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Farcaster
10-05-2007, 02:21 PM
It looks like we have some of our first hints of how this new design concept of "Points of Light (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20070829a)" will have on the Forgotten Realms campaign setting. Below is an excerpt from the sample chapter of "The Orc King" by R.A. Salvatore. In the prelude, the story flashes forward one hundred years to 1472 DR, presumably. In this heated exchange, Drizzt foreshadows some events that have had Realms-shattering implications. Whole cities and countries have gone under apparently.




“I have ventured outside of the Silver Marches,” Drizzt said, “have you? I have witnessed the death of once-proud Luskan, and with it, the death of a dear, dear friend, whose dreams lay shattered and broken beside the bodies of five thousand victims. I have watched the greatest cathedral in the world burn and collapse. I witnessed the hope of the goodly drow, the rise of the followers of Eilistraee. But where are they now?”

“You speak in ridd—” the elf started, but Drizzt slammed him again.

“Gone!” Drizzt shouted. “Gone, and gone with them the hopes of a tamed and gentle world. I have watched once safe trails revert to wilderness, and have walked a dozen-dozen communities that you will never know. They are gone now, lost to the Spellplague or worse! Where are the benevolent gods? Where is the refuge from the tumult of a world gone mad? Where are the candles to chase away the darkness?”

Hralien had quietly moved around the wall and walked up beside Drizzt. He put a hand on the drow’s shoulder, but that brought no more than a brief pause in the tirade. Drizzt glanced at him before turning back to the captured elf.

“They are here, those lights of hope,” Drizzt said, to both elves. “In the Silver Marches. Or they are nowhere. Do we choose peace or do we choose war? If it is battle you seek, fool elf, then get you gone from this land. You will find death aplenty, I assure you. You will find ruins where once proud cities stood. You will find fields of wind-washed bones, or perhaps the remains of a single hearth, where once an entire village thrived.

“And in that hundred years of chaos, amidst the coming of darkness, few have escaped the swirl of destruction, but we have flourished. Can you say the same for Thay? Mulhorand? Sembia? You say I betray those who befriended me, yet it was the vision of one exceptional dwarf and one exceptional orc that built this island against the roiling sea.”


We also have a possible timeline for the Spellplague that is referenced in this snippet. According to one poster on enworld.org, the Grand History of the Realms (http://www.penandpapergames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2175) sets up a possible event that might be the Spellplauge:


In 1385 DR, With help from Shar, Cyric murders Mystra in Dweomerheart, destroying the plane and Savras, as well as sending Azuth and Velsharoon into the Astral plane.

Magic bursts from the bonds of the Weave. Thousands of mages are driven insane or destroyed, and the very subsatnce of the world becomes mutable beneath the veils of azure fire that dance across the sky.So, this sounds interesting. It would make playing in Forgotten Realms a completely different experience. As a DM, I'm excited to explore the story possibilities behind running the world in a post golden-era.

I'm curious to know what other Forgotten Realms fans here think though. Is this a good or bad thing for the setting?

Digital Arcanist
10-05-2007, 04:01 PM
So I think Wulfgar died in Luskan....

I have a hard time thinking Cyric killed Mystra. With a thought she witheld the Weave from him and took all his power in Crucible.

So I wonder if Shadow weave magic functions properly since Shar is the goddess who controls that weave. I also wonder why the other gods including Corellon didn't step in and fix things. Is the madness contained to humans only?

I'm looking forward to reading the next round of books and the new supplements.

I think that magic-users will be played down if you run the risk of going mad every time you use magic. Worse yet, the spell you use yields a totally different effect. It will benefit the game, in my opinion, if people stop using magic-users as a crutch. The game shouldn't stop just because all the magic missiles have been cast and the healing is used up.

Ed Zachary
10-05-2007, 05:55 PM
Get rid of all the Deities, and watch the mortals scramble to form new religions.

rabkala
10-05-2007, 09:07 PM
It does depend on how it plays out. As it sounds to me, the low magic world type who are afraid of books will like it.

rabkala
10-06-2007, 09:13 PM
I think that magic-users will be played down if you run the risk of going mad every time you use magic. Worse yet, the spell you use yields a totally different effect. It will benefit the game, in my opinion, if people stop using magic-users as a crutch. The game shouldn't stop just because all the magic missiles have been cast and the healing is used up.

It could be interesting to explore. One benefit would be a new importance on clerical magic. Clerics can be very heavy hitters in the spell arena with the right build.

I hated playing in Dragonlance when it first came out because of the lack of clerics. D&D really needs clerics. Even Modern D20 with its different rules is difficult without them IMHO.

