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gdmcbride
01-26-2008, 03:24 AM
I'm sure this will show up in news eventually, but it's not there yet. Bill Slavicsek has posted the entire 4th edition stat block for the pit fiend here:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dramp/20080125&authentic=true

Yes, you need a D&D Insider account to use this link.

But if people want to actually SEE what they are despising, you can with a little research over at ENWorld, basically decipher most of the basic 4th edition system from this stat block.

I'm of two minds about it. It definitely looks lean, mean and streamlined compared to 3.x D&D -- this is a much simpler monster. Grapple totals, touch AC, long list of spell-like powers to reference in another book -- all gone. That I like.

On the other hand, it also looks a lot less customizable. No notes about advancement. All bonuses from magic items are folded in without any hint of showing work. The only hint is perhaps level. I'm also surprised by the damage. This big bad beastie inflicts low-level orc barbarian damage in 3.5. What gives?

Gary

Maelstrom
01-26-2008, 06:23 AM
Didn't need insider... I got in with that link just fine.

I agree with your assessment. They've really tamed the beast. The old pit fiend has 6 attacks for a full round action, each at a higher damage then the 4th edition version.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#pitFiend

Of course, the hitpoints have been increased dramatically and given him a bunch of commanding abilities. Seems like they have made him more of a general than a buzzsaw.

One thing that brings up some questions: He only has one action point, and the tactics description indicates that he will use it to cast the encounter ability. It raises the question: how do you regain action points? If you have an encounter ability that you should be able to use once per encounter, you may not be able to use it later in the day because you've used your action points. Doesn't that defeat the purpose of these kind of abilities?

Also, any idea what Recharge 4 5 6 means? From D&D minis 2, recharge allows you to use an ability again after certain conditions are met, but I have no idea what 4 5 6 could mean.

InfoStorm
01-26-2008, 09:16 AM
Reading the stats of the Pit Fiend, it sounds like combat in D&D 4e is just a derritive of the Miniatures rules.

rabkala
01-26-2008, 10:01 AM
It definitely looks very different. Without a frame of reference of the 4e rule set, it's hard to say if that's good or bad.

No CR, maybe that is what the 18,000exp stands for.
HP, AC, And saves are definitely changed due to new mechanics.
No feats (My favorite part of 3.x) ?!?
Action points obviously work differently now.
Ability modifiers are different. A 32 Strength was +11 in 3.5 and is now +24, a 24 Dexterity was +7 and is now +20, etc.
What new language is supernal? Abyssal and infernal combined maybe...
A large heavy mace did 2d6 in 3.5, now 1d12.
Mobility was downgraded to clumsy instead of average.

Mulsiphix
01-26-2008, 10:03 AM
Reading the stats of the Pit Fiend, it sounds like combat in D&D 4e is just a derritive of the Miniatures rules.Miniatures rules are heavily simplified compared to 3.X combat right? If that is the case, that is going to upset a lot of fans who love the combat in D&D (just about everybody I would expect). Well except for the D&D miniature fanatics :p

Farcaster
01-26-2008, 10:03 AM
It seems like the Pit Fiend has lost a lot of abilities. Gone are the fireballs and meteor swarms, and instead he can pop his own allies like zits for what seems like a minor amount of damage. In fact, it on average, exploding one of his own allies will only do about as much damage as his Aura of Fire.

Perhaps the lore should be:

DC 25: Pit fiends used to be the consumate bad asses of the nine hells, before the great 4.0 nerf, but now not so much.

rabkala
01-26-2008, 10:07 AM
So, creatures have greater HP and less damage output, combat will take far longer? :confused:

PnP News Bot
01-26-2008, 10:18 AM
http://www.wizards.com/books/images/dnd_logo_small.jpg

Check out this new article Wizards of the Coast posted recently:

Ampersand: The Devil's in the Details (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dramp/20080125)

Bill's generosity knows no bounds ... or maybe this is just because of that pesky pact he signed with Asmodeus. Oh well, as long we get to reap the rewards. Ladies and gentlemen, meet the pit fiend.

