began to GM for his friends I saw that he tended to GM as I did but he needed a rule set and the occasional adventure supplement like I would grab, just on a more frequent basis. Like Tesral said, “That will get all the ferrets, but not the old dogs.”

boulet
04-13-2008, 03:46 PM
the steady stream of material from that new kid/juggernaut WotC was flooding my LGS with.
What's a LGS ?

fmitchell
04-13-2008, 04:49 PM
What's a LGS ?

Local Gaming Store. Sometimes called a FLGS (Friendly Local Gaming Store), although not all of them are friendly, especially to new gamers.

gdmcbride
04-13-2008, 04:54 PM
Who's going to buy/play Pathfinder 3.x?

I am definitely going to buy it.

Only then will I be able to tell you if I'm going to play it. I'll say this ... though I very much like Paizo's adventures, I am really pretty worn on 3.5 itself. Many people are clamoring for backward compatibility. What will make Pathfinder the RPG (as opposed to the monthly product) really great for me is if it departs from 3.5 and fixes some of its most heinous problems.

Gary

tesral
04-13-2008, 09:48 PM
What will make Pathfinder the RPG (as opposed to the monthly product) really great for me is if it departs from 3.5 and fixes some of its most heinous problems.

But only if they avoid creating new ones in the process.