Digital Arcanist
10-06-2007, 11:30 PM
In the Forgotten Realms world, at least in the novels, all magic stems from Mystra except for the shadow weave. So far the only god able to access the shadow weave is Shar and only the wizards from Shadow use the shadow weave to cast magic.

When the gods fell during the Time of Troubles, all magic went wonky because Mystra wasn't there to control it. All the fallen gods had to get power directly from the souls of their followers. This leads me to believe that clerical magic will take the same hit as arcane magic. Those deities with the greatest following will have reliable magic.

starfalconkd
10-07-2007, 07:30 AM
I'm not thrilled about some of the directions they are headed with the realms. I was slightly irked when they killed one of my favorite characters (Halaster) rather badly. It wasn't so much that he died, more the way he died. I'm concerned about jumping the time line 100 years. Are they just going to gloss over 100 years worth of history and say, "and so it was"? That seems like a ham-handed tactic to bring the realms into focus with their new vision of D&D. Still, I don't want to jump to any conclusions. I'll wait and see how it all turns out and if I don't like it I won't use it.

Digital Arcanist
10-07-2007, 03:16 PM
The story takes place 100 year in the future but the campaign setting isn't moving to that point. The time when Mystra dies seems to be pretty close to current Dale Reckoning which is 1385-1387.

rabkala
10-07-2007, 07:13 PM
Didn't WoTC say that the default campaign setting for 4.0 would be the realms? They have never really done anything for support of Greyhawk,the default setting of 3.0/3.5, since taking over. Now a sudden club-fisted attempt to reinvent the setting of FR to fit 4.0, might be the beginning of the end. No one wants to repurchase the piles of material for the realms just because a new edition comes out. Many big fans could become the holdout 3.x players of the future.

Farcaster
10-07-2007, 08:29 PM
So I think Wulfgar died in Luskan....

I've been wondering about this tidbit, DA. In the newest novel, The Orc King, Wulfgar is definitely still alive. Is it foreshadowed elsewhere that he ultimately dies in Luskan?

Digital Arcanist
10-07-2007, 09:50 PM
I don't know if it is Farcaster. Its just my guess from the way Drizzt speaks in the excerpt you posted and then his words about Bruenar and his building of a new kingdom.

I haven't read the The Orc King as I am on the waiting list at the library (I never buy hardcover books anymore)

Wulfgar also had a deep tie to Luskan as he took his wife there and spent time as a bouncer in the bar there. I don't remember Drizzt having any other friends from Luskan. I believe they were quite hostile to him while he searched out Wulfgar and had the business with the pirate women there.

Tony Misfeldt
03-22-2008, 09:12 PM
I don't know if it is Farcaster. Its just my guess from the way Drizzt speaks in the excerpt you posted and then his words about Bruenar and his building of a new kingdom.

I haven't read the The Orc King as I am on the waiting list at the library (I never buy hardcover books anymore)

Wulfgar also had a deep tie to Luskan as he took his wife there and spent time as a bouncer in the bar there. I don't remember Drizzt having any other friends from Luskan. I believe they were quite hostile to him while he searched out Wulfgar and had the business with the pirate women there.

Wulfgar had a deep tie to Luskan. That tie was severed with the death of his wife Delly in The Two Swords from The Hunters Blade Trilogy. I think the friend he was referring to was Captain Deudermont of The Sea Sprite. He's also a very dear friend of Drizzt's, and his business as a pirate hunter often brings him into port in Luskan. Also, Wulfgar went back to Icewind Dale to be with his people and return to their traditional way of life. He doesn't ever want to go back. The closest he'll ever come to civilization from now on is going to be when he goes to Ten Towns to conduct trade for the tribes. He may even once again become King of The Tribe Of The Elk. But he'll never again travel so far south as Luscan.

Oh, and you should probably reread the novel where Wulfgar reunites with Drizzt and the others to defeat the pirate women and get Aegis-fang back. When Drizzt and company arrived at Luscan's gates he was quite warmly received by the guards and the townsfolk, except for one young guard who had never heard of him and was freaked out by the sight of a dark elf. Everyone else remembered him as one of the most celebrated members of The Sea Sprite's crew.

As for how this bleak future of The Realms turns out? I'll have to wait and see. While FR is my favorite campaign setting, I must admit things seem a little placid lately. Shaking things up could be just what the world needs to keep things interesting. On the other hand, they may end up over doing it and make things too dark. It'll certainly make for some interesting reading when this all translates into novels of The Cataclysm. I'll save my opinions until after some more material on this comes out.

nijineko
03-23-2008, 12:32 AM
i know exactly how it will turn out. ;)

some will rave for it, some will love it, some will like it, some will dislike it, some will hate it, and some will rave against it.

there, that pretty much spells it out in vauge muddy details. ^^

i have never been deeply vested in the realms. although i do like the maps. =D handy things. and the various bits and pieces are cool. the "worm who hides in blades", for example. quite the character. =D not to mention his handy "steal steel" and "bright and deadly ring" powers. very nice.

