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upidstay
01-25-2008, 06:27 AM
I used to play and DM for this guy who was a "Dice spinner". He had perfected the method of spinning dice so that they were in their original position when they stopped. At first I didn't really notice, as he would start with different numbers when he "rolled". But during one adventure, he rolled 6 straight natural 20's. He stopped playing in our group after we instituted a rule where all dice must fall at least 6 inches, and had to land in a box we had for dice rolling only.

One kid used to go to the kitchen and bathroom ALOT, then on his way back he's "pop by my chair to chat". He was trying to read the encounter, see what page the monster manual was turned to, etc. So I would make sure I had several phony encounters written up, and kept the MM page turned to a random critter. Oh, the looks I would get when he'd be all prepared for a fight with say, a fire elemental, resist fire spells cast, cold spells prepared, etc., only to get attacked by gnolls.

Maelstrom
01-25-2008, 08:16 AM
I just don't understand cheating in tabletop games. You aren't competing against the other players, you're competing against the encounter, so what's the point of cheating?

I haven't had to deal with it really, since most of my players have been close friends or family. If I did come across someone doing this, however, I would definately give them a warning and firm talking to between sessions, and if I caught em again they'd be history. That just goes against the whole spirit of D&D.

I have had players try to sneak a glance at my encounter info playfully, but my scribbles and shorthand are so ambiguous I don't think they'd gleen much even if I let them study it :)

Mulsiphix
01-25-2008, 10:21 AM
I wouldn't tolerate cheaters. One of the reasons I am so taken with homebrew campaigns is because nobody can go and buy the module or info on the setting we'll be playing in. If somebody was clearly cheating they would get a single warning and if it happened again, see ya.

ffclubhero
01-25-2008, 10:31 AM
Cheating defeats the purpose of defeating the encounter, or your opponent, as they case may be... Never dealt with cheaters, but I have faced (playing 40K) armies that outnumbered me 3 or 4 to 1. :rolleyes:

Anaesthesia
01-25-2008, 10:51 AM
I wouldn't tolerate cheaters. One of the reasons I am so taken with homebrew campaigns is because nobody can go and buy the module or info on the setting we'll be playing in. If somebody was clearly cheating they would get a single warning and if it happened again, see ya.

Ditto. In one of my old groups, if you were a noob, you had to sit next to one of the honest, veteran players, so they can watch your rolls (and help the DM at spotting cheaters), and they'd have a good idea what your saves would be, looking over your shoulder and all..:rolleyes:

Maelstrom
01-25-2008, 10:56 AM
I do have a player that does try to take some liberties (like peaking around the DM screen as I mentioned above), but he is joking around and mostly harmless. If he didn't joke around I think he'd burst, so I don't mind too much.

Deliberate and dishonest cheating like mentioned in the first post however, will not be tolerated.

Mulsiphix
01-25-2008, 11:07 AM
I never quite understood why anybody would play D&D if they are intent on cheating. It isn't generally a format that is easy to cheat at. That is most games have a lot of people around which makes doing anything secretive quite difficult. Not to mention the options for cheating are quite limited. Most of all, it isn't the type of game that cheating would be all that rewarding with. Aside from the munchkins, pathological power games, I can't understand what one would view as the benefit. It really is a game all about teamwork. There is no real way to win unless you do so as a group, unless you specifically try to get your team mates killed to be the last one standing.

Drohem
01-25-2008, 11:19 AM
Well, there have been instances where a friend got caught cheating on a die roll. 10 years later we still give him crap about it, and he can't really say anything in response since he got caught with his hand in the cookie jar. The razzing and shame was enough to curb that behavior. We also had a guy who almost always has an 18 for every character generated. Now that we've instituted the point-buy method, we no longer have to worry about character abilities and generation. Simple fix to a major problem in campaigns and when dealing with friends. Of course there was *****ing and moaning when point-buy was first instituted, but it has calmed down.

MortonStromgal
01-25-2008, 11:41 AM
At some point (usually players who have been around awhile, especially old D&D) the players who "cheat" probably ran into a "killer" GM. I have found that bad players usually come from bad GMs and no one taking the time to GM them out of it (frankly it takes time and many decent GMs would rather just drop cows than retrain PCs) It can be done but it takes time. The PCs needs to trust their GM and learn that the GM is on their side. GM trust can be very difficult for a player if he feels an antagonistic relationship coming from the GM. I am currently in two games. One game the GM is out to kill us but at the same time he is impressed when we don't die = antagonistic. The other game the GM talked about the need to build more trust because some of the players are out to "win" and while he may favor some individuals a bit he is trying to be fair. Having been in his seat for years I can understand its tough not to come down hard on players who try to "win". In my 10+ years as a GM I have successfully trained one guy out of the antagonistic relationship. It took about 5 one on ones and another 10 sessions or so. I have had a handful of players with this attitude though and frankly I was to lazy to spend the time to train them out of it.

boulet
01-25-2008, 12:00 PM
MortonStromgal makes a big point here. I fortunately played most of my life with people I knew closely. Trust was never a central issue. That might explain why I never noticed any cheating at my table...

RPG Systems that allow to generate both average and superhuman depending only on a random process are wrong and a big cause of cheating IMHO.

Mulsiphix
01-25-2008, 04:12 PM
RPG Systems that allow to generate both average and superhuman depending only on a random process are wrong and a big cause of cheating IMHO.D&D is one such system is it not? I've read several comments on these boards that point based systems are more balanced and fair in that respect. To be honest though if somebody gets a really bad character and just isn't having that much fun, I might be compelled to help them out by fudging some rolls, giving them some quality treasure, etc... in order to up the fun in their experience. It isn't their fault that the random process of rolling didn't work in their favor when they really needed it to. Player happiness should always be something the GM keeps at the forefront of his mind.

Riftwalker
01-25-2008, 04:23 PM
I can just see Mulsiphix now...

Unhappy player: "I cast Scatterspray on the Deck of Many Things!"

That should make his day!

Mulsiphix
01-25-2008, 04:42 PM
I have no idea what that means :p

rabkala
01-25-2008, 07:25 PM
I have encountered many cheaters over the years. Most often it was in my open games.

Everyone must have encountered the people who have miraculously rolled super characters and occasionally fudge die rolls. That is very common.

There are also a surprising many who don't seem happy unless they have the most powerful character in the group. Those are the hardest to deal with in the game.

I have had players buy modules and boxed sets just to try and cheat. The first one suffered an immediate character death and temporary banning from the game. Several others found horrible traps where they thought treasure hidden or other such little switches I devised.

Generally I give them a warning first, then horrible consequences, and finally ejection.

Digital Arcanist
01-25-2008, 08:36 PM
In my games, if you cheat once you have to dig your own grave. Should you cheat again then I have to fill it....

tesral
01-25-2008, 08:56 PM
And to think I was complaining to my Friday DM that the tables are lousy for die rolling. They tend to stick and slide, not roll.

I haven't had much problem with cheaters. They usual not only dig the grave but fill it themselves. Good die rolls are not the ruling factor in my game. You have to think.

Mulsiphix
01-25-2008, 09:15 PM
Good die rolls are not the ruling factor in my game. You have to think.Something that will govern my games with an iron fist. If a character is having a hard time due to their rolling but I can see they are really thinking about their actions or are really into character, I'd definitely feel obligated to fudge a few rolls in their favor. I respect any player who has the guts to put humility aside and take the game to "that level" :)

Maelstrom
01-26-2008, 04:31 AM
Having bad rolls doesn't have to be a bad thing.

Mo, the gnome bard, is notorious for falling into every last trap and obstacle the party comes across. The exhasperated "we gotta save Mo again" is a frequent refrain amongst the PCs. Mo, however, is exceedingly lucky when it comes to enemies saving against his favorite spell, grease (no fudging needed). Gnolls and even high reflex save rouges tend to slip and slide when Mo comes a-casting.

Everyone has their good days and bad days. If you don't have bad luck sometimes due to cheating, you're missing a lot of the draw of the game. Bad luck (in reasonable quantities) adds flavor and fun.

Mulsiphix
01-26-2008, 08:57 AM
Bad luck (in reasonable quantities) adds flavor and fun.Quite right ;)

rabkala
01-26-2008, 10:17 AM
Having bad rolls doesn't have to be a bad thing.
Everyone has their good days and bad days. If you don't have bad luck sometimes due to cheating, you're missing a lot of the draw of the game. Bad luck (in reasonable quantities) adds flavor and fun.
I agree whole heartedly.

How do people deal with confronting cheaters?
The last couple, I waited a couple days to gather my thoughts and then sent an email. I guess I now recognize my temper and willingness to 'throw down' at a seconds notice to be a bad thing.

Mulsiphix
01-26-2008, 10:21 AM
I'm likely to send them an email, leave a voice mail, or otherwise indirectly contact them. I prefer to avoid confrontation when possible.

Maelstrom
01-26-2008, 11:29 AM
I use the email approach as well for any problems that arise. I make sure to word it in such a way that it seems like they are doing a favor to me by changing their ways, making them an ally.

I like the phrase "I really don't know what I'm doing as a DM. We seem to be having a problem, and I'd like your help in working it out. [describe problem]. What ideas do you have on how we can solve this?"

