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Inquisitor Tremayne
11-24-2007, 02:00 PM
The world of Delun.

*Warning* I have borrowed a lot from Forgotten Realms and Ebberon.

In the beginning there was Aloth, the one true creator God. He created the cosmos, the planet of Delun, all celestials, demons, dragons, giants, and all the other ancient creatures. He also gave divine and arcane magic to his creations.

These beings roamed freely across the surface of Delun and warred constantly for eons. In their warring abberations were created and most used as warriors against other creatures. Aloth finally grew tired of all the warring and thus banished all creatures now considered "outsiders" to their respective planes. However they still held influence over Delun and some were able to channel their power through their followers. At this point the common races, humans, elves, dwarves, halflings, and gnomes, appear in their "pre-historic" forms. The beings wielding the most power at this time are dragons and giants. These beings still waged war on each other while abberations began to wield great magic (Illithids).

Eventually an elven wizard grew so strong in magic that he threatened the very fabric of creation. In an event that almost destroyed the cosmos Aloth stepped in and saved his creations from oblivion. He stripped his world of the magic he gave them and put severe restrictions on the channeling of divine magic. The common races reverted back to their primitive state. The once great kingdoms of giants were destroyed and they became scattered throughout the world. Dragons vanished all together and haven't been seen in thousands of years. The land was divided into the continents as they are known today. And the common races began to evolve into their current states.

There are 4 major continents. The first is populated by humans, dwarves, a few elves, gnomes and halflings, and was united by a human king. The second is an entire forest and ruled by the Wood Elves. The third is an evil land where all sorts of evil creatures run wild. The fourth is a wild land where the wild versions of the common races roam. As technologies evolved and the races grew they began to war with each other. The evil beings began to invade the elven kingdom and the human land. Some wood elves fled to the human lands to help them in their struggles. However the humans did not return the favor and thus a rift was caused between humans and wood elves. The wood elves that stayed with the humans and adopted their ways became known as the grey elves. War wracked the human land and the land was eventually divided into 6 or 8 major kingdoms. The northern moutains and hills of Darmier, the cold plains of Melbran, the Wood Elf forest kingdom of (something I can't think of), the human kingdom of Elshar, the evil lands of Eldros, the gnome kingdom of free city-states of Illiforn. And I can't think of the other 2. These are all on the one continent of the "human lands".

But wars with powerful wizards raged for the past 1500 years and have shaped the world into what it is today. After the last Mage War (number 7 I think) the kingdoms united to enact the laws outlawing magic and its use and thus the Mage Hunters were created. So thorough were the Mage Hunters that almost all knowledge of magic has vanished from the world. The Wood Elves on their own continent still use magic to some extent. And evil doers everywhere seek out magic and magic items.

There are only a few surviving true wizards left. They will only adventure or leave the confines of their hiding spot in extreme circumstances. And taking apprentices is a huge no-no for that apprentice could be a spy for the Mage Hunters. The current most powerful wizard is roughly 15th level.

Sorcerers have formed together in the larger cities and have an underground network of survival much like a thieves guild only even more secret. A major campaign of the Mage Hunters is to infiltrate these enclaves and destroy them from within. The current most powerful sorcerer is about 12th level. As much as wizards are feared and hated sorcerers are even more so due to the unique way they wield magic.

Clerics are afforded some luxury due in large part to their healing abilities. They must still carry a letter of permission from their church to cast spells outside the walls of their church. The common folk still mistrust them.

Paladins are adored and feared by everyone. They are akin to the Mage Hunters but for divine magic. They also police their own church to make sure their bishops do not become corrupted.

Druids are never found within the city limits. They take no measure to hide their divine power for it comes from nature and the persecution that some of their kind have met in the "civilized" lands has taught them to hate all urban centers and to keep away from them.

No one really knows of the divine power that flows through Rangers. Being social outcasts in general they have taken it upon themselves to protect both nature and man from each other. Each individual ranger tends to put their own outlook on that creed. Some escort travelers on the roads while others have been reported to attack travelers in the name of nature. All the while they have managed to hide the fact that they can wield magic.

"Never trust a gnome!" is the common saying. given their innate ability for magic most people do not trust gnomes. However those that reside in Illiforn have a different view. While they still are untrusted they are tolerated in that land because they are so prevalent. Rumor has it that an extremist branch of the Mage Hunters seeks to kill all gnomes.


The land has only been under this ban on magic users for about 300 years. Since generations have come and gone the memories of the Mage Wars still have heavily influence.

The grey elves have been given their own forest kingdom in Elshar.

The Wood elves on their own continent still war on the borders of their land with evil creatures from the evil land.



I think thats about it. I created two new Prestige Classes, the Mage Hunter and the Hidden Mage. Characters can not start as 1st level wizards.

I was also thinking about setting this during a medieval bronze age but I think I am going to change that.

And I am only allowing core books and maybe the complete books.

So help me flesh it out more. Any ideas?

Digital Arcanist
11-24-2007, 02:17 PM
The Mage Hunter is already a class but I can't find the book on my shelf. I'll have to look harder. There might be some useful information to add to your class or it may cover some pitfalls you haven't thought of yet.

By evil creatures, you are referring to sentient monsters like giantkin and goblinkin right? They have a loose system of government, or enough intelligence to band together to attack the other continents?

Are you going for a pantheon of deities or does all clerical/paladin magic come from Aloth?

So far I think its intriguing. Do the gnomes possess a technological superiority or are they just magical? How magical are your elves and do sorcerers still boast dragon blood?

rabkala
11-24-2007, 02:55 PM
There is the occult slayer on page 66-68 of the Complete Warrior. I can't think of a mage hunter off the top of my head.

Is there any particular area you want help with or do you just want broad general ideas? Or it could turn into a forum to pick it apart with criticisms...

Inquisitor Tremayne
11-24-2007, 03:59 PM
The Mage Hunter is already a class but I can't find the book on my shelf. I'll have to look harder. There might be some useful information to add to your class or it may cover some pitfalls you haven't thought of yet.

Mage Hunter is from the Magic of Faerun. The PrC presented there is a spell caster. Seeing how my Mage Hunters shun magic I altered that PrC to fit my story. Basically giving them bonuses to saves vs. magic and what not.

Vice Versa with the Hidden Mage PrC. They get bonuses to stealth, bonus feats to hide their spell casting ability, Eschew Materials and what-not.



By evil creatures, you are referring to sentient monsters like giantkin and goblinkin right? They have a loose system of government, or enough intelligence to band together to attack the other continents?

Yes. The ones on the main continent are more nomadic. The ones on their own continent have formed city states and what-not. They are also untrusting of magic but the power it brings can make one an overlord or get you killed out right.


Are you going for a pantheon of deities or does all clerical/paladin magic come from Aloth?

Yeah, I basically renamed all the Greyhawk deities and added a few I liked from Forgotten Realms since they have soooooo many.


So far I think its intriguing. Do the gnomes possess a technological superiority or are they just magical? How magical are your elves and do sorcerers still boast dragon blood?

I haven't really thought about it but whatever technology the gnomes posses they horde it for themselves seeing how most people don't trust them.

Magic is uncommon among the elves but more common than it is among the other races. Only the wood elves on their own continent tolerate it.

There is rumor that sorcerers get their power from dragons but no one has seen a dragon in thousands of years. Usually no one talks about it because the sorcerers want to stay hidden and the common folk don't want to be falsely accused of being one.


There is the occult slayer on page 66-68 of the Complete Warrior. I can't think of a mage hunter off the top of my head.

Is there any particular area you want help with or do you just want broad general ideas? Or it could turn into a forum to pick it apart with criticisms...

Just broad general ideas that can develop into specific ideas and please do pick it apart but offer ways to fix it or make it better to.

Thanks

Digital Arcanist
11-24-2007, 05:23 PM
No the class I'm thinking of hunt mages and hate magic as well. I believe they originate in the Outlands and I think they work for the Lady of Pain. Like I said, I'll have to look it up.