Kilrex
03-23-2008, 11:11 AM
The story takes place 100 year in the future but the campaign setting isn't moving to that point. The time when Mystra dies seems to be pretty close to current Dale Reckoning which is 1385-1387.

Mystra is already dead. Was reading "Undead" by Richard Byers, the second book in The Haunted Lands series, and she gets killed off in the book. Her death shatters both the Weave and the Shadow Weave. The afters effects are pretty destructive and chaotic. Szass Tam had a little warning and gets help from Bane to be able to use what little magic is left easier. Thay is now alot different.

HistoryDave
03-23-2008, 11:35 AM
I've been lurking on the gleemax boards and reading the "sneak peek" stuff from WoTC. There is a huge shake up underway. I don't like a lot of what I have read about the new FR. It appears they are going to mess with elvish history just to make it fit the new game system. This is happening to other places and things across the FR.

Over at Dragons Landing we have a conversation going with WoTC by e-mail. They are answering some of our questions. I don't know when they will reply to our questions but here is the link to our site if you want to listen to the podcast.

http://www.dragonslanding.com/dli/

Grimwell
03-24-2008, 11:48 PM
I'm all for the changes, but I'm a fan of darker worlds and the points of light concept. For me, FR has always had too many heroes and my friends at the table weren't needed in a setting like that.

That's my bias though, but I will admit that this will get me to at least look at FR when it's updated and out.

Kilrex
03-27-2008, 10:40 PM
I'm all for the changes, but I'm a fan of darker worlds and the points of light concept. For me, FR has always had too many heroes and my friends at the table weren't needed in a setting like that.

The fact that there were so many heroes is the only thing I don't like about the Realms. But they need to keep selling books, so ehh. I just pretend they do not exist when running a goodish aligned group. I always liked that the FR setting took a very serious outlook and making it darker would be nice.

Tony Misfeldt
03-31-2008, 06:22 PM
The fact that there were so many heroes is the only thing I don't like about the Realms. But they need to keep selling books, so ehh. I just pretend they do not exist when running a goodish aligned group. I always liked that the FR setting took a very serious outlook and making it darker would be nice.

My problem was never so much that there were too many heroes in Forgotten Realms. In fact, I ran an FR campaign for 5 years without my players ever meeting Drizzt Do'Urden, King Azoun, Elminster, Lady Alustriel, Dove Falconhand, Alias and Dragonbait, or any other really famous hero for that matter. Unfortunately there are just so damned many orderly societies in Faerun that it's very difficult to write any adventures set in those areas. Cormyr, The Moonshaes, Waterdeep, and many other places are much too safe to be good places for adventuring (unless you're planning on running an evil campaign with the PCs being the villains, but that opens up a whole new can of worms with a whole new set of problems). Like I said before, I'll have to wait and see.

ryan973
07-25-2008, 02:35 PM
I like the idea for a an apocoliptic even that ushers in a dark age for faruen. I am not for a 100 year jump or letting the writers at wizards ruin one of the best settings in my opinion to ever be created.

I have read soem of there exerts and a few teasers and most of the new stuff seems campy and stupid.

Of course i am not too worried becouse Edd Greenwood and RA Salvatore, Elaine Cunninham and a bunch of the others are all now goin to be working with Paizo on there new world.
So the spirit and flaver of the realms shall live on. Even if under a diffrent name.

michaeljearley
07-25-2008, 04:43 PM
I loved the realms exactly like they were. I'm open to development but I think they went to far. FR was the haven for the power games who wanted fanasty pumped up to extreme heights. From FR to the Planes. A +1 sword and armor under every farmers bed.
It wan't for everyone, but it was for me. I'll hold off makeing a full opinion until I read the book though.

fmitchell
07-25-2008, 04:57 PM
I'm not a big fan of FR -- heck, I've never read any of it -- but I still think it's stupid to introduce a cataclysm just to fit it into the new rules. Once again, the dogma of "Brand Recognition" trumps over storytelling or indeed logic. Of course, FR is a corporate property anyway, but it's still as stupid as Infinite Crisis and similar comic book events, and for a far less noble reason.

michaeljearley
07-25-2008, 06:00 PM
I'm not a big fan of FR -- heck, I've never read any of it -- but I still think it's stupid to introduce a cataclysm just to fit it into the new rules. Once again, the dogma of "Brand Recognition" trumps over storytelling or indeed logic. Of course, FR is a corporate property anyway, but it's still as stupid as Infinite Crisis and similar comic book events, and for a far less noble reason.

