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Mulsiphix
01-15-2008, 01:29 AM
I know quite a few of this forums population have quite a wide range of experience with multiple game systems. I'm quite interested in finding out what your least favorite gaming systems are and why.

For me it is MechWarrior RPG. The entire BattleTech product line was for wargaming. I was excited when I found out about MechWarrior RPG because I could really flesh out my mechwarrior characters and take the game to a whole new level. I was utterly disgusted to find out that this game was not intended for such roles. It was designed to allow RP in the universe of BattleTech and it actually states that this system was not created, nor is it ideal, for playing as your mechwarriors. Why in the hell is it called MechWarrior RPG then? WHY?! :mad:

fmitchell
01-15-2008, 02:01 AM
Back in the day I probably played a couple of really bad RPGs I've blotted from my memory. However, the one that stands out as my least favorite is Champions/Hero System, even though I played in a number of Champions games.

Curiously, I like GURPS and dislike Hero, which may strike some people as perverse or even blasphemous.


GURPS's sweet spot is for mere mortals, no matter how heroic, and they come out reasonably well. Every character in Hero that I've seen, even normals, spies, fantasy characters, and far-future people read more like low-powered superheroes with a theme. A few Murphy's Rules describe how "normal" people in Hero can take unrealistic amounts of punishment, including falling out of a three-story window without significant damage.

GURPS has only a few stats, and fairly minimal complication (at least after character generation). Every action that requires a dice-roll is essentially a skill roll, plus damage rolls for physical attacks; Hero (last I saw) had one 3d6 roll-under system for skills, and another Nd6 roll-over system for power use.

Disadvantages are really disadvantages, defined very precisely, and not hand-wavy "tragic flaws" the GM invokes only when he feels like it.

Advantages, disadvantages, and skills are mostly in plain English, and not some arcane superposition of powers in frameworks, with its own jargon. (Although, to be fair, GURPS 4th Edition added Enhancements and Limitations that almost work like Hero ... but at least they're stated as percentages, not parameters in an odd formula.)


I'm not really a superhero fan, so perhaps that biases me even further against Hero.

Having said that, except for truly pathological rules, having a good GM and a system suited to the type of game he runs often matters more than technical details of the system.

Mulsiphix
01-15-2008, 04:05 AM
Having said that, except for truly pathological rules, having a good GM and a system suited to the type of game he runs often matters more than technical details of the system.Well said. A talented DM can turn even the ugliest of systems into enjoyable fun. Memorable fun? Well that is another thing altogether :rolleyes:

tesral
01-15-2008, 07:27 AM
Basic Roleplaying: Chunky system that wants fine detail. Ironically it is a bad fit for CoC which is the prime user.

Rifts: Great idea, lousy execution. It makes AD&D look elegant by comparison. They have a different mechanic for every little thing and they have a great many things.

Traveler: "What do you mean I'm dead, we haven't finished rolling up the characters?" For that if nothing else. The GURPS version is a vast improvement.

Tunnels & Trolls: One of the late 70s "This & That" games. Chosen because it really wanted to be D&D, but couldn't.

Bunnies & Burrows: THE WHAT!? OK, Watership Down was a cool book, but really. Another "This & That" game jumping on the then new RPG market.

Mulsiphix
01-15-2008, 08:43 AM
Traveler: "What do you mean I'm dead, we haven't finished rolling up the characters?" For that if nothing else. The GURPS version is a vast improvement.

I'm surprised Traveler was up there. I thought that was one of the MONSTER FAMOUS category pen and papers like D&D, WOD, and Warhammer FRP/40K.

tesral
01-15-2008, 10:53 AM
I'm surprised Traveler was up there. I thought that was one of the MONSTER FAMOUS category pen and papers like D&D, WOD, and Warhammer FRP/40K.

You don't have to be good to be popular. Look at Windows.

Drohem
01-15-2008, 11:42 AM
Wow, this list could easily become large :eek:

I'll stick to mainstream games.

I'd have to say the Palladium/Rifts system. If you're power-gamerz and gun-nutz, then these systems are the ones for you.

Now, any time you mention these two things in a RPG discussion, Palladium and firearms, you are sure to start a flame war; and I did both in one sentence :eek:.

It's not my intention to start a flame war on the merits/flaws of Palladium and the realistic portrayal of firearms in RPGs.

All I am saying is that the Palladium game system is not my cup of tea. I find the system seriously out-dated and clunky. It has no rhyme or reason to me. The skill system is horrific and leveling is almost pointless. Don't even get me started on MDC weapons and armor. There is no balance between sourcebook. They are poorly edited and the information is buried in text.

I feel the same way about GURPS and Hero as fmitchell. Character creation in Hero seems more complex to me than GURPS. Also, supers is the least favorite genre for me.

I agree with tersal about Rifts: great ideas, craptastic systems.

I completely disagree with tersal about Basic Role-Playing. I played RuneQuest III for many years. I also ran a very successful Elfquest game for a year or so. The issue with Basic Role-playing has to more with the fact that Chaosium Inc. had never codified our unified the system until the new edition of BRP, which is scheduled to come out this month or next month. The Zero Edition Advanced Readers Copy is out, and I have a copy.

I agree with tersal on the other systems he noted.

However the worst system that stands out in my mind (at the moment :)) is for a game called Time and Time Again. In my mind, this game is similiar to Palladium/Rifts: damn great concept and setting with lousy game mechanics. It is a time travel RPG. I really like the science behind time travel in this game, and I like the concept that that time travelers belong to a paramilitary organization based of the French Foreign Legion. If you are into time travel theories, then this is the game for you. However, the game system was ridiculous. It was based of a d200 roll. It was seriously wackado in that regard. I ignored the game system and created a BRP/RQ and GURPS version of this game genre and campaign which was successful while weew played them.

Drohem
01-15-2008, 11:44 AM
You don't have to be good to be popular. Look at Windows.


hehe...ROFL...well said, Sir!

jade von delioch
01-15-2008, 11:50 AM
D20: less role playing , too much roll playing. Half the feats should be skills, no real armor rules that govern the armors capability to be destroyed or damaged beyond repair, Spell and forget never made sense, spending tons XP to make magic items does not make sense when time and materials will cost you enough, lacking in skill selection, most Xp gained is through combat only which does not support a role playing game, but only a combat/wargame. I'm sure theres more, but i have hopefully forgotten it.

Hero System: shouldn't need a calculator to play a game. combat takes to long.

most WoD: with all the powerful monstrous creatures running around why is the human race still alive. Especially when the player characters are powerful monsters who are weak in comparison to the opposition. Plus the new Mage book is a pain to read with all the glossy gold and silver writing.

Fudge/Fate: over complected looking with all the skill trees. Plus lacks durability since half the system is pick and choose.

jade von delioch
01-15-2008, 11:55 AM
It's not my intention to start a flame war on the merits/flaws of Palladium and the realistic portrayal of firearms in RPGs.

check out Fireborn by fantasy flight games. Here the firearms are more realistic and can kill possibly in one shot.


All I am saying is that the Palladium game system is not my cup of tea. I find the system seriously out-dated and clunky. It has no rhyme or reason to me. The skill system is horrific and leveling is almost pointless. Don't even get me started on MDC weapons and armor. There is no balance between sourcebook. They are poorly edited and the information is buried in text.

You should at least check out the 2nd edition of Beyond the Supernatural. Its had a fully loaded overhaul done to it and looks completely different than any of their other games.

Mulsiphix
01-15-2008, 12:00 PM
Lots of good information here. Anybody have any comments about the Star Fleet Battles game?

Drohem
01-15-2008, 12:08 PM
check out Fireborn by fantasy flight games. Here the firearms are more realistic and can kill possibly in one shot.



You should at least check out the 2nd edition of Beyond the Supernatural. Its had a fully loaded overhaul done to it and looks completely different than any of their other games.


Fireborn, isn't that game where you play dragons? I've vaguely heard of this game.

I like Nightbane a lot :)

Drohem
01-15-2008, 12:08 PM
D20: less role playing , too much roll playing. Half the feats should be skills, no real armor rules that govern the armors capability to be destroyed or damaged beyond repair, Spell and forget never made sense, spending tons XP to make magic items does not make sense when time and materials will cost you enough, lacking in skill selection, most Xp gained is through combat only which does not support a role playing game, but only a combat/wargame. I'm sure theres more, but i have hopefully forgotten it.

Hero System: shouldn't need a calculator to play a game. combat takes to long.

most WoD: with all the powerful monstrous creatures running around why is the human race still alive. Especially when the player characters are powerful monsters who are weak in comparison to the opposition. Plus the new Mage book is a pain to read with all the glossy gold and silver writing.

Fudge/Fate: over complected looking with all the skill trees. Plus lacks durability since half the system is pick and choose.

All vaild points :)

jade von delioch
01-15-2008, 12:16 PM
Fireborn is the game where you play the reincarnated souls of dragons who have be reborn as men in the modern days. You discover who you were once because magic is slowly returning to the world which is waking up all mythic creatures. You also learn about your past life by way of flashbacks to the mythic age which the players play out as there true dragon selves. Very kool game but Fantasy flight games never promotes any of their games and since no one would buy something that they had no idea about it never went anywhere. but theres a whole community that still makes stuff for it with the help of one of the original designers.

fmitchell
01-15-2008, 02:46 PM
I will respectfully disagree on Fudge/FATE and BRP.

Fudge and FATE were always "game construction kits" rather than polished games; that might be offputting to sum, but I like tinkering. Also, FATE is evolving. Spirit of the Century, which I listed as my favorite in the other thread, is an example of the simplicity and elegance of FATE when applied to a particular genre and play style. Hopefully we'll see the [I]Dresden Files[I] RPG soon for a grittier version of FATE, and eventually a "universal" FATE.

BRP isn't a favorite game system, but it's a nice generic alternative, and all the fiddly combat rules from RuneQuest have dropped by the wayside. It's still not as "narrativist" as I'd like, but with the right tweaks it's another system that gets out of your way.

BTW, "Star Fleet Battles", last I saw, was purely a war game, and an extremely complex one to boot. In high school a friend and I once played a battle between two ships, just to get the feel for the rules; two hours and six rounds later, we'd barely dented each others' shields. Maybe subsequent editions streamlined the rules; I hope so.

There's "Prime Directive", an RPG based in the SFB universe; currently there are GURPS and d20 versions, with the advantages and disadvantages of each. (Actually I haven't seen the d20 version; hopefully it's an improvement over d20 Modern.)

Drohem
01-15-2008, 04:49 PM
Fireborn is the game where you play the reincarnated souls of dragons who have be reborn as men in the modern days. You discover who you were once because magic is slowly returning to the world which is waking up all mythic creatures. You also learn about your past life by way of flashbacks to the mythic age which the players play out as there true dragon selves. Very kool game but Fantasy flight games never promotes any of their games and since no one would buy something that they had no idea about it never went anywhere. but theres a whole community that still makes stuff for it with the help of one of the original designers.

Ok, now I'll have to try and find this used somewhere as well. Shh! Don't tell my wife ;)

Mulsiphix
01-15-2008, 05:08 PM
I've got my eye on several Fantasy Flight Games. I can't figure out why they don't advertise more though. I stumbled across them while search for info on the StarCraft board game. Top notch stuff though. Thanks for the info about SFB fmitchell.

rabkala
01-15-2008, 05:46 PM
Traveller: I actually agree with tesral here, nonsensical character creation and square shaped rules filling round slots.

WoD: Is it a game, really? Do any 'normal' people play it? The system is too light in important areas and every (little as it was) experience with it was dealing with people who had no base in reality. They were the Larp type who gave role players a bad name.

Shadowrun: The original rule set was horrible despite a great setting. It was along the lines of the original Star Wars D6. Combat was impossible. Overall, it had many holes.

Diceless (think it was Amber, but I am not positive): Not so much of a game as guidelines on cooperative story telling. Chaotic and way too light to be a game system in my mind. I'll write my own story, thanks.

Twilight 2000: Can't really tell you much here. I don't remember much of the rules, what little I saw of them. I played with an ex-military guy, rules were on a need to know basis and we never needed to know. I do remember that no body had fun despite being attracted to the idea.

jade von delioch
01-15-2008, 08:34 PM
ya, i have as of yet to see spirit of the century, but i am waiting patiently for the dresden files rpg.

Have never seen the first edition stuff for shadowrun so i couldn't really comment, but i would suggest checking a later edition. Often time people will think that a system stinks because of the one edition they tried out without check out any newer edition that comes out for it later down the road.

Mulsiphix
01-15-2008, 09:02 PM
Have never seen the first edition stuff for shadowrun so i couldn't really comment, but i would suggest checking a later edition. Often time people will think that a system stinks because of the one edition they tried out without check out any newer edition that comes out for it later down the road.GURPS 3E vs 4E and Exalted 1E vs 2E both come to mind. Sometimes new editions really do fix a games glaring weaknesses. Exalted 2E isn't perfect but it is light years ahead of 1E.

jade von delioch
01-15-2008, 10:05 PM
thats good to know

rabkala
01-15-2008, 10:25 PM
ya, i have as of yet to see spirit of the century, but i am waiting patiently for the dresden files rpg.

