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GBVenkman
01-15-2008, 01:29 AM
I've returned to gaming recently from playing the D6 stuff as a kid with friends and family.

I have less experience with DnD, but tried some living greyhawk games with some people I've played Saga with.

Is it just me, or is Saga way more entertaining than 3.5 DnD Greyhawk?

(This is coming from a non dnd junkie, so perhaps my view is a bit different from many of you, I'm just curious if I'm the only one that feels this way.)

I welcome DnD 4e if it'll be anything like Saga.

As a new player to each system, Saga is much easier to grasp and is much more direct. Not to mention the fact that you have way more selection in triggers versus the *miss* *cast heal* *attack*.

Well, that, and in DoD you actually feel like a hero..

Grey Hawk is always in a tavern full of 100's of people doing the same thing you do.. And you must pair up with annoying NPC's you're not allowed to kill. (the other night, we paid a druid as a guide who ended up doing nothing but ask for money for heals. In a life and death situation, the last thing any realistic person would do is tolerate such a dusche bag..)

Anyhow, discuss is you wish.

Mulsiphix
01-15-2008, 02:25 AM
I haven't had the chance to try SAGA myself but I've seen many rave reviews of SAGA. So much so that I'm actually interested in picking it up as my first Star Wars system. I'm a big fan of the Xbox KOTOR titles and the recently released KOTOR campaign setting has really gotten me excited. Come to think of it I don't know if that item was for SAGA though...

Inquisitor Tremayne
01-15-2008, 08:58 AM
As far as I know, and trust me I stay on top of these things, there is not a KotOR campaign setting book released yet. The Force Unleashed is the next book.

And I am one of those who think Saga is great and if 4e D&D is similar it will be great for the game. There is just way too much detail in D&D that bogs down the game and I have never been in a D&D group that has found a way around this.

Anywho, Saga is NOT KotOR. KotOR was loosely based on the Revised version of the d20 game.

The other thing you will need to get out of your head is all the uber things you can do in the KotOR video game. These do not hold over in Saga. There is no using Force Lighting and still be a good guy.

Sorry, I am very much against the KotOR video game being imported over to the RPG. Don't get me wrong I really enjoy the video games, I still play them like crazy. But it is no where close to what the RPG represents.

In the RPG we get closer to the movies as far as playability and the video game is like a power gamers dream. I have strong reservations about the release of this book.

That and I am a big fan of the Tales of the Jedi comic series and the fact that they changed the moniker of TotJ to KotOR bugs me. TotJ felt like an archaic time period in Star Wars history then when KotOR was released and the timeline isn't too far from TotJ it was all shiny and new and felt more like the movies than the old TotJ comics. This bothered me.

Oops sorry for ranting off topic.

vadersson
01-15-2008, 09:35 AM
Tremayne,

Let me agree that I also liked the TotJ feel to things. Kotor should have moved down the timeline some. On the otherhand, I do like Kotor too. But I agree that TotJ has a certain wild feel to it.

Back on topic.
I played DnD 3.5 and I like it. It is more what I expect from DnD, which is why RCR for Star Wars did not work out. It was just DnD in space. Now Saga feels more like Star Wars (but I have not played yet.) Personally I hope DnD 4.0 is not too much like Saga because then it will not feel like DnD anymore. :)

Thanks,
Duncan

Mulsiphix
01-15-2008, 09:40 AM
Entire Post

:eek: Wow. I had no idea that KOTOR wasn't your standard Star Wars stuff. I love the movies but I LOVED KOTOR. Hearing about the KOTOR supplement was enough to spark my interest in Star Wars but if general Star Wars isn't the force heavy action fest that KOTOR was I don't know if I'll be very happy in that universe :(

Inquisitor Tremayne
01-15-2008, 09:47 AM
Tremayne,

Let me agree that I also liked the TotJ feel to things. Kotor should have moved down the timeline some. On the otherhand, I do like Kotor too. But I agree that TotJ has a certain wild feel to it.

Back on topic.
I played DnD 3.5 and I like it. It is more what I expect from DnD, which is why RCR for Star Wars did not work out. It was just DnD in space. Now Saga feels more like Star Wars (but I have not played yet.) Personally I hope DnD 4.0 is not too much like Saga because then it will not feel like DnD anymore. :)

Thanks,
Duncan


Agreed!!!!!!!


