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Freejack
01-16-2008, 11:56 AM
So, which section would Shadowrun be discussed? Horror/Dark Future or Sci-Fi/Futuristic?

The Sci-Fi seems more appropriate but I've seen Shadowrun mentioned in threads in the Horror forum.

At the moment, I wouldn't expand the forums but maybe add a few of the more popular games to the forum descriptions so it's a bit more obvious. Especially for the games like Shadowrun where 1-3rd are more gritty and 4th seems to be a little more futuristic or Paranoia which has three styles of play; Zap, Classic or Straight.

Carl

Mulsiphix
01-16-2008, 12:15 PM
I consider Shadowrun to fit into the cyberpunk category. Cyberpunk is considered a Sci-Fi genre as far as I know. I don't think anything in Shadowrun would qualify for the Horror section. It hardly fits in with universes like Call of Cthulhu, World of Darkness, All Flesh Must Be Eaten, etc....

Farcaster
01-16-2008, 12:47 PM
Shadowrun and Cyberpunk both fit nicely in Dark Future with their Goth-Punk feel.

Mulsiphix
01-16-2008, 01:05 PM
Bah I forgot it was Horror/Dark Future. Even so most Dark Future is Sci-Fi themed though isn't it? Blade Runner the movie was true Dark Future. While it falls into the category of Cyberpunk it was a poor example of it.

Freejack
01-16-2008, 01:08 PM
See, see, now you understand :)

Shadowrun and cyberpunk in general fits well into "Dark Future". Moreso than Sci-Fi although 4th edition seems to be a lot lighter. I want to move the team into the more "cyberpunk" grittier feel but we're in the process of getting the rules down first.

Carl

Mulsiphix
01-16-2008, 01:09 PM
We're you a fan of Blade Runner Freejack? You being the Shadowrun junkie that you are, I'd like to know what a true cyberpunk fan thinks of that film. It was highly recommended to me over the years and I finally sat down and watched it a few nights ago. I was thoroughly disappointed the entire time.

Freejack
01-16-2008, 01:26 PM
At the time I really liked it. Max Headroom (blipverts) was a show I liked as well (and Freejack :D ). Those were some of the reasons I started reading William Gibson's books. Being a computer junkie first, I really liked those views of the future (from a fiction standpoint anyway :) ). Shadowrun was the first cyberpunk game I'd heard of and I picked it up.

As I said in the other thread, I would like to get my Shadowrun game a little grittier, much like those old shows/movies.

But it's been a while since I've watched Blade Runner though. All the Director's Cuts, final versions, etc have really turned me off of the idea of buying the movie. I expect I'll get it one of these days; maybe rent it.

Basic answer, I liked it way back then. I'll rent it and see how it looks now with all the changes.

Carl

tesral
01-16-2008, 01:32 PM
See, see, now you understand :)

Shadowrun and cyberpunk in general fits well into "Dark Future". Moreso than Sci-Fi although 4th edition seems to be a lot lighter. I want to move the team into the more "cyberpunk" grittier feel but we're in the process of getting the rules down first.

Carl

I would call Shadowrun a subselt of the Cyberpunk genre. It's Cyberpunk with magic. Pure Cyberpunk is fairly close to hard SF, with a highly dystopian feel.

As to how gritty a world is that is truly up to the GM. System has a small part to play, but the look and feel of a world is set by the Game Master.

Freejack
01-16-2008, 01:40 PM
I would call Shadowrun a subselt of the Cyberpunk genre. It's Cyberpunk with magic. Pure Cyberpunk is fairly close to hard SF, with a highly dystopian feel.

Yep I agree. It's the "dystopian" part of general cyberpunk (be it Cyberpunk, Shadowrun, Deus Ex, or whatever) that would have lean it towards "Dark Future" vs "Sci Fi".


As to how gritty a world is that is truly up to the GM. System has a small part to play, but the look and feel of a world is set by the Game Master.

True but the rules, cutscenes, and examples in the core and supplements also tend to set the overall tone. Yea you can make it grittier but it requires some adjustment if the books don't come across that way.

For example I'm running the Missions scenarios from the website. So far none of them (and we're on the 4th one right now) have any sort of gritty feel to them.

1. Carry a package from one end of town to another.
2. Retrieve a kidnapped executive.
3. Kidnap a child.
4. Vandalize a factory.

Yes, I can again tone it down to make it gritty but as I said, we're getting up on the rules and getting ready to head off to my arc. I'm hoping my changes will make it a little grittier. We'll see :)

Carl

Mulsiphix
01-16-2008, 01:41 PM
Gritty is a world thrown around very lightly with Cyberpunk but I've never actually seen it defined. What exactly do you guys interpret gritty to be? For me it means darkness, depressing atmospheres, society suffers emotionally but nobody talks about it. Themes like drug usage, overpopulation, pollution, and crime fit perfectly into such settings. So in essence I think gritty means muted societal oppression of the masses by megalomaniacal entities, of which organizations are the most common.

Mulsiphix
01-16-2008, 01:44 PM
LOL I just looked up dystopian and see that I knew the definition after all (red in above post). Pfft so if what I described as gritty isn't really the definition of gritty, what is?

Freejack
01-16-2008, 01:50 PM
In general yea, I agree. I'd want to merge in some Sin City elements for example.

If you're a member of a corp, you're golden. As long as you're a good little sheep. Once you get outside that bubble, you're exposed to the seedier side of town, pollution, drugs, riots, and lots of "me first, you last" mentality.