Have never seen the first edition stuff for shadowrun so i couldn't really comment, but i would suggest checking a later edition. Often time people will think that a system stinks because of the one edition they tried out without check out any newer edition that comes out for it later down the road.
Agreed. I have heard great things of the latest Shadowrun. I would like to revisit it again.
I know that Star Wars was far better in d20 than in d6 (IMHO) and seems even much improved in Saga.
I played Rifts in the 90's and must admit I liked it. While some things were unfamiliar, I did enjoy the games. I have tried many things briefly, but eventually returned to the D&D fold simply due to comfort and availability of players. Many things I would like to revisit.
I also know, as fmitchell (http://www.penandpapergames.com/forums/member.php?u=222) stated, that the DM/GM/storyteller can greatly influence a persons perspective on a game system.

tesral
01-16-2008, 03:28 AM
Lots of good information here. Anybody have any comments about the Star Fleet Battles game?

The RPG version Prime Directive? I have a copy. (Make that Trek in three flavors, i keep forgetting that one.) I never liked how they twisted the basic Trek idea of "Strange New Worlds" to make a war game, then get all arms race about it. I have done my share of starship minis, but it was the older Lou Zacki version we played and then heavily modified. I've not done the Task Force Games SFB. Our version was open floor, no hexes.

1e Shadowrun. Yea, the system was premature.

Drohem
01-16-2008, 10:24 AM
Yeah, early Shadowrun was a great example of awsome IP with craptastic system.

tesral
01-16-2008, 12:27 PM
Yeah, early Shadowrun was a great example of awsome IP with craptastic system.

Sort of like D&D Zero Edition. The rules were unplayable until the Greyhawk supplement. Even then it was problematic.

Many of the early RPGs suffered from less than elegant rules. You are going to have stumbles along the road of progress when you are inventing an entire genre.

Mulsiphix
01-16-2008, 12:45 PM
Bah D&D wasn't inventing the genre. They were capitalizing on it, quite successfully I might add.

fmitchell
01-16-2008, 03:28 PM
Bah D&D wasn't inventing the genre. They were capitalizing on it, quite successfully I might add.

Uh, no.

Original D&D was the *first* and only true RPG, back in 1974. There were precursors, to be sure, but D&D was the father of the entire RPG industry.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_and_Dragons#Game_history .

jade von delioch
01-16-2008, 04:30 PM
but what does that have to do with anything.

fmitchell
01-16-2008, 05:22 PM
but what does that have to do with anything.

Just pointing out that, while you could argue whether D&D is the best or the worst, it was the first, and still the most popular. To some extent, every RPG has been a reaction to D&D ... often "this is stupid, we can do it better", but still.

D&D is not a "follower" in the broadest sense of the term, although some editions, notably 3.x, incorporated innovations derived elsewhere, e.g. a unified resolution mechanic, skills, Action Points, and genre-independent rules.


EDIT: I may have misinterpreted what tesral and Mulsiphix meant by "genre". Certainly D&D's version of "fantasy" is a mishmash of Tolkien, Moorcock, Vance, and miscellaneous other authors, so in that sense it merely capitalizes on ideas present in half-forgotten works.

On the other hand, D&D's version of role-playing brought together different trends in wargaming, negotiation-based board games, "cops & robbers", improvisational theatre, and historical reenactments ... which isn't creation ex nihilo, but few new art forms or media are. (It might be easier to refer to RPGs as a "medium", just like comics, animation, and prose are media.)

TAROT
01-16-2008, 07:38 PM
Curiously, I like GURPS and dislike Hero, which may strike some people as perverse or even blasphemous.

I fell down on the other side of the fence, though I really only like Hero for lower-powered games, and don't think that it works particularly well for supers.

But for my worst gaming experience, I'd have to go with Aftermath! Over two hours to create a mutant rabbitoid character by rolling on various charts and tables. Begin play, wandering through the woods, and come across a farm, shout "Hello!", walk up the house and peek in the window, and promptly (after several minutes of determining range and hit locations and damage, etc.) have my head blown off by some farmer with a shotgun.

OK, a large portion of the blame goes to the GM here, but a system with random chargen should be quicker to make a character than one that doesn't, and it took five to ten minutes to resolve a one-action combat.