:eek: Wow. I had no idea that KOTOR wasn't your standard Star Wars stuff. I love the movies but I LOVED KOTOR. Hearing about the KOTOR supplement was enough to spark my interest in Star Wars but if general Star Wars isn't the force heavy action fest that KOTOR was I don't know if I'll be very happy in that universe :(

Which is part of the problem I have with it. I think too many new players are going to come to the game and expect their good Jedi to be able to Force choke and force lightning their way through all the fights and use stim packs to boost abilities and have gauntlets that add to your strength and all of that stuff. At this point it is not in the game. When the supplement comes out I imagine they will put some of that stuff in there. But as it is the RPG doesn't do a good job of representing that video game, and I don't think it should.

And, if they do add these stim packs and other ability boosting items its going to bring to light, why weren't Han, Chewie, Leia, Luke, and all the others in the movies using these things? Its going to throw things outta wack.

Of course I am sure these things will be optional but as a GM if it is in a book made for the RPG we are playing I have a hard time not allowing it.

Plus you can always argue that all of these things are up to the GM. For example I am considering running an all Jedi game set in this era. Now that the Force rules in Saga are actually somewhat balanced as opposed to how they worked in the RCR version.

I think I lost my point in all my ranting, sorry.

Mulsiphix
01-15-2008, 10:01 AM
I see your point. The movie is merely an adventure to me though. An epic story from one small part in the time line. Star Wars, as the novels depict it, is what I consider to be the true universe. However I had no idea what the novels depict. All I know is that when I compare 95% of novels to their movie counterparts, even if the movie was the basis for the novel, I usually enjoy the novels universe much more. It is fleshed out more and there is more to take a hold of. Any chance your familiar with the novels? All I know is that there were many :o

Inquisitor Tremayne
01-15-2008, 10:54 AM
Not really familiar with the novels. I do and have kept up with all of the comics though, which some have been adapted from the novels, Splinter of the Minds Eye for example.

I agree with you. It is sometimes easier to read a description and have an understanding of it than to see it merely as background information in a movie.

However, aside from the New Jedi Order series, there isn't much deviation in the way the Force, the light side and the dark side are viewed.

Then came along the KotOR video games (and the last few novels of the New Jedi Order series) and started messing with the perceived notions of the Force. And the new game, the Force Unleashed looks the same way.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for the games I love them, I love anything star wars pretty much, except for the Christmas special, but I just don't like the idea of catering to the video game playing crowd. Which seems to be the market WotC is targeting for some reason. Video games generally do not translate well to an RPG.

Anyway, back to the topic of D&D and Saga. I agree. They play completely different and I am leary that they are going to be able to keep the current feel of D&D with the new rule set. Streamlined rules works for the Sci-fantasy space drama, not so sure it will work for straight fantasy though.

GBVenkman
01-16-2008, 12:50 AM
I saw a Knights of the Old Republic book preorder thing on Amazon.com that's coming out within the year I think.

I think the book will have sources about setting and archiac equipment.


Anyhow, I agree with DnD having way too many little rules that bite you in the butt.

Like this situation at the last game:

DM: "Roll fortitude saves for traveling in the snow."
Me: "I have snow googles, resist elements casted (I'm a cleric), and snow gear on... *roll 3*
DM: "ohh, you're snow blind"
Me: "Can I attempt to heal my 'frozen eyes' with a heal check or cure light wounds?"
DM: "no, only remove blindness spell works"
Me: "crap, I'm only lvl one."
So dispite being trained in medicine and the divine, my health specialist cannot treat a minor condition/prevent a minor illness.

3 out of 5 of us were snowblind from the harsh winds blowing ice in our eyes for the next day. (The googles only gave a +2 to fort checks, go figure.)

To me, if there's 60 different skills/spells to treat 60 different minute situations that are under health conditions/illnesses, then it's much less likely that I'll ever actually use the skills I'm trained in during an adventure.


I like things to be more straight forward, like saga's way of grouping many skills into one, like Persuasion. Simple. Roll that, and role play whether you try to intimidate or charm the NPC.

But I'm really interested in how 4e will handle spells. I wonder if it will be like jedi powers where you get them all back at the end of an encounter, or you can take talents to regain more, etc.


As for the Novels.. I was reading through The Revenge of the Sith at boarders the other day, and I must say it was a lot better than the film. Much more blood and guts like a classic Samurai film, and much more of a compelling storyline.

I wouldn't read the expanded adventure stuff, but I think I might read the novel forms of the 6 films..
Ohh, and I'll be watching the new Clone Wars TV series.

