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View Full Version : Play by Post die rolling?



Maelstrom
02-08-2008, 07:52 AM
There has been some talk of having some wargames in the play by post section. When it comes to a wargame where two people are competing against each other, rather than a DM adjucating for players, the rolling of dice should be handled in an independant fashion. With that in mind, are there any ways to have public die rolls as part of a post? That way everyone can be confident that things are progressing fairly.

Riftwalker
02-08-2008, 09:32 AM
Suggested something dice rolling bbcodes back in October:

http://www.penandpapergames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3952

I know it's possible because I've seen it on other forums, but it's difficult to do because you need a database table for it.

Maelstrom
02-08-2008, 09:45 AM
That plugin you mentioned at http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showpost.php?p=994284&postcount=117 sounds pretty cool.

If thats tough to get in, it might be nice just to have a simpler (non-vBulletin) page that can be referenced, which players can use to specify who is rolling for what. That's probably too cumbersome, but I'm shooting in the dark since I haven't done more than a little php.

Hmm, what about having a random value that just shows up in a given post seeded on initial post date? I assume there's a way to produce a random number in php. It could even be just a mod function of a bunch of random numbers (date/post count/poster birth date, etc)

Riftwalker
02-08-2008, 10:19 AM
If you were able to do that in JavaScript, it seems like it could be easily added, because the bbcode substitution could then directly translate to HTML/Javascript.

Maelstrom
02-08-2008, 10:41 AM
Here's one.

http://forums.invisionize.com/index.php?autocom=tutorials&action=viewtutorial&id=533

Wouldn't something like this allow someone to edit the post and it would reroll the dice though?

Farcaster
02-08-2008, 11:39 AM
There is a much cleaner and more dynamic way to handle dice rolling using standard notation, i.e. 3d6+5x100. I'd rather use something that could translate that. There are a couple ways of approaching the problem of "rerolling"...

Do not allow edits of posts. This would prevent the situation of the dice expression being calculated more than once.
Only show the die result to the GM. The player wouldn't have any idea of what his result was, so he wouldn't have any incentive to reroll it.
Or, append the the results to the bottom of the post permanently. If the post is edited, then the original rolls are still retained.Which of those is most preferable?

Maelstrom
02-08-2008, 12:40 PM
There is a much cleaner and more dynamic way to handle dice rolling using standard notation, i.e. 3d6+5x100.

Standard notation sounds good to me. Will allow for most any system out there.



Do not allow edits of posts. This would prevent the situation of the dice expression being calculated more than once.


This would apply only to posts with the dice bbcode correct? If its all posts, that's definitely not an option. I have an endless habit of posting before getting my thoughts completely straight, so I'm always editing :)



Only show the die result to the GM. The player wouldn't have any idea of what his result was, so he wouldn't have any incentive to reroll it.


Works great for RPG games, but not so much for wargames where there isn't a judge. Also, could people use view source and pick out what the roll is?



Or, append the the results to the bottom of the post permanently. If the post is edited, then the original rolls are still retained.


I like this option the best. Sounds pretty classy!

nijineko
02-08-2008, 01:31 PM
i use crystalball lite (http://www.crystalballsoft.com/content/blogcategory/20/48/) for all my online dice rolling needs. cross platform compatible and lots of amazing features. however, it would not fit the needs of a play-by-post game, as enabling it to be tied into a board does not seem to be on the feature list at this time. my lone suggestion was not enough to spur development.

however... if enough people were to try crystalball lite, log into the forums, and then post that they wanted this feature.... ^^



as far as the options presented goes, i would have to vote for permanent appending of dice rolls. =D

Riftwalker
02-08-2008, 01:53 PM
Standard notation sounds good to me. Will allow for most any system out there.


I'm sure the parsing algorithm can be finessed by anyone with some level of programming experience, even if they don't know PHP.



This would apply only to posts with the dice bbcode correct? If its all posts, that's definitely not an option. I have an endless habit of posting before getting my thoughts completely straight, so I'm always editing :)


Likewise. I'd prefer to retain the ability to edit posts, because I'm a grammar/spelling nazi.



Works great for RPG games, but not so much for wargames where there isn't a judge. Also, could people use view source and pick out what the roll is?


Good point.



I like this option the best. Sounds pretty classy!

