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boulet
02-22-2008, 12:00 PM
Tesral and Drohem just discussed this in an other thread


Quote:
Originally Posted by Drohem http://www.penandpapergames.com/forums/Greys/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.penandpapergames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=24588#post24588)
... and the Wealth system. No more copper counting and needing an account for my characters. Who wants to RPG a mortgage, credit card debit, monthly bills, medical expenses, taxes, etc. Yuck!

Now that part I like. I think the wealth system is the best thing in the whole bloody book. All Heroic game players need bow to d20 Modern if for that and that alone. I'll ruthlessly adopt that to every Heroic game I play.

I am curious about your enthusiasm and would appreciate if you guys could develop and explain what it is about exactly :)

Drohem
02-22-2008, 12:11 PM
Just like 3.5 Dungeons & Dragons has the free SRD, d20 Modern also has a free SRD.

This is from the d20 Modern SRD:

http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/msrd/msrdwealth.rtf

This is whole d20 Modern SRD:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/msrd

In case you are not aware of the 3.5 D&D SRD, here it is as well:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35

SRD= system reference document

Enjoy! :)

Drohem
02-22-2008, 12:16 PM
I am curious about your enthusiasm and would appreciate if you guys could develop and explain what it is about exactly :)


In a nutshell, you no longer count individual dollars and cents for your characters. Wealth is a fluid stat (number) which changes when certain purchases are made and levels are gained.

Basically, if the purchase DC of a particular item is less than your current Wealth score, then you buy it and it doesn't affect your Wealth Score. If you want to purchase something higher than you current Wealth Score, then your Wealth Score will decrease. At each level gained, you make a Profession skill check to gain more Wealth points to add to your Wealth Score.

So you don't have to worry about tallying a movie and dinner off your character's money. It really takes away the 'kill them and steal their wallet' mentality from the game. Sure, you could jack someone's wallet, but it isn't going to really affect your Wealth Score. It takes the bean counting out of your modern RPG games.

tesral
02-22-2008, 12:35 PM
So you don't have to worry about tallying a movie and dinner off your character's money. It really takes away the 'kill them and steal their wallet' mentality from the game. Sure, you could jack someone's wallet, but it isn't going to really affect your Wealth Score. It takes the bean counting out of your modern RPG games.

And lord the beans. When I consider the state of finances today. You would spend entire sessions playing d20 Accountants.

That is why I like it so much. It makes all of that, go away without having to worry about it.

Under your wealth, you buy it. Over your wealth, you have to make a roll (savings) to get it and it lowers your weath score by one. (tapped out) Likewise pulling in a big haul can increase your wealth score as well as the profession rolls at leveling.

And the character (player) never has to worrry about credit cards, mutual funds, chump change, etc..

boulet
02-22-2008, 12:42 PM
Ok so compared to the resource merit of World of Darkness, this is a mandatory trait, it evolves quite often during a play time and it is linked to the character level which is a common way to increase wealth.

It's not bad I must say. So if a PC wanted to own a vehicle/horse at the beginning of a scenario he would have to do a wealth check just like if he was to buy it later during the game ? Unlike WoD resource were the merit represent your general average wealth and you either have sth or not, plus a form of regular income generated by this wealth. Tell me if I'm wrong in my understanding.


Under your wealth, you buy it. Over your wealth, you have to make a roll (savings) to get it and it lowers your weath score by one. (tapped out) Likewise pulling in a big haul can increase your wealth score as well as the profession rolls at leveling.
Just to help me have a little more concrete idea of the rule... So let's say a beginer PC in a fantasy game with a "middle class" starting occupation wants to have a horse. Can you tell me typical values for this case ?

Now there's always a player trying to pervert a system: what do you do about a player who buys dozens of items that he can afford (no wealth check required) and then try to sell them and artificially increase his wealth ?

Drohem
02-22-2008, 01:42 PM
Well, the Wealth system is only in the d20 Modern Core game, and not fantasy 3.5 Dungeons & Dragons.

A 1st level d20 Modern characters Wealth Score is 2d4 + occupation bonus. A character can get an extra bonus starting Wealth with the Windfall feat, and if they have any ranks in the Profession skill.

So, a 1st level character is looking of a max Wealth Score of about 15 (give or take). The purchase DC for an economy sedan (Dodge Neon) is 26.

So, in order to buy the car at 1st level, they will more than likely have to take a 10 or 20, which allowable by the rules. Their Wealth Score is going to decrease fairly significantly for purchasing a car at 1st level though:

Purchase DC is 15+ = Wealth -1
If DC is 1-10 points higher than current Wealth = Wealth -1
If DC is 11-15 higher = Wealth -1d6
If DC is 16+ higher = Wealth -2d6

So, depending on starting Wealth Score, they could lose anywhere from 2-13 Wealth points.

Wealth can never be reduced below zero.

A player can purchase anything that has a purchase DC equal to or below their current Wealth. The problem with a 1st character is that their Wealth Score isn't going to be that high (usually 3-10), and there aren't many things that have a purchase DC that low. But the things that are, sure, no problem they can purchase as many as they want.

Take a look at the Equipment section of the d20 Modern SRD to get a feel of the purchase DC for items, services, and weapons.

It is recommended to purchase everything you want that is equal to or below your current Wealth Score before you attempt to purchase items above your current Wealth because the purchase will decrease your Wealth Score.

jade von delioch
02-22-2008, 03:47 PM
this basic idea was first developed (as far as i have seen) back when they put out the saga system for dragonlance. There you got a wealth score and it would either increase or decrease depending on how much you spent or how much you acquired.
I like the idea but i can take some of the fun out of going to town and seeing the money changer, jeweler, and other such businesses to trade in the spoils for something more useful.

Thayan
02-22-2008, 05:57 PM
this basic idea was first developed (as far as i have seen) back when they put out the saga system for dragonlance. There you got a wealth score and it would either increase or decrease depending on how much you spent or how much you acquired.
I like the idea but i can take some of the fun out of going to town and seeing the money changer, jeweler, and other such businesses to trade in the spoils for something more useful.


Its a nice mechanic if you dont want to deal with stuff... But if you were like my old group who opened a trading colony and looked for evenings of DnD: The accountant every 4-6 weeks to figure out how much in exports you have.. Then you prefer the regular way

jade von delioch
02-22-2008, 07:07 PM
i don't mind that to much, i played a mage who ended up being a specialize merchant with 10% ownership of a small alchemy shop. I figured that since i find myself in weird situations that involve killing that that i could turn around and that i should make a business out of it.

cplmac
02-22-2008, 07:31 PM
In a nutshell, you no longer count individual dollars and cents for your characters. Wealth is a fluid stat (number) which changes when certain purchases are made and levels are gained.

Basically, if the purchase DC of a particular item is less than your current Wealth score, then you buy it and it doesn't affect your Wealth Score. If you want to purchase something higher than you current Wealth Score, then your Wealth Score will decrease. At each level gained, you make a Profession skill check to gain more Wealth points to add to your Wealth Score.

So you don't have to worry about tallying a movie and dinner off your character's money. It really takes away the 'kill them and steal their wallet' mentality from the game. Sure, you could jack someone's wallet, but it isn't going to really affect your Wealth Score. It takes the bean counting out of your modern RPG games.


And lord the beans. When I consider the state of finances today. You would spend entire sessions playing d20 Accountants.

That is why I like it so much. It makes all of that, go away without having to worry about it.

Under your wealth, you buy it. Over your wealth, you have to make a roll (savings) to get it and it lowers your weath score by one. (tapped out) Likewise pulling in a big haul can increase your wealth score as well as the profession rolls at leveling.

And the character (player) never has to worrry about credit cards, mutual funds, chump change, etc..


So as I understand it, the character can buy anything and not have to actually have the funds to buy it. Seems that makes the party not have to "work" to obtain an expensive item that they would like to have. I like when they have to choose which item of the four that they want to spend the money on. Or is this the bean counter in me coming out?

Drohem
02-22-2008, 07:35 PM
So as I understand it, the character can buy anything and not have to actually have the funds to buy it. Seems that makes the party not have to "work" to obtain an expensive item that they would like to have. I like when they have to choose which item of the four that they want to spend the money on. Or is this the bean counter in me coming out?

The Wealth Score represents the funds, assets, savings, income, etc. to purchase things.

TAROT
02-22-2008, 11:20 PM
Well, the Wealth system is only in the d20 Modern Core game, and not fantasy 3.5 Dungeons & Dragons.

For fantasy d20/OGL with Wealth system:

Blue Rose
Grim Tales
True 20
Second World d20
A Game of Thrones

Also, Mutants & Masterminds.

BESM d20 & SAS d20 use a Wealth Attribute not dissimilar to WoD Resources.

jade von delioch
02-23-2008, 12:02 AM
Just to help me have a little more concrete idea of the rule... So let's say a beginer PC in a fantasy game with a "middle class" starting occupation wants to have a horse. Can you tell me typical values for this case ?


In a medieval world a horse would cost a good bit of gold, and thats in a world where you make- as a commoner- a couple of silver a month.

Farcaster
02-23-2008, 01:07 AM
Wealth can never be reduced below zero.

Its too bad the real world doesn't operate like that. :D

I do like the concept of the wealth system, particularly in a modern or futuristic type game. I've never played d20 Modern, but the original Marvel Superheroes also had this concept. My very first Marvel character was a high powered CEO (in his off time from saving the universe, of course). He never had to worry about money.

You say that the wealth level can't go below zero, but what about the concept of debt? Sure, a college grad just starting out probably can't afford to buy that new car you mentioned, but somone is bound to give him a loan. Heck, he probably already has a student loan going. Does the system allow for taking on this kind of long term debt that perhaps suppresses your wealth level during the loan term?

It is, after all, the modern and definitively American way to live past your means.


It is recommended to purchase everything you want that is equal to or below your current Wealth Score before you attempt to purchase items above your current Wealth because the purchase will decrease your Wealth Score.

See, personally, as a GM, I'd probably group purchases together in a certain period and deduct the highest purchases from the top first. Definitely if they were closely grouped together.


But if you were like my old group who opened a trading colony and looked for evenings of DnD: The accountant every 4-6 weeks to figure out how much in exports you have..

I remember well a Mechwarrior / Battletech game that I played in where we were running a merc company. One of our members took great pleasure in working the finances -- upkeep, salaries, upgrades, all of it. Actually, since his character owned the Merc company, he actually ended up being in control of giving my character raises and bonuses when I performed well on the battlefield. In this case, I was glad we didn't gloss over the details. It added something to the game... at least as long as it was someone else taking care of all the details. Personally, my character was mostly interested in piloting his Atlas and getting into trouble off the battlefield. :D

Drohem
02-23-2008, 02:34 AM
You say that the wealth level can't go below zero, but what about the concept of debt?

[snip]

See, personally, as a GM, I'd probably group purchases together in a certain period and deduct the highest purchases from the top first. Definitely if they were closely grouped together.



In d20 Modern, debt is factored into the Wealth Score and system.

Once you played and got a feel for the d20 Modern game and its Wealth system, I'm sure you'd change your mind on making characters do a Wealth check on purchase DCs higher than their current Wealth Score. In fact, the rulebook explicitly tells you to purchase items that are equal or lower than current Wealth Score first, and then to purchase items over your Wealth or purchase DC of 14+ after.

nijineko
02-23-2008, 07:26 AM
i think it's a pretty useful idea idea. if someone was inclined to abuse it overly much, then i would start making them track things in more detail, but only that player, or maybe saddle them with some flaws like 'pack-rat' or other in-game 'reward'. otherwise, why not? i wouldn't apply it to a fantasy game... counting gold pieces is too much a part of the fantasy experience for me. ^^

boulet
02-23-2008, 08:44 AM
i wouldn't apply it to a fantasy game... counting gold pieces is too much a part of the fantasy experience for me. ^^I feel quite the same. I'd rather keep it for modern setting. But when it comes to Fantasy I like to remind players a lot how cumbersome coins are :D

nijineko
02-23-2008, 10:53 AM
yes, that much coinage really does weigh more than your portable hole can carry.... (not that i've ever given that much in coin at once, but you get the idea.)

Drohem
02-23-2008, 03:14 PM
Yeah, coinage is a staple of fantasy gaming, and I keep it in my fantasy games.

nijineko
02-24-2008, 12:22 AM
especially since all the fantasy campaigns i'm in are converted 1st and 2nd ed adventures! ^^

rabkala
02-24-2008, 03:01 PM
I love the wealth system in d20 modern. I have only had one player actively try to break and abuse it. Then of course I had to start giving penalties for trying to carry too much, things were stolen from their stockpile he tried to build, time was far more restrictive, etc.

I have considered doing it in a couple D&D games to encourage role play instead of the 'let's kill stuff and take the money' mindset that comes with fantasy coinage. I think it could greatly influence motivation if you take away the sure thing accumulation of coinage. I have played in many groups in fantasy games that would kill anything just for a couple coppers. Some groups try to take every weapon and mundane item out of areas with wagons, all those cheap things add up quickly.

Jonathan Kwiat
02-24-2008, 07:30 PM
When I, briefly, played RPGA at Nuetral Ground gold pieces was Living Greyhawk's ultimate metaphor or so it seemed.

Almost Everything could be reduced to gold pieces and the rest was statistics / percentages / and future options.

I learned to use the spread-sheet program on my old Dell desktop in ways I previously did not imagine it could be.

Gold was the fungible liquid captial that could be, as a rule of thumb converted to XP by the formula 5 XP =1 GP

and Game Time generates on average Blank XP at this Level at this...

etc.

I don't know somehow it seemed in a game like that it would all convert in my spreadsheet into gold in the end.

That's why I stopped playing it. I did not want to know WHY in the DMG certain magic items cost certain amounts of gold to make, while buffing those items were more expensive etc.

It all seemed to involve Living GreyHawk and gold. I started feeling poor until I played D20 modern with wealth option then I felt relaxed when we played.

As a DMG management tool gold pieces seems to work in the fantasy D&D world but I certainly don't endorse it because often times you next need to start enforcing encumburance and volume so the prices on the portable holes work.

tesral
02-24-2008, 10:22 PM
I remember well a Mechwarrior / Battletech game that I played in where we were running a merc company. One of our members took great pleasure in working the finances -- upkeep, salaries, upgrades, all of it. Actually, since his character owned the Merc company, he actually ended up being in control of giving my character raises and bonuses when I performed well on the battlefield. In this case, I was glad we didn't gloss over the details. It added something to the game... at least as long as it was someone else taking care of all the details. Personally, my character was mostly interested in piloting his Atlas and getting into trouble off the battlefield. :D

In games where money matters I would not use "wealth". Half the fun of D&D is the piles of gold. But for most modern/future games I like wealth. I have enough "fun" balancing my checkbook and paying off the credit cards. I don't want my Detective character to have to deal with it too.

I think wealth is a good tool Like any tool you need to use it correctly.

Jonathan Kwiat
02-25-2008, 07:30 AM
I have enough "fun" balancing my checkbook and paying off the credit cards. I don't want my Detective character to have to deal with it too.

I think wealth is a good tool Like any tool you need to use it correctly.

Ditto one of my banks just told me its been taken over and I'll need a new ATM card, and must master a new programming interface, all for my own good.

I love to join new campaign settings but I make engough excel sheets to handle my own financial transactions. I mean doing your taxes by yourself is a thrill right then and there.

I try to pretend I am a lawful good money hungry Dwarf when I fill it out.

boulet
02-25-2008, 08:14 AM
I try to pretend I am a lawful good money hungry Dwarf when I fill it out.
I think if you imagine a Balrog coming to gnaw your assets it would make the picture even more acurate :D

tesral
02-25-2008, 12:52 PM
I think if you imagine a Balrog coming to gnaw your assets it would make the picture even more acurate :D

A Balrog isn't evil enough for the Infernal Robbery Service.

cplmac
02-25-2008, 09:47 PM
Yeah, coinage is a staple of fantasy gaming, and I keep it in my fantasy games.


Although a way around the huge number of coins is to have gems or other items that can be used for "trade".

boulet
02-25-2008, 09:50 PM
Although a way around the huge number of coins is to have gems or other items that can be used for "trade".True enough, but there's always the tough moment when all you need is food and the farmer's wife looks at you like you're from Mars when you offer to buy bread and eggs with a sapphire :D

tesral
02-26-2008, 09:15 AM
True enough, but there's always the tough moment when all you need is food and the farmer's wife looks at you like you're from Mars when you offer to buy bread and eggs with a sapphire :D


For which the solution is to not use one wealth carrying method above any other. Reduce the bulk of your wealth to gems, but carry enough coinage to live on. Seems simple to me.

rabkala
02-26-2008, 08:40 PM
True enough, but there's always the tough moment when all you need is food and the farmer's wife looks at you like you're from Mars when you offer to buy bread and eggs with a sapphire :D
I thought that is when you buy the farmer's wife...

cplmac
02-27-2008, 03:28 PM
True enough, but there's always the tough moment when all you need is food and the farmer's wife looks at you like you're from Mars when you offer to buy bread and eggs with a sapphire :D


For which the solution is to not use one wealth carrying method above any other. Reduce the bulk of your wealth to gems, but carry enough coinage to live on. Seems simple to me.


I thought that is when you buy the farmer's wife...


Although, depending on the wife's looks, the farmer might be either mad:mad: or glad :eek:!

nijineko
03-01-2008, 11:39 AM
no that's when they give you a nice meal, a nice bed, and a nice conk on the head whilst thou sleepest. farmer's have all sorts of stuff that gets "left" behind by this adventurer or that delver.... ;D seriously! if you don't believe me, then go find and watch "the seven samurai" directed by akira kurosawa, and starring toshiro mifune, among others. =D

boulet
03-01-2008, 01:42 PM
Toshiro Mifune ! * sigh *

Definitely my favorite actor ever... Completely off topic. Or maybe not. This guy have been able to play roles of "samurai wanna be" as well as solemn daimyos. Jesters or masters. Actors of this amplitude have really given me the feel for role playing in their more traditional comedian but effective kind of way.

tesral
03-03-2008, 09:27 AM
Toshiro Mifune ! * sigh *

Definitely my favorite actor ever... Completely off topic. Or maybe not. This guy have been able to play roles of "samurai wanna be" as well as solemn daimyos. Jesters or masters. Actors of this amplitude have really given me the feel for role playing in their more traditional comedian but effective kind of way.

It was wisely said that if Toshiro Mifune had spoken English he would not have been the greatest actor in Japan, alone.

nijineko
03-04-2008, 01:54 AM
heck, he could have memorized his lines in english, and he still would have been a great actor. the more impressive of his talents were the non-verbal stuff. the man could deliver a scene! when he chased a group around the set single-handedly... you believed it! (group intimidate check? you betcha!)