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View Full Version : Okay, I want one... Amazon's New Kindle



Farcaster
11-20-2007, 12:36 PM
I logged into Amazon last night to browse for a couple new books, and lo and behold, Amazon's front page was splashed with a new product they have introduced called the Kindle (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000FI73MA?ie=UTF8&tag=penandpaperga-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B000FI73MA). This cool little (10 oz) device lets you download and read your books in a portable hand-held with a page-white display that is supposed to be easier on the eyes than reading from a computer screen. The price is a little steep though at $400! Still, how cool would that be to be able to download a new book that just came out in 60 seconds or so and start reading it immediately?

Check out the demonstration video (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000FI73MA?ie=UTF8&tag=penandpaperga-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B000FI73MA). It looks awesome.

PhishStyx
11-20-2007, 12:50 PM
Wow, 2 minutes into the video, and I'm already sold on it.


Heh-heh, and my wife says she doesn't know what to get me for Christmas. :D

Moritz
11-20-2007, 01:21 PM
Totally the future.

Consider text books on this thing? It would be a student's dream.

Moritz
11-20-2007, 01:28 PM
And when the world is hit by an EMP from a solar flare, or alien invasion, all of this is just /over/.

PhishStyx
11-20-2007, 01:40 PM
Text books? Hell, consider RPG books on it!

That alone makes it nearly worth the price to me.

Farcaster
11-20-2007, 01:47 PM
You know, it does kind of remind me of the PADDs from Star Trek -- except slicker and easier to read, actually.


PADDs from Star Trek:

Moritz
11-20-2007, 02:04 PM
I'm sure what ever Jolene Blalock is holding would be fine by me.

fmitchell
11-20-2007, 02:10 PM
Yes, but would Jolene Blalock pay ten cents apiece to email her own documents to her handheld device? Is that logical?

PhishStyx
11-20-2007, 02:15 PM
Actually, I'm pretty sure there's a work-around for that pay to email business.

Moritz
11-20-2007, 02:22 PM
Yes, but would Jolene Blalock pay ten cents apiece to email her own documents to her handheld device? Is that logical?

She should get it for free just because she's hawt.

Digital Arcanist
11-20-2007, 07:35 PM
I'm buying one......as long as they publish every book in this format. The downfall of the eReader was that all the books you would never read were the only ones available for the device.

Does it have color or just black and white? The video didn't show any photographs or magazines with pictures or special formatting.

I so want one of these things!!!!!!!!!1!!!!111!!!

Farcaster
11-20-2007, 07:43 PM
Well, I cannot say how many future books they will have on this format, but at the moment they have some 90,000 books. That's a pretty good starting base. I think it will do well. I just hope that RPG publishers will consider allowing their books to be digitally distributed like this. It would be nice to replace my satchel full of thirty pounds of books with a ten ounce Kindle when I DM a game at someone else's house.

Moritz
11-21-2007, 07:48 AM
I'm still going to wait around 4 years before buying one. I want the kind that will have color pictures, more books, textbooks, game books, etc. Plus have more access to the internet. Yes, I want our world version of a PADD.

InfoStorm
11-21-2007, 09:43 AM
Well, with tech advancing as fast as it is, we may have those pads by the end of this decade DEFINATELY before the end of the next. We'll be on what, D&D 8.0 by then?

Grinnen Baeritt
11-21-2007, 10:05 AM
I can imagine there will soon be a subscription service that allows direct neural implants into your optic nerve...or even deeper. Then you wouldn't have even to read it at all.

Of course Microsoft would market it as "Windows to the Soul".

Coming soon.

You read it here first. :p

Digital Arcanist
11-21-2007, 11:08 AM
I've already signed up to beta test that......thank you Microsoft Developers Conference 2007!!!!

PhishStyx
11-21-2007, 12:28 PM
Ok, I've been researching some tech blogs about the Kindle, and apparently it won't accept even MOBI docs converted from PDF, which I'm not keen on. That really lowers the usage I could gain from the reader.


Check these out:
http://hotair.com/archives/2007/11/20/video-are-you-ready-for-the-bookpod/

http://gadgets.boingboing.net/2007/11/19/15-things-i-just-lea.html

Digital Arcanist
11-21-2007, 12:59 PM
Some of the comments on hot air are kinda lame. People are predicting this thing will flop simply because people like to turn pages and wear glasses? That makes no sense to me.