You could even wrap it in a set of [ hide ] tags like this:


Dice results:
d20 + 5: 14 + 5 -> 19
2d4 + 2: 3 + 1 + 2 -> 6

Farcaster
02-08-2008, 03:00 PM
Works great for RPG games, but not so much for wargames where there isn't a judge. Also, could people use view source and pick out what the roll is?
No, the "hiding" would be handled on the back end, so they could not see what the roll was.



I like this option the best. Sounds pretty classy!
Yeah, I think appending the dice rolls to the post permanently is probably the most likely to be useful to most GMs and situations.

Maelstrom
02-08-2008, 03:10 PM
Excellent! Thanks again for your responsiveness, Farcaster. This is a pretty fun playground you've built here.

Riftwalker
02-08-2008, 11:14 PM
So this is on the list? Awesome!

Mulsiphix
02-09-2008, 12:58 PM
I've actually considered running some BattleTech play by post games since I arrived here and saw PBP games were a part of the forum. The lack of a dice roller, one that could not be manipulated, is pretty much the only reason I never got a game together. I think the results should be appended to the end of the post and post editing should still be possible. I too edit my posts on a regular basis so editing is crucial. Especially in a format where people are RP'ing and want to revise something. I do this a lot when writing in general.

I think this is a pretty big feature. That is I think its presence would get even more people playing PBP games here. Any idea if you can implement a system that appends the result permanently to the bottom of a post Farcaster? If you can, any idea if this feature would be implemented anytime soon?

Groqx
02-10-2008, 08:11 AM
Everyone should check out the link below for dice rolling in a play by post game. It allows for random number generation and you can send the results to the GM via email. As far as I know there is no way to fudge the results of the roll. If the GM posted what is needed to hit then the player could write the scene immediately and also send in the roll for damage to the GM. As far as I know there is no better dice server on the net.


http://www.rpghost.com/dicer.shtml

Mulsiphix
02-10-2008, 10:08 AM
This is nice indeed but if the rolling could be integrated into the post itself, it would be far more useful. There are websites, programs, and other off-forum utilities that can get the job done. If at all possible, a roller integrated into the post would be preferred.

nijineko
02-13-2008, 12:31 AM
I've actually considered running some BattleTech play by post games since I arrived here and saw PBP games were a part of the forum.

i made this 60t charger mech once, that was a whole lot faster than it looked. always wanted to try it out in a game, but never got to due to circumstances. if i recall charging damage was a function of weight/size and speed.

i'd be interested in trying it out. i'd probably have more room for weapons if i dumped the jump jets....



i agree with the embedded-in-a-post idea being one of the more ideal outcomes.

Mulsiphix
02-13-2008, 12:55 AM
The problem with BattleTech is that it is not PBP friendly. Each turn consists of 8 separate phases. With only two players present and each player controlling a single mech, a single turn would take 16 posts. The average game is probably somewhere betwen 30 and 40 turns for such a skirmish (assuming the players use strategy and the mechs are at medium or higher in size). For the sake of math we'll say the average game is 35 turns.

16 Posts Per Turn
35 Turns Per Game
560 Posts :eek:

Unless I can find a way to streamline the phases and modify the damage system, games with three or more players, each player having multiple units, is downright impossible for PBP :(

nijineko
02-13-2008, 01:26 AM
does the results of each phase impact the decision in the later phases that much? or is it a thing where not running each phase seperately would result in loss of tactical or strategic control?

Mulsiphix
02-13-2008, 10:58 AM
The phases are highly important. Actually when each player has more than one unit the movement phase alone expands. BattleTech phases are about maintaining the balance. Player A moves Mech 1, Player B moves Mech 2, Player A moves Mech 3, Player B moves Mech 4, and so on. So actually the more units that are on the field the longer each turn can become.

There are no optional phases. Even Level 3 rules add optional modifiers and don't modify the phases. The quick play rules use less phases but the games strategy really only goes as far as seeking cover. Without the heat phase BattleTech is actually a pretty unfulfilling game.

Initiative Phase
Movement Phase (players take turns moving units until all units have had a chance to move)
Weapon Attack Phase (players take turns attacking with units until all units have had a chance to declare an attack)
Physical Attack Phase (players alternate like attack phase for physical attacks)
Heat Phase
End Phase (multiple things take place in the end phase based on the situation. Pilots who lost consciousness roll to see if they wake up, recording the movement of fires on the map, turning heat sinks on and off, and various other things)
So there are actually only six turn phases, not eight as I had remembered, but the phases can a LOT of extra posts if more than one unit per player is present :eek:

Farcaster
02-13-2008, 02:31 PM
I have been working on a solution. The die parsing part is done, and now I am just trying to integrate the solution with vBulletin. I have a couple different ways I can proceed at this point, and I wanted to see if anyone had any preferences.

I can make the dice rolled inline with the post, in which case, they will show up in the post, as you can see in the first thumbnail. The problem is that if the poster goes back and edits their message, the entire roll section will be removed and they have to go back and type it in again -- in this case, d20+7;d8+2

The second option that I am considering is having the roll appear at the bottom of the post, so even though I type the tags inline with the rest of my message, the roll goes at the bottom. In this case, I'm thinking that the roll tag could also contain a description. So during the course of my message, I might type:

Farcaster lashes out with his mace

Later in the same post, I might type:

Farcaster's summoned celestial monkey, paws at the big bad guy

Even though I typed it inline with the rest of the post, all rolls would show up at the bottom. And the [roll] tags would be removed from the post if I went back and edited it. However, the history would still remain.

An example of what that might look like is in the second attached thumbnail below. Personally, it is this second option that I am leaning towards the most.

Riftwalker
02-13-2008, 02:39 PM
I love both, but love the second option more, since it cleanly separates the prose from the numbers. Awesome job!

nijineko
02-13-2008, 02:50 PM
second is... seconded! :D

Maelstrom
02-13-2008, 03:24 PM
Having the rolls inline would be nice, but considering the drawbacks of that implementation, the 2nd definitely does the job well. Then again, the 1st implementation does tend to make a smoother story, with the actual mechanics separated from the role-playing. Nice side effect.

I am absolutely drooling over this feature! Seriously, my keyboard's wet!

Anaesthesia
02-13-2008, 04:59 PM
I like the second option, also.

Mulsiphix
02-13-2008, 06:10 PM
I like both options frankly. Would it be possible to assign different bbcode tags to the rolling style? Kind of like the <list> / <list=1> feature. The editing is a big problem though. I wish there was a way to use the first method but not have the editing problem. Each method have their pluses. If I had to pick one of the two methods though I would go with the second as the editing problem is too problematic.

Maelstrom
02-13-2008, 06:42 PM
*Covers Mulsiphix mouth* No, we're all good here, do the second :) No feature creep when we're on the verge of having a beautiful add on!

Mulsiphix
02-13-2008, 07:18 PM
Bwahaha I know the URL to access the roller! I'm already enjoying it!! :eek:

The Wandering Bard
02-15-2008, 05:07 PM
Very well done farcaster, I am humbled by your skill....Hmm perhapes i've been playing one too many bards.. :)

I would chose the second option. and I look forward to seeing how it works out.

thanks

Mulsiphix
02-15-2008, 09:42 PM
Any further information to report Farcaster? Going with the second option or adding a few more features or?

Farcaster
02-19-2008, 02:47 PM
Updates? Well, lets see.
Farcaster flips a coin.
Looks like it's up and working :)

You may use this tag to roll one or more dice in your post in the format of: Action Description. The roller understands standard dice expression syntax and always operates left to right. You can roll more than one set of dice at a time by using a semi-colon (;). Ex:

Farcaster rolls a bunch of dice for fun

Might produce:


Farcaster rolls a bunch of dice for fun: 3d6 (4,6,5 = 15) + 4 = 19
1d100 (63) = 63
2d4 (4,2 = 6) * 1000 = 6000
1d4 (1) * 1d8 (2) = 2
1d10 (8) / 2 = 4Note there is a hard limit of 1,000 times, 1 million sides, and 10 expressions seperated by semi-colon (;) in any one expression.

Also, you can simply type "Farcaster rolls some dice" for example and the parser will automatically fill in an action for you using your name.. Example:

Farcaster rolls some dice

If you edit your post, dice are NOT automatically rerolled even if you add or change the dice expressions. You'll now see a checkbox just below the title "Reroll Dice in Post." To have the dice rolled again, you must put a check in that box.

Mulsiphix
02-19-2008, 02:59 PM
Well done. This will enhance all the PBP games and now make wargaming possible. Very cool indeed :p

Maelstrom
02-19-2008, 03:31 PM
Maelstrom tests the limits!