Mulsiphix
01-16-2008, 01:12 AM
Yeah I just saw the clone wars TV series mentioned in an interview with George Lucas on the new Family Guy DVD that came out Jan 15th 2008. Got me extremely excited to watch it :)

vadersson
01-16-2008, 07:12 AM
Any chance your familiar with the novels? All I know is that there were many :o

I would say that I have read most of the novels. (Except NJO, can't stand that stuff, but I have read some.)

The Movies and the novels fit pretty well. Generally nothing to outragous in them.

One thing to keep in mind is that Kotor is a lot more like DnD in space than Star Wars. All the equipment with bonuses (helmets, gloves, etc.) are totally DnD type mechanic. Now the weapon modifications are cool, and can be worked in nicely, but the other stuff is really kind of silly from an RPG prospective. But any good video game needs loot...

See ya,
Duncan

Mulsiphix
01-16-2008, 09:20 AM
With all the PnP Star Wars adaptations I find it hard to believe that KOTOR wasn't realized on paper before the video game. Makes a lot of sense to me, at least from a target audience perspective. I really wish somebody would put out a PnP version of KOTOR. I would start playing it without giving it a second though :o

GBVenkman
01-16-2008, 04:33 PM
Yeah I just saw the clone wars TV series mentioned in an interview with George Lucas on the new Family Guy DVD that came out Jan 15th 2008. Got me extremely excited to watch it :)


Have you seen this Trailer for it? CGI. Looks cool.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4eIcDLzKMA&feature=related

Mulsiphix
01-16-2008, 07:21 PM
No I have not. Thanks for the link. Its looks awesome :D

Inquisitor Tremayne
01-17-2008, 12:59 PM
With all the PnP Star Wars adaptations I find it hard to believe that KOTOR wasn't realized on paper before the video game. Makes a lot of sense to me, at least from a target audience perspective. I really wish somebody would put out a PnP version of KOTOR. I would start playing it without giving it a second though :o

Well there is the sourcebook coming out later this year for KotOR, so there is that. IT utilizes the Saga edition rules.

I have high hopes that it isn't powergamed out the a** like the video game. I can see it going either way and how they handle converting The Force Unleashed game to the RPG will be quite telling.

So far it looks good...

Mulsiphix
01-17-2008, 07:10 PM
How could they release a KOTOR product and it not be powergamed up the yingyang like the video game? Was Knights Of The Old Replublic a novel or setting used somewhere else before the video game? I was under the impression that it was a custom setting developed solely by BioWare.

GBVenkman
01-18-2008, 01:27 AM
How could they release a KOTOR product and it not be powergamed up the yingyang like the video game? Was Knights Of The Old Replublic a novel or setting used somewhere else before the video game? I was under the impression that it was a custom setting developed solely by BioWare.


I don't see why it would have to follow the game mechanics of the Video game at all. The video game isn't based on the Saga rule set, so I don't see much of the powergameness translating over. The video game is naturally going to uberfied since it's mainly just for eye candy.


I think the new books will just expand on all levels of play to the extreme in a good way, just as the Star Ship book has. (Unless being able to command a star destoryer is not uber enough).

I'm sure there will be more talent trees, feats, and powers for all classes, so as long as they keep all Heroic classes equally viable, I'll be happy.

Ohh, if you notice in the DoD campaign if you DM, they give out a force power that's referenced as from the Force Unleashed Book. And I assure you, it's not over uberfied at all.

Mulsiphix
01-18-2008, 02:56 AM
Thats depressing to hear indeed :(. Glad I didn't pre-order that KOTOR supplement. KOTOR the game was almost like Super Heroes meets Star Wars with less emphasis on alignment, if not a complete blurring of alignment altogether.

vadersson
01-18-2008, 09:55 AM
That was the problem. KotoR taged on the Tales of the Jedi series of Graphic Novels. TotJ was very down to earth and showed archaic technology for Star Wars. The struggle between good and evil was also pretty clean cut. Excellent stuff to read BTW.

Thanks,
Duncan

Inquisitor Tremayne
01-18-2008, 01:25 PM
I was under the impression that it was a custom setting developed solely by BioWare.

Nothing in the Star Wars universe is solely created by someone else other than Lucas/Lucasfilm/Lucasarts. Except for individual home RPG campaigns.

Everything that is released with the Star Wars name or logo on it has to be approved by Lucas or some division of Lucasfilm.

There is no way around it.

Mulsiphix
01-18-2008, 10:04 PM
Just because they approved it, it doesn't mean that Lucas heavily edited the BioWare creation. So in this respect it is highly probable that KOTOR was unique to BioWare.

Inquisitor Tremayne
01-19-2008, 12:33 PM
Just because they approved it, it doesn't mean that Lucas heavily edited the BioWare creation. So in this respect it is highly probable that KOTOR was unique to BioWare.


My best guess is that they edit it for content. Meaning historical facts, equipment facts, character facts, etc... as they pertain to the Star Wars universe.

When KotOR was released it bacame a part of the official cannon of Star Wars. Meaning everything that was presented in the video games did actually happen at the point they say it happened in the game.

And knowing how strictly they edit the RPG content I can only assume that they do so for every piece of related Star Wars material. To give you an idea of what I mean, there are columns on the Star Wars RPG website called Jedi Counciling. They answer questions about the RPG and the minis game. Before these columns can be published on the website they have to be reviewed and approved by Lucasarts.

Yes! The simple RPG rules clairification article has to get approval.

Lucas is like the Empire, he has an iron grip on anything that has Star Wars on it.

So while the folks at Bioware may have come up with the story and characters and ships and whatnot, none of it would have ever been made had it not made it through the approval process.

Even the name Knights of the Old Republic was not new either. THe name was taken from a series of comics flying under the heading Tales of the Jedi.

GBVenkman
01-19-2008, 12:36 PM
Thats depressing to hear indeed :(. Glad I didn't pre-order that KOTOR supplement. KOTOR the game was almost like Super Heroes meets Star Wars with less emphasis on alignment, if not a complete blurring of alignment altogether.


Ohh, you want it to be beefed up then?

I think any supplement that gives more options and specialization automatically will give players and DMs more room for beefage.

I personally like my PCs to be like Super Heroes when I DM, it's a game after all. I'm sure KOTOR will help that just fine :D

As for emphasis on alignment, I think Saga has already sucked a lot of that away by making certain powers like Force Grip not darkside and allowing a player to use force lightning with a force point to remain good.

I don't think the developers can do much to make any GM's game more or less alignment focused since that's really up to how the individual GM and PCs want to play it.

My campaign is probably more like KOTOR when it comes to alignment out of choice, and I think it's good if the books don't try to tie alignment to each and every skill/feat/talent because of it.

Mulsiphix
01-19-2008, 01:53 PM
All I know is that before KOTOR I was a fan of the movies but not a fanatic. After playing KOTOR I have never looked at Star Wars in the same light. It is the pinnacle of sci-fi badass-ness and I prefer to remember it that way. If I ever get into Star Wars I can guarantee there will be plenty of changes to make the game feel more like KOTOR :cool:

GBVenkman
01-19-2008, 07:47 PM
All I know is that before KOTOR I was a fan of the movies but not a fanatic. After playing KOTOR I have never looked at Star Wars in the same light. It is the pinnacle of sci-fi badass-ness and I prefer to remember it that way. If I ever get into Star Wars I can guarantee there will be plenty of changes to make the game feel more like KOTOR :cool:

heheh, well said.

Inquisitor Tremayne
01-22-2008, 12:44 PM
All I know is that before KOTOR I was a fan of the movies but not a fanatic. After playing KOTOR I have never looked at Star Wars in the same light. It is the pinnacle of sci-fi badass-ness and I prefer to remember it that way. If I ever get into Star Wars I can guarantee there will be plenty of changes to make the game feel more like KOTOR :cool:

Thats awesome!

More Star Wars fanatics!!!!

This is exactly my feeling about the Tales of the Jedi books. So you now understand my love/hate with KotOR.

Inquisitor Tremayne
01-22-2008, 12:53 PM
It may interest you to know that there is a fan made KotOR supplement that was made for the RCR version of the SWRPG.

I'm sure if you google it you'll find it. I can't say if the link on the WotC boards would still be searchable or not.

If you love KotOR for its uberness I'm sure you are going to LOVE the Force Unleashed game when it comes out. I can't wait to play it and of course have the same concern about importing it to the RPG.

Mulsiphix
01-22-2008, 05:35 PM
Force Unleashed looks friggin badass. I've had my eye on it for a good 8 months now. I can't wait :D

Inquisitor Tremayne
01-26-2008, 04:47 PM
Indeed! I am blowing my income tax return to purchas a xbox 360 for that game, halo 3, oblivion, and assassin's creed.