Drohem
01-16-2008, 08:01 PM
hehehe...good old Aftermath! :)

Mulsiphix
01-16-2008, 09:12 PM
I just meant that D&D didn't invent the fantasy genre. I agree it was the first true RPG and that before D&D all that existed were war games. I've seen quite a bit of mention of Aftermath and it is usually good. I'm not trying to defend it at all but if you played with a nice DM, were familiar with the rules and game mechanics, and had some more experience under your belt, it might not take a full five to ten minutes to resolve a single action.

jade von delioch
01-16-2008, 11:40 PM
Just pointing out that, while you could argue whether D&D is the best or the worst, it was the first, and still the most popular. To some extent, every RPG has been a reaction to D&D ... often "this is stupid, we can do it better", but still.

D&D is not a "follower" in the broadest sense of the term, although some editions, notably 3.x, incorporated innovations derived elsewhere, e.g. a unified resolution mechanic, skills, Action Points, and genre-independent rules.



But in the same line of thought all Gygax did was put rules to what children do, which is play pretend or house. A course children didn't need rules to play either.

Yes, it was the first to put rules to such an event, but i have always felt that if he didn't not do it some one have. The logic at the time was- ok i like war games but why all the minis that each equal more than one. why can it not just equal one. Then people had fun acting out those same character, which lead to rpgs.

fmitchell
01-17-2008, 08:15 AM
I just meant that D&D didn't invent the fantasy genre.

Fair enough. Then again, I vaguely recall mashups between cyberpunk and fantasy were "in the air" before Shadowrun -- the circle of aspiring writers I was in after college wrote two, although we aspired much and published nothing -- but I can't think of any published examples.

Drohem
01-17-2008, 09:47 AM
Everybody is a hack in one way or another ;)

MortonStromgal
01-17-2008, 11:46 AM
WoD: Is it a game, really? Do any 'normal' people play it? The system is too light in important areas and every (little as it was) experience with it was dealing with people who had no base in reality. They were the Larp type who gave role players a bad name.


I'd like to point out that all the bad press came from one of the many D&D style LARPS out there. Tipper Gore infamous D&D is the devil outburst came from that. If you watch the Documentary on Nero (a D&D style boffer LARP) you'll see that somehow they managed to find the LARPers that give all RPG players a bad name. Though in recent news the Shadowrun LARPers are working toward being known for a new form of crazy. (Stealing panties...)
At leased this time no one died :D

As for my leased favorite. I'm going to say AD&D because its one I am still willing to play, grudgingly. Macross & TMNT get honorable mentions, I love the settings enough to try to ignore the Palladium system.

Worst PRG ever - Star Frontiers but I dont think the GM knew the rules and Im not willing to buy it to find out. That may be unfair but it is what it is.

Drohem
01-17-2008, 12:18 PM
Worst PRG ever - Star Frontiers but I dont think the GM knew the rules and Im not willing to buy it to find out. That may be unfair but it is what it is.

SF is free on the net now so you can check it out for free now :)

http://www.starfrontiersman.com/

SF was the second RPG I ever played, and so I have fond memories of it.

Farcaster
01-17-2008, 01:07 PM
WoD: Is it a game, really? Do any 'normal' people play it? The system is too light in important areas and every (little as it was) experience with it was dealing with people who had no base in reality. They were the Larp type who gave role players a bad name.

I played and GM'd in the original World of Darkness and I enjoyed it. I actually found the StoryTeller system easy to understand, arbitrate, and dynamic enough to allow me to create robust characters. The only thing I was really ambivalent about was the success based system that inevitably ended up making me pick up and throw more than a handful of d10s.

By the way, is "normal" a good thing? I've never thought so. :cool:


The RPG version Prime Directive? I have a copy. (Make that Trek in three flavors, i keep forgetting that one.)

YAK! I had forgotten about that system. When Prime Directive came out, I was still playing the FASA version of Star Trek. And after I read over Prime Directive, we were still using the FASA rules. It was a far too complicated and convoluted piece of rubbish -- in my never-to-be-humble opinion. It wasn't until Last Unicorn Games put out a Star Trek system that I converted from the original FASA version.

tesral
01-17-2008, 03:44 PM
OK, a large portion of the blame goes to the GM here, but a system with random chargen should be quicker to make a character than one that doesn't, and it took five to ten minutes to resolve a one-action combat.

ACK!! My brain! How could I forget the single worst system I have ever played. Harnmaster. Talk about a convoluted combat system. It took four rolls to resolve a single move in combat, to get a zero result. The mechanics would make a rules lawyer weep.

I suppose it is that amnesia that comes over traumatic episodes in your life to spare you the pain.

Drohem
01-17-2008, 04:13 PM
hehe...yes, Harnmaster was complicated, but I wouldn't rate as one of the worst games ever, IMHO.

MortonStromgal
01-17-2008, 08:14 PM
SF is free on the net now so you can check it out for free now :)

http://www.starfrontiersman.com/

SF was the second RPG I ever played, and so I have fond memories of it.


Darn you and your logic!

Mulsiphix
01-18-2008, 01:04 AM
Fair enough. Then again, I vaguely recall mashups between cyberpunk and fantasy were "in the air" before Shadowrun -- the circle of aspiring writers I was in after college wrote two, although we aspired much and published nothing -- but I can't think of any published examples.It was called Neuromancer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuromancer) and predates Shadowrun by five years. Shadowrun was based on it.

fmitchell
01-18-2008, 04:36 AM
It was called Neuromancer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuromancer) and predates Shadowrun by five years. Shadowrun was based on it.

Neuromancer gave us cyberpunk, but the idea to plop wizards, dragons, orcs, elves, etc. in the middle of a cyberpunk world isn't in any published fiction I'm aware of.

Mulsiphix
01-18-2008, 07:46 AM
Very true. In hopes of proving you wrong I did quite a bit of wiki searching and came up with nothing. Touche sir ;)

MortonStromgal
01-18-2008, 12:17 PM
Do Androids dream electric sheep -> Blade Runner -> Neromancer -> cyberpunk -> shadowrun

Tolkien -> D&D -> shadowrun

at leased thats how I see it.

Mulsiphix
01-18-2008, 09:05 PM
D&D isn't just based on Tolkien though. Hell they had to change quite a bit due to Tolkien owning a great deal of the original names Gygax tried to borrow. Pretty sure D&D is the result of inspiration from multiple authors, among them Tolkien is the most widely known and influential.

jade von delioch
01-18-2008, 09:26 PM
which can be said about almost any fantasy based novel, movie, or game. Tolkien and C.S. lewis were part of a group of people who brought Fantasy novels into the mainstream and past the usual faerie tale that they had before then. They were all friends no less and went to a pub together once a week to sit around, drink, and inspire each other. This is one of the reasons why i hate when people try to say Tolkien was better than C.S. Lewis. Lewis inspired Tolkien to finish the lord of the rings and Tolkien reintroduced Lewis to Christ which in turned helped/inspired him to write the chronicles of Narnia.

Drohem
01-18-2008, 10:06 PM
yeah, I've said before and I'll say it again...everybody's a hack!

Mulsiphix
01-18-2008, 10:24 PM
There is no room for originality in today's society. As long as the past remains printed in the present, everybody will remain "inspired" by previous greats. Both a great and horrible place to be lol :D

Drohem
01-18-2008, 10:26 PM
Yeah, I'm not saying it's necessarily a bad thing...some cool stuff has done from inspiration of others' work.

Mulsiphix
01-18-2008, 10:28 PM
"Some" is the understatement of all time sir ;)

jade von delioch
01-19-2008, 12:27 PM
hey, just remember that even people like Tolkien needed to gather inspiration from somewhere. Be it friends or old Faerie tales.

Mulsiphix
01-19-2008, 12:46 PM
Tolkien was a monster. The man drew inspiration from the world around him. Truly a smart man (biography (http://www.tolkiensociety.org/tolkien/biography.html)).

MortonStromgal
01-19-2008, 01:40 PM
He is best know in literary circles for his essay on Beowulf. I have not read it but everyone I know who went into high level English classes said its great.

tesral
01-19-2008, 03:22 PM
Do Androids dream electric sheep -> Blade Runner -> Neromancer -> cyberpunk -> shadowrun

Tolkien -> D&D -> shadowrun

at leased thats how I see it.

Abput how I see it. Shadowrun is the love child of Cyberpunk and Fantasy.

tesral
01-19-2008, 03:27 PM
D&D isn't just based on Tolkien though. Hell they had to change quite a bit due to Tolkien owning a great deal of the original names Gygax tried to borrow. Pretty sure D&D is the result of inspiration from multiple authors, among them Tolkien is the most widely known and influential.

A highly important influence and one most people don't even remember is Jack Vance and The Dying Earth. The fire and forget magic system is a near total lift right out of that book. The 0e Afterword says as much.

jade von delioch
01-19-2008, 05:56 PM
i Hate fire and forget

Mulsiphix
01-19-2008, 07:41 PM
Fire and forget never made much sense to me. How in the hell can you learn something, use it, and then have no idea how you just accomplished said magic? Does the act of using the spell wipe your memory of that spell or what?

jade von delioch
01-19-2008, 07:59 PM
its just a cheap game mechanic

tesral
01-19-2008, 11:43 PM
I'm not overly fond of it either. One of the reasons I got rid of it.

Mulsiphix
01-20-2008, 07:45 AM
I would be interested in reading that book that it was taken from. I'm sure it seems like a cool mechanic in the book but I just can't imagine how that could be.

Drohem
01-20-2008, 11:10 AM
Well, luckily there is a Dying Earth RPG out now! ;)

http://www.dyingearth.com/

It's pretty cool :D

gdmcbride
01-21-2008, 06:09 AM
Well, luckily there is a Dying Earth RPG out now! ;)

http://www.dyingearth.com/

It's pretty cool :D

I own a copy of it. I didn't buy it, I swagged a few years ago at the GAMA Trade Show. It's an interesting read with a few good ideas but ...

And this is a gigantic but...

I don't need another Fantasy RPG that merely has a few good ideas. I am drowning in fantasy RPGs. So, I read it through once, stuck it on my shelf and there it sits. Maybe I'll have to open it up again.

Gary

gdmcbride
01-21-2008, 06:19 AM
And to get back to this original threads stated purpose, we haven't even touched on the worse RPGs of all time. Not even close.

For a ... ahem, scholarly discussion of this topic, I recommend:

http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/Worst_RPGs_ever

Traveller 1st edition may have its problems. Shadowrun 1st edition was ... yeah, quirky. Bunnies and Burrows ... who besmirched that game? That game rocks! B&B is bloody brilliant.

Those games don't even place.

RaHoWa (Racial Holy War) -- the RPG of racial purity, Aryan domination and jew killing -- makes them all look like Citizen Kane.

If you insist upon actually published games by main stream authors -- Cyborg Commando by Gary Gygax. There is a reason that, even though written by the most famous game designer ever, you still haven't heard of it.

Gary

Mulsiphix
01-21-2008, 08:13 AM
RaHoWa (Racial Holy War) -- the RPG of racial purity, Aryan domination and jew killing -- makes them all look like Citizen Kane.:eek: You've got to be kidding right? Who in the hell would make something like that. Even more disturbing is who in the hell would agree to sell such a product?

rabkala
01-21-2008, 08:52 AM
Great link.

I have actually heard of RoHoWa and Fatal on several occasions. It does make you wonder what these people were thinking. And worse yet, how it was ever produced.

Many on that list, I never heard of and never played. Probably luckily.

I did see the Indiana Jones RPG that a friend of mine had. It made us very skeptical of all Media tie-in worlds that were looking to cash in on the success of a setting.

Drohem
01-21-2008, 12:03 PM
hahaha....I knew that F.A.T.A.L. had to at the top of the list.

I really don't consider that type of stuff (FATAL, RoHoWa, and Satanis) as serious RPG games. I consider them like spoof RPGs.

There are some really stupid and hateful people out there in the big wide world.

Drohem
01-21-2008, 12:09 PM
Let's see:

Cyborg Commando was pretty lame.

As was 9th Generation.

Mulsiphix
01-22-2008, 12:05 AM
Anybody ever play Fen Shui (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feng_Shui_%28role-playing_game%29)?

jade von delioch
01-22-2008, 11:58 AM
no, but i want to. I worked with this guy who played it and everything he told me about it sounds awesome. You can get a trait for your character that is called "clean suite", and no matter how much gore is in a scene you always walk away clean and smelling good. Theres one called "stunt Double" where any time you try something overly daring, you have a stunt double who does it for you.

Mulsiphix
01-22-2008, 04:33 PM
You can get a trait for your character that is called "clean suite", and no matter how much gore is in a scene you always walk away clean and smelling good. Theres one called "stunt Double" where any time you try something overly daring, you have a stunt double who does it for you.Sounds interesting. Anybody else know somebody who has played? Anymore feedback?