Grimwell
11-24-2007, 07:53 PM
This is pretty cool. I don't see any gaping plot holes for your to explain away. The only question I can even think of is "What about Bards?" which you probably have an answer for.

Are there any specific areas you are looking for help with?

Inquisitor Tremayne
11-26-2007, 10:30 AM
This is pretty cool. I don't see any gaping plot holes for your to explain away. The only question I can even think of is "What about Bards?" which you probably have an answer for.

Are there any specific areas you are looking for help with?

Oh yeah Bards!

They are simply seen as nomadic jesters and what-not. Most individuals aren't aware of their spellcasting ability and other bards usually practice under a mentor. They have yet to estabilsh schools and given the zealousness of the Mage Hunters they probably won't ever.

I don't know. If you have any other cool ideas that might fit in I would love to hear them.

The available races are, Human, Wild Human, Wood Elf, Grey Elf, Half-Elf, Half-Orc, Wild Halfling, Halfling (I might be using tallfellows and one of the other ones from FR), Wood Gnomes (I think), Wild Dwarves...

I don't have my notes with me but I think there are a couple more.

The Drow are actually the oldest elves on the planet. They were subjugated long ago by the dragons and giants and used in their wars. They eventually fought for their freedom and fled underground.


I am really concerned about the impact of magic. There aren't any epic level NPCs so at a certain point the PCs are going to be the most powerful beings on the planet. Which will have a significant impact on the world, but then again all powerful beings in this setting have had such an impact.

One campaign idea I have is that there is an evil powerful creature that is scouring the land for magic items/artifacts and uniting other evil creatures under his banner. Kind of like Sauron. I like epic good vs. evil games in D&D.

Grimwell
11-26-2007, 12:15 PM
To address your concerns about the impact of magic, look to the Birthright setting from TSR in the 1990's. It was not nearly as magic hostile as your world, but the high level NPC's weren't as high level as you find in other worlds (unless they were bad guys).

It's ok for your PC's to be the most powerful beings on the planet, with hordes of people asking them to solve every problem... ;)

Malruhn
11-26-2007, 10:42 PM
Something to consider is something I did with Bards.

Bards are non-magical - and the only thing people worry about are possible thefts of loot or maidens' honor when they come to town. They are, however, major messengers and are the broadcast news anchors of their day. When the bard comes to town, EVERYONE comes to listen!! If you've read the series, think of Thom in the Eye of the World series by Robert Jordan.

Of course, bards DO have magic, they just keep it a VERY tight secret.
They are a very close-knit group that is tighter than any thieves' guild.

(just something to think about)

DrAwkward
11-27-2007, 12:48 PM
I recall there being a variant for turning base classes into Prestige classes. Are you thinking of doing that for Wizard and Sorceror?

Are you changing the drop rate for magic items? Is wielding a magic item taboo?

Are you using Psionics?


I am really concerned about the impact of magic. There aren't any epic level NPCs so at a certain point the PCs are going to be the most powerful beings on the planet.

It seems like you have it set up so that very powerful creatures that attract too much attention either get destroyed to keep the balance in check, or shunted off to another plane. The PCs might get the hint and take thier adventuring elsewhere. On that note, are there more powerful casters that have bailed to another plane to avoid persecution? Do the Mage Hunters try to police other planes?

How do the gods of Magic (like Boccob) feel about all this? Are there any wizards hiding within his church? Does he provide sanctuary? Is it even legal to worship him?

Inquisitor Tremayne
11-27-2007, 03:10 PM
I recall there being a variant for turning base classes into Prestige classes. Are you thinking of doing that for Wizard and Sorceror?

No I'm not making them PrCs. Just no one can start as a 1st level Wizard and they have to have a mentor to even take their first level.


Are you changing the drop rate for magic items? Is wielding a magic item taboo?

Yes. Magic items will be very rare for common folk, rare for low-level NPCs, and uncommon for the PCs. Wielding a magic item that has an extreme and noticeable power is a serious taboo. However, + weapons still find use and people who wield weapons with special abilities like flaming and thundering are watched closely.

So its rare that a normal person is goign to ever see a magic item but for adveturers it would be considered uncommon. THey don't see a lot of them but a level 4 adventure has seen at least a couple items.



Are you using Psionics?

Heck no!


It seems like you have it set up so that very powerful creatures that attract too much attention either get destroyed to keep the balance in check, or shunted off to another plane. The PCs might get the hint and take thier adventuring elsewhere. On that note, are there more powerful casters that have bailed to another plane to avoid persecution? Do the Mage Hunters try to police other planes?

No. The other planes are still a large mystery and very few have even ever been off of their home plane.

So much magic has been lost or destroyed that travel among the planes is rare and there are so many spells that are lost forever.

I'm going to have to go through and edit the spell list. Any help on what spells to take away would be good. It wouldn't have to be taken away permanently, they might find it later on.



How do the gods of Magic (like Boccob) feel about all this? Are there any wizards hiding within his church? Does he provide sanctuary? Is it even legal to worship him?

Yes the worship of the God of Magic is outlawed. But he can't do much about it because the deities are already severely limited in the influence they have over their followers. I am going to have to edit that list too.

DrAwkward
11-27-2007, 04:23 PM
So its rare that a normal person is goign to ever see a magic item but for adveturers it would be considered uncommon. THey don't see a lot of them but a level 4 adventure has seen at least a couple items.

One thing to watch for, then -- as they progress, the party might start to fall behind the curve. They won't have access to spells and items that are "assumed" for certain level characters, and the corresponding CR monsters will eat thier hats.

Hand built NPCs that face the same restrictions should be balanced. Monsters out of the Manuals may be inherently rougher than expected -- especially things with DR/magic, or things that lay out elemental damage.

The players may end up with a lot of money and nothing to spend it on. They'll have magic items that they can't legally sell but don't (or can't) use. A lot of what makes a character a certain level of power is the proper application of funds.

Finally, any wizards or sorceror PCs are going to be multiclassed. Multiclassed casters are kinda gimpy. Frankly, I don't see someone wanting to even go that path because they'd end up weaker for it. If that's what you had in mind, cool.


I'm going to have to go through and edit the spell list. Any help on what spells to take away would be good. It wouldn't have to be taken away permanently, they might find it later on.First thing I'd do is get rid of all the dungeon breaking spells. Knock, Detect Secret Doors, Teleport, etc.
Second, I'd take a hard pass through the Necromancy list since thats what usually gives wizards a bad name.
Finally, I might add some spells to the Bard's list to account for some of the arcane spells that are good to have in a party but are otherwise low key and mostly harmless.

Is the God of Magic an evil deity? Is it a legitimate ban? Is there a corrupting aspect of arcane magic?

DrAwkward
11-27-2007, 04:34 PM
Have you considered pulling from the Wheel of Time d20 book? The magic in that setting is fairly limited.

Maelstrom
12-01-2007, 06:43 AM
Very interesting premise. So what is the structure of the Mage Hunters? Are they similar to some kind of inquisition, where people accuse someone of sorcery and they send out their hit men? Do they have prisons, or do they just hang or burn any accused at the stake? Who makes the decisions as to who to hunt? Or is it generally policed by the people themselves, who call in the Mage Hunters as special forces? All that can impact the society and how people interact.

As far as spell lists, it'd probably be a lot easier to just remove certain schools of magic to start, such as Evocation, Necromancy, and Conjuration, which are generally flashy and would give the wizard away. It also probably would be easier to choose on a case by case basis rather than trying to go through all the spells available and allowing/disallowing them. Have the players give good justification for specific exceptions if they want to tempt fate.

Inquisitor Tremayne
12-04-2007, 05:04 PM
Very interesting premise. So what is the structure of the Mage Hunters? Are they similar to some kind of inquisition, where people accuse someone of sorcery and they send out their hit men? Do they have prisons, or do they just hang or burn any accused at the stake? Who makes the decisions as to who to hunt? Or is it generally policed by the people themselves, who call in the Mage Hunters as special forces? All that can impact the society and how people interact.