The gadget I designed for my senior project was like this only it was made for textbooks. I should send my designs to Amazon and Google. You all could be purchasing one of my iLibros next Christmas (iBook is taken by Apple right?).

Farcaster
11-21-2007, 01:37 PM
iBook is taken by Apple right?

Dunno. I imagine that Amazon wouldn't want to use that name because then they'd be associating their product with the Apple line. Although that might be a boon for sales, it wouldn't help promote their own brand and people would be confused about who made it.

Digital Arcanist
11-21-2007, 06:22 PM
I was also thinking iTome and iText.

Mulsiphix
11-22-2007, 08:10 AM
No kidding right. Although if it was downloaded straight to your brain wouldn't it be the equivalent of what was shown in the Matrix while the actors were "jacked in"?

Farcaster
11-22-2007, 12:58 PM
What would be the fun in that though? If it was downloaded straight into your brain I would think it would be more like remembering a story you read. I rather enjoy curling up with a good book and reading. I savor every page, and often when I am finished with a book, there is a certain sadness that goes along with it that the story has come to an end. Making it instantaneous would remove the enjoyment from one of my favorite pass-times.

Now, downloading tech manuals and not having to spend time reading through those... that would be cool.

Inkpot
12-27-2007, 10:54 AM
Out of curiosity, does anyone know of any gamebooks that are being published in this format?

Mulsiphix
12-27-2007, 11:58 AM
What would be the fun in that though? If it was downloaded straight into your brain I would think it would be more like remembering a story you read. I rather enjoy curling up with a good book and reading. I savor every page, and often when I am finished with a book, there is a certain sadness that goes along with it that the story has come to an end. Making it instantaneous would remove the enjoyment from one of my favorite pass-times.I would have to agree with Farcaster on this one. Part of the greatness of any story is experiencing it as you read through it. Things like dictionaries, encyclopedias, novels you don't want to read but need to for school or work, etc... would be great to instantly download to your brain. Real novels and stories should be savored though and would always find a place on my bookshelves :p

tesral
01-02-2008, 04:29 PM
I am avoiding it like the plauge. Why?

Becasue you don't get to buy the books, only rent them for the life of the Kindle.

When they produce a reader that gives me an open format book file that is mine, that is I can copy it from my reader and store the book on my computer, or copy it to as many readers as I might have. Or even print the book out if that pleases me. Then and only then I will consdier it. DRM is DRM and is not your friend. The Kindle is not user rights friendly. Therefore it is not friendly to me.

Farcaster
01-02-2008, 05:47 PM
Hmm.. Don't you think that if and when they release a new version of the Kindle, they will be able to import your collection into the new device?

As for having an open format, I don't think that is the way to go. As it stands now, legally, you can only have one copy of a book you purchase anyway. You are not allowed to make as many copies as you please. And, heck, doing so would probably be cost and labor prohibitive anyway. That being the case, I don't see how it is much different.

I do understand your concern though about not necessarily having access to the book for a lifetime. If Amazon or the Kindle tanks, it is possible that you will only be able to access your book from a device with a lifespan that is presumably much shorter than your typical hardback. And... that would suck for sure!

Mulsiphix
01-03-2008, 01:56 AM
I do understand your concern though about not necessarily having access to the book for a lifetime. If Amazon or the Kindle tanks, it is possible that you will only be able to access your book from a device with a lifespan that is presumably much shorter than your typical hardback. And... that would suck for sure!I think that about sums up the problem with digital distribution. No physical product and you only have access to it for as long as the service it was obtained by is alive and running. When ITunes eventually tanks or is replaced by the competition, all those hundreds or even thousands that dedicated ITunes fans spent is gone. Convenience in the digital age is only convenient in the short term. Long term it is a nightmare. On the other hand how many people will still want to listen to the same album, which they've heard hundreds of times, thirty years into the future when ITunes is replaced or closes its digital doors?

tesral
01-03-2008, 09:53 AM
Well in answer to both the above. Books don't crash. I still own books I have had for 45 years. The format hasn't gone out of date, the "machine" has not failed. I don't need to do back ups or transfer the format because messy/word won't read it any more. When I buy a book it is MINE. I can read it, sit on it. I can lend it to a friend to read. I can transfer ownership when and if I please. I can do none of that with Amazon's closed format.