The worst players might feel superior if you approach them humbly in this fashion, and then go about trying to tell you what you are doing wrong rather than fixing the described issue. In this case I set the record straight, make a judgement on how to fix the problem, and they can abide by it or walk.

Of course, all this is assuming there isn't blatant cheating going on. You'd have to take a more direct (and firm) approach. Like "You're ruining the game. If you want to continue playing you must abide by these rules."

[/ramble]

Mulsiphix
01-26-2008, 04:54 PM
I like the humble approach but I don't think I would use it on the average player. Depending on the age of the player they may feel like your talking down to them which won't help the situation at all. I prefer to be very straight and blunt with people. This approach always gives you a clear view of where they stand. Of course I try to be as polite as possible :o

ffclubhero
01-26-2008, 06:30 PM
Does anyone remember a series of articles that Dragon put out WAAAYYY back in the day on cheating? They were fairly humorous, but the twin articles detailed everything from shaving dice, to outright lies. I'll see if I can find them.

Maelstrom
01-26-2008, 08:26 PM
Depending on the age of the player they may feel like your talking down to them which won't help the situation at all.

How so? The whole point is to get around their instant defensive mechanisms by "asking them for help". Some people take offense really easy, and its not worth the trouble they can cause to be bold, if the humble approach will work.

Mulsiphix
01-26-2008, 08:46 PM
How so? The whole point is to get around their instant defensive mechanisms by "asking them for help". Some people take offense really easy, and its not worth the trouble they can cause to be bold, if the humble approach will work.Maybe I've just come across people that have rather large ego's. Generally speaking I've found that a lot of older people get rather sensitive when a younger person talks to them in anyway that they process as condescending. Maybe this wouldn't be the case if I was older myself?

rabkala
01-26-2008, 09:12 PM
Maybe I've just come across people that have rather large ego's. Generally speaking I've found that a lot of older people get rather sensitive when a younger person talks to them in anyway that they process as condescending. Maybe this wouldn't be the case if I was older myself?
Quite true child. ;):p
Us old buggers sometimes have a hard time seeing the cutting wisdom in a precocious youth. I strive to remain open minded, but have probably snapped a few times before I really thought, "Hey, this kid is on to something."

I guess I would take it on a case by case basis with that method, so I could read the player.

GBVenkman
01-27-2008, 02:25 AM
I used to play and DM for this guy who was a "Dice spinner". He had perfected the method of spinning dice so that they were in their original position when they stopped. At first I didn't really notice, as he would start with different numbers when he "rolled". But during one adventure, he rolled 6 straight natural 20's. He stopped playing in our group after we instituted a rule where all dice must fall at least 6 inches, and had to land in a box we had for dice rolling only.

One kid used to go to the kitchen and bathroom ALOT, then on his way back he's "pop by my chair to chat". He was trying to read the encounter, see what page the monster manual was turned to, etc. So I would make sure I had several phony encounters written up, and kept the MM page turned to a random critter. Oh, the looks I would get when he'd be all prepared for a fight with say, a fire elemental, resist fire spells cast, cold spells prepared, etc., only to get attacked by gnolls.


I was at a club game once, my first one, and a kid used a printed PC from the net that was way uberized on damage, too good to be true. The dm killed him and he just walked away like everything was normal.

upidstay
01-27-2008, 08:27 AM
I owned a dice, a d12, I believe, that always seemed to roll high, many years ago so I can't remember which number it rolled, but it was at least a 10. Must have been a flaw in it when it was made. I remember using it when I was a player in "Against the Giants". Back in those days (remember?), a long sword did d12 vs large creatures, like giants. I think we all agreed that I should dispose of the die, after 7 straight rolls yeilded the same number...

Mulsiphix
01-27-2008, 10:28 AM
You should have put it up on eBay. I'm sure a few munchkins or cheaters would have fought over it, proving quite beneficial to your wallet ;)

Malruhn
01-27-2008, 11:36 AM
I once cheated to fix a cheater.

After several players brought it to my attention (and I had thought I had seen it), I got in cahoots with a fair player and he agreed.

I pulled the cheater aside and told him that I thought one of the other players was cheating on his dice rolls... and if he'd keep an eye on him.

Suddenly, he stopped cheating on his rolls and paid VERY close attention to the other players.

Two years later he asked me if I had done it because he cheated... we still laugh about it, some 20 years later.

boulet
01-27-2008, 12:58 PM
Malruhn ! Now that's social engineering, I'll keep this trick in mind. That's the best way I can think of dealing with a cheater without putting him on the defensive or casting him out of the group.

Mulsiphix
01-27-2008, 02:26 PM
That is actually quite hilarious Malruhn. I'll have to add that to my book of tricks *first entry: Malruhn's "How To Fix A Cheater"* :)

Malruhn
01-28-2008, 09:33 PM
That's a whole lot better than just telling them to roll one of MY dice onto the middle of the table to let everyone see the results... which has happened. I couldn't think of anything else at the time - as the player was rolling the die and grabbing it just as it came to a stop (or ever-so-slightly before!).

Later I told him to get the heck out of the group... and then found out that he had recently been kicked out of the other three groups in the area for the same reasons. After he promised to behave, we let him return.

And didn't cheat again (that we knew about!!).

Mulsiphix
01-28-2008, 09:52 PM
A positive tale of a cheater being scared straight. Very nice indeed. I guess I always worry that sooner or later I'll get somebody who is disturbed in some manner and they come back to cause trouble. In todays society, especially with the wide availability of "controlled" substances, firearms, and alcohol, there are plenty of chances for people to act foolishly and impulsively when their feelings are hurt.

Malruhn
01-28-2008, 10:02 PM
I gamed three times while dealing with drugs and alcohol. I found that pot made me giggle and eat... and not care about the dice. Alcohol made me pee a lot (a LOT!) and make up some weird crap that didn't make sense. Mescaline made me imagine spectacular adventures that were never played or relayed to any players.

That was all almost 30 years ago... and I won't even let a single beer at my gaming table. Any weapons are put away before gaming starts, but have only involved crappy versions of fantasy-style swords, neat knives, and an expandable baton.

Mulsiphix
01-28-2008, 10:08 PM
I definitely plan to have a substance free environment. I don't mind if you smoke but do it outside and don't leave cigarette butts all over the place or your gone. Being sober from drugs, alcohol, and smoking for six years is great but the thoughts of "good times" or the yearning for a cigarette are ever present. Just looking for standard run of the mill fun.

D'argos
01-29-2008, 09:26 AM
I find that most cheaters just don't understand the point of the game. They may have come from strict hack and slash games, or games where the DM is really out to get the party. I met a DM like this once and he literally just threw Dragons at level 1 players. Or he played a character in the party with them that was by far vastly superior to them, with unheard of magical powers (that were not based on any power in any of the books and instantly slew monsters) and the NPC he created could never be killed. I could understand if this served a purpose, but when I asked him about this guy he created, he said he did it so that he could play with them in the party. Alot of players ended up quitting and even got sour at Dungeons and Dragons because of this.
I talked it over with him for a while and instructed him on some of the finer points of roleplaying... (he didn't really roleplay or do descriptors that created elements or feelings at all, he just said you enter a cave 100 feet ahead is a Dragon.) I told him well about the enter a Dry Musky cave, the smell of death eminates from around the corner, a small breeze blows across your face and the light from the torch flickers a bit creating shadows of movement on the walls. Off in the distance you hear a low rumbling, and it feels like the whole place shakes a bit and that the ceiling could come down your head any second. He was quite impressed with this. He even took some of this to heart and the next game he said was better, but he just didn't lik eth work involved. Long story short his leftoverplayers and him both play at my house and I run a game. He has found that he enjoys playing alot more. I told him well its easier if you play fro a bit before you run. It will give you an idea of what the game could be about and you can of course take what lessons you want to heart and change things that maybe you don't like and incorporate new things in your game when you create it.

PS As a DM I have fudged a roll or two, I try to stay true and sometimes bad luck just falls thier way. But I like to roleplay interesting situations. ~ For instance the goblin that just woudn't die. The party faced a group of 6 goblins on a standard patrol. The goblins said "GiV uS Ur Gold or Face our Wathh". Well the players refused outright and they slew all but 1 goblin easily. They kept rolling under his Ac of 16. And he made his saves vs the Spells the Wiz used. it happened for 5 rounds !! So I said after a while the goblin figured he was outnumbered and ran off. Lets just say Nilbog (goblin spelled backwards) was a re-occuring villain from then on. Everytime they thought he died I said he was just caught under the rocks when you pushed the boulder on him. or when you thought your arrow hit his head you actually pierced his the side of it and tore his ear off. LOL they finally got smart and when they were level 5 and Nilbog was level 3 with an AC of 19, they just cut off his head.

D'argos
01-29-2008, 09:31 AM
duplicate post

cplmac
01-29-2008, 03:54 PM
Fortunately, I have never had to deal with anyone cheating. Then, I always have everyone do their die rolls in the open where it can be seen. I even do my die rolls as DM out where the party can see the results too. I find that a really bad roll doesn't mean that something devastating has to happen. For example, if a player rolls a 1 on the attack roll (when playing AD&D 2nd Edition) when using a bow, I usually tell them that the result is that the bow string broke, as opposed to the entire bow breaking.

I guess I can understand the few comments about worrying if someone would bring a weapon after being scolded for cheating. In this day and age, it is always a possibility. Then I'm not that worried, since I usually only have one group going at any given time. Guess it also doesn't hurt that I have a background to be able to handle that type of a situation. Makes you really take notice of everything going on around you when you spend time in a war zone.

tesral
01-29-2008, 04:25 PM
Fortunately, I have never had to deal with anyone cheating. Then, I always have everyone do their die rolls in the open where it can be seen. I even do my die rolls as DM out where the party can see the results too. I find that a really bad roll doesn't mean that something devastating has to happen. For example, if a player rolls a 1 on the attack roll (when playing AD&D 2nd Edition) when using a bow, I usually tell them that the result is that the bow string broke, as opposed to the entire bow breaking.


A mis-nocked dry fire is bad enough. Happened two weeks ago and got my wrist good. Put my whole game off that week. (archery league) Bows seldom break. They can break, but not a 1-20 chance. Bow strings are not that fragile. In the 45 years I have been shooting archery I have had one bow break. I had out grown it was was over drawing the bow. The top limb cracked off the riser. I have never had a string break in use. However there are a host of other little mishaps than can mess you up, like the aforementioned dry fire.

Yes, I fudge a roll once in a great while. Most of the time it is never necessary. I will avoid a TPK like the plague however. It destroys the game.

cplmac
01-29-2008, 04:56 PM
A mis-nocked dry fire is bad enough. Happened two weeks ago and got my wrist good. Put my whole game off that week. (archery league) Bows seldom break. They can break, but not a 1-20 chance. Bow strings are not that fragile. In the 45 years I have been shooting archery I have had one bow break. I had out grown it was was over drawing the bow. The top limb cracked off the riser. I have never had a string break in use. However there are a host of other little mishaps than can mess you up, like the aforementioned dry fire.


Tersal, thanks for some input from a knowledgable archerer. I never thought of a mis-nock. I'm now thinking that there could be a host of little things go wrong, just with the arrow itself. Again, thanks for the input.

Mulsiphix
01-29-2008, 08:25 PM
I don't think I would be as worried about somebody possibly being violent if I didn't have small children in the house. I know the know the news glorifies the level of violence in a big city and does little, if anything, to point out all the great things going on, but even glorified violence doesn't change the fact that the deaths are quite real. I consider myself to be an excellent judge of character but as a few people have mentioned in various threads, sometimes you really have no idea what kind of things are going on in a players personal life.

tesral
01-29-2008, 11:09 PM
Tersal, thanks for some input from a knowledgable archerer. I never thought of a mis-nock. I'm now thinking that there could be a host of little things go wrong, just with the arrow itself. Again, thanks for the input.

Things that go wrong with arrows:
Mis-nock. (dry fire)
A broken nock, (dry fire)
Striping a fletching. (Arrow hares off to parts unknown.)
Bent arrow (Arrow hares off to parts unknown.)
Arrow jumps off the rest drawing (lose an action.)

Things that go wrong shooting other than above:
Target panic, (miss an action.)
Unsteady stance, (-2 to hit)
Underdraw, (minus to hit)
Overdraw, (minus to hit)
Fail to anchor (you miss.)
Bad stance (minus to hit and you have a chance of hitting you arm. And brother that HURTS. It is why we wear that funky arm band thing.)

Highly unlikely stuff:
Broken bowstring (bow useless until it is replaced. A three round action if you have another bowstring handy. I would call 18 seconds to restring a bow moving like you need to.)
Broken bow, (Yes it can happen. Highly uncommon. Jimmy at Detroit Archers had an 80 pound longbow break in his hands. The limb caught him across the face. he looked like he lost a fight. I know of one other broken bow incident in the 12 years I have been a member there. A compound that was dry fired (mis-nock) exploded sending bits of itself down range. No one was hurt.

Thing that do NOT happen:
Hit the person next to you.
Hit someone behind you.

A dry fire is about the worst thing that can happen to a bow. All that energy has to go somewhere and will vibrate in the structure of the bow. My compound has been dry fired once. (mis-nock) I never did find my peep sight. It vanished from,the string. Dry fire is worse on compounds that on recurves or longbows, but it is not good for any bow.

Lexdragon
01-31-2008, 10:39 AM
I have played it down the few times i have caught it.

"That die was cocked, re roll it."

then gave the guy a look that let him know i was on to him. I have had no trouble with direct confrontation. I make sure to impart the idea that i really do care about the game and the players, then express that there is no need to cheat because im really not out to get anyone. The guy stopped cheating and no one knew except he and i. (as far as i could tell)

I feel that cheating is often a matter of insecurity and one of the great aspects of the game is that it can help to build confidence and self esteem given the appropriate conditions.

I also use action points, which allows an option to save face when rolling a natural one. (Possibly diminishing the feeling of needing to cheat.)

Count Arioch
02-01-2008, 11:04 AM
I've never caught a cheater. Perhaps people have cheated in the past and I haven't caught it, I don't know.

Mulsiphix
02-01-2008, 10:33 PM
I've never caught a cheater. Perhaps people have cheated in the past and I haven't caught it, I don't know.The best cheaters are the ones that never get caught. I agree it is a sign of insecurity. That or extreme selfishness. One could argue selfishness is in itself a clear sign of insecurity :eek:

Schmall
05-20-2008, 11:35 AM
I DM for my friends and family so cheating is not much of an issue. Sure I get an occasional brother who fudges his dice and someone who insisted on rolling his character up over in the corner. This was all swiftly taken care of with two easy house rules that applies to all. All charecters rolled up with me and all dice must land on the table. If they fall on the floor, a re-roll is a must no matter the results. Fun to watch a natural 20 be rolled on the floor just to be re-rolled as a fumble (1) when you know this is your PC's last chance to kill the dragon before it blasts him to ashes!!

tesral
05-20-2008, 11:42 AM
If they fall on the floor, a re-roll is a must no matter the results. Fun to watch a natural 20 be rolled on the floor just to be re-rolled as a fumble (1) when you know this is your PC's last chance to kill the dragon before it blasts him to ashes!!

Not a problem for me thankfully. Cocked dice are rerolled. As I have carpet you never get a fair roll on the floor. However if you want to take a floor roll I've never gainstayed one to do so.

It's been a while shich I had a cheater. I'll mark myself as lucky.

Valdar
05-20-2008, 02:30 PM
Things that go wrong with arrows:


Historically, longbows were so powerful that they could splinter the arrow, and a sliver would go into the shooter's arm. I'm sure this would never happen with modern equipment. And certainly not 1 in 20.

I never did like critical misses. Too simulationist for the sorts of stories I'm telling. It's just bad writing to make the hero look like a clod when the player isn't doing anything wrong.

Back on topic, I'd say this is one of the biggest problems I have as a DM is to keep the players from lying their asses off about the things they rolled for their characters. There are three ways to determine attributes in my experience: Point-buy, Roll in front of the DM and have him make a backup of your rolls, and Cheat-like-crazy. There's something about being alone in your home with a character generator that has a "Roll HP" button that compels people to click that button like a million times, and then show up with a HP total two points short of max and say, "But I ROLLED it!". Same goes with stats- just about everyone I've let roll their stats in private shows up with like a 50+ point buy- because if you don't, you wind up playing a fighter with the worst AC and HP in the party.

And I've seen the "roll and pick up quickly, claim 20" a lot too. This book:

http://www.sjgames.com/munchkin/guide/

runs the gamut. "Sixes are always upsie-down nines" kind of things.

And one player who exploited mercilessly. We had a new DM who was a brilliant writer, but still shaky on the rules, so he knowingly ignored any inconvenient rule that he knew the DM wouldn't know about yet, and got hostile when the rest of us called him on it. Material components, arcane spell failure, eight-hour casting times, etc. became optional to him. The game broke up when he called me a rules nazi for calling him on it too many times.

boulet
05-20-2008, 03:56 PM
I would distinguish at least two very different cases of cheating. The first one is a player whose PC is in a very difficult situation and may die of a bad roll... I can't say I agree with it, but I can empathize :)

A second type would be the one described by Valdar : a cheater, and implicitly a munchkin, who cheats in order to break the game balance to his PC advantage, to the point of bending the rules... I would have no pity. It's a clear violation of what RPG theorist call the Social Contract, at least in my games. I'm not always reciting it to my players but it includes "my games are not about bending rules even by omission". We can discuss almost anything. Your PC isn't satisfying ? Let's figure out why and how to alleviate this. But don't do it behind my back by doing meta-gaming. You want to play "god mode" ? Go play GTA or sth else.


game broke up when he called me a rules nazi for calling him on it too many times.

On top of that munchkins are often sore losers when they get caught in the spotlight. Reminds me of the Godwin's law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law) (yeah the analogy is a bit stretched but munchkins are similar to forum trolls in a way)

mrken
05-20-2008, 10:56 PM
I actually enjoy cheaters. Twice a year I GM at a couple of local conventions and get my fair share of them. Generally I can pick them out fairly quickly by their competitive attitude. The have to win every roll, they have to stretch their movements, etc. It becomes a game within a game. Cat and mouse like. None of the other players complain as I donít play like that with them, just the cheaters.