I'm kind of brainstorming out loud so bear with me...

Officially, they are a branch of whatever ruling body exists in a particular kingdom and are used at the whim of their ruler. They investigate any claims of someone being a magic user and persecute the individual if they are. By persecute I mean kill. To be a magic user outside of divine magic or special privilege equals death at the hands of the Mage Hunters.

Unofficially, they are a zealous and stealthy entity that scours the entire land looking for magic users and killing them before they can become a threat. Their main goal is the elimination of ALL magic users in the world. They know that clerics and paladins are somewhat protected by their church so they only keep a close watchful eye on them for any slip up that will allow them to enact their authority. The word of a Mage Hunter is never questioned in the killing of a person accused to be a magic user. Because of this the Mage Hunters are extremely careful with their actions. They only strike when they are 100% certain that their target is a magic user.


So I want them to be public yet have a secret branch that kills a lot more magic users than the public branch. SOmething like if the population knew how many magic users were out there and how many the Mage Hunters have killed the Mage Hunters might get a bad rap.

Something like that. I need some reason to have them be secret other than they can sneak up on magic users in hiding.




As far as spell lists, it'd probably be a lot easier to just remove certain schools of magic to start, such as Evocation, Necromancy, and Conjuration, which are generally flashy and would give the wizard away. It also probably would be easier to choose on a case by case basis rather than trying to go through all the spells available and allowing/disallowing them. Have the players give good justification for specific exceptions if they want to tempt fate.

That sounds like a good start.

DrAwkward
12-04-2007, 08:38 PM
Have you considered the Ranger and Pally variants that don't get spells? They still get "supernatural abilities" as class effects, and wouldn't be entirely trusted, but they wouldn't cast spells.

Are you allowing Rangers to take "Arcane Caster" as a favored enemy? I could see that being popular amongst Mage Hunters.

How would you feel about using Eberron's Artificer base class as a legal outlet? They don't get spells, but rather focus on making magic items. Is crafting magic items against the law?

rabkala
12-04-2007, 08:57 PM
If the planes are off limits and rather unknown, conjuration/summoning would be a definite bad thing. Even if they eventually get minor summoning magic, I would suggest the variant of always calling the same creature.

The amount of power that the Magehunters wield is enough reason for them to have a secret side. They could be used in many unscrupulous ways to off all sorts of people who were discontents, dissenters, or just 'trouble'. "Really, they were all mages!" It would be best to keep that type of activity rather secret.
Perhaps the magehunters have their own plans on world domination under one banner?

Maelstrom
12-05-2007, 05:33 AM
The amount of power that the Magehunters wield is enough reason for them to have a secret side. They could be used in many unscrupulous ways to off all sorts of people who were discontents, dissenters, or just 'trouble'. "Really, they were all mages!" It would be best to keep that type of activity rather secret.
Perhaps the magehunters have their own plans on world domination under one banner?

Yeah, I like that. So not only do the players have to avoid these guys, they may even have to unravel the evil plots, making them targets of one of the most powerful organizations in the land. This is sounding like a pretty cool campaign premise.

Inquisitor Tremayne
12-05-2007, 10:41 AM
Have you considered the Ranger and Pally variants that don't get spells? They still get "supernatural abilities" as class effects, and wouldn't be entirely trusted, but they wouldn't cast spells.

Oh Yeah! I forgot about those variants! Thanks! That's awesome! Consider them changed!


Are you allowing Rangers to take "Arcane Caster" as a favored enemy? I could see that being popular amongst Mage Hunters.

I hadn't thought of it until you just mentioned it! Another great idea thanks!


How would you feel about using Eberron's Artificer base class as a legal outlet? They don't get spells, but rather focus on making magic items. Is crafting magic items against the law?

I want to keep the technology level at the medieval level. Adding Artificers I am afraid would significantly offset the tech level. Maybe for Gnomes. Actually I kind of like that. Making Artificer only available to Gnomes. Since they have inherent magical abilities and are mistrusted because of it. That sounds cool too.

You are full of grand ideas! Thanks!



If the planes are off limits and rather unknown, conjuration/summoning would be a definite bad thing. Even if they eventually get minor summoning magic, I would suggest the variant of always calling the same creature.

Noted! Consider it done.

See. This is why I posted here. This is the kind of help I need. You guys are thinking of everything!

Thanks!



The amount of power that the Magehunters wield is enough reason for them to have a secret side. They could be used in many unscrupulous ways to off all sorts of people who were discontents, dissenters, or just 'trouble'. "Really, they were all mages!" It would be best to keep that type of activity rather secret.
Perhaps the magehunters have their own plans on world domination under one banner?

Perhaps. Maybe a faction within the Mage Hunters. I kind of see them as zealous as a Paladin can be. They feel the work they do is good and they are justified in their actions no matter the cost. So they have a noble arrogance about the work they do and are highly aware of their responsibility in the world.

But I can see a faction within the "order" saying that they are the ones who should be ruling since they protect everyone from magic anyway. Maybe they even use magic slightly to their advantage!?


Yeah, I like that. So not only do the players have to avoid these guys, they may even have to unravel the evil plots, making them targets of one of the most powerful organizations in the land. This is sounding like a pretty cool campaign premise.

Yeah I think it will make a great campaign.

Keep the ideas coming and thanks for all the help!

Inquisitor Tremayne
12-05-2007, 10:44 AM
I was also thinking of having one of the goals of the Mage Hunters be to also find and destroy magic items or to collect them and store them away where no one can use them.

What do you think about that?

Inquisitor Tremayne
12-05-2007, 11:01 AM
So summoning and conjuring and severely limited.

The schools Evocation and Necromancy are off limits.

Spell research. (brainstorming)

Since wizards don't have anywhere to learn their spells from since there aren't any Schools of Magical Learning around the spells they gain for free at each level don't make any sense, since they have to study to learn these spells.

How would you handle this?

I think I would just have to provide them with scrolls at the right time that would allow them to memorize those spells.


What about Clerics? I think I am going to make certain schools available and off limits based on the deity that the cleric worships. Yet still keep the above mentioned schools restricted or off limits. That way clerics of the god of death have some necromancy spells.

Same with druids, except their won't be as much variation because there are fewer nature deities.

DrAwkward
12-05-2007, 04:27 PM
Spell research. (brainstorming)

Since wizards don't have anywhere to learn their spells from since there aren't any Schools of Magical Learning around the spells they gain for free at each level don't make any sense, since they have to study to learn these spells.

How would you handle this?

Well, the spells they get for free are supposed to be "independant study" which I always assumed to be "trial and error". I'd still let them take those.

The reason is, you were planning on reducing the magic loot they get - and I imagine that means you are going to be stingy with the scrolls. I don't know what you have planned, but they also might not have much access to looted spellbooks. I'm assuming that the two free spells per level is pretty much the only reliable source for them.

Besides, scribing spells into a spellbook (besides the free ones) is expensive, and requires special inks and such -- buying this stuff is going to be risky. I think you'd be putting an unfair monetary burden on them if you take away the free spells.



I think I would just have to provide them with scrolls at the right time that would allow them to memorize those spells.
This does help you control what spells they have access to, but then they become much more restricted than a sorceror would be. I'm having a hard time imagining anyone playing a wizard over sorceror in this setting.

Inquisitor Tremayne
12-05-2007, 04:40 PM
Well, the spells they get for free are supposed to be "independant study" which I always assumed to be "trial and error". I'd still let them take those.

The reason is, you were planning on reducing the magic loot they get - and I imagine that means you are going to be stingy with the scrolls. I don't know what you have planned, but they also might not have much access to looted spellbooks. I'm assuming that the two free spells per level is pretty much the only reliable source for them.