30 year old albums? Like all the PP&M I have and enjoy? I don't recall any agreement I signed to toss my music out when the formating changed, yet again.

No, you cannot transfer your Kindle files to a new Kindle. So if your Kindle buys the farm, tough luck. If my book shelf breaks, I get a new book shelf and load the books back on it.

Ergo open and transferable formats are an issue. Anyone here have a 10 year old laptop? Do you use it? Does it work? How about a cell phone? Kindles are going to be like laptops and cell phones, hard used and needing replacement now and again. You're going to lose your books every time that happens.

What about if you fill your Kindle? Do you stop buying books? Do you have to delete and lose old books to get new ones?

No, the closed format is not the book lover's friend. I have and still love books I have had for forty five years. It is an issue. Better that I treat the reader like my MP3 player, as something I fill from a storehouse of books on my PC and change out as required. I have the Gutenberg collection. I can't load any of those plain text documents on a Kindle. Thousands of books in the public domain, but I can't read them on a Kindle unless Amazon elects to sell them to me, again.

The Kindle is nothing more than a money tree for Amazon. You cannot buy books form anyone else on a Kindle. It's called vendor lock in, and is loathed among people that like computers. So, you pay 500 bucks to buy a revenue stream for Amazon. A direct wireless link from your wallet to their cash register. I don't think so.

rabkala
01-03-2008, 10:11 AM
I thought it looked pretty cool too when I saw it. The more points that are brought up, the less I like it. Why do I need it... laptops are getting smaller everyday.

Digital Arcanist
01-03-2008, 10:40 AM
We have to move toward a digital solution because the resources needed to print books are increasingly more expensive. Comic books are 4 bucks an issue for 22 pages of ads and paperbacks are soaring towards 9 dollars for a couple hundred pages. I paid over 1000 dollars for textbooks my final SEMESTER of college!!!

Additionally with digital formats it is much easier for a publisher to add graphics and interesting fonts into the text.

There are some hurdles to jump still but the benefits outweigh the costs.

Mulsiphix
01-03-2008, 10:55 AM
The entire postAMEN!!! Preach it my brother! Amazon is the DEVIL!!!

Farcaster
01-03-2008, 12:17 PM
When ITunes eventually tanks or is replaced by the competition, all those hundreds or even thousands that dedicated ITunes fans spent is gone.

That was my concern with iTunes as well, but after I got my wife an iPod Touch for Christmas this year, I found out that I could burn iTunes to a CD. Once they are burned, I can do whatever I want with them. So, if iTunes tanks, I still am able to have a hard copy of the music I purchased to potentially import into something else.


No, you cannot transfer your Kindle files to a new Kindle. So if your Kindle buys the farm, tough luck. If my book shelf breaks, I get a new book shelf and load the books back on it.
Actually, yes you can. All books you purchase on Amazon are retained in your online collection [reference (http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=200137090&#yml)]. I imagine that when the next generation of Kindle comes out, they will either be compatible with the new version, or they will be converted. Also, if your Kindle breaks, you could redownload them to your new Kindle.


What about if you fill your Kindle? Do you stop buying books? Do you have to delete and lose old books to get new ones?
You might want to look more closely at the features of the Kindle, because concerns like this are clearly addressed in the starter video and in the FAQ. But to answer your question, you have a couple of options. You can add an SD card to it, which will give you a lot more room to download books. Or, you can delete things off and redownload them from your collection (referenced above) when you want to read them again.



I can't load any of those plain text documents on a Kindle. Thousands of books in the public domain, but I can't read them on a Kindle unless Amazon elects to sell them to me, again.
Yes you can! You can have your documents converted and sent to your Kindle. You can either have them wirelessly delivered over the WhisperNet network for something like 10 cents per document, or you can have them sent to an email address and then download them to your Kindle via USB for free. [reference (http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=200140600)]


The Kindle is nothing more than a money tree for Amazon. You cannot buy books form anyone else on a Kindle. It's called vendor lock in, and is loathed among people that like computers. So, you pay 500 bucks to buy a revenue stream for Amazon. A direct wireless link from your wallet to their cash register. I don't think so.