Agree'd. Like Salvatore couldn't have come up with something.

ryan973
07-28-2008, 02:15 PM
not even just that but there are many many areas of the realms still not done out. hell as far as i can tell we still have the better part of half the continent to explore.

agoraderek
07-28-2008, 05:47 PM
I'm all for the changes, but I'm a fan of darker worlds and the points of light concept. For me, FR has always had too many heroes and my friends at the table weren't needed in a setting like that.

That's my bias though, but I will admit that this will get me to at least look at FR when it's updated and out.

no offense, but this is somewhat beside the point. people who didnt like FR in the first place played somewhere else. the point, in my mind, anyway, is that there are a lot of people who LOVE the realms who are quite upset with the whole situation.

if WotC is going to alientate the people who have faithfully followed realmslore through the years to attract people who don't like the setting in the first place, well, that just seems to be the height of stupidity to me.

they should have just made a setting from scratch to fit their "points of light" concept, not totally destroyed an existing setting with a VERY rich and long history to fit it.

gdmcbride
07-29-2008, 05:20 AM
What really baffles me about the new edition of the Forgotten Realms is this... they are publishing so little of it.

Within sixty days of this post assuming WotC doesn't change its schedule, every dedicated FR RPG book that is going to see print for the next eight years (the estimated 4th edition life span) will be in print.

That number of books: 3.

Total page count: 544 pages.

That's it. I'm sure we'll see some support in Dragon and Dungeon. I'm sure some other books will mention FR from time to time. But still...

I actually kind of respect this. But it does seem an odd business decision. Aren't FR players and fans ready to shuck out more cash than this?

Gary

Valdar
07-29-2008, 10:04 AM
Within sixty days of this post assuming WotC doesn't change its schedule, every dedicated FR RPG book that is going to see print for the next eight years (the estimated 4th edition life span) will be in print.


I could only find a publishing schedule through 2009, and I'm assuming even that becomes incomplete as it reaches the end of the year- Have you found a press release or post from someone at Wizards that says that 3 books is it? I'd expect at least a monster manual and a line of adventures-

krownhunter07
07-29-2008, 01:36 PM
Personally, I'm a big fan of FR and enjoy the things I've seen so for. My wife would hardly ever let me run a game there, but she's excited now that it wont be as daunting as before (for her).

Also, just to point this out, every edition change but one has had a RSE tied to it to explain the changes... this isn't a new concept with 4e.

ryan973
07-29-2008, 03:17 PM
Personally, I'm a big fan of FR and enjoy the things I've seen so for. My wife would hardly ever let me run a game there, but she's excited now that it wont be as daunting as before (for her).

Also, just to point this out, every edition change but one has had a RSE tied to it to explain the changes... this isn't a new concept with 4e.


RSE ? Not sure what that stands for.

Regardless of any of that the fact remains that Forgotten Realms has a very loyal following of fans that have loved and saported the realms for a very very long time.

Forget for a moment many peoples feelings towards fourth and Wizards of the coast. Do you guys really think that it was a good idea to alter the Realms in this way?

Or is this just more of the i will defend fourth and wizards no matter what the argument is attitude.

gdmcbride
07-29-2008, 03:20 PM
I could only find a publishing schedule through 2009, and I'm assuming even that becomes incomplete as it reaches the end of the year- Have you found a press release or post from someone at Wizards that says that 3 books is it? I'd expect at least a monster manual and a line of adventures-

Bill Slavicsek announced this at GAMA this year. I think they only said it. I'm not sure they issued it in a press report. Regardless, one page I found that confirms the report is here:

http://www.gamegrene.com/node/893

I'm sure there are others if one cares to look. Still, confirming that these reports are not just a misstatement...what other FR RPG books are on the schedule for the rest of 2008 into 2009? The answer ... none.

There has also been extensive discussion of this plan on both ENWorld, rpg.net and paizo.com all which are frequented by WotC employees. So far no one has stepped up to dispute this plan as inaccurate or as being reconsidered.

So ... three Forgotten Realms books for 4.0.

I'll admit that the plan could change. But it seems unlikely that there will be any changes by the end of 2009 and perhaps beyond.

Gary

PS RSE = Realms Shattering Event. Yes, it happens so often it has a TLA.

ryan973
07-29-2008, 03:25 PM
PS RSE = Realms Shattering Event. Yes, it happens so often it has a TLA.



Thank you. Yes it has happened a alot but none ever like this. In fact i am hard pressed to think of a more drastic revision to any world. even dragonlance with all its apocolyptic goins ons was never altered this much.