Besides, scribing spells into a spellbook (besides the free ones) is expensive, and requires special inks and such -- buying this stuff is going to be risky. I think you'd be putting an unfair monetary burden on them if you take away the free spells.



This does help you control what spells they have access to, but then they become much more restricted than a sorceror would be. I'm having a hard time imagining anyone playing a wizard over sorceror in this setting.


You're right.

So then just say that certain schools are completely off limits?

Maelstrom
12-06-2007, 05:44 AM
That's probably the best, assuming you'll allow exceptions on a case by case basis.

In general, your divine and especially arcane spellcaster players are going to have enough restrictions as it is, seeing that the entire realm wants to make their ilk dead, and they have a faction that are good at doing so.

In fact, with all these restrictions in place, you might want to consider giving the wizards and sorcerors some bonus to offset the restrictions they have on spell choice and performing their art. The idea is, that any remaining wizards that have survived the purging must have been extra smart, so according to natural selection they have had to adapt to survive.

Maybe allow them to get bonus spell enhancement feats (Quicken spell, Empower spell, etc) at certain levels? Or if they do get these feats, allow them to memorize improved versions with half the levelsl tacked on (rounded down)? I.e. A Silent spell will be the original spell level instead of +1, a Silent Stilled spell will be original +1 instead of +2, a Quickened spell will be +2 instead of +4, etc.

Maelstrom
12-06-2007, 06:01 AM
Heh, just thought of a hypothetical situation in this world.

Players are sneaking through the alleys of one of the large cities on some covert mission, when they are accosted by a group of Mage Hunters who know of a sorceror guild in the area. Seeing this as a sticky situation, one of the players uses ventriloquism to make it sound like the Mage Hunter leader mutters something arcane, and another player silently casts a flashy spell to make it look like the Mage Hunter did it.

That oughta provide an interesting reaction from the rest of the Mage Hunters, who suddenly turn on their leader...

Malruhn
12-06-2007, 09:30 AM
However, consider the fact that the Mage Hunters would be on their toes (extra vigil), and be expecting a sorcerous encounter. As DM, I'd be giving the MH's a bonus on their spot checks and/or spellcraft (if they have it) checks.

DrAwkward
12-06-2007, 11:02 AM
So then just say that certain schools are completely off limits?

Handling the Wizard class is easy; all PC wizards must Specialize in a school, and take Evocation and Necromancy as forbidden schools.

The lore of Necomancy and Evocation is lost -- there is nobody available to teach them, and all books on the subjects have been confiscated or destroyed. These two schools are what got casters in such trouble, and they were the first schools the Mage Hunters targeted. Your training is going to be so limited, you just can't get a general education on the subject.

At this point, the spells aren't even on the spell lists of your wizards. Even if they find a scroll of Fireball, it'd be useless as anything other than a collector's piece.

One question is if Use Magic Device can still trigger it. I can think of good reasons either way, but am leaning towards "yes, but the DC is much higher, and mishaps are truly horrible."

Have you considered just not allowing PC sorcerors?

Perhaps sorcerors were a bloodline - a noble house descended from something special (maybe even sinister) and was hunted to extinction (or so we think). It might have even been this family line that caused all the grief. I could see some pretty cool story lines centered on finding a surviving member -- either as a villain, a rebel hero, a magical messiah, or the prophesied doom of the world.

Inquisitor Tremayne
12-06-2007, 01:21 PM
That's probably the best, assuming you'll allow exceptions on a case by case basis.

Of course.


In general, your divine and especially arcane spellcaster players are going to have enough restrictions as it is, seeing that the entire realm wants to make their ilk dead, and they have a faction that are good at doing so.

In fact, with all these restrictions in place, you might want to consider giving the wizards and sorcerors some bonus to offset the restrictions they have on spell choice and performing their art. The idea is, that any remaining wizards that have survived the purging must have been extra smart, so according to natural selection they have had to adapt to survive.

Maybe allow them to get bonus spell enhancement feats (Quicken spell, Empower spell, etc) at certain levels? Or if they do get these feats, allow them to memorize improved versions with half the levelsl tacked on (rounded down)? I.e. A Silent spell will be the original spell level instead of +1, a Silent Stilled spell will be original +1 instead of +2, a Quickened spell will be +2 instead of +4, etc.

Wizards and Sorcerers gain Hide, Move Silently, and Spot to thier list of class skills. Since they are in hiding it has become part of their nature to be alert and stealthy at all times.

I am also going to give Sorcerers the Eschew Materials feat at first level. Since their spellcasting is innate they shouldn't need spell components.

As for any other additional benefits, I'm not so sure.


Heh, just thought of a hypothetical situation in this world.

Players are sneaking through the alleys of one of the large cities on some covert mission, when they are accosted by a group of Mage Hunters who know of a sorceror guild in the area. Seeing this as a sticky situation, one of the players uses ventriloquism to make it sound like the Mage Hunter leader mutters something arcane, and another player silently casts a flashy spell to make it look like the Mage Hunter did it.

That oughta provide an interesting reaction from the rest of the Mage Hunters, who suddenly turn on their leader...


However, consider the fact that the Mage Hunters would be on their toes (extra vigil), and be expecting a sorcerous encounter. As DM, I'd be giving the MH's a bonus on their spot checks and/or spellcraft (if they have it) checks.

True on both counts and would make for some great roleplaying on the PCs part to think so quickly on their toes!


Handling the Wizard class is easy; all PC wizards must Specialize in a school, and take Evocation and Necromancy as forbidden schools.

The lore of Necomancy and Evocation is lost -- there is nobody available to teach them, and all books on the subjects have been confiscated or destroyed. These two schools are what got casters in such trouble, and they were the first schools the Mage Hunters targeted. Your training is going to be so limited, you just can't get a general education on the subject.

At this point, the spells aren't even on the spell lists of your wizards. Even if they find a scroll of Fireball, it'd be useless as anything other than a collector's piece.

One question is if Use Magic Device can still trigger it. I can think of good reasons either way, but am leaning towards "yes, but the DC is much higher, and mishaps are truly horrible."

Have you considered just not allowing PC sorcerors?

Perhaps sorcerors were a bloodline - a noble house descended from something special (maybe even sinister) and was hunted to extinction (or so we think). It might have even been this family line that caused all the grief. I could see some pretty cool story lines centered on finding a surviving member -- either as a villain, a rebel hero, a magical messiah, or the prophesied doom of the world.

I'm not sure how I feel about forcing wizards to specialize or disallowing sorcerers.

For one thing a PC is going to need to find another wizard to get them started on the path to wizardry. Meaning, to take their first level. From there the wizard is going to be doing a lot of learning on their own. If anything I think specialization should be restricted. There just isn't enough info out there for a wizard to specialize in. They would be hurting themsleves.

This way when they come across a scroll of fireball and realize its potential, the wizard will be cautious about using it and drawing undue attention to themselves.

And I like the idea of sorcerers background remaining a mystery. I'm thinking about even saying they really are descended from dragons. Seeing how the dragons vanished hundreds of thousands of years ago, maybe sorcerers are all thats left of this ancient race... so much so that even sorcerers don't really know their ancestry. They may claim it but no one is 100% sure.

DrAwkward
12-06-2007, 01:41 PM
I'm not sure how I feel about forcing wizards to specialize or disallowing sorcerers.

Ah, I was under the impression when you said forbidden you meant "cannot ever cast these spells" which would translate well as the specialist restriction.

My take on Specialization, is that it gives an impression that learning from wizard A is different from learning from wizard B. It makes the different hidden enclaves stand out from each other, to the point you can have orginazations (or cults) of wizards that act along the theme of the school they've chosen. I also think you'd get more specialists in this environment you've presented, since every Wizard's eduaction is going to be spotty. They might have access to learn all they need about conjuration, but the rest is a bit of a mystery.

I've always thought specialization was a poor choice for a wizard, and only the environment you've provided makes it a viable choice. If you mean't forbidden as "can't learn it for free" and then reserve the right to give them scrolls as "very cool loot" then specialization would lose its advantage, true.

