View Full Version : Interesting Information

Xaels Greyshadow
12-02-2007, 08:49 AM
I found this thread this morning, thought I might share with those in the "Not knowing."


12-02-2007, 10:24 AM
I've been wondering about how much "online" is going to be required to play 4e. I can't really see them restricting anyone from playing when they just want to use the books, because that would seem universally stupid, IMHO. They'd be cutting out so many gamers, including me. I suspect it will just be extra material not required to game.

However, if any of the online material will be required to play 4e during a session, what happens to those players that loose their internet connection? Loose power? Not everyone is online, and some still play by candle-light.

Ultimately, if an online account will be required to play, then a crack for their login system will be found or player's userID/passwords would get posted to crack sites. Security would become a major issue like fighting a virus, and society would collapse as we know it.:eek: If you thought the RPGA was dangerous, this would eclipse the living worlds.

Digital Arcanist
12-02-2007, 10:47 AM
If you lose your internet connection you are still logged in for a few minutes in any MMO and if its just a burp then nothing adverse happens. If you service goes out for an extended amount of time, like hours, then there's no point trying to go back to your table because it might not be there.

WotC has already said in no uncertain terms that 4e will be a pen and paper game just like 1e, 2e, and 3.Xe. The online component is just to connect groups who have been blown to the winds and bored players with nothing to do.

As for security? You have to get a subscription to have free-play and I don't know anyone who will give up their account info to others. It is easy enough to get credit card numbers why would you just want to give it to the bad people? Users who have to pay per session have no worries as phishers would still have to pay to play as well. Now the Dragon and Dungeon content will appear on torrent sites since subscribers get each issue in a PDF monthly.

As the second post on Gleemax says, its still vaporware and may not be ready for launch by the deadline. If you have no interest in playing at the tables then I wouldn't worry about it since it will not affect your 4e games with your friends.

12-02-2007, 12:14 PM
Wow...how absolutely lame.

I was interested to see what they were going to do with the electronic formatt; now I'm turned off.

I guess my group will just keep using Skype and paint.

12-02-2007, 12:46 PM
Oh well, another thing Wizards is investing a lot of effort in to that I won't use... Not that I'm looking forward to having to buy the 4E books anyway, but I certainly wouldn't use any online gaming function of theirs (or anybody else's) that required money.

Oh well, as long as I can find and remove the chip that deactivates my books if I let the subscription lapse, I think I'll be just fine. ;)

12-02-2007, 01:15 PM
I have a hard enough time keeping up with the multitude of book purchases. You think they would show some loyalty to those that have paid their bills for many years by buying all their books. There is no incentive to even try it, other than the opportunity to pay more money to use the books that I just bought. Now it seems that they are going to make the price prohibitive to game online. The price of the constant subscription is the #1 reason that I turned my back on the other games. It just doesn't seem like it would be worth it for me.

I have already decided to wait on the whole 4e thing until it proves it's merit. I would have to be a desperate fanatic to even consider the online table at this point. I only made it through about 2 pages of the thread before I lost interest in reading more. I seem to find myself even going to their website and forums less with each passing day. In fact, as my dissatisfaction with WoTC grows, other games are beginning to look more attractive every day.

Digital Arcanist
12-02-2007, 01:38 PM
You guys do know that when you buy a 4e book you actually are purchasing a physical book right?

Some of your comments make me wonder sometimes.....

12-02-2007, 02:59 PM
You guys do know that when you buy a 4e book you actually are purchasing a physical book right?

Some of your comments make me wonder sometimes.....This is the Internet, we have to read nothing but headlines and then post our extreme discontent! (It's in our contracts!)


(I hope that wasn't partially directed at me, by the way. Though if they managed to embed a physical chip into a PDF, I think they'd at least deserve some props.)

12-02-2007, 04:32 PM
As long as the online / digital portion of the game remains optional, I'm fine with whatever they decide to do, or whatever they decide to charge, because I don't have to use it. I am interested in what they do build, because sometimes it would be nice to use for running a remote game for my old group back in Dallas. I'm assuming/hoping that with the backing of WotC's warchest, whatever they build is going to be leagues beyond what we have available with tools like KloOge or OpenRPG, but if they aren't. If it's not, I'll just drop back to using one of the myriad of tools that is already out there.

12-02-2007, 07:35 PM
You guys do know that when you buy a 4e book you actually are purchasing a physical book right?And it should make you wonder. It should make all of us wonder. None of the books have been released. Will they release the vaporware into the atmosphere? Vaporware is threatening our very existence! What is going to happen to all my books? Will my shelf digitize into a subscription based access? Will I have to pay every time I reach for a book on the top shelf? :eek:

But seriously, it does makes me wonder how much they're going to push this online 4e stuff. I know they're not stupid enough to require an online subscription just to play tabletop.

12-02-2007, 07:44 PM
I know they're not stupid enough to require an online subscription just to play tabletop.

Two words: army intelligence.;)

12-02-2007, 08:11 PM
Well, obviously you are getting a book. Once you get the book, it's yours to do with as you please. You can play table top games to your table-top game to your hearts content without any extra charges.