Valdar
07-29-2008, 04:10 PM
Bill Slavicsek announced this at GAMA this year. I think they only said it. I'm not sure they issued it in a press report. Regardless, one page I found that confirms the report is here:

http://www.gamegrene.com/node/893



Aha- good info. At least there's some reasoning behind it- I do like the "GM's world" idea, in that you won't have to buy a new supplement that might contradict what you've done with the world already...

I do think it odd that they're giving every world equal shakes- I wasn't a big fan of FR, but it certainly deserves more treatment than Spelljammer...

Webhead
07-29-2008, 04:23 PM
...I do think it odd that they're giving every world equal shakes- I wasn't a big fan of FR, but it certainly deserves more treatment than Spelljammer...

For what it's worth, I always liked the concept of Spelljammer (D&D in space) but never read any of the books...and from what I gather from most folks, I've unwittingly done myself a great favor by not doing so...

krownhunter07
07-29-2008, 05:27 PM
Thank you. Yes it has happened a alot but none ever like this. In fact i am hard pressed to think of a more drastic revision to any world. even dragonlance with all its apocolyptic goins ons was never altered this much.

See, we don't really know 'how much' yet... the time jump is big... the changes, we shall see.

and I'm a fan of the Realms, D&D and RPG'ing in general. As with all things, we take what we're given and work with it from there.

Grimwell
08-01-2008, 01:15 AM
they should have just made a setting from scratch to fit their "points of light" concept, not totally destroyed an existing setting with a VERY rich and long history to fit it.
While that is very convenient for Wizards, it's actually a bad answer for the customer. Every time there has been an edition shift, some worlds have been left behind in terms of official support.

Which leaves folks asking for an "official" update to the new edition. When those cries are not answered, people get stabby. It's essentially a situation where they are damned no matter what they do.

In those situations the best thing you can do is make what you feel is the best solution and then go for it. Either way you are going to be ringed by people telling you that you made the wrong choice; but that's inevitable so you screen it out.

tesral
08-01-2008, 10:29 AM
You can't please all the people all the time. Then again I have never understood the deep seated need for people to have "official" supplements.

The whole "the world is having an upheaval because we are changing the rules" is getting old. However, it really only matters if you hew to the official material. So the need feeds the dissatisfaction. They create their own problem.

For myself? Meh, I don't use any official world. I have never had a world upheaval to explain a rule change of any kind. But all my rule changes have been subtle and I preserve the flavor of the world first. The rules bend to that.

Personally if I was them I wouldn't explain it. Give out a book of the world's leading NPCs with the adjusted stats and don't sweat it. No matter how they do it they will brown off at least half the Forgotten Realms fans.

Lizards makes far, far too big a deal over system and tying system and setting together. Making the metagame part and parcel of the game world. All they really manage to do is produce bad feelings and discussions like this one,

I think what Lizards doesn't realize is that while they might own the IP, they don't own the game. That belongs and has always belonged to the players. People get testy when you muck things up for no apparent reason. As we have well seen. Then again, people have their heart tied far to tightly to the actions of others they cannot control.

"If you depend on others for your happiness, you will be forever disappointed." -- The Tao of Phoenix (http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com/garden/tao.html)

krownhunter07
08-01-2008, 10:51 AM
See, one problem with that, is that WotC had seen that a large amount of fans steered clear of FR for similar reasons (too much lore, to many high level NPC's, this, that, the other, etc..)

Wanting to make it feel more accessible to a larger portion of the fan base isn't bad. That, on top of changes that would be hard to explain vs known canon, is why they made the changes they did.

I just hope it works out for the Realms, I rather like it myself.

ryan973
08-01-2008, 11:29 AM
Changing a game or settign to match those who dont like it is never the answer. They made fourth totally diffrent and it really apeal to the those who did not really liek D&D before. Now they are taking the most popular settign around and making changes to match those who did not like forgotten realms for those reasones. Its a bad move but whatever time will tell and the real fans will move on.

Webhead
08-01-2008, 03:19 PM
I supposed to really formulate some sort of reliable opinion on the subject, I have to imagine it in terms that would be meaningful to me. If instead of 4e "retconning" Forgotten Realms, it was 4e "retconning" Dark Sun, I would probably be a bit annoyed by major changes and weary of the product until I had an opportunity to research it further. I would take a "glass is half empty" approach and say "I liked Dark Sun as it was, so unless the new Dark Sun can prove to me that it is somehow better, I won't bother with it".

Upon the setting's release, I would take opportunities to read reviews, browse the books and discuss with friends before forming my final verdict. If the verdict came up good, I would probably invest and explore the possibilities, recognizing that it is "not the same Dark Sun, but has its own merits". If the verdict came up bad, it would be just another item on my "list of things to ignore".

Engar
08-01-2008, 04:14 PM
Do not even go there! Darksun must never be edited by WotC. I will ban them from my existence. That would be like France contracted to rebuild the US military.

Webhead
08-01-2008, 04:39 PM
Do not even go there! Darksun must never be edited by WotC. I will ban them from my existence. That would be like France contracted to rebuild the US military.

I hear ya...;)

To be truthful...I didn't really like most of the Dark Sun "conversions" that were done for 3e. It just didn't seem the same to me. I want my old 2e Dark Sun box set...

Valdar
08-01-2008, 05:16 PM
What sorts of things do you think they added to appeal to people who didn't like FR before (like myself)? Apart from the "DM's World" idea of leaving a lot of it undefined so you can create your own stuff, I haven't heard of any changes that would make me want to play. And I'm doing just fine with my campaign, in which the whole thing is the "DM's world"...

The only reason I'd want to get the new FR books is if I wanted to play a Spellsword, Genasi, or Drow I guess, but those last two are going to be pretty easy to get stats for (in fact, we have them now :D), so I guess it's down to Spellsword...

tesral
08-01-2008, 06:05 PM
What sorts of things do you think they added to appeal to people who didn't like FR before (like myself)? Apart from the "DM's World" idea of leaving a lot of it undefined so you can create your own stuff, I haven't heard of any changes that would make me want to play. And I'm doing just fine with my campaign, in which the whole thing is the "DM's world"...
.

OK, let me get this straight:

They change the Forgotten Realms to appeal to people that don't like forgotten Realms. -- What happens to the people that like it just fine? I guess they are out of luck. So they brown off the current customer to get new customers.

I thought the idea was to increase market share, not encourage turnover. I think the ghost of Ronnie Raygun is running their marketing department.

Dimthar
08-01-2008, 07:40 PM
If they don't actually want to create “additional Canon“ that will create apprehension in some DMs (never understood this) there is still a lot of room for them to create material for the new “Forgotten Realms Era”, I assume there is still Kara-Tur and Al-Qadim, also they may create a supplement just for the “Abeir” part.

Books describing geographical locations in the realms other than Faerun is still a possibility, so will see the direction they take.

As I said before, I don’t plan in playing in the NEW Realms, there is still a lot of “Old Realms” to be explored, and even if they didn’t do that big jump, my current budget does not permit a full “update” of my library.

.

agoraderek
08-01-2008, 08:59 PM
If they don't actually want to create “additional Canon“ that will create apprehension in some DMs (never understood this) there is still a lot of room for them to create material for the new “Forgotten Realms Era”, I assume there is still Kara-Tur and Al-Qadim, also they may create a supplement just for the “Abeir” part.

Books describing geographical locations in the realms other than Faerun is still a possibility, so will see the direction they take.

As I said before, I don’t plan in playing in the NEW Realms, there is still a lot of “Old Realms” to be explored, and even if they didn’t do that big jump, my current budget does not permit a full “update” of my library.

.

there are only three books slated for FR. the CS, the player's guide, and i presume, a monsters book. they have nothing else on the production schedule calendar through '09, so the earliest you'd see a fourth book would be '10, but i think they've made it clear that that all they're releasing are three books, period.

agoraderek
08-01-2008, 09:04 PM
See, one problem with that, is that WotC had seen that a large amount of fans steered clear of FR for similar reasons (too much lore, to many high level NPC's, this, that, the other, etc..)

Wanting to make it feel more accessible to a larger portion of the fan base isn't bad. That, on top of changes that would be hard to explain vs known canon, is why they made the changes they did.

I just hope it works out for the Realms, I rather like it myself.

and WotC has apparently NOT seen that a lot of people LIKE the realms as they are.

wanting to make it annoy the EXISTING base IS bad.

but then, the designers for 4e FR don't even seem to know that abier-toril is the full name for the realms AS IS, not two separate worlds, so why would i expect them to even understand faerun fans at all...

tesral
08-01-2008, 09:25 PM
but then, the designers for 4e FR don't even seem to know that abier-toril is the full name for the realms AS IS, not two separate worlds, so why would i expect them to even understand faerun fans at all...

"Out with the old, in with the new, is it better? Who cares boy it's different and that is what the American sheeple want boy different! How do we know? Why we told then they do! Now, be a good kid and buy a book or five."

Sigh, time to go to bed.

Grimwell
08-03-2008, 10:56 AM
I think it may be healthy for the discussion to have a few bonus points to chew on:



Internet/Online games typically see less than 10% of their audience communicate back to the company via the internet. D&D isn't an online game, does not require online access to play, and likely sees less than 5% of it's audience provide feedback to WotC online.
While having your visible minority giving you negative feedback is something to consider, the silent majority is still something to consider, so anecdotal "Everywhere I go, I see people hating on D&D and the FR treatment." is not enough reason to change anything.
Sometimes the right thing to do is to shift focus from your current customer base to a different one. It is painful, and you will hear howls over it, but that does not mean it's the worst path for your product, or your company's long term viability.
Don't expect the people who howl to act reasonable, or enjoy it. Nobody likes feeling like they are relegated to a second class of importance.
People who are fine/happy/excited by the changes are not sheeple as tesral suggests -- and frankly I'm tired of seeing anti-corporate/change folks plastered as mindless idiots my friend -- yes, I'm calling you out, but you have been calling out anyone who is supportive for months. Suck it up and consider that you are slapping a few of us with a trout on a regular basis. Perhaps you could consider a change in your own treatment of those around you?

Change is always painful, guarantees that you are going to alienate some folks, and can be very bad for your product. It can also be the best thing you have ever done for your product, and win you over some serious growth in the customer base.

With the changes being made to the Forgotten Realms, WotC is definitely betting on the positive benefits of change -- can we blame them? We can still pick up a metric ton of source material for the realms, developed over the span of 20 years (give or take) of production.

So we don't have to convert and upgrade with the new system and campaign environment; but we also don't have to sulk and strike out petulantly at people who do convert and like the new ideas.

/yawn (sorry, just tired of seeing the silly ranting again about how I'm a sheeple)

tesral
08-03-2008, 01:39 PM
Actually if you look at customer service doctrine. Every complaint you get is considered 99 you didn't get but were just as unhappy. If you don't listen, it will cost you. Conversely every compliment is 99 you didn't get. It works both ways.

The more I look at the various pieces I see a business decision behind 4e, not a viable gaming decision. It's a break from the OGL. Forry isn't better, it is different. Different was the reason.

And yes they consider you sheeple. You are the flock to be sheared. Your sole purpose in life is to give them money and say how wonderful it is. Marketing's look at you, not mine.

Dimthar
08-03-2008, 04:23 PM
What’s wrong with the world? I mean, none of us like it and still they want us to think it is the greatest thing in the world. A complete useless product, one would think that by know they know their customer base, and still they come up with this crap.

Geez!! Project Runway's Last Wednesday Dress was a disaster and still won!. OMG!

Hey! … pst! … What? … Dungeons? ….What Realms? …. PnPG?! Oops!

(Manly Voice) Hmmm I suppose I agree … you guys are totally right, specially about the New Forgotten Realms. I better go and sharp some tools.

.

Tony Misfeldt
08-05-2008, 04:00 PM
and WotC has apparently NOT seen that a lot of people LIKE the realms as they are.

wanting to make it annoy the EXISTING base IS bad.

but then, the designers for 4e FR don't even seem to know that abier-toril is the full name for the realms AS IS, not two separate worlds, so why would i expect them to even understand faerun fans at all...

Good point. I've been a fan of FR from Day 1. And there's much of The Realms that are left unexplored. All those huge stretches of land on the FR maps with no cities, towns, villages, ruins, etc marked down are only empty when the unimaginative DM is running the game. My FR has unmarked islands, city states, kingdomes, hidden ruins and temples not located on any published maps. I DMed a FR campaign for five years in 2e without my group ever meeting Elminster, King Azoun IV, Drizzt Do'Urden, Artemis Entreri, Manshoon, or any other major NPC. Alienating the existing fans in the hopes of aquiring new fans is bad business. After all, there's no garantee the the vidiots they're attempting to appeal to will even like the "New Forgotten Realms". Then they've lost the current, very large and lucrative, fanbase and not even aquire the new vidiot fanbase to fill the void.

I'm not saying that their gamble won't work, just that it's very risky, unnecessary, and could blow up in their faces.

tesral
08-05-2008, 09:49 PM
Anyone rememeber "The New Coke?"

'Nuff said.

Grimwell
08-06-2008, 09:03 AM
Anyone rememeber "The New Coke?"

'Nuff said.

Not nearly. That is a logical fallacy.

The Coca Cola company decided to change their recipe and replace what is now known as "Classic Coke" with "New Coke" to drive sales.

Instead of thriving, sales flopped horribly. New Coke was a failure.

Therefore, no company should ever try to replace their old product with a new one for they will fail as New Coke did.
Hate on 4E and the changes to the realms all you want; but don't use faulty logic to imply that Wizards is up for predetermined doom because they made these changes. It's far more balanced to say "No sir, I don't like it and won't buy it." as you have done repeatedly.

That consistency, and the value you put forth in your positive comments on other parts of the forum will go a lot further in terms of showing who you are and influencing others than dropping bad logic.