Well, I suppose it would depend on the format of the e-book. They are currently working on converting PDFs, so that'd cover a lot of books that you can currently download. Sure, it is going to be most convenient to buy from Amazon, but you aren't locked in. You could buy from other vendors and have them loaded on your Kindle.

Mulsiphix
01-03-2008, 12:37 PM
Farcaster have you thought about selling these things door to door? Your a very convincing man. GRAWR I want to play in your campaign :mad:

tesral
01-03-2008, 01:39 PM
We have to move toward a digital solution because the resources needed to print books are increasingly more expensive.

I agree. Digital formats are a good thing. Open standard digital formats. RTF ODF, even PDF although that is not my favorite as Adobe is closed mouthed about it. If the author wishes a locked format that cannot be edited fine. I however want one that is not so locked I cannot move it from digital storage medium to digital storage medium. Such as from my main library on my PC to the reader I carry with me.

I am not anti digitial, I am anti DRM. DRM which means to remove my rights.

Farcaster
01-03-2008, 01:44 PM
I am not anti digitial, I am anti DRM. DRM which means to remove my rights.

What about the rights of the author? If the document is in an open format, how do you protect the author's rights? You can't just expect that people will be honest and not make copies. I think the rampant sharing of mp3s, and PDF copies of books demonstrates that.

If Amazon didn't have some sort of method to prevent unauthorized copies of an author's work, I doubt very much that they'd have many publishers or authors willing to have their books available digitally.

tesral
01-03-2008, 03:49 PM
What about the rights of the author? If the document is in an open format, how do you protect the author's rights? You can't just expect that people will be honest and not make copies. I think the rampant sharing of mp3s, and PDF copies of books demonstrates that.

I don't. I object to being treated like a criminal when I have no intention of being one. I buy my music, computer programs and movies. I expect to also get my full fair use and backup rights when I do. Heck, I AM a writer. I understand copyright and I favor a reasonable copyright on new works.

First and foremost, DRM does not work. To quote Eric Raymond "Making bits uncopyable is like making water not wet." If the bits cannot be copied, the file cannot be used. Every DRM scheme that has been introduced has been defeated within a week. The only thing DRM manages to do is keep honest people from properly making use of the rights and services they are entitled to when they buy something. Do you have a backup copy of all your games CDs, computer programs and DVDs? You are entitled to make one. I doubt it, even if you did want them DRM would stop you.

Second, DRM is uneven. Schemes intedned to stop most computer users do not stop me. I run Linux. Ask me if I care if the disk has anti windows DRM?

Third, DRM users are breaking the law with it. Remember the Sony root kit of early 2007? Infecting peoples' computers, installing programs without their knowledge and consent, and seriously, seriously compromising their security is against the law. But no one went to jail for it. We are expected to be good people, cooperations that buy laws don't have to be. Oh, did I mention double standards cheese me off?

DRM doesn't work. I will not pay for it. Sorry, but you hit one of my buttons.

Mulsiphix
01-03-2008, 04:58 PM
The problem for me is that Farcaster and Tesral both make very valid arguements. Corporations will not stop trying to protect their material until piracy stops being a threat. Until people stop stealing things they haven't paid for, legitimate customers will continue to suffer crazy copy protection schemes like DRM. DRM, and similar attempts to protect copyrighted material, is annoying and right violating enough that honest customers turn to piracy so they don't have to deal with the headache that is DRM. It is a vicious cycle and I think more and more people are turning to piracy because of things like DRM.

tesral
01-03-2008, 05:29 PM
DRM, and similar attempts to protect copyrighted material, is annoying and right violating enough that honest customers turn to piracy so they don't have to deal with the headache that is DRM. It is a vicious cycle and I think more and more people are turning to piracy because of things like DRM.

For example, there are two DVD codexes for Linux. The one that is legal in the US, and the one that works. I know of several examples of people that have paid good mony for a product, yet had to go download a cracked copy to get it to work on their systems. Why, the company said in effect, "we have your money so we don't care".

I believe the answer lies, in part, in less restrictive copyright. life of the creator plus 70 years is way too long. (Thank Disney and their lobby.) There is a way to ensure author rights, and DRM is not the way.

I don't care about corperations. Authors and artists, those I care about.