They will charge more for those books because they now can be used online as well. Not everyone will benefit from this enhanced material, but I bet we will pay for it nonetheless. There will be less good info in them or they will cost more because they are still putting the online work into the price.

Why would anyone who is casually interested in playing online bother? You have to buy the books, get a subscription to their online content, pay per play, and pay even more for the 'cool' features like good miniatures. It will chase away more people than it will attract. I see only somebody really desperate for a game willing to pay extra and go through the hassle.

It is like years ago when they stuck all sorts of crap into the Dungeon magazine. You were still paying good money for the magazine, but you suddenly got a lot less for your money. When I bought my subscription for even more than the year before, nobody warned me I would be screwed. Most people didn't want the Buck Rogers adventure, the Top Secret adventure, the useless Polyhedron, or any of the nonsense they were trying to force down our throat. When people complained, they said "Look at all you are getting! It is not our fault you do not take advantage of it." It wasn't until many people started canceling their subscriptions that they wised up and changed.

Digital Arcanist
12-02-2007, 10:07 PM
So far the books are listed on Amazon for the same price as their corresponding 3e printings. You even get a sizable discount for pre-ordering. They are also the same number of pages relatively.

12-03-2007, 12:26 PM
Well, as I already planned on staying away from the online realm due to the monthly subscription costs, I'm not worried about any other costs.

I've got a lot of friend all over the country that I'd like to play with, but the books and a ream of paper for the printer are my budget, not any more. If I get a bonus from work for Christman, maybe I'll buy a DM and 6 seat in Klooge, but that's because it's a 1-time only charge and I won't be making my friends pay.

12-03-2007, 05:58 PM
About Klooge and OpenRPG. Are they text based or is there a voice option? What about Ventrillo?

12-03-2007, 06:08 PM
KloOge has a text based chat system for communicating with the players, but personally, I just loaded up Skype and did a web-conference when using it. We basically just used it as a glorified battlemat. It has a lot of other features that we never used though, like the ability to put in your character statistics and resolve combat and skill rolls quickly and automatically. We just didn't take it to that level though.

12-04-2007, 02:54 AM
I really think it's way too early to talk about Gleemax, and that WotC is making the same mistake most companies do in that they are talking too early, and sharing too much of the grey space and too little of the known space.

When you tell your audience about things you are considering, and hoping to do, you have a one month lease on the information before people start to doubt you. You shouldn't talk about such things unless you can start to deliver fast.

I'd also not let the stuff you have heard about the service (even from official sources) get me all up in arms. It does not matter what they say today, it matters what they deliver on retail day.

Not only can I just buy the books and play offline, if I don't like it that much I can stick with 3.5 and the OGL which keeps it alive even if WotC abandons it (I assume they will).

I'm also not worried at all about their security systems. Online gaming is great for the companies who are involved. There is no way to universally 'crack' the online service -- they will detect it and fix the issue. If someone leaks their info, it will be shut down. If this was not true, the porn industry wouldn't make so much money on the internet as everyone would just scam.

Credit card fraud is an issue, if the user can pass what looks like valid info, the company can't really do much about it until Visa calls and says "Chargeback!" or "Invalid account!"

Even then though, it's an issue, but not a major issue. Otherwise I'd be making hamburgers. =)

Digital Arcanist
12-04-2007, 09:57 AM
Finally a fellow non-Doomsayer speaks up. Come on guys, let WotC put the product out before you tear it apart..

Digital Arcanist
12-04-2007, 06:27 PM
Okay, let's say they start paying DM's...do all DM's get the same rates or is it based on knowledge of the system, software, and experience, for starters? If you are a bad DM and maybe have a poor rating among players, do they pay you less or boot you? Not all DM's are created equal....I've had a DM turn me so far off of a game that I turned around and sold my books for it.

I'm not sure if people are understanding the information WotC is handing out. So far, if you get a Dungeon and Dragon subscription you get access to the tables as part of the service. If you just want to play casually then you pay by play.

Paying to play makes sense because WotC has to first recoup all the development capital they invested and then pay for the maintenance on their equipment and the cost to have servers for these tables. Since they don't have to pay for the publishing of the books now (ie. paper, ink, glue, shipping) they can bundle this new service. Now whether or not the new content in the magazines is worth it is a separate debate for another thread.

I'm still surprised that people are complaining about having to pay to play!! Did you think WotC was just going to eat the cost of all the hardware and internet fees? Someone complained earlier about casual players having to pay by the game, and to that I have to say its better than a monthly fee where you only play once or twice a month but still pay for the entire month.

12-04-2007, 08:11 PM
Did you think WotC was just going to eat the cost of all the hardware and internet fees?
In short, yes. Why not? It's a marketing thing. Let them figure out how to take advantage of the internet market by opening the play to everyone. Meetup.com did it. Google's doing it. Why not WotC?

Of course, this is speculation, and it allows us to get bent out of shape for no reason at all. Righteous indignation is a way of showing how large a plume we have. Anyone getting too worked up over this should crack open their 3.5 handbook and start reading a random page. If you start to molt, see a doctor.