The issue then becomes, if a wizard can find a scroll of fireball, can he learn the spell?
This would put sorcerors at a great disadvantage, unless they also have a means to learn these spells themselves.

Inquisitor Tremayne
12-06-2007, 02:08 PM
There aren't any hidden enclaves of wizards only sorcerers. Plus there are only about a handful of "real" wizards left in the world. And they stay hidden at all times. Wizards don't band together. The wizards that are alive have taken it upon themselves to preserve what little knowledge of wizardry remains in the world and hold on to it for safe keeping.

Sorcerers on the other hand operate much like a thieves guild. They are out looking for other sorcerers to join their ranks and to help and protect each other.

And I thought sorcerers could learn spells from scrolls also? Is that not the case?

DrAwkward
12-06-2007, 04:03 PM
And I thought sorcerers could learn spells from scrolls also? Is that not the case?

Nope - sorcerors get thier spells known, period. They can only expand that list by burning feats. They can use scrolls, however.

Nothing keeps you from declaring "Sorcerors shall not take any of the forbidden spells until you find a scroll for it" One of my typical house rules is "you can't take an exotic spell as a wizard or sorceror until you've at least seen it in action, and successfully identified it via spellcraft. Using a scroll counts." Exotic in my world is anything in a non-core book. For you it could include all forbidden spells. The theory is, you can't learn a spell if you don't know anything about it.

Have a look at the Beguiler base class from the PHB2. It would fit in your world very well, in my opinion. Their spellcasting side is made of only the subtle stuff, and they can play themselves off as rogues to keep from getting murderized.

Another of my house rules you may want to consider is that I give a package deal for using still spell and silent spell together. While I think it's worth two feats, I don't think that adding both to a spell is worth two spell levels.

I hadn't realized how very low the Wizard population was. So yeah, nevermind all the wizard stuff I've been saying. Can you start as a sorceror?

Inquisitor Tremayne
12-06-2007, 04:27 PM
Hmm. Makes sense.

Yes players can start as sorcerers.

Maelstrom
12-06-2007, 05:37 PM
Wizards and Sorcerers gain Hide, Move Silently, and Spot to thier list of class skills. Since they are in hiding it has become part of their nature to be alert and stealthy at all times.

...

As for any other additional benefits, I'm not so sure.


With the guilds and extra skills, I can see sorcerors being viable. They won't need to find too many spells since their spell choice is limited to a few anyways. Add to that the eschew materials and they're doing pretty good.

What's to encourage people to become a wizard though? Masochism? :)

They have to find a special trainer, have difficulty using the flashiest of magic, and are constantly on the run. Personally, I don't think the skill choice alone would make me consider being a wizard in this world.

Inquisitor Tremayne
12-06-2007, 06:02 PM
Oh yeah. Adventurers are a new breed of character in this world. Seeing how there aren't any Epic level characters and the highest level character anywhere is probably going to be 15th, ideally the PCs are going to be off "adventuring" meaning they are most of the time going to be away from the cities and the prying eyes of the Mage Hunters.

Think of Jedi when the Empire came to power. They were all but wiped out and the few that remained stayed hidden until the time was right.

Well in this game the time is right. It is going to take adventurers to change this world to one where someone shouldn't be afraid of who they are and their abilities.

So, I will actually encourage folks to play a wizard and keep its traditions alive.

DrAwkward
12-06-2007, 06:39 PM
Would the following characters fit in the world you had in mind?

Grudge McKinney
LN or LE Human Ranger1
Favored Enemy: Arcane Casters (if allowed)
Plans: take the feat "Mage Slayer" (complete arcane) and follow that tree of feats.

Grudge's original name was Herban Folyer, but he abandoned his family name when his elder brother was renouced as a Wizard. Grudge remembers how Father threw himself in front of the Mage Slayer so that his brother could escape, and the horrified look on the Mage Slayers face as he ran an innocent man through. Grudge himself was horrified that his brother would turn to the dark arts, and that his father would die to save him. He feels that his brother is responsible for bewitching thier father merely to save his own hide, and deserves a slow painful death. In his hunt for his brother, he spent a great deal of time visiting the Mage Slayers, both looking for leads and to apply for the post. Though he's been turned away empty handed in all cases, he holds that if he is dedicated enough to the cause they'll accept him.
His obsession with hunting his brother, and the means he is willing to use to find and kill Wizards leans him towards the evil alignment, though he sees himself as working for the greater good. His methods and his personal vendetta is mostly what keeps the 'Slayers from using him. Grudge isn't subtle, or patient, or merciful, or ... hygenic, or personable. Perhaps as he adventures he can find a group to calm him down, maybe as he sees the world he'll take his blinders off.

Bathmer Rogwyn,
CG Human, wandering cleric of the Seven Senses.
"What? Never heard of the Church of the Seven Senses? Well, let me tell you. Are you buying the next round? There's not very many of us - we're so scattered about, really. No suprise you've never met one before. We worship the experience of new things. No big temple, no dues, no ceremonies or boring holy days -- anything new is sacred. A new spicy food, a breathtaking view, an itch in a new spot. All of it is wondrous and holy to us. For example, I've not tried that type of Brandy before. Pass it over, and let us pray! Anything new or wildly dangerous going on? I'm in danger of getting bored."

Bathmer worships Boccob, and has the domains of Magic and Trickery. Boccob, though, is a bit down on his luck, so Bathmer invented this "Seven Senses" thing to cheer him up. Even made a new holy symbol. It's shiny, you like it? Bathmer may seem crazy, but I think he's just a great liar. Bathmer is probably the most likely to dabble with multiclassing. I'd expect him to maybe take a level or two of rogue, and keep an eye out for any wonky P-classes. While the Seven Senses does start out as a lie, I expect it to turn into a really fun lie, and them maybe become truth to Bathmer as he decides it can be a valid faith in its own right.

rabkala
12-06-2007, 11:20 PM
Perhaps. Maybe a faction within the Mage Hunters. I kind of see them as zealous as a Paladin can be. They feel the work they do is good and they are justified in their actions no matter the cost. So they have a noble arrogance about the work they do and are highly aware of their responsibility in the world.

But I can see a faction within the "order" saying that they are the ones who should be ruling since they protect everyone from magic anyway. Maybe they even use magic slightly to their advantage!?
Yes! Great minds think alike. It probably just starts off as 'just a little magic to beat them at their own game', 'we will only use the magic for good', or 'we won't abuse the magic'. The next thing you know, the mage hunters have a secret order who are doing all the wrong things in the name of good and righteousness.

What if the Mage hunters did seek out magic items and warehouse them (like in Raiders of the Lost Arc)? Could the PCs sneak in or storm the place and procure some magic that way?



What about Clerics? I think I am going to make certain schools available and off limits based on the deity that the cleric worships. Yet still keep the above mentioned schools restricted or off limits. That way clerics of the god of death have some necromancy spells.
I would think clerics would make an extra showing of pomp and ritual to prove they are doing the gods biding. Maybe add extra somatic and/or verbal components to their spells to show this?
Don't forget, there are many benign spells in the restricted schools. All the curing spells are conjuration. All the good/holy/lawful spells like holy word and orders wrath are evocation. Simple spells like light are evocation.
Don't forget there are many ways to cross divine magic and arcane magic with use of feats and domains. Some gods might need to expand their portfolio's so clerics have more domain choices?

Inquisitor Tremayne
12-10-2007, 10:46 AM
Would the following characters fit in the world you had in mind?

Grudge McKinney
LN or LE Human Ranger1
Favored Enemy: Arcane Casters (if allowed)
Plans: take the feat "Mage Slayer" (complete arcane) and follow that tree of feats.