Mr. Johnson is only hiring your team because the job is too dirty to expose his (or her) employees to. There is mistrust, betrayal, and every man for himself so you have to look out for yourself.

Get at least a third up front and expect flak from the Johnson about getting the balance.

Carl

MortonStromgal
01-19-2008, 01:44 AM
I would say Sci-Fi because Shadowrun has some level of silly to it. Cyberpunk is hmmm well I would put that in Sci-Fi to because of the Hard Sci-fi feel but SLA Industries is the real tough one to decide on. Obsidian and Dark Conspiracy would go in Dark Future

My 1/50th of a dollar

Mulsiphix
01-19-2008, 01:50 AM
Define what you mean by gritty guys. There was talk about it earlier but if dystopian describes Cyberpunk, how do you make a Cyberpunk setting more "gritty"?

tesral
01-19-2008, 04:48 AM
Define what you mean by gritty guys. There was talk about it earlier but if dystopian describes Cyberpunk, how do you make a Cyberpunk setting more "gritty"?

A rougher style and atmosphere if you will. It isn't the game system that makes something gritty it is the GM. How do you describe your world.

If the PC have an easy time, it's not gritty. If they struggle for every little thing, it's gritty. If you get graphic in you description of the squalor of an area, that is grit.

Is death easy? Can it be corrected? No resurrection is gritter than being able to "fix" character death, by magic or science.

It's ambiance, not system for the most part.

Drohem
01-19-2008, 07:03 PM
That was a good description of by tersal. :)

/agree

Mulsiphix
01-19-2008, 08:44 PM
So gritty-ness is basically a measure of how dystopian a setting is then. Almost like our militaries Defcon system. When I look at it like this it explains why I Defcon Lv5/4 but find Defcon Lv3/2/1 so gritty the setting is downright depressing.

Freejack
01-19-2008, 10:15 PM
Right. That's sort of what I said earlier. It's not the rules per se, but when you read them and the examples, they set the tone and you have to mentally adjust if you want to make it grittier.

So I've been running missions (as mentioned). None of the descriptions of the missions are gritty.

"You and your team meet Mr. Johnson at the ritzy Aspen Grove. You're greeted by virtual waiter who welcomes you and presents a virtual menu of all the fine foods and drinks."

It's my fault though. I need to think about how I want to describe things and how authorities respond. Right now "Lone Star" responds just like cops do. They need to respond like paid security. They're not there to provide "police" for the public good. They might be there because "Mom and Pop" has paid their monthly minimum payment to get Lone Star to come out in 4 hours or less (Gold contract).

I'll get there though. Rules are one thing. Ambiance is another.

Carl

tesral
01-20-2008, 12:41 AM
I'll get there though. Rules are one thing. Ambiance is another.

Carl

Ambiance takes time. A new game can feel fairly, empty. White room syndrome. You don't know what to describe so you don't describe. Over time you get a handle on your game world and get into the look and feel.

I'm in one of those right now as a player. A fairly new DM who is still finding his voice. He world is a bit on the fuzzy side. I am trying to help without burying the poor guy. He is 20 years old. He's new. I keep shocking him with the depth of my general knowledge, by hey, I'm 50. I have been around that block a few times.

Him, "It's a ship, you need a crew."
Me: "Fore and aft or square rigged?"
Him: Ah....
I describe the two.
Him: Square rigged. Two masts."
Me: "Two masted brig we will need 15 to 20 crew to handle her."

This sort of thing is common. He is learning and is willing to learn. For my part I am willing to step back and let him populate his world as he sees fit.

Freejack
01-20-2008, 12:03 PM
I think that's a big thing that's helping me. Lots of experience gaming and I'm 50 as well. Lots of personal background experience (it's one of the reasons the Matrix stuff feels a little odd being a computer geek :) ).

Carl

tesral
01-20-2008, 01:44 PM
I think that's a big thing that's helping me. Lots of experience gaming and I'm 50 as well. Lots of personal background experience (it's one of the reasons the Matrix stuff feels a little odd being a computer geek :) ).

<VOICE="geezer"> Becasue we're old dammit! </VOICE>

You just absorb things. Being an omnivorous reader certainly helps. I believe that learning should stop slightly after death.

Computer geek and gamer seem to go hand in hand to some degree. I've met geeks that were not gamers, and a few gamers that were not geeks, but they are the fringes.

Here I sit in my room full of computers and gaming books. Not to mention all the Star Trek models.

Mulsiphix
01-20-2008, 01:57 PM
I hope to have players that are interested enough to regularly ask questions. Questions help flesh out a scene in general, regardless of the world or background already established. Inquisitive players make for gaming with a real sense of depth.

Freejack
01-20-2008, 08:38 PM
Hah. I have players that make things up for me :p

Todays game for instance. They needed to get together to meet the new guys so the one guy pipes up with "we're going to meet at The Happy Ork" bar in the back room. Piece of cake to build up around that.

That happened throughout today's and the first part of the mission two weeks ago.

Very good Shadowrun game today.

Carl

tesral
01-20-2008, 10:21 PM
Hah. I have players that make things up for me :p

Todays game for instance. They needed to get together to meet the new guys so the one guy pipes up with "we're going to meet at The Happy Ork" bar in the back room. Piece of cake to build up around that.


I like it when that happens. I like players that are bold enough to place setting when they know the field is open.