12-04-2007, 09:10 PM
I'm perfectly content with doing play-by-post for my internet gaming, and the only MMORPG I play I've got it set up to where I don't need to pay RL currency for it. Call me cheap, I guess...

They could make a killing making the service itself free, and allowing you to pay a fee to have access to a digital version of a book for however long. Well... I could be wrong, because I sure as heck wouldn't pay for it when I can just ask someone who's looser with their money than I am (i.e. they have the book) to type up the exerpt for me, but then I wouldn't be paying for the service as-is either.

Digital Arcanist
12-04-2007, 09:23 PM
Meetup.com charges 20 bucks a month to the group organizer....being one I know. Google makes money through their ad division and stock sales. Nothing is free. If WotC can't cover their expenses then they go out of business just like TSR did.

For all of you complaining about table fees, would you like to pay more for your books? If they can't pay their bills at the current rate then they have to raise the price of their merchandise.

12-04-2007, 09:30 PM
You would think that all those Hasbro exec's could find a way to use this as an opportunity to bring more people to the game. More people should equal more profit. More profit should mean less gouging. Oh.. wait.. now I got myself laughing.

Doom is on the horizon!
(Jeebus Criptus on the WoTC boards has assured me of it!)

12-04-2007, 10:29 PM
This may surprise you, but I really could not care less about WOTC`s costs.
Then you don't care if WOTC goes under. Period. The two statements are equivalent statements.

We live in a capitalist society. Every single company in any business has to find a way to make money. If they don't, they fail. Period. If you are an avid consumer of a company's product, you have a vested interest in that company paying the bills, paying the employees, and making a slight profit at the least. Period.

If you want them to give it away free, you aren't grasping the realities of a capitalistic system. They can't give it away for free, without finding an alternative profit system. One that works.

Now, don't consider that lecturing, it's just business reality that every company faces. Another part of business reality is that if someone else can do it cheaper, they will. Our job as a consumer is to get the best price/value ratio. Sometimes the higher price is also higher value, but not always.

So let's assume Gleemax stinks to high hog, or is great, but over priced. Someone else is going to look at it and say "I can do that without getting sued, and make more money by offering better value, better price, or both."

...and we will follow them if they can deliver.

Which is why I don't care about worrying over it until retail day, or I get a free beta.

Personally, I'd make access free for people who want to develop profiles and match up with others. Then I'd charge a very nominal fee to use the service when you want. I'd let the DM's run fee, and charge the players only -- because the DM's are able to create revenue by hosting games. If possible, yes giving the DM's a small percentage of the cut would be wise. After event player ranking can make it clear who sucks as a DM, and WOTC could give them all the same percentage, but you won't go with someone who ranks 1 out of 10... ebay modeling works.

If the service works well enough, and the nominal use fee each time is small enough people won't think twice. Further, it's been proven by the 'play for free and buy neat stuff' online game model that enough people will not only pay, but pay more than even a traditional subscription to make it worthy.

But I don't work for WOTC. :)

12-04-2007, 11:51 PM
Don't know if I'm adding water to the fire or gasoline, but personally I don't care about WotC's costs, nor do I care if WotC goes under. So very many game companies have gone under, some with better products, and if the current owners of the Most Popular Role-Playing Game (tm) can't turn a profit they can jolly well sell the license to someone else.

On the other hand, I do think the gloom and doom predictions are a little premature. WotC is releasing only a few crumbs of information, and every crumb gets exaggerated into a ten-course meal that everyone declares tastes horrible.

When all these products stop being vapor -- or better yet, when we actually get them in our hot little hands -- then it's time for critiques.

12-04-2007, 11:52 PM
Well, regardless, I'm no longer posting in this thread.

12-05-2007, 07:05 AM
For all of you complaining about table fees, would you like to pay more for your books? If they can't pay their bills at the current rate then they have to raise the price of their merchandise.

How much are they asking per (virtual) table per hour (or is it per player, session, or a one time fee)?

Digital Arcanist
12-05-2007, 10:47 AM
Aha...its all up in the air right now and the fact that they may charge at all is still not set in stone.

I would imagine they are thinking of a per session fee as opposed to a per hour fee.

12-05-2007, 11:29 AM
From the way I read that statement, this per session fee only applies if you don't already have a DI subscription, which they previously tossed out figures that they said would be close to the typical MMPOG subscription. As part of that subscription, you'll be getting extended content from the books, the Dragon and Dungeon magazines, and these digital tools bundled into one package. Whether it will be worth the price, remains to be seen. I certainly won't drop $15/mo to do something I can already do with KloOge or other products out there, unless they build something significantly better.

Digital Arcanist
12-05-2007, 11:35 AM
That is correct Farcaster. So far both magazines are focusing on 4e stuff with is useless to us right now, but when 4e goes live then I hope things will change for us. They claim to offer more content than Paizo offered because it will be online and subscribers will get extra e-mails and whatnot.

All-in-all WotC still doesn't know what is going to happen this the online magazines and tables are new territory for them. All we can hope for is that they will take our suggestions seriously as well as bring in some out-of-house talent to evaluate this online component prior to v2.0 of it.