Dang, this isn't working :)

Ok, just a d6

Mulsiphix
02-19-2008, 06:01 PM
Last time I checked the maximum value the roller could handle was 214,925. Not sure if it has been modified since that test though. At least if its limit has raised/lowered.

Farcaster
02-19-2008, 06:34 PM
Maelstrom tests the limits!

Dang, this isn't working :)

Ok, just a d6
I just noticed a bug. Something to be aware of until it is resolved. If you reply to a post, the quoted text includes the rolls instead of the dialog and they are rolled again in your post. I'll need to fix this. No harm for now, just be sure to remove the rolls from your quotes.

Riftwalker
02-19-2008, 08:18 PM
Riftwalker tries it out.

Riftwalker
02-19-2008, 08:20 PM
The last post I used the roll tag but left out the =, then edited it and added the = back in.

Riftwalker sees if this will allow negative numbers.

Riftwalker
02-19-2008, 08:21 PM
Awesome, Farcaster! Thanks!

nijineko
02-19-2008, 10:36 PM
what expressions will this the board roller accept? i'm guessing "+-*/;" so far, any others? will it handle division? and if so, is that integer division?

and will there be a stickied faq thread about it? and will it notate permanently that the dice have been edited, if the post has rerolled the dice? or will it just append the reroll below the original roll?

Farcaster
02-20-2008, 02:24 AM
I just noticed a bug. Something to be aware of until it is resolved. If you reply to a post, the quoted text includes the rolls instead of the dialog and they are rolled again in your post. I'll need to fix this. No harm for now, just be sure to remove the rolls from your quotes.

Fixed!


This shouldn't be rolled.

code: Shouldn't be rolled

php: Shouldn't be rolled
[noparse]: Shouldn't be rolled

[roll=d6]html: Shouldn't be rolled

Rolls embedded in these types of types of tags will not be rolled. But this will

The Wandering Bard
02-24-2008, 03:01 PM
TWB test

Kadion Swings his swords attacker.

The Wandering Bard
02-24-2008, 03:01 PM
WOOT!!! it worked....Hmmmm and an evil Idea is born...

boulet
02-24-2008, 03:07 PM
Sorry I have to play with it too. I'm just a gamer after all.

boulet
02-24-2008, 03:18 PM
I'm lame ! I need a FAQ :D

Farcaster
02-24-2008, 03:57 PM
When you edit your post, Boulet, you have to put a check on the reroll option or the dice will NOT be rolled, even if you have added new dice.

boulet
02-24-2008, 05:23 PM
Joy ! Joy ! I saw the light :)

Stormhound
09-28-2008, 11:19 AM
Just playing with the dice-roller, in case I end up needing to use it.

DeathByDM
09-29-2008, 01:06 PM
Ooooh this is neat!

The Fighter attacks the goblin with his longsword!

DeathByDM
09-29-2008, 01:10 PM
Interesting, by using a comma in the first one instead of a semicolon it took the first result and rolled the second die that many times. The possibilities are endless!

nijineko
09-29-2008, 04:20 PM
use a ";" for multiple rolls in a single set of tags. but knowing that about the comma is also quite useful. it allows rolls such as 15 sets of 4d6, perhaps... let's check and see.

testing for rolling of sets


alas, nope. it seems that it ignore everything between the comma and the "dx". ^^



.

Groqx
03-08-2010, 01:24 PM
Just checking to see if my head is screwed on right.

Groqx tests the roller to see if he understands the basics

Edward
04-21-2010, 11:44 PM
Testing the dice roller: Edward rolls some dice

Thandren
05-13-2011, 06:48 AM
On the site I play PBP (www.pbpmap.com) that has two types of dice rollers, one that uses bb code and one that has an interface screen to specify the dice that can also be used to save commonly rolled dice templates.

The thing is the dice rolling there cannot be edited. So although a user can edit the post, the actually dice roll cannot be edited out. Also deletion of posts are logged and viewable to all with the dice rolls shown and also editing of posts is also logged and viewable to all.
These features completely puts a stop to cheating.

So if you do go ahead in using dice rolling I would recommend from experience that posts should be logged if deleted including dice rolls and it's also a good idea to log editing.

nijineko
12-13-2011, 12:13 PM
i believe that has already been incorporated from quite a while ago. dice rolls cannot be edited, even if the post is. iirc.