Grudge's original name was Herban Folyer, but he abandoned his family name when his elder brother was renouced as a Wizard. Grudge remembers how Father threw himself in front of the Mage Slayer so that his brother could escape, and the horrified look on the Mage Slayers face as he ran an innocent man through. Grudge himself was horrified that his brother would turn to the dark arts, and that his father would die to save him. He feels that his brother is responsible for bewitching thier father merely to save his own hide, and deserves a slow painful death. In his hunt for his brother, he spent a great deal of time visiting the Mage Slayers, both looking for leads and to apply for the post. Though he's been turned away empty handed in all cases, he holds that if he is dedicated enough to the cause they'll accept him.
His obsession with hunting his brother, and the means he is willing to use to find and kill Wizards leans him towards the evil alignment, though he sees himself as working for the greater good. His methods and his personal vendetta is mostly what keeps the 'Slayers from using him. Grudge isn't subtle, or patient, or merciful, or ... hygenic, or personable. Perhaps as he adventures he can find a group to calm him down, maybe as he sees the world he'll take his blinders off.

Bathmer Rogwyn,
CG Human, wandering cleric of the Seven Senses.
"What? Never heard of the Church of the Seven Senses? Well, let me tell you. Are you buying the next round? There's not very many of us - we're so scattered about, really. No suprise you've never met one before. We worship the experience of new things. No big temple, no dues, no ceremonies or boring holy days -- anything new is sacred. A new spicy food, a breathtaking view, an itch in a new spot. All of it is wondrous and holy to us. For example, I've not tried that type of Brandy before. Pass it over, and let us pray! Anything new or wildly dangerous going on? I'm in danger of getting bored."

Bathmer worships Boccob, and has the domains of Magic and Trickery. Boccob, though, is a bit down on his luck, so Bathmer invented this "Seven Senses" thing to cheer him up. Even made a new holy symbol. It's shiny, you like it? Bathmer may seem crazy, but I think he's just a great liar. Bathmer is probably the most likely to dabble with multiclassing. I'd expect him to maybe take a level or two of rogue, and keep an eye out for any wonky P-classes. While the Seven Senses does start out as a lie, I expect it to turn into a really fun lie, and them maybe become truth to Bathmer as he decides it can be a valid faith in its own right.


Yes both of those would fit in the game. The Mage hater might be a difficult fit in a party assuming there is a magic user in the party.



Yes! Great minds think alike. It probably just starts off as 'just a little magic to beat them at their own game', 'we will only use the magic for good', or 'we won't abuse the magic'. The next thing you know, the mage hunters have a secret order who are doing all the wrong things in the name of good and righteousness.

What if the Mage hunters did seek out magic items and warehouse them (like in Raiders of the Lost Arc)? Could the PCs sneak in or storm the place and procure some magic that way?

Of course they could. Assuming the PCs find out about the horde.



I would think clerics would make an extra showing of pomp and ritual to prove they are doing the gods biding. Maybe add extra somatic and/or verbal components to their spells to show this?
Don't forget, there are many benign spells in the restricted schools. All the curing spells are conjuration. All the good/holy/lawful spells like holy word and orders wrath are evocation. Simple spells like light are evocation.
Don't forget there are many ways to cross divine magic and arcane magic with use of feats and domains. Some gods might need to expand their portfolio's so clerics have more domain choices?

To the normal populace clerics are both held in suspicion and appreciated. The average person knows that they can come to their church and for a hefty price be healed by a cleric. And thats it. Most people don't know of their other spell casting ability and it is kept in check by the clerics Bishops and/or Archbishops.

A cleric has to have a special note from the ruler of their church that allows them to cast their spells outside of the church walls. With out this note a cleric that is caught casting spells usually brings the wrath of the Mage Hunters or the lord of the land not only on himself but on his church as well.

Malruhn
12-17-2007, 04:41 PM
I just had a thought (no, it didn't hurt!!).

What deities are available? Could it be possible that a sorcerer claim to be a Cleric of a Lost God (TM) and his spells are divine in nature? That might get him at least a bit of a start before he gets hunted down...

Maelstrom
12-17-2007, 09:21 PM
Could be a whole church made up specifically for the purpose of giving sorcerors a means to hide... They just show up in the town some day and build a shabby cathedral, have a list of beliefs few peasants would actually want to stick around and worship there, and still offer healing spells for a fee. They could get sanctioned with the ability to give out the "use divine magic outside church" cards even.

Inquisitor Tremayne
12-20-2007, 03:38 PM
While it is a good idea I don't want to have another divine spellcaster out there. Plus I like the idea of sorcerers being a secretive underground group, like a thieves guild. And I like the idea of them actually being descended from dragons but noone really knows for sure or not.

So we have:

Barbarians - almost never seen in the cities and always looked upon as uncouth heathens.

Bards - "Bards are non-magical - and the only thing people worry about are possible thefts of loot or maidens' honor when they come to town. They are, however, major messengers and are the broadcast news anchors of their day. When the bard comes to town, EVERYONE comes to listen!! If you've read the series, think of Thom in the Eye of the World series by Robert Jordan.

Of course, bards DO have magic, they just keep it a VERY tight secret.
They are a very close-knit group that is tighter than any thieves' guild."

Artificer - only available to gnome characters.

Clerics - must have permission to use their spells outside of their church walls. Watched closely by their leaders and the Mage Hunters.

Druids - stay out of most matters and away from the cities so they use their magic and think that the rules governing magic and the restrictions on its use are out of paranoia but are not dumb enough to enter a city and start casting spells.

Fighter - probably the most prominent class given all the wars that have ravaged teh land.

Monks - usually stay in their own temples and study and are the keepers of historic texts. They also travel to estabilsh new schools and what-not.

Paladin (Holy Warrior) - paladins no longer cast spells, they gain bonus feats at 4th, 8th, 11th, and 14th levels. they choose from the list presented in the Complete champion pg. 49. Holy Warriors are champions of their church and often times in the employ of the Mage Hunters as well to keep an eye on the clerics of their church also.

Ranger (Champion of the Wild) - rangers no longer cast spells but gain bonus feats at 4th, 8th, 11th, and 14th levels. They choose from the list presented in the Complete Champion pg. 50. Rangers are often guides for city folk travelling through the wild and as a Face for druids that want to interact with city folk.

Rogue - nuff said!

Sorcerer - like rogues in that they congregate in secret underground enclaves that offer protection and aid to each other. They gain hide, move silently and spot as class skills and gain the Eschew Materials feat at first level.

Wizard - a dying breed. No player may start as a 1st level wizard. Wizards gain hide, move silently and spot to their available class skills. I am considering giving wizards a bonus feat at first level and every 2 levels after (so 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, and 19th and expanding the list to include things like hiding and being stealthy.

hows that sound?

Malruhn
12-20-2007, 10:32 PM
Although everybody and their brother wants to kill them, you just made Wizards VERY powerful. Perhaps even TOO powerful.
______________

Also, please don't think that I was suggesting that Sorcerers were divine in nature. They are CLAIMING to be divine... as a cover.

Digital Arcanist
12-20-2007, 10:45 PM
Although everybody and their brother wants to kill them, you just made Wizards VERY powerful. Perhaps even TOO powerful.
______________

Also, please don't think that I was suggesting that Sorcerers were divine in nature. They are CLAIMING to be devine... as a cover.

I was thinking the same thing....you may want to look at the Warmage class for their approach to learning magic and their class abilities.

Malruhn
12-20-2007, 10:55 PM
DA, thanks for catching my typo - and quoting my ignorance for all future generations. "Devine"?? Evidently I didn't have a prayer of getting that one wright! ;-)

Digital Arcanist
12-20-2007, 11:04 PM
Good Lord.......I'm such a grammar Nazis that I didn't even notice I did that!!!!

Just for the record, I try not to correct people's grammar because its irritating and a little arrogant in my opinion, however, every once in awhile there is some horrible error that must be corrected. If I do correct anyone's grammar please understand I am not trying to be insulting or condescending. If I have insulted you, I apologize.:(:D

Malruhn
12-20-2007, 11:07 PM
You gotta do MUCH better than that to insult me!! ;)

I am a horrid grammar/spelling Nazi, and do my very bestest to catch everything before I hit *POST*. Unfortunately, sometimes something like, "devine," slides through before my check-speller can grab it.

The one thing I will NEVER correct is any variant spellage of "the", however. I type "teh" more times than I actually get it correct. Go figure! :D

No offense taken, no blood spilled, no harm, no foul. Not even any fowl. I'm just here to have fun! :)

Digital Arcanist
12-20-2007, 11:18 PM
I have a habit of spelling certain words in the French style (ie. centre and theatre). I also go back and correct my posts for errors weeks after I've made them.

Inquisitor Tremayne
12-21-2007, 12:14 AM
So then what can be done to make the Wizard class more appealing? Given that their spell selection is going to be limited and they are being hunted down.

Malruhn
12-21-2007, 12:25 AM
Top of my head - I got nothin'.

You may have painted yourself into a corner by making the class viciously hunted, hobbled by too few spells, and no clear way to fix it. Last I saw, the Evocation spells were out - which means the majority of blasting spells are out. Not much incentive to be a wizard if you ask me.

Perhaps having wizards being only NPC's in need of help... but that's really restrictive as well.

Crap, sorry for being no help at all.

Digital Arcanist
12-21-2007, 12:59 AM
Check out the cleric of Mystra and the section in the DMG about hedge witches. There are some alternatives to evocation-based spells in the DMG and the cleric has some interesting abilities you may want to add to your wizard to make them appealing.

Maelstrom
12-21-2007, 06:16 AM
I don't think there's any harm in making the existing wizards a little unbalanced like suggested in IT's post. The whole premise of the plot is that they do not exist as they once did.

Why bother even trying to balance them against the rest of the classes?What are you going to have, all party members trying to multiclass as wizard? If so they'll have other problems. And the real power of these wizards won't start showing up until a few levels anyways, so even with the buffs they'll have a tough enough time fighting off the mobs and assassins.

Inquisitor Tremayne
12-21-2007, 09:50 AM
I really don't see the wizards as being that restricted. I think my wizard = Jedi analogy works quite well.

The Jedi during the time of the Empire were hunted constantly and considered no longer a threat.

This is where wizards are in this game, except they can not be discovered simply by using their magic like Jedi could be when using the Force. In all reality its up to whoever is DMing in this setting (me) to provide the player playing a wizard with the appropriate spells.

What I envision happening is that most of their time is going to be spent out adventuring until they begin to get caught up in political affairs. So while they are out in the wild there really isn't anyone out there trying to get them. Its mostly in the cities where they have to be cautious.

As far as spell limitations, should they just have everything handed to them? I don't think so. They are going to have to work for the spells they want and I imagine they will be spending a good deal of time doing so.

A cautious PC and a considerate DM are going to be able to work together so everyone has fun.

Deciding on solid rules is only so both the player and the DM can have a middle ground from which to work.

I actually think it will be quite interesting to play a wizard in this time. They will still get their bonus spells at each level (slightly restricted) plus I am going to give them bonus feats (maybe not as frequently as I stated before).

I guess I am not really seeing how there is a problem with the wizards. They are still going to be powerful as usual, eventually getting more powerful evocation spells its just they are still going to need to be careful where they display their power. Whats wrong with that?

DrAwkward
12-21-2007, 11:33 AM
As far as spell limitations, should they just have everything handed to them? I don't think so. They are going to have to work for the spells they want and I imagine they will be spending a good deal of time doing so.

Problem #1: They have to multiclass. Multiclassing a pure caster class hobbles them. If they take more than one level of anything else, they immediately fall behind sorceror.

Best case, I'd start as a high Intelligence rogue. If I couldn't start wizard by second level, I'd not bother taking more than one level for flavor.

Problem #2: Restricted spell lists. This doesn't bother me so much. As a player, I'd assume "worst case" and figure I'll get 2 spells per level. I'd pick out the list I wanted through 9th level and run them past you. Once we worked out the allowed vs. not-allowed vs allowed-with-effort, I'd know if it was a character I'd want to play. Depending on how restrictive you were planning to be, this might be worth an extra spell slot per spell level.

Problem #3: Hunted. This is flavor, and falls in line with #2. If the spell list I had in mind doesn't call attention, then its a non-issue. At best this is worth a free feat chosen from Still Spell, Silent Spell, Eschew Material, or Spell Mastery.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I guess #1 is the sticking point for me. Everything else is flavor, and I know that you'd use that flavor to advance the story rather than punish me for taking wizard levels (provided I wasn't an idiot about it).

In a town, I'd need to lay low; stuff my spellbook and spell pouch in my bedroll and claim to be a Rogue1/commoner5. I assume you (as the DM) would take it easy on me in urban encounters, since I can't fully participate in the combat.

In a dungeon, however I'm still gimped by the multiclass. Without an attractive bonus to offset this restiction, I don't see my Wizard pulling his weight.

Digital Arcanist
12-21-2007, 12:39 PM
I think this feat found in Cityscape will be of the utmost utility for the wizard in a city.

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s303/DigitalArcanist/deceptivespell.jpg

I guess I would need to see the spell list before saying if the wizard needs modification. I just don't see the wizard skulking around like a rogue. I understand these guys are hunted but I think they would still cultivate that air of superiority rather than skulk. I would imagine that they would have bonuses to any stealth based spell like fog or invisibility as well as devising methods for hiding or camouflaging their spell books and other ingredients. I would give them Disguise as a class skill and maybe Sleight of Hand.

DrAwkward
12-21-2007, 04:00 PM
One thing I might suggest to offset the mandatory multiclassing is give Wizards the following class features:

Versatile -- Levels in wizard do not count towards multiclassing penalties; it counts as a prestige class in this regard. Classes that are penalized by multiclassing (like monk and paladin) still face those restrictions, however.

This is because of multiclassing restrictions that would hit some races unfairly. If you *must* multiclass to get wizard, the 20% xp hit on top of that is just painful.

Powerful Spellcasting -- At first level, the wizard learns to boost his spells. He may spontanously add a single "one level bump" metamagic feat to spells he casts, without raising the level of the spell. Doing so increases the casting time as it would for a sorceror. You must know the metamagic feat that you apply. You may still prepare spells with metamagic feats.

Basically, what this does is while a Wizard has fewer spells (because of being mutliclassed) his spells have more bang for the buck. Somebody that has to throw away 3-4 levels on something else may still be encouraged to take Wizard, because it effectively boosts all his spells by a level.

Inquisitor Tremayne
12-26-2007, 02:39 AM
I haven't absorbed all the info yet and will respond in full later.

One note as a DM I never have and never will use the -% xp for multi-classing. Does that change anything?

How about trading in levels? When you gain a new level and choose to level in the wizard classyou may trade in one of your levels from a previous class for nother level in wizard. So a 4th level rogue takes her 5th level as a wizard and chooses to trade in one of her rogue levels. she is now a 3rd level rogue 2nd level wizard.

Maybe there just isn't a way to make this work.

Dimthar
12-26-2007, 09:47 AM
The lore of Necomancy and Evocation is lost -- there is nobody available to teach them, and all books on the subjects have been confiscated or destroyed. These two schools are what got casters in such trouble, and they were the first schools the Mage Hunters targeted. Your training is going to be so limited, you just can't get a general education on the subject.

How about in the "Evil Lands", Aren't there any Liches or Necromancers? When dealing with the "Undead", I suggest you use some of the Van Ritchen's (Ravenloft) recommendations such as giving "Ghosts" and other creatures specific "weaknesses" tied to their Past and History, in that way the PC's won't get whacked by the Magical Creature immunities, that also help Role Playing investigator skills.

Dimthar
12-26-2007, 10:35 AM
So then what can be done to make the Wizard class more appealing? Given that their spell selection is going to be limited and they are being hunted down.

I suppose you can limit the amount of spells they receive each level, but you can figure out other ways to give them away like scrolls, or magical items which store "knowledge".

Some Mages in Al-Qadim made pacts with the Genie Lords, and they have a "Familiar Type" Mini-Elemental who goes to the Elemental Planes and fetches the spells for them. Selling your Soul to your Local Demon is a "Good" way to acquire more power (he he he :) )

If you think of the Wizards and Sorcerers as "Mutants from the X-Men", perhaps you will have 2 factions trying to recruit them (Archmage Carlo Xavier & Lich Lord Enrico Lehnsherr)

You may try to define the Mage Hunters more like a Dragon Slayer, If indeed Arcane Spell Casters are Rare, why have a full "Top Agency" to hunt 1 guy that "Pop-out" every other decade. Only powerful NPCs will be able to confront a Mage and survive, The Royal Mage Hunters may be only 9, one for each school of Magic.

How about treating the Mages as "Immortals", that would be a good way to win Power, if you kill another Wizard you gain his/her spells up to one spell level above yours

Remote towns or villages who have been favored with a "Good" Wizard in the past, may not be so unwelcome to the characters. Or when a Mage is killed, his inner Power is unleashed as a Natural Disaster (Earthquake, Tornado, etc.), perhaps an Urban Legend, but why risk it? Therefore the Mage Hunter must wait to confront the Wizard in an isolated place.

Dimthar
12-26-2007, 10:48 AM
Problem #3: Hunted. This is flavor, and falls in line with #2. If the spell list I had in mind doesn't call attention, then its a non-issue. At best this is worth a free feat chosen from Still Spell, Silent Spell, Eschew Material, or Spell Mastery.

I don't see why this is a problem. I would imagine that if you are affiliated to a Mage, you end being hunted as well.

WANTED ALIVE: Dangerous Mage. WANTED DEAD: Anyone protecting the Mage (Suspected to be a group composed by a Human, Dwarf and an Elf).

Wonder Pets: What's going to work!!??? Teamwork!!!

Malruhn
01-03-2008, 11:43 PM
But that sounds like you just created an entire campaign around one character... the Wizard.

DrAwkward
01-04-2008, 10:41 AM
One note as a DM I never have and never will use the -% xp for multi-classing. Does that change anything?Yes, this is very helpful.


How about trading in levels?This helps. There's still going to be a few levels in the mid range where they suffer from multi-classing blues, but at the high end they could swap in to all wizard levels and be on par with the party.

Swapping out one class for another sounds like some serious bookkeeping, though. Have you tried that sort of thing before?

rabkala
01-05-2008, 01:34 AM
I haven't absorbed all the info yet and will respond in full later.

One note as a DM I never have and never will use the -% xp for multi-classing. Does that change anything?

How about trading in levels? When you gain a new level and choose to level in the wizard classyou may trade in one of your levels from a previous class for nother level in wizard. So a 4th level rogue takes her 5th level as a wizard and chooses to trade in one of her rogue levels. she is now a 3rd level rogue 2nd level wizard.

Maybe there just isn't a way to make this work.

The experience penalty is nasty and restricts too much. I never use it. That should help the mage.

I think trading in levels could be a pain to track. Players like to get confused and forget to change in those fighter hit points or oops have too many feats, etc. It could be done with a little work, I don't know if I like it.

I think the fact that there is so much focus on spellcasters could make many people want to play them despite the disadvantages that Doc Awk sees. Feats like practiced spellcaster can keep their damage dealing spells potent. A free meta magic/arcane feat or something every couple levels would probably make me jump at the challenge.

tesral
01-05-2008, 06:01 PM
The experience penalty is nasty and restricts too much. I never use it. That should help the mage.



I do not understand the the XP penalty imposed on mages. They are the only class that loses XP when they succeed at something. I thought the deal was you overcome an obstacle or do something right you get experience, not lose experience. Who thought THAT up, and can we give it back?

One, there is the "succeed and fail" aspect. Two it brings the meta gaming XP concept into the game as a commodity. Now we have an artificer class that exists around the XP commodity. ARGH!!! It's STUPID!

Please, please PLEASE keep the meta gaming out of the game. XPs are just a score card, don't drag them in game.

rabkala
01-05-2008, 07:10 PM
Actually, we were talking about the 20% experience penalty that a character faces due to multi-classing penalties. It was made to restrict demi-humans and monstrous characters. It was then carried over to gimp anyone who likes to multi-class, like it wasn't hard enough already.

You are talking about the EXP cost of crafting items and casting certain spells. I am not a fan of that either and agree with your criticism of it. I can understand the need to try to balance some high level magics and rampant item abuse, but not with experience points.

tesral
01-05-2008, 10:46 PM
Actually, we were talking about the 20% experience penalty that a character faces due to multi-classing penalties. It was made to restrict demi-humans and monstrous characters. It was then carried over to gimp anyone who likes to multi-class, like it wasn't hard enough already.

The multiclass rules fall under that old TSR pratice of trying to make something as difficult and poison-pilled as possible without actually saying no.

I never used a fraction of the restrictions they wanted, and never really had an issue with over powered PCs either. Most people didn't multiclass. The bookkeeping was enough to discourage it.

Later I adapted the rule in 2e for custom classes to make blended classes. I still use that rule. I also use the table with powerful races. instead of ECL I have the XP rider. It works, it spreads the cost out over the character's entire advancement instead of putting them in a level hole they never really get out of.



You are talking about the EXP cost of crafting items and casting certain spells. I am not a fan of that either and agree with your criticism of it. I can understand the need to try to balance some high level magics and rampant item abuse, but not with experience points.

Magic item creation can be balanced with money and time There is no reason to make XP into a commodity.

Digital Arcanist
01-06-2008, 02:24 PM
HEY!!!

This thread is about a custom game that the Inquisitor is creating, not about rules covered in the PBH, which he isn't using. Let's not muddle this thread with discussions where there are already threads for guys.:rolleyes:

Inquisitor Tremayne
01-06-2008, 03:00 PM
thanks for the feedback guys.

The trading in levels would require some bookkeeping but I am talking about one level at a time everytime they level. In the previous version of the Star wars roleplaying game you could trade in your Jedi levels for Sith levels and do them all at once. That was crazy. I don't think It would be that bad. And they would probably just have to trade in a percentage of their previous hit points but still gain the d4 from their wizard level.

I'm surprised this has turned into this "big of a Deal" because we are talking about only 4 players, maybe 5 and probably only 1 of them is going to choose wizard, and even then they would probably choose sorcerer.


Aside from the "restrictions" does this sound like a feasible game world?

rabkala
01-06-2008, 03:27 PM
Yes.

So, what area should we turn into the next big deal? :D

Maelstrom
01-07-2008, 05:37 AM
Aside from the "restrictions" does this sound like a feasible game world?

Absolutely. Sounds like a fun playground. You'll probably have to throw out all the suggestions the first time its playtested anyways :)

imtheguido
01-07-2008, 11:17 PM
Hey, I absolutely LOVE this campaign setting idea that you have going here. I am really really curious if you would mind letting me use it for a group that I want to get started? I wouldn't claim it as my own idea of course, but something this great just cant be passed up. Admittedly, Ive already began a couple different spin offs from what you have, including a few class variants that I pulled off the top of my head.

Just wanted to get your permission first before I started using some of your names, Ive always had a problem with that part of the world design. >.< Hope to hear from you soon!

Inquisitor Tremayne
01-08-2008, 09:25 AM
Sure! No problem! Knock yourself out!

I have tons of word documents with all my ideas and maps of all the lands and some details of the various kingdoms too if you are interested.

imtheguido
01-08-2008, 12:49 PM
That would be totally awesome if you could email that stuff to me at imtheguido@gmail.com! I really look forward to putting some development into this myself, to bring it a bit closer to my DMing style. Hope to hear from you soon!