rabkala
01-26-2008, 12:30 PM
I would say, I do not like the fact it is already stated with standard/built in magical weaponry. That would seem to make customization more difficult.

gdmcbride
01-26-2008, 12:38 PM
No feats (My favorite part of 3.x) ?!?
Action points obviously work differently now.
Ability modifiers are different. A 32 Strength was +11 in 3.5 and is now +24, a 24 Dexterity was +7 and is now +20, etc.
What new language is supernal? Abyssal and infernal combined maybe...
A large heavy mace did 2d6 in 3.5, now 1d12.


Feats are still there (in one form or another) they are just for classed characters only. Monsters, being simpler, don't have feats per se. Feats are assumed in their totals.

The ability "modifiers" are I believe skill rolls for skills based on that particular stat. They are after all in the skill section.

Supernal is probably short-hand (this is speculation now) for I can communicate with everybody using telepathy.

Monster's damage is not dependent on weapon but on monster type and level so a large heavy mace may yet do 2d6.

Gary

gdmcbride
01-26-2008, 12:42 PM
So, creatures have greater HP and less damage output, combat will take far longer? :confused:

That is a good question. The part of the stat block that left me puzzled is the damage. Unfortunately, though you can derive much raw system from this example (if you care to), it is very hard to put this damage total into context yet ... so, reply still hazy.

Of course, its also possible this is merely a typo. "One d12 ... oops, sorry, we meant three d12."

Gary

Maelstrom
01-26-2008, 08:40 PM
Feats are still there (in one form or another) they are just for classed characters only. Monsters, being simpler, don't have feats per se. Feats are assumed in their totals.


I thought feats were going away as they are defined now, becoming more along the lines of powers?

The 4e pit fiend has several of these, with different use classes (encounter, at will). My impression is that feats were grouped with supernatural abilities and the like into this concept.

I certainly hope what they did to the pit fiend was more in the lines of restructuring what the role of a pit fiend is rather than a direct indication of the kind of changes that would be made per creature.

Now if the demons he summon convert to stronger than they are now, you have something to worry about. The demon will help bring you down with his abilities while his minions do the dirty work of mopping the floor with you.

Some more thoughts: They have a saving throw rating of +2 for a pit fiend, and D&D minis 2 has a saving throw concept that seems to fit the descriptions listed here. When you make a save in D&D minis you roll a d20 at the beginning of each turn:
1-9 Effect continues
10-19 Effect stops
20 All effects on you stop
The saving throw +2 value seems to fit with this concept, and if so it seems that if you manage to pierce a Pit Fiend's considerable Fort/Ref/Will defenses, he would have to make a save just like everyone else down to 1st level, with just a +2 bonus to allow him to save on a 8 or better instead of a 10. Does certainly simplify saving throws, but is it too much of a change?

Mulsiphix
01-26-2008, 08:44 PM
This is the most positive 4E conversation I've ever seen. I rather like it :D

ffclubhero
01-28-2008, 09:20 AM
As a DDM player, even I am now considering playing 4ed. (time is one major factor-much easier to throw down for an hour or two in a one-off). That was a tasty treat. More please!

Mulsiphix
01-28-2008, 09:40 AM
As a DDM player, even I am now considering playing 4ed.No need to put on a brave front. Come on now, your among friends. It's alright to admit that you've had... thoughts... for quite some time now. Here, I'll go first. My name is Mulsiphix... *hands head low in shame*... I'm a pen and paper gamer and... and... I've had thoughts about 4E ever since it was announced :eek:

rabkala
01-28-2008, 09:19 PM
Say 20 hail Gygax's and the Gurps prayer for penance and your sin will be absolved.

Mulsiphix
01-28-2008, 09:24 PM
I appreciate the thought rabkala but... this is a sin I must bare. Like the scarlet A of old, this must be public. Please! Surely I am not alone? Surely others have had... thoughts :o