Mulsiphix
01-03-2008, 08:32 PM
don't care about corperations. Authors and artist, those I care about.I find it weird that as a... digital endulger... I feel nothing when taking from massive corporations. Using something from a budding game company makes me feel horrible. Just about everything I own is from the small companies that are either getting their start or remain on the "mom and pop store" level of business. Honor among thieves or hated for the heartless war machine that is corporate America?

tesral
01-03-2008, 09:33 PM
I find it weird that as a... digital endulger... I feel nothing when taking from massive corporations. Using something from a budding game company makes me feel horrible. Just about everything I own is from the small companies that are either getting their start or remain on the "mom and pop store" level of business. Honor among thieves or hated for the heartless war machine that is corporate America?

It may be that we the public can well see and resent that the corporations are stealing from us. Flaunting their theft even in the laws they buy to protect themselves at the expense of everyone else. No ones business model has any right to survive by taking money from my pocket, unless I volunteer to pay it. Be that the auto insurer that legally robs me every month, or the RIAA that is trying to lobby into law charging me for a song stuck in my head. No I don't respect the record companies, they are thieves too. They cry about the "poor artist" Ask them how much of that extortion money they sue people for goes to the artists. Or for that matter how much of the price of your CD the artist gets. I prefer to buy my music directly from the artist. I know too many musicians and the kind of used bull feed the record companies pull to keep from paying them.

Because of this few people have any scruples in stealing back. I think stealing is stealing myself. I much prefer to simply not buy from them and tell them why. "You suck and so does your product. No more for me." I have done this to a number of companies. Sony, Western Digital, Wizards of the Coast. Many local firms have customer inserviced themselves out of my business.

So, while Amazon locks down the device, I will not be buying one, that simple. While they charge me to load MY books onto MY book reader no matter how small the price, I am not buying one. Until I can store my book collection on my computer and not theirs, I am not buying one. Otherwise I am paying to buy a device they are totally in control of, and that to me is not owning the device.

It isn't my computer unless I have the root password.

Mulsiphix
01-03-2008, 10:22 PM
I've actually been looking for something like this for a while. A small tablet sized mini-pc that allows me to read a variety of documents that I load onto it. Something that responds to a stylus and I can easily carry around with me. An entire laptop is overkill for just reading documents on the go and it can be a real waste of space at a crowded table. I'm thinking of a simple USB device like an MP3 player that can read SD Cards. I know of no such product though. Any chance anybody here knows of one or if anything like this is being worked on by anybody? Companies usually announce these kinds of things long before they even start official development.

Farcaster
01-10-2008, 04:02 AM
Finally got an email today from Amazon...


We now have estimated delivery dates for the Kindle order you placed
on 12/11/07:

Kindle: Amazon's new wireless reading device [Electronics]
Estimated arrival date range: 01/25/2008 - 02/1/2008

Oh, sweet baby Jesus! Come for to carry me home! Wohoo!

Mulsiphix
01-10-2008, 04:13 AM
After all this discussion, which I find reminiscent of 3.X vs 4E before it's been released, please be sure to share your thoughts on it once it arrives.

Digital Arcanist
01-10-2008, 08:08 PM
I'm interested in the diversity of fantasy and sci-fi novels I can download and what the magazines look like.

Farcaster
01-10-2008, 09:52 PM
Have you taken a look at the Kindle Books (http://www.amazon.com/b/ref=sv_kinc_1/104-6555556-5907941?ie=UTF8&node=154606011) section?

tesral
01-10-2008, 10:12 PM
Finally got an email today from Amazon...
Oh, sweet baby Jesus! Come for to carry me home! Wohoo!

I hope you don't end up being carried off :D Seriously I hope early adoption doen't bite you.

My Daddy never said: "Never try anything new until you see if it kills someone."

Mulsiphix
01-10-2008, 11:30 PM
I didn't even know it was there. Now that I know they carry Dungeon Seduction (http://www.amazon.com/Dungeon-Seduction/dp/B000WQ1196/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=digital-text&qid=1200029361&sr=1-2) I simply must have one :D

Digital Arcanist
01-11-2008, 09:42 PM
There are no FR, Eberron, or Dragonlance novels offered......I'll wait until they offer them...:(:mad: