Question for mini's wargamers

[Inquisitor Tremayne]

Mass combat.

I want to import some troop scale mass combat rules over to Star Wars Saga edition. I figure the best way would be to look at various wargame's rules.

So, can anyone offer some glimpses into various wargames and how mass combats playout?

[Drohem]

I would recommend looking at 3e GURPS mass combat system. It's easily convertable to d20 System. Of course, this is only if you want to use a fairly abstract mass combat system to insert into your SWSE game. If you really want hardcore minature combat inserted, then maybe you should check out the Star Wars minature system.

The leader in the battle just replaces GURPS Strategy checks with d20 System Knowledge (tactics) checks.

Create a Battle skill based off Wisdom, and make it a class skill for Soldiers.

Your Survival/Glory checks are based off Battle skill or best weapon attack bonus (or the one you are using in the combat).

You take half of either the Battle skill or best weapon attack bonus, and half goes to Survival check and half to Glory check.

Also, you may take up to your BAB as a +/- bonus to Survival and Glory rolls.

For example:

Joe Stormtrooper is 6th Soldier with BAB +6, Dex 16, and Wis 14. He has a Battle skill of +6 (4 ranks, Wis +2). He is using his mastercraft blaster rifle in the combat. His best attack, the blaster rifle, is +10 (BAB +6, Dex +3, mastercraft +1).

So, in the battle he will use +10 for his Survival/Glory rolls. His Survival is +5 and his Glory is +5.

He wants to survive the battle and doesn't care about glory; he'll leave that to the chumps. So, he is going to apply his full BAB bonus to his Survival check, and subtract his full BAB bonus from his Glory check.

So, his final Survival check for the battle is +11, and his total Glory check for the battle is -1.

Now, you can leave the damage dice as d6s, or convert them to the average weapon dice being used by the opposing force.

We use this system for our d20 mass combats in our games. We use when we want to simulate a large scale combat, but not RPG fighting tons of opponents. We may use this in conjunction with a boss fight or small skirmish fight within the large battle as well.

[Farcaster]

Out of curiosity, IT, are your players going to be in control of some of these troops, or are they all NPCs?

[Inquisitor Tremayne]

well, they won't be NPCs so I imagine them as commanding some of these troops.

I want their PCs to be involved in tactical decisions/troop movements vs. the opposing forces. I'm just not sure how to do this.

Like if they move their troops to x position then y happens or if they move them to a position then b happens or if they are outfitted with D gear then they get a bonus of some sort to e.

Just want to get an idea of how mass combat works in other games to see if I can add some things to Saga.

The SW Mini's game is still not mass combat, you move all of your troops in alternating order with your opponent and perform each ones actions until all troops have acted and that concludes one round.

[Farcaster]

The problem that I have seen with war games is that many of them take a long, long time to resolve a single scenario or even round. Certainly, they are faster than using the complicated rules of the typical roleplaying game, but you're still probably going to add a lot of troop movement and combat resolution time.

What I do in my games is gloss over the mass combat element and put it in the background. I tend to thrust the PCs into the role of either commanders of the unit or more of an elite strike force pitting them directly again the enemy commanders. I then extrapolate how successful the group was to the success of the entire army. So, using that system, if the PCs perform really well, the army tends to perform really well. You can adjust the outcome of the entire battle based on the odds. If the odds were even, it wouldn't take as much for the PCs to throw the combat in their favor. If the odds were poor, then they better do pretty darn well, or come up with an excellent exit strategy to cover their troops tails for a retreat.

[Drohem]

The problem that I have seen with war games is that many of them take a long, long time to resolve a single scenario or even round.

I agree. That's why I recommended GURPS mass combat rules. It's streamlined for fast play, but it also includes a wide range of variables that account for all the details of a massive battle.

It has modifiers for terrain, troop type, troop quality, leader skill, number of troops, etc. It combines all these factors into modifiers that are applied to the leaders' opposed checks, and into the individual heroes' survival and glory of the battle.

[Inquisitor Tremayne]

I will for sure look up GURPS version.

Is it a separate sourcebook?

[Drohem]

I will for sure look up GURPS version.

Is it a separate sourcebook?

It was published in several 3e GURPS worldbooks (Conan, Vikings, Japan, etc.)

The most recent version is included in 3e GURPS Compendium II.

http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/Compendium2/

Here is a web link to an article in Roleplayer regarding GURPS Mass Combat system:

http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/Roleplayer/Roleplayer30/MassCombat-Land.html

This is the whole system. Compendiums I and II were compliations of various articles from Roleplayer magazine, this being one of them.

[tesral]

There is also my method of running 2 to 4 combats with opposing heros and basing the outcome of the battle on how well the PCs do. I would use the GURPS mass combat rules for a battle whose outcome matters, but the PCs are not a part of, but I don't like pinning a dramaic moment like a battle the PCs are in to a few die rolls.

Frankly, sometimes taking all night to run the battle is not a bad idea. I have had RPG sessions that got out the minis and terrain and were wargaming sessions. It depends on the kind of thing you players like.

I prefer to sketch the battle in broad terms, and play our little scenes with the PCs that will determine the outcome of the entire thing.

[Drohem]

Well, if the PCs aren't even involved in the battle, then I wouldn't use any system to determine the outcome. I would just determine the victorious side based upon how I wanted the campaign and storyline to unfold.

[gdmcbride]

Mass combat.

I want to import some troop scale mass combat rules over to Star Wars Saga edition. I figure the best way would be to look at various wargame's rules.

So, can anyone offer some glimpses into various wargames and how mass combats playout?

For a good example of how to handle narrative combat in an RPG, I recommend WOTC's 'Red Hand of Doom'.

WOTC does make Star Wars Miniature rules that they give away free on their web site you know designed for quick skirmish play. They also have rules for starships to support their space ship miniatures line. If the rules are too small scale -- just make every miniature represent 10 or 100 or 1000 troops. Leader miniatures represent a hero and his elite group of followers.

If you don't like WOTC's rules for some reason, I've heard good things about Stargrunt II by Ground Zero Games. It is very realistic though. I don't see it as being very Star Wars-esque.

You can always go to The Miniatures Page:
http://theminiaturespage.com/rules/scf/index.html
and look through their vast index of sci fi miniatures games in print.

Gary

[Skunkape]

I would say that the way to investigate the answer to this question is to decide how important the mass combat is going to be for the game. If you're more interested in the story and the players play a pivotal role in that story, approach the outcome of the mass combat as something that the players will directly affect.

Give the players one or more objectives that they need to accomplish and then depending on how they complete those objectives, describe the outcome of the mass combat. If you look at it from the concept of how the mass combat has always been handled in the Star Wars movies, the audience really only focuses on what's happening to the main characters.

Sure you see the fight going on in the background, but the main thrust of the movies is what's happening to the heroes. Personally, I feel that the best way to handle mass combat in a game is to follow a similar approach. Course, I prefer to be more of a story teller GM, so that's why I use that kind of an approach.

[tesral]

There really is a lack of good rules in the several thousand to a side catagory. We have plenty of tens to a hundred to a side rules.

[GBVenkman]

I have each PC command anywhere from 3 to 8 NPC troops as a squad.

They can split up, but I think it's best if they all represent one "platoon."

---each squad uses the PC's initiative.

---On the PC's turn, he moves his troops. The PC needs to be with his troops (flight if in fighters) to direct commands if they want to be in control of them.

---PCs then should use the combined fire method of attack which speeds everything up.

--- NPC of the specialized swquad have the same stats and HP which will also speed things up when it comes to HPs.

---Since the PCs are more specialized, this makes the players feel "special." hehe

Anyhow, it's fun this way, and if it gets too complicated, kill off NPCs as you go and resize the battle as you play.

After all, fights that involve so many should usually be done over "waves" of enemies, versus a static map position.