There is already much speculation as to what is going to be included in the book due to the previews that have been released so far.

Such as the Talent, actually I think it is a feat called Unleashed. The details as to what this feat allows one to do has not been released yet.

Exciting!!

Mulsiphix
01-26-2008, 06:08 PM
I wish I still had my 360 to play BioShock. I'm really excited that they are making it into a movie. Very cool :)

GBVenkman
01-27-2008, 03:15 AM
They're making a force unleashed movie?

Mulsiphix
01-27-2008, 03:57 AM
I just checked wikipedia and wookipedia and neither mention a movie. Could you provide a link Inquisitor Tremayne?

Star Wars: The Force Unleashed is an upcoming multimedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multimedia) project developed and published by LucasArts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LucasArts) along with Dark Horse Comics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Horse_Comics), Lego (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lego), Hasbro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasbro), and Del Rey Books (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Del_Rey_Books). It consists of a video game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game), a tie-in novel by Sean Williams (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_Williams), action figures, a comic book (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comic_book), a reference book and a role-playing game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_game) supplement. The materials are scheduled for release in August 26, 2008. The game will be released on the seventh-generation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_video_game_consoles_%28seventh_generati on%29) consoles PlayStation 3 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_3), Xbox 360 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_360), Wii (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wii), PlayStation Portable (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_Portable), Nintendo DS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_DS), second generation N-Gage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N-Gage#Second_generation_N-Gage) and the sixth generation console PlayStation 2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_2).

Inquisitor Tremayne
01-27-2008, 02:56 PM
Oh I am sorry. I was referring to the previews that were posted on the RPG website for the minis game and the new RPG book.

Not a movie preview. Sorry. Although I am wondering if the new live action TV series will include some Force Unleashed stuff.

You do know there is a live action Star Wars TV series in the works right?

Mulsiphix
01-27-2008, 03:18 PM
You do know there is a live action Star Wars TV series in the works right?That I did not know :p. Got a link handy? Even better, perhaps there is a trailer available? I hope it isn't as hokey as some of the japanese anime live action series *shutters at the thought of Live Action Sailor Moon*

Inquisitor Tremayne
01-27-2008, 03:30 PM
I haven't kept up with it. Check either the main SW website or IMDB.

GBVenkman
01-27-2008, 06:44 PM
I know they're making a movie for Clone Wars (CG) before the series comes out.

I don't know if they'll make it straight to DvD or if it'll be on a TV special or in Theaters (I doubt it because they haven't advertised, and they plan that stuff years in advance).

But they don't even have a TV network signed onto it yet (I'm sure they'll have no problems finding one...)

Inquisitor Tremayne
01-27-2008, 07:03 PM
I was under the impression that the CG Clone Wars was going to be a series on the Cartoon Network similar to the previous Clone Wars cartoon.

I hope it is a series and not just a movie.

Mulsiphix
01-27-2008, 08:39 PM
I was under the impression that the CG Clone Wars was going to be a series on the Cartoon Network similar to the previous Clone Wars cartoon.The previous Clone Wars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars:_Clone_Wars_%28TV_Series%29) aired on Cartoon Network. The upcoming Clone Wars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars:_The_Clone_Wars_%28TV_series%29) will be a CGI Animated TV series and currently a network has not been picked. It is scheduled to debut sometime in 2008.

GBVenkman
01-27-2008, 11:04 PM
I was under the impression that the CG Clone Wars was going to be a series on the Cartoon Network similar to the previous Clone Wars cartoon.

I hope it is a series and not just a movie.


It'll be both, they already have 40 episodes finished.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars:_The_Clone_Wars_%28TV_series%29

Mulsiphix
01-27-2008, 11:09 PM
It doesn't say it will be a movie as well on there does it? I looked and couldn't find that info. Could you quote it GBVenkman?

GBVenkman
01-29-2008, 01:40 AM
I'll look around, but it's possible the link has been updated since I've read it. Could've been a rumor.

GBVenkman
01-29-2008, 01:59 AM
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars:_The_Clone_Wars_(TV_series)

Scroll way down. It's not certain, but a possibility.

I just read too that lucus wants to do the 6 episodes in the same 3-d animation:

http://www.eonline.com/news/article/index.jsp?uuid=2743736b-098f-441a-aaa5-0b0888bb3724

Mulsiphix
01-29-2008, 04:07 AM
I just read too that lucus wants to do the 6 episodes in the same 3-d animationThe good news just keeps on coming :D