In fact I have made much of my game as a result of a few of them. Character generation is straight forward 45 points over seven abilities and any eights or nines must be explained with a back story. The players roll the to hit dice and I roll the damage dice. We use a d100 system that the players only need roll one dice. I sometimes ask them to roll the second dice only if the first one is a possible hit or success. All dice must land on the table. The all start with 3500 points to spend on however many skills they want, then I give them another 1000 hero points to make their character a real hero. Every one can see they are just as good as anyone elseís character.

But the one thing I think keeps my regular players honest is I am not in the game to win against them, but rather, I am in the game to be entertained by them as I entertain them. Very few of my regulars die at the table any longer. They did in the beginning though, sometimes.

Another thing I do is I customize everything. My monsters all look like ones the players have seen since they first started playing, but my monsters are totally different in every other way. I have used modules and only used one aspect, but I might use another in another way in another adventure. Nothing is as it first appeared. My regulars all know this and since they donít want to loose their character they have a fairly health fear. They want to be heroes and sometimes they succeed, generally in a rather spectacular way, which beats having to retire their character because they get old. Yes, characters do age and have to retire as they reach a point where they loose abilities but then they pick one of their children or linked characters to continue on with. Much of my game has come from making it less likely the players could cheat, or, to make it more fair to everyone.

StarLady98
05-20-2008, 11:56 PM
Everyone has their good days and bad days. If you don't have bad luck sometimes due to cheating, you're missing a lot of the draw of the game. Bad luck (in reasonable quantities) adds flavor and fun.

That is so true! Every roleplayer I know has a story about a roll gone bad that ended up with hilarious outcomes.

The only cheater I ever caught had a quirk about being an "all-powerful" character. He had played single-player modules up until he joined my group, so I think he was just used to doing and being whatever he wanted. We ended up setting a rule that all rolls had to be done in front of me into a frisbee (don't laugh, it makes for good random rolls). After that, he started digging up odd character types to play so he could get a lot of special abilities that most GMs didn't know about. On the brightside, I had to read up on Monks, Psionics, and every type of dwarven berserker known to the world of DnD. I just had fun out-smarting him in the end, and I learned a lot more about the game than I probably ever would have without his little tricks.

tesral
05-21-2008, 09:39 AM
The only cheater I ever caught had a quirk about being an "all-powerful" character.

I've run into the "I must have the most powerful character" types before. My model was not creative enough to cheat, in fact he barely knew the rules of the game. As he wasn't too obnoxious about it and hand no clue as to what the other PCs could do, it wasn't a real problem. I didn't have to hand him the killer mix.

Just for fun I used the 2e custom class rules and rolled the abilities of the fighter, magician and thief into one class. Fugetaboutit. You will never see 2nd level. All "powerful" and ever languishing two to three levels behind the party and falling fast. I forget the exact mix as we didn't preserve it on the basis that you would have to be a idiot to want to play it.

nijineko
05-21-2008, 08:40 PM
shaving dice? why on earth would you do that? just toss the old plastic polyhedrals into the frying pan and heat them up a bit. the casting process trapped bubbles in the matrix and these bubbles rise to the top, making the die roll that number far more often. (told to me by an old greybeard) ^^ just don't overheat them, or the bubbles break through.

i've been lucky in that i've never really had to deal with cheaters as a dm. nor, despite my above comment, have i ever fixed dice.

one of my friends rolls unusally well, but it's in front of everyone... every time. i learned a few tricks with d6s which i haven't used in ages, but i never figured out how to "cant" dice of other shapes. in case everyone is wondering why i even tried learning how... i read this interesting story about martians that got me to wondering if it was possible to control the dice by knowing enough about physics and how the die rolls.

i have only once ever rolled insanely well. in front of the dm's eyes: 18, 18, 18, 17, 17, 16. (not in that order)

i guess i wandered off topic about rolling in general, cause i don't have any stories about cheaters. ^^

tesral
05-21-2008, 09:13 PM
shaving dice? why on earth would you do that? just toss the old plastic polyhedrals into the frying pan and heat them up a bit. the casting process trapped bubbles in the matrix and these bubbles rise to the top, making the die roll that number far more often. (told to me by an old greybeard) ^^ just don't overheat them, or the bubbles break through.

Knowing a bit about plastic physics if you get the die hot enough to allow the air to move, it will deform the die.

Most gaming dice are not that accurate. The ones I have measured are on average 0.005 of an inch or more out of true from any two given sides. The dice use by Gambling Casinos are true within 0.001" to a side. So the die will favor certain numbers in the long term. If you buy enough dice you will find natural cheaters now and again. They might not cheat in your favor, but they will cheat. Everyone has run into the d20 that thinks it's a d4.

I have banned dice from my game when they obviously were not true.

Malruhn
05-22-2008, 12:27 AM
Everyone has run into the d20 that thinks it's a d4.
Ain't that the truth!! A buddy once had a d20 that also had a soul that hated him. It would roll horridly - until that one, last roll where a failing save would kill him - or when he had one hit point left and the bad guy was about to kill him - when it would suddenly roll however many natural 20's would be necessary to keep him alive.

Alive, but with the absolutely minimal amount of treasure and no friends and... HAH!!! I miss that guy horribly (damned military moving us around!)!!

Webhead
05-22-2008, 09:24 AM
Ain't that the truth!! A buddy once had a d20 that also had a soul that hated him. It would roll horridly - until that one, last roll where a failing save would kill him - or when he had one hit point left and the bad guy was about to kill him - when it would suddenly roll however many natural 20's would be necessary to keep him alive.

Alive, but with the absolutely minimal amount of treasure and no friends and... HAH!!! I miss that guy horribly (damned military moving us around!)!!

I have a friend who has terribly quirky dice karma. It doesnít matter what type of dice heís rolling, who they belong to or how they were behaving for anyone else rolling them.

In general, if the roll is a serious, straight-forward combat-related roll or is otherwise necessary or highly desirable from a survivability standpoint, he will roll terribly on it. If, however, the roll is to perform some quirky or outlandish action that would make the GM scratch his head or would solve a situation in a completely unexpected and unlikely way, he will roll fantastically well.

For example, in a Werewolf: The Apocalypse game we played in, he would often double and triple botch his rolls to soak damage when being attacked, but when he decides to climb head-first down a fire escape ladder in lupus-form at Diff 9, he will roll 5 successes. :confused:

Valdar
05-22-2008, 10:25 AM
I have had players buy modules and boxed sets just to try and cheat.

Most of my players would just read them in the store.

Anyway, my penalty for meta-gaming is "any meta-game knowledge you're relying on will probably turn out to be false."

So, anyone saying "He won't kill us in the first encounter of the game" is pretty much digging his own grave at that point.

tesral
05-22-2008, 01:22 PM
Most of my players would just read them in the store.

Anyway, my penalty for meta-gaming is "any meta-game knowledge you're relying on will probably turn out to be false."

So, anyone saying "He won't kill us in the first encounter of the game" is pretty much digging his own grave at that point.

So right, so, so, so right. Hand him a shovel.

I do have too much problem with meta gaming, that is any one person that meta games more than I do, so I let that pass.

I had one guy that whined he couldn't get good enough stats. I handed him the character builders. A set of dice from a weird game that are marked 5-10. His PC had terrific stats. He died first and died permanently. I didn't even have to kill him. He did it himself.

Party faced with Demon that hadn't "had any" in 1500 years. She offered that if one of them would satiate her lusts, she would let them pass unmolested. Fail and not only would she eat the inadequate male, they would still have to fight her.

The rest of the group saw it for the trap it was. Robert took her up on it. Figured his high charisma would win her over. Nope, he got eaten and not the good way.

So the next morning they had to fight her short a character. It ended up in their favor. They took her out and continued on the quest.

agoraderek
05-22-2008, 10:02 PM
i would just give cheaters the old "dm" special. bolt of lightning from the sky, roll every die in my two very full crown royal bags for damage, and actually take the time to add them up. the other players would be so annoyed at the time it took to add them all up, they'd start policing the cheater FOR me after that.

i also had a little brown 20 sider, a relic from the old dice that came in the plastic tray with a crayon to color in the numbers. it was so off true it would roll 19s and 20s half the time. whenever the party got out of line, or were acting TOO silly (to the detriment of the game), i'd just pull out old brownie, place it in front of my screen, and continue. they got the point and focused on the task at hand after that...

meta-players dont bother me, i just throw enough non-standard and third party stuff at them they cant rely on their rule book knowlege.

munchkins can even get in the door, and i just tell rules lawyers that when i DM, i am the rules supreme court, so dont bother petitioning me...

Schmall
05-23-2008, 11:01 AM
munchkins can even get in the door, and i just tell rules lawyers that when i DM, i am the rules supreme court, so dont bother petitioning me...

Managed to drive on rule lawyer away by not invited or telling him when the sessions where. lol. He was awful. The other one just cares more about consistancy. He will point something out, and as DM, if i didnt agree and still let the objected action carry out, he would just wait till after the session and find the rule in the book. At least this way it didnt bog things down in-game. Sometimes it is fun discussing rules and how things are to be done.

I have one player in my group that has only managed to keep one character alive for more than 3 sessions. It was his half troll half red dragon. Guess the regeneration and fire immunity helped uh? They funny part was when he used him self as a missile from the air to take down a wooden tower a spell caster was defending. lol

nijineko
05-23-2008, 08:39 PM
Knowing a bit about plastic physics if you get the die hot enough to allow the air to move, it will deform the die.

Most gaming dice are not that accurate. The ones I have measured are on average 0.005 of an inch or more out of true from any two given sides. The dice use by Gambling Casinos are true within 0.001" to a side. So the die will favor certain numbers in the long term. If you buy enough dice you will find natural cheaters now and again. They might not cheat in your favor, but they will cheat. Everyone has run into the d20 that thinks it's a d4.

I have banned dice from my game when they obviously were not true.


i'll take your word for it. he was speaking from personal experience, so i was taking his word for it. ^^

gamescience dice are more 'true' than most any other typical gaming dice you'll find. (that's in my personal experience) ^^

tesral
05-23-2008, 09:11 PM
i'll take your word for it. he was speaking from personal experience, so i was taking his word for it. ^^

gamescience dice are more 'true' than most any other typical gaming dice you'll find. (that's in my personal experience) ^^

Even they don't have the percision of Cansio dice. Technology has left Lou behind as well. 30 years ago he had the best dice out there. No so much anymore.

GoddessGood
06-13-2008, 03:46 PM
Cheating has been sort of a quiet thing in the groups I've been in and, yes, I've been guilty of it myself.

In one group, we had a player who was an obvious cheater. Rather than deal with him openly, the GM upped the difficulty of the encounters to keep the cheater on his toes. Feeling broadsided, I and another player occasionally had to cheat just to stay alive. The cheater would then level up and start cheating worse, causing the GM to up the ante and so on. It was a vicious cycle.

What was funnier is when he brought his buddy in. He'd never seen the game before but took it upon himself to read EVERY SINGLE supplement released and then go about making a completely one sided character. He only survived due to the actions of my accomplice and I. But when he decided to loot a sinking pirate ship in demon-shark infested waters while badly wounded, wearing heavy armor and with no ability to swim ... we sort of just let him go after that.

In another group there were two players that cheated rather badly. We got one to stop by pulling him aside and talking to him about how obvious it was that the other was cheating. He went on to become an awesome and very challenging GM. The other, however, seems to be an almagamation of every bad player habit I've seen. He is, however, a devoted regular and still shows up to every game no matter how early he has to work the next day, how little money, food or sleep he's had, or how bad things are going at home for him. After getting to know him a little better, I stuck up for him once when there was a dispute between him and the GM. That dispute got me kicked out of the group. C'est la vie ...

I tend to follow the GMing rule that if it's crucial to my story that something happen or not, it just does. Roll or no roll. I should mention I rarely ever do this sort of thing, as I'd hate it if it was me on the other end of it.

Webhead
06-13-2008, 04:12 PM
I tend to follow the GMing rule that if it's crucial to my story that something happen or not, it just does. Roll or no roll. I should mention I rarely ever do this sort of thing, as I'd hate it if it was me on the other end of it.

All hail the mighty rule of "Boxed Text"! :) If you want the villain to give his dramatic monologue before the PCs attack him, well then, the PCs just have to wait until he's done.

Caution: This should only be used in instances where you want to heighten drama, inject a bit of roleplay or give the PCs some important or cool information before you "set them free" upon the encounter. Boxed Text shouldn't be used to force the players in a certain direction, but instead to suggest a course of action and let them choose whether to ignore it or not.

Valdar
06-13-2008, 04:23 PM
All hail the mighty rule of "Boxed Text"! :) If you want the villain to give his dramatic monologue before the PCs attack him, well then, the PCs just have to wait until he's done.

Caution: This should only be used in instances where you want to heighten drama, inject a bit of roleplay or give the PCs some important or cool information before you "set them free" upon the encounter. Boxed Text shouldn't be used to force the players in a certain direction, but instead to suggest a course of action and let them choose whether to ignore it or not.

Yep. NPCs get speech as a free action too. Just as long as it doesn't turn into a "cutscene"...

starfalconkd
06-15-2008, 09:27 AM
I usually point out to my players that in my games I trust them to roll the dice and be honest. If they cheat (or are lucky beyond reason) I just end up making some changes behind the screen to account for it and keep life interesting. I've told my players as much. They realize one cheater could screw the whole party and will police each other. Makes life simple.

Obah Bason
06-15-2008, 11:16 AM
I have players who roll up 7 characters and then play the one with the best stats. They do not believe me when I tell them "THAT IS CHEATING!!!"

They also use those new polyhedral dice that do not have the numbers painted, so it is VERY hard to see what number actually came up. I can not help but notice that those are the people who get a 20 one in every 5 rolls. It is not a coincidence. I really with gamers would just use big golfball size d20s so everyone can see.

Also, watch out for guys who seem to level up at the beginning of a new game session. I have seen a couple guys say "oh wait, I forgot to level up", and then they add another hit die, skill points, and attack and save bonuses, which they already added at the end of the last game.

:mad:I know why cheaters cheat. It's all a big self aggrandization thing. They are helpless and aimless in their real lives, so they feel a need to be godly in the game. It's sad.

dankster1221
06-15-2008, 12:18 PM
As a PC, I was caught cheating once. I sat next to the DM and as he was talking to me about the situation my character was in, I sneaked a peek at the hit points of the creatures (athachs) we were facing. During the battle, I accidentally corrected the DM when he messed up his math on a recent damage roll. He stared at me for about a minute, then doubled the HD on all the athach. Needless to say, that's how the DM dealt with me.

As a DM myself, I have not had a problem with cheaters per se but I have had a player or two state: "My next character is going to be _____" when their current character is still alive and well. I have had players try to intentionally kill off their characters just to do so.

boulet
06-16-2008, 07:22 AM
As a DM myself, I have not had a problem with cheaters per se but I have had a player or two state: "My next character is going to be _____" when their current character is still alive and well. I have had players try to intentionally kill off their characters just to do so.


If my guess is correct these are characters issued by dice roll creation. That's one reason to prefer point buy systems.

Shadow Dweller
06-16-2008, 07:39 AM
If my guess is correct these are characters issued by dice roll creation. That's one reason to prefer point buy systems.
No, no not always. My group is alternating bewteen me and another DM, me doing D&D, whim WoD. We have one player who get finiky and like to shift his character's around a lot so Saturday I made the comment (since my game starts next weekend) that if you want to switch characters, don't kill of you current one just to pull a new one out of the hat. Find a good reason to let him leave the group so I can use him ocasionally as an NPC. And I'm totally in favor of the "Dumb Death" rule when dealing with character deaths and re-rolls.

As to character re-roll being based on rolled abilities instead of Point Buy or Array...not here. We use, normally, an overpowered PB system and he still switches characters faster than most people change socks.

cplmac
06-16-2008, 08:11 AM
No, no not always. My group is alternating bewteen me and another DM, me doing D&D, whim WoD. We have one player who get finiky and like to shift his character's around a lot so Saturday I made the comment (since my game starts next weekend) that if you want to switch characters, don't kill of you current one just to pull a new one out of the hat. Find a good reason to let him leave the group so I can use him ocasionally as an NPC. And I'm totally in favor of the "Dumb Death" rule when dealing with character deaths and re-rolls.

As to character re-roll being based on rolled abilities instead of Point Buy or Array...not here. We use, normally, an overpowered PB system and he still switches characters faster than most people change socks.


If he is rather habitual about it, you could always tell him that he has no more socks left in the drawer to change to, but can put on one of the previous pairs. In other words, can't make a new character but can choose on of the previously discarded ones.:D

tesral
06-16-2008, 09:11 AM
If my guess is correct these are characters issued by dice roll creation. That's one reason to prefer point buy systems.

Some people just get bored easily. I've have people switch out perfectly good die roll PCs to get a different one. I had one player that would manage to oblivate her character's need to adventure and retire them. She still liked the character, but couldn't see them adventuring anymore.



Find a good reason to let him leave the group so I can use him ocasionally as an NPC. And I'm totally in favor of the "Dumb Death" rule when dealing with character deaths and re-rolls.

As to character re-roll being based on rolled abilities instead of Point Buy or Array...not here. We use, normally, an overpowered PB system and he still switches characters faster than most people change socks.

That is a short span of attention. That many character changes is disruptive. I would be using the dumb death penalty even if the character didn't die. "Sure, you can roll another PC, but you do so one level lower." That should curb the urge, I hope.





If he is rather habitual about it, you could always tell him that he has no more socks left in the drawer to change to, but can put on one of the previous pairs. In other words, can't make a new character but can choose on of the previously discarded ones.:D

About where I am coming from. Stick with something long enough to actually get some use from it. "Out of socks", I like that.


On the gripping hand I have people that discuss the next character concept well before the current PCs are retired. We like to hash out ideas.

Obah Bason
06-16-2008, 06:52 PM
As a DM myself, I have not had a problem with cheaters per se but I have had a player or two state: "My next character is going to be _____" when their current character is still alive and well. I have had players try to intentionally kill off their characters just to do so.

Ooooh, this is a pet peeve of mine. I hear this far too often. I solve this problem by new characters coming into a campaign being one level lower than the other PCs. That makes them think twice about the whole 'next character' train of thought. I hate to do it, but the alternative is to start screaming "SUCK IT UP, YA EMO QUITTER, YOU'RE NOT DEAD YET!" Not a popular declaration at all...

Thats the same to me as rolling up 7 chars and playing the most tweaked one.

nijineko
06-21-2008, 09:44 PM
i like to inflict disturbing visions and various penalties for depression and flashes from an earlier life. they get a flat percentage chance with a bonus for each successful save and suffer a "previous life flashback" whenever they are in a stressful situation like combat. just for repeat offenders. after all, i get the 'you know, i wish i had picked that instead' bit from time to time, so i allow it of my players too.

Valdar
06-22-2008, 11:02 AM
Thats the same to me as rolling up 7 chars and playing the most tweaked one.

I still get this, from even the best players. "Roll" on a character sheet has come to mean "Roll until you get a result you like, then write it down". And when I ask for rolls at the game table for stats, I get the whole "What, do you think I'm cheating?" angst, which I have to respond, "I'm not calling you a cheater, Occam's Razor is, and I just happen to be listening to it."

tesral
06-22-2008, 05:29 PM
I still get this, from even the best players. "Roll" on a character sheet has come to mean "Roll until you get a result you like, then write it down". And when I ask for rolls at the game table for stats, I get the whole "What, do you think I'm cheating?" angst, which I have to respond, "I'm not calling you a cheater, Occam's Razor is, and I just happen to be listening to it."

I have the Honest Dice. The Honest Dice used to work in a casino (Harvey's in fact) and retired to my dice box unaltered in any way. I can tell the Munchkins the minute those come out and I explain they are the fairest dice you can get your hands on. Best six sided dice made, held to rigorous standards of precision. You can hear their splicers tighten at the thought of rolling up their next super character on my vicious ultra-fair dice.

The thing is, the Honest Dice are honest dice and ARE fair. They roll sixes as often as ones. Some pretty good characters have come out of those dice the fears of the Munchkins aside.

Webhead
06-23-2008, 10:18 AM
I have the Honest Dice. The Honest Dice used to work in a casino (Harvey's in fact) and retired to my dice box unaltered in any way. I can tell the Munchkins the minute those come out and I explain they are the fairest dice you can get your hands on. Best six sided dice made, held to rigorous standards of precision. You can hear their splicers tighten at the thought of rolling up their next super character on my vicious ultra-fair dice.

The thing is, the Honest Dice are honest dice and ARE fair. They roll sixes as often as ones. Some pretty good characters have come out of those dice the fears of the Munchkins aside.

I've wanted to get my hands on a set of real casino dice ever since one of our players used to bring them to our D&D game. Does anyone know where one can cheaply and efficiently look for such dice?

agoraderek
06-23-2008, 05:33 PM
I've wanted to get my hands on a set of real casino dice ever since one of our players used to bring them to our D&D game. Does anyone know where one can cheaply and efficiently look for such dice?

i've found them in placfes that sell poker sets and whatnot. usually a gaming store that doesnt just specialize in rpgs and comics will carry them. of course, im sure you could find them on line, as well.

Obah Bason
06-23-2008, 07:30 PM
One of my friends had big oversized weighted dice that were called "Character Generating Dice" that rolled sixes most of the time. They were clearly weighted as the one face was polished aluminum, so they were meant as a novelty item. Probably 6 of 10 rolls would be 18s. This was back in the day of straight 3d6, six times mind you...

So I let him use them once, and the big ape STILL managed to roll a 3!!!! What are the odds of rolling a 3 on a trio of weighted dice!!??:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

His scores were (if I remember correctly) 18, 18, 15, 18, 3, 18 :rolleyes:

mrken
06-23-2008, 10:06 PM
Too funny. I once worked in a game store and had the opportunity to buy a set of weighted dice. The guys I gamed with would have had a cow if they knew I had those dice. Not like I would have used them, I'm just not that kind of person, but the novelty of them was great and I'm not even a dice fan. Just rolling them was fun. They had the pips on the opposite side of the sixes drilled out and filled with lead. They fairly loped across the table. Was so strange to watch them. I still kick myself for not getting them. Kind of like I miss my brass dice.

tesral
06-23-2008, 10:13 PM
My "charactetr builders" are not even weighted. They are plain d6, but numbered 5-10. Eyes bug when those hit the table. I actually let one guy use them, he still managed to have his PC die stupid, with stats between 15 and 30.

Webhead
06-23-2008, 10:21 PM
...So I let him use them once, and the big ape STILL managed to roll a 3!!!! What are the odds of rolling a 3 on a trio of weighted dice!!??:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

I remember my brother got really excited once when he thought he had uncovered his "good luck charm" for rolling high on 3d6 for D&D stats. He came to me and told me to watch him while he worked his magic. He said that he had just rolled two 18's in a row. So I watched. He took the dice and rubbed them vigorously against his forearm and then took them in his hand and cast them on the table...he rolled a "3". :lol:

He was stunned. He quietly looked at them for a moment and then quickly scooped them up and tried again...he rolled a "7". He was heartbroken...:)

tesral
06-23-2008, 10:43 PM
He was stunned. He quietly looked at them for a moment and then quickly scooped them up and tried again...he rolled a "7". He was heartbroken...:)

Lady Luck breaks another heart.

agoraderek
06-24-2008, 01:13 AM
My "charactetr builders" are not even weighted. They are plain d6, but numbered 5-10. Eyes bug when those hit the table. I actually let one guy use them, he still managed to have his PC die stupid, with stats between 15 and 30.

smart beats stats almost every time...

tesral
06-24-2008, 01:24 AM
smart beats stats almost every time...

And some of them never learn. He took a sucker bet. A deadly sucker bet.

tesral
06-24-2008, 01:40 AM
I've wanted to get my hands on a set of real casino dice ever since one of our players used to bring them to our D&D game. Does anyone know where one can cheaply and efficiently look for such dice?

I got mine at the short lived Lizards store, used from a casino. You can buy new ones on Amazon here (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000OOS3HY?ie=UTF8&redirect=true&SubscriptionId=1HVCHF1SXF821QCXT6G2). In three colors no less.

Igbutton
06-24-2008, 02:10 AM
I just did a google search for "casino dice" and "used casino dice" found plenty of sources with various prices. So you would have to do some shopping but I'm sure you could find a good deal.

Mead
06-25-2008, 12:11 AM
Used to play 2e with a real terror.. his character had fluid stats, lots of "temporary" hit points, the works. He'd manage to be everywhere the loot was and just out of range of almost every monster. We had a group of 8-10 at any time (open attendance guild-sponsored sessions), so if you weren't paying close attention, most of it would just slip by in the controlled chaos.

The situation was never handled with authority or maturity - we'd give him merciless grief about all his ambiguities every session, but the DM never actually kicked him out. So he'd show up week after week, month after month and do his little center-stage thing.

I was finally elected to run him off, probably because back then I was able to channel Jerky McJerkbutt much better than the others (and I look back at that point in my life with not a little shame), and sure enough, that final flaying was enough to make him give up the group entirely.

All that was 15 years ago in college... neither his finest hour, nor mine.

Moritz
06-25-2008, 07:57 AM
In Champions you normally want to roll low on your 'to hit'. So I took a set of normal white dice with black dots and got some white-out to color in the black dots to make the 4, 5, and 6 turn into 1, 2, and 2.

Not that I ever used them, (of course not) but they were fun to have just in case.

Law Dog
07-04-2008, 06:49 PM
In the mid-90's a friend and I had left one group and joined a fairly large AD&D group. This group was pretty much home to every bad gamer stereotype known to man, including a cheater. It didn't really matter too much as the party just seemed to roam from encounter to encounter and mob bash monsters until they fell anyway, but it was pretty pitiful sitting next to this clown and actually see the results of his d20 rolls. One night, I kept track and he rolled nothing less than an 11 (he was at +3 bonus to hit, so he called nothing less that 14) and he called approximately 25% of his rolls as "natural 20".

I don't know if nobody cared or if they were just so self absorbed that they didn't notice, but it was sad. That whole group was pretty sad. My friend and I left the game about a month after starting.

Stormhound
07-04-2008, 08:00 PM
I've probably run across more cheaters than I've caught, as I tend to assume that someone is honest until I'm smacked across the face with incontrovertible evidence to the contrary. Die-roll fudgers, players who never quite run out of HP, equipment tweakers, yeah, I've seen 'em on both sides of the screen. As a GM, I generally just let them know that they're going to be watched for a while by someone else, and if that and a restatement of my general GMing policy (I'm not out to kill your PCs, but I *am* out to challenge them) isn't enough, I just don't invite them back.

nijineko
07-14-2008, 08:00 PM
Even they don't have the percision of Cansio dice. Technology has left Lou behind as well. 30 years ago he had the best dice out there. No so much anymore.

i didn't know that. do they make polyhedrals?

tesral
07-14-2008, 11:50 PM
i didn't know that. do they make polyhedrals?

Gamescience made the first good polyhedrals. However Lou has never upgraded his stock. Chessex and ther make more and better dice now.

I should know, I like dice.

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
07-15-2008, 05:13 PM
I once cheated to fix a cheater.

After several players brought it to my attention (and I had thought I had seen it), I got in cahoots with a fair player and he agreed.

I pulled the cheater aside and told him that I thought one of the other players was cheating on his dice rolls... and if he'd keep an eye on him.

Suddenly, he stopped cheating on his rolls and paid VERY close attention to the other players.

Two years later he asked me if I had done it because he cheated... we still laugh about it, some 20 years later.
This works quite well. Had the same thing happen at our table. The cheater stopped cheating.

Thoth-Amon

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
07-15-2008, 05:25 PM
I was running WLD a few years back, not only I, but a few other players suspected one of our players of cheating. Long story short, when his character was about to die, he jumped to his feet and loudly proclaimed that my numbers were off. I paused for a second before asking, "and how would you know such a thing?" It took about 30 seconds for it to sink in that he just gave himself up. As he stormed out, the rest of the gamers just laughed. Never saw him again. Good riddance! http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/163500.html

Another good way to catch cheaters is to move treasure. We suspected a cheater while playing another module, i forget which. This player would always know where to search for treasure(he wasnt a thief), and got to be highly agitated when his searches found nothing. After the first few searches, finding nothing... and the muffled laughter from the rest of the players, the lightbulb finally went off and he shushed up. Apparently realizing he was caught. Hilarious.

Thoth-Amon

Greylond
07-15-2008, 06:09 PM
Cheaters? That's one of the things that the HackMaster Smartass Smackdown Table is for...

MythGnomer
08-13-2008, 10:06 AM
In my last D&D campaign I tried using the players-roll-all-rolls method. So instead of the mosters rolling to hit the characters' AC, the players rolled to defend against the monsters' static attack "factor." It was simply amazing how all of the sudden my creatures apparently couldn't hit the broad side of a barn! Needless to say, in my next game I went back to rolling attacks for my hapless beasties.

Cheers,
-MG

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
08-13-2008, 10:17 AM
Had a guy who had an unlimited amount of healing potions. On top of that, if everyone had a +1 magical item, his was always +2. So we decided to confront him in a hilarious way, we were in battle and were in desperate need of healing, he kept loaning us his with a promise to repay, after 10 potions or so, the GM asked him where he got all his potions. The players started laughing and he realized he was caught. I then asked, why would anyone cheat in DnD? His response, "I DONT NEED TO BE DISRESPECTED IN MY HOUSE... I DONT CHEAT. YOU ALL GET OUT!" He lost 7 players that day. Yep, pretty hilarious.

What amazed me was that he actually chose to pretend that he wasnt caught.

Thoth-Amon

mrken
08-13-2008, 10:18 AM
Cheaters? That's one of the things that the HackMaster Smartass Smackdown Table is for...


Greylond, you want to fill me in on this one? I don't think I have ever played this one.

Webhead
08-13-2008, 10:33 AM
I have one player who doesn't actually cheat, but often times when the GM asks him to make a roll, without even picking up the dice, he jokingly says: "I succeed." Sometimes he does it even before the target number is announced. He always ends up rolling the dice anyway though.

Tamerath
08-13-2008, 07:06 PM
One of my old players in D&D in high school would fudge his dice rolls ALL the time. He eventually grew out of that and would only fudge 15% of the time. :) lol One of his greatest achievements though was going though 2 years of gaming with a doctored character sheet. He was a Druid Mage multiclass with an 18 (50) Strength in 2nd Edition! :P lol you should have seen his other scores...I had him reroll or use the "original" stats he had when it was first created.

His brother was funny too...he cheated a lot on his dice rolls "Critical" and I would say, "Again?...what is that...like the 5th time in a roll?"

Awww...the old times.

Talmek
08-21-2008, 03:23 PM
I once had a player in a campaign I was runing play absolutely straight...except for his skill rolls! He seemed to never fail on anything he tried to do.

Need to jump a 50 ft chasm wearing half-plate at level 4? He did it.
Find yourself with a scroll you can't read? Give it to him.

It began to really get out of hand so I employed other players (and my personal friends) to keep an eye on him for a few sessions, and sure enough they caught him in the act. I confronted him at which point he was completely red-in-the-face angry. My other players laughed at him and this made the situation even worse. He threw a fit and started to leave, claiming we were playing favorites against him.

Thing is, he tried to leave with my books! I literally had to snatch them out of his hands as he was walking out the door of my house! I just slammed the door and let him curse us outside for a few minutes...then he left and we never saw him again.

So I guess you could call my experience, "Dealt With Any Cheaters...And Thieves?"

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
08-21-2008, 06:00 PM
I once had a player in a campaign I was runing play absolutely straight...except for his skill rolls! He seemed to never fail on anything he tried to do.

Need to jump a 50 ft chasm wearing half-plate at level 4? He did it.
Find yourself with a scroll you can't read? Give it to him.

It began to really get out of hand so I employed other players (and my personal friends) to keep an eye on him for a few sessions, and sure enough they caught him in the act. I confronted him at which point he was completely red-in-the-face angry. My other players laughed at him and this made the situation even worse. He threw a fit and started to leave, claiming we were playing favorites against him.

Thing is, he tried to leave with my books! I literally had to snatch them out of his hands as he was walking out the door of my house! I just slammed the door and let him curse us outside for a few minutes...then he left and we never saw him again.

So I guess you could call my experience, "Dealt With Any Cheaters...And Thieves?"
I wouldnt be surprised if he thought stealing your DnD stuff was justified. I just dont get some people, especially the ones that get caught and actually try to pretend that they werent caught. I mean, what's up with that?

Thoth-Amon

mrken
08-21-2008, 06:14 PM
It's all about them. The world revolves around them, just like little children. Is fairly typical these days as children are not allowed or required to grow up. Don't expect too much from them as they are just kids, so they never are expected to act mature and thus never do. We all bump into them and resent them and make jokes behind their backs, because we know the tantrum that will happen if we tell them to their faces that they should grow up. You will be the villain and it will all be your fault. They are children in adult bodies. It is all about them. :sad:

Stormcrow77
08-21-2008, 07:09 PM
It has been my experince that people who cheat at RPGs are almost always powergamers. They seem to think that by failing at this or that that some how they are less of a person.
Which leads to a point that most power gamers have very low self estem. So they create a perfect person to live out their dreams in a game.

Law Dog
08-21-2008, 08:11 PM
So I guess you could call my experience, "Dealt With Any Cheaters...And Thieves?"


Back in High School (circa 1984), I can remember a fringe member of our gaming group (he was a cousin of one of the core members) announced that one of the guys he worked with at McDonalds was a DM and wanted to run AD&D for us. Needless to say, this guy not only sucked as a GM, but also wound up stealing one of the members copy of the old Deities & Demigods with the Cthulhu and Newhon stuff in it.

Obah Bason
08-21-2008, 08:29 PM
It is ironic that cheaters miss one of the best parts of a D&D game.

Botching!

No one likes to botch, but nothing tests your Role Play Mettle like dropping a big-fat "1" on the table when you least want one. I recently dropped such a '1' in a Star Wars Saga game while trying to covertly gather info about a crime boss in a cantina. Rather than cheat and say it was an "11" (no one saw my die drop so I could have done so) I instead declared that my Rodian with a negative Charisma bonus (making my actual skill check a whopping zero) stamped his feet in the middle of the cantina and screamed at the other patrons until someone cooperated with our very simple inquiry. This despite being repeatedly warned to be discrete. The DM was so amused by my epic failure that the barkeep agreed to help me if I would leave his establishment immediately. Of course we got in huge trouble for the botch later, but it was an amusing little error to say the least.

My Rodian is far from perfect, and I like him that way. Ironically, another character who was rolled up the same day is no longer in use. I recall him, because his creator rolled him up rather than use the point buy system (which I detest) and his lowest stat just happened to be a 14 with a pair of 19s. He looked at my "by the book" rodian and said "Eeeew, you only have one 17? You should reroll that". I rolled my eyes at him. The player got bored with his Twinked PC after one outing, and moved on to another game in the same time slot at my local store.

drewshi
08-21-2008, 08:45 PM
I've been DMing this game online using Fantasy Grounds 2 since April. When I suggested doing the game online as we couldn't meet up what with the distance, someone suggested that cheating might occur. Another person pointed out that we're over forty and if we're cheating at D&D it's pretty pathetic. :lol:

Have I ever cheated? Only in the sense that, as DM, I knew the game was going to end if I didn't fudge some of my own rolls to help out the players. It's one thing for a player or two to lose a character in the course of a game, it's another when you're wiping out the party in a campaign you enjoy playing.

Bearfoot_Adam
08-21-2008, 09:37 PM
Have I ever cheated? Only in the sense that, as DM, I knew the game was going to end if I didn't fudge some of my own rolls to help out the players. It's one thing for a player or two to lose a character in the course of a game, it's another when you're wiping out the party in a campaign you enjoy playing.

Dm's don't cheat they DM.

Addis Hellfire
08-22-2008, 10:19 AM
Not sure if anybody mentioned this but: Cheater Dice. You know, those huge sets of dice that you could see from across a hallway? If anybody tries to reroll something (somebody in my group did this, sadly) and they are caught, they have to use these dice.

Valdar
08-22-2008, 11:35 AM
Dm's don't cheat they DM.

I've had my rules interpretations called "cheating" while I was DMing. This from someone who habitually cheated.

tesral
08-22-2008, 12:22 PM
I've had my rules interpretations called "cheating" while I was DMing. This from someone who habitually cheated.


"A blind man expects than no one else can see." -- The Tao of Phoenix

Chi
09-02-2008, 08:22 PM
I used to play and DM for this guy who was a "Dice spinner". He had perfected the method of spinning dice so that they were in their original position when they stopped. At first I didn't really notice, as he would start with different numbers when he "rolled". But during one adventure, he rolled 6 straight natural 20's. He stopped playing in our group after we instituted a rule where all dice must fall at least 6 inches, and had to land in a box we had for dice rolling only.

One kid used to go to the kitchen and bathroom ALOT, then on his way back he's "pop by my chair to chat". He was trying to read the encounter, see what page the monster manual was turned to, etc. So I would make sure I had several phony encounters written up, and kept the MM page turned to a random critter. Oh, the looks I would get when he'd be all prepared for a fight with say, a fire elemental, resist fire spells cast, cold spells prepared, etc., only to get attacked by gnolls.
Omg that is so funny! Why in earth would you want to cheat. It makes it so much more fun to not know what is coming. I think in high school I would cheat but I also never payed attention to the game. Now that I actually play and know what is going on I like to know how far I have gotton and how much I have grown.

Stormhound
09-02-2008, 10:06 PM
Omg that is so funny! Why in earth would you want to cheat. It makes it so much more fun to not know what is coming. I think in high school I would cheat but I also never payed attention to the game. Now that I actually play and know what is going on I like to know how far I have gotton and how much I have grown.

Some folks are just incredibly allergic to even the thought that they might not "win". It's almost as if their self-image couldn't take the body-blow that being proven less than totally superior would induce.

Actually, it's probably more than just "almost", come to think of it.

Chi
09-02-2008, 10:19 PM
Some folks are just incredibly allergic to even the thought that they might not "win". It's almost as if their self-image couldn't take the body-blow that being proven less than totally superior would induce.

Actually, it's probably more than just "almost", come to think of it.
That just seems incrediblly stupid the only way you can lose is if you die.

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
09-03-2008, 03:18 AM
Never saw this in my 30+ years of gaming untill my last campaign. Had a 30 something year old actually cheat if his character didnt always shine. He even got upset & embarrassed if his character wasnt always the savior of the party. Weird, just... very weird... and sad.

Thoth-Amon

Stormhound
09-03-2008, 06:38 AM
That just seems incrediblly stupid the only way you can lose is if you die.

Actually, the only way you can lose is if you give up. Death is not a permanent thing in all campaigns, and even in those where it is you generally get to create another character and keep playing.

It's akin, in a way, to something going on in my current campaign. I've described the area as having a limited (and relatively low) money supply, and actually gone into some detail about how coin is viewed not as real wealth, but as merely a means to help obtain it (land, goods, etc.). Yet one player complains when I don't give out 4e DMG levels of Monopoly money...err, gp, though it amounts to the same thing. Some folks aren't happy unless they're getting more and better, whereas I thought the point of playing was to enjoy the company, the game, and the setting.

Maybe I'm just an olde pharte when it comes to gaming...

Chi
09-03-2008, 03:45 PM
Actually, the only way you can lose is if you give up. Death is not a permanent thing in all campaigns, and even in those where it is you generally get to create another character and keep playing.

It's akin, in a way, to something going on in my current campaign. I've described the area as having a limited (and relatively low) money supply, and actually gone into some detail about how coin is viewed not as real wealth, but as merely a means to help obtain it (land, goods, etc.). Yet one player complains when I don't give out 4e DMG levels of Monopoly money...err, gp, though it amounts to the same thing. Some folks aren't happy unless they're getting more and better, whereas I thought the point of playing was to enjoy the company, the game, and the setting.

Maybe I'm just an olde pharte when it comes to gaming...
I agree with you too an extent about the company, game and setting, but I also really like to see my charecter grow, but would never ever cheat to make that happen.

kirksmithicus
09-10-2008, 06:31 PM
big-fat "1" hey I could use that for a new handle.


The big dice thing is funny.

Holocron
09-21-2008, 02:20 AM
I never really had issues with cheating. I always played with my closer friends and family. My brother once suspected one of my friends of cheating, things like fixing dice rolls or miscounting his points in character creation, but it wasn't a big thing and it stopped pretty quick. We always had to double check our friends' characters when they had a new one because they weren't completely familier with the point costs for skills and sometimes got their notes mixed up and didn't add the points up right, so sometimes we found some of them shortchanging themselves several points.

When I was 12 or so, I learned a method of rolling 6 sided dice so that they could land on the number I wanted about half the time, I could pass it off as a normal roll, but it took concentration and I realized it was retarded so I never really used it after the first few times when I figured out I could pull it off.

Cheating is a big reason why I don't like "rolling" stats on characters. I like the point allocation system of GURPS, because there's no randomness, your character turns out exactly as you chose to make them. And, rolling for stats gives you temptation to want to cheat your die rolls, which is lame.

Now, when I play starwars we sometimes have to roll so many dice we can't do it efficiently with real dice, so we use a dice roller program to do it for us, and I game over chat, so we're trusting each other to be truthful in our die rolls. There's no reason to lie when you report your roll to the other person, because the GM dictates the difficulty number anyway, and should be neutral about the player's success or failure. After a few years of gaming this way, I've never found cheating to be an issue.

Grumpy Old Man
09-21-2008, 12:51 PM
Buy points or roll them is good either way, I am generous enough everybody should be happy with what they end up with but I have noticed the only dice roll fudger I ever had was also a rules lawyer and one way about it, the game had to rotate around him, he was the center of the game world universe. I won't play with him anymore and neither do a lot of other people.

He didn't care much for me as a DM because somehow his character seemed to have trouble even going to the outhouse or washing his fuzzy little face without something nasty happening. Nothing fatal but amusing, at least to me and the other players. I was the only person in the group who DM'd that would tell him to his face after a little rant to "Go Home!" He wouldn't do that because he didn't have much of a life outside of D&D so he would have to police himself. He was an excellent player when he did that. Funny thing is he was a good DM but he couldn't take off his God hat when he became a player.

tesral
09-21-2008, 10:54 PM
Funny thing is he was a good DM but he couldn't take off his God hat when he became a player.

A hard thing for some people to learn. I have met people that wiill play or GM it doesn't matter to them, and I have met GMs can can't as you say, "take off the god hat". If the game does not play their way, they can't deal with it.

When you have been DMing a long time without always playing it takes some real effort.

Holocron
09-22-2008, 03:37 PM
Thats kind of true. The last time I played, I had so many trivial annoyances come up every step of the adventure that I seriously wanted to complain. I resisted until the GM finally started rewriting the rules, where I called him out... (long story, discussed in the rules laywer thread).

Chi
09-22-2008, 07:31 PM
HMM my fiance has never played always been gm but he is getting ready to play in my campain cant waiat to see how he does.

Holocron
09-23-2008, 03:03 AM
Wow... never played?? I always thought everyone started out playing and then sometimes took up GMing... Well, one of my friends from back when I first started playing was my first ever GM, it seemed like he had always been the GM and never an actual player, although he sometimes had his own character that he'd play as part of the group while also GMing. I sort of do that too usually, but they end up being pretty much the same as the other major NPCs... (as far as importance to the story)

Chi
09-23-2008, 03:08 PM
Yea well his brother him and a couple of his friends all started new and none of them had ever played and so someone had to start as the dm and so he decided to do it and just ended up staying the dm.

GoddessGood
09-26-2008, 10:57 AM
Buy points or roll them is good either way, I am generous enough everybody should be happy with what they end up with but I have noticed the only dice roll fudger I ever had was also a rules lawyer and one way about it, the game had to rotate around him, he was the center of the game world universe. I won't play with him anymore and neither do a lot of other people.

I've played with a similar personage. His first session that he joined us, he never stopped talking for five minutes, would constantly ask when it was his turn, metagamed like the dickens. He even told the players they were playing wrong and said another one of the players should play a character he'd made because it was better suited to the task at hand. The final straw was when he started dictating how a scene would go and suggesting that he or another player would be a better GM despite constant, gentle reminders that I was still in charge here. I was later informed that he also cheated on dice rolls by rerolling "tilted" ones during the same combat when he accused another player of cheating (because he was doing better in the encounter, is my guess). When asked about his behavior later, he said he was just trying to help because it seemed like I was hesitant and fumbling. He was not asked back, though he did sort of apologize for his bad "in character" behavior.

Holocron
09-28-2008, 02:46 AM
Haha, don't ya love know it alls?? Why do some people think its about winning every step of the game, when a lot of the game there's nothing in particular contested? Its hard to believe he would recommend someone to stop playing their character and take one that he made, that's dumb. The point is to play characters you like and have fun, not to beat every situation with 100% efficiency. Oh well... some people don't get it...