Totally redesigning a product from the ground up is always a risk. It can go great, or it can go horribly. An example we can all relate to (since we are using computers to be here virtually):

Microsoft rebuilds their "Windows" line of operating system every so many years and eliminates support for prior editions. Sometimes that redesign is fantastic and the upgrade is well worth the effort. Windows XP was a much better operating system for the home user than Windows Millennium Edition. It sold much better for Microsoft than the prior OS, and was a successful replacement for a prior product.

Windows Vista has not sold well as a successful replacement to Windows XP. The new OS introduced changes that have been seen as annoying in order to "solve" security issues, and failed to take root with the consumer audience. It is not selling as well as XP and Microsoft is hard at work at their next OS that will replace Vista as soon as they can launch it properly.

It's the quality of the OS, not the fact that they are relaunching something that already works, that determines the fates of each new OS from Microsoft.

4th edition, and WotC's treatment of the Forgotten Realms will live or die by it's adherence to quality and fun in the eyes of the general gaming audience. The fact that they dared make these changes does not doom the products, or guarantee success. How it lands with the audience does.

boulet
08-06-2008, 11:47 AM
I think Tesral wasn't out of line on this.

You may compare a new edition of a game with a new OS version. It makes sense : they can both be seen as tools with a purpose, and user experience influences their commercial success. For a setting line of book I think the "new coke" analogy is adequate : it's not about functionality or user friendliness in this case. It's more about the fluff and the atmosphere... a matter of taste IMO.

ryan973
08-06-2008, 11:59 AM
It does not take a rocket scientist to see that no matter what the point is some people will do anything to defend anything Fourth.

As for Fourgotten Realms, I just dont think the guys at Wizards have enouph talent to improve a setting. Just look at there published aventures.

just an opinion

tesral
08-06-2008, 12:08 PM
Not nearly. That is a logical fallacy.
The Coca Cola company decided to change their recipe and replace what is now known as "Classic Coke" with "New Coke" to drive sales.

Instead of thriving, sales flopped horribly. New Coke was a failure.

Therefore, no company should ever try to replace their old product with a new one for they will fail as New Coke did.


Actually I was implying that it is that kind of risk, not that it must fail.

Coke failed to take into account the vast numbers of people that like their product as it was in seeking new drinkers who didn't like their product. In that respect the parallel is pretty good. They alienated the old market (A majority market at that) trying to get the new minority market. A total flop.

Forry is the "New D&D" and as the market is much smaller I don';t see the kind of reaction Coke got in scale. We are not going to see public protests over the matter. But I am seeing a similar reaction among the fans.

Windows? I switched to Linux years ago.

gdmcbride
08-06-2008, 09:26 PM
There is a difference between the Classic Coke and New Coke debacle. 4th edition is selling well and in fact far better than 3.5 'Classic Coke' did before its release.

If you go over to Amazon.com and look at the top ten RPG sellers, #1 through #9 are D&D 4th edition books.

And number #10 is a Zelda computer gaming guide that arguably shouldn't be in this category. You have to go all the way to item #22 to find a non-D&D product (Hunter: the Vigil if anyone cares). Before fourth edition, this list was crawling with non-D&D product (Dark Heresy? nWOD? Exalted?). Now, its a D&D only show. This matches with some anecdotal evidence from a few local game shops I chat with frequently.

Will that persist? We will see. Is it telling that after more than two months, the new edition of D&D has taken over RPG sales. Oh yeah.

Of course the new Pathfinder Campaign Setting hc is in the top 50 and climbing. And I have seen Pathfinder Classic Monsters Revisited in a Barnes and Noble store. Hmmm...

Gary

Volcatius
08-06-2008, 10:24 PM
I myself simply do not know enough to determine if i like the 4th edition FR or not. Economicly, it seems to be a classic corporate move, similar to doing a new sequel to a succsessful movie, not to tell the story but to make (hopefully) boatloads of money likes it's prequel. It's actions like that tend to destroy good things, an update for the sake of something to sell seems like the fast track to me finding a new hobby. However, if they expand upon the histroy of faerun and add a hundred years to it, and actually churn out some quality work, I'll be fine.

One a topic closer to my heart, the gaming aspect of this new faerun, I will likly get the books, and if i dont like the new fluff, i'll use the rules and just keep the setting in it's 3.5 state. Im DM, i can do that. Fluff is what you make of it, the new setting books will likely end up sitting beside my 3.5 material as the rules, with the 3.5 stuff as the history. It's an expensive way to appease my players who love (despite my own reservations about it) 4th edition, but it will keep everyone in my gaming group happy.

All of that said, i think that some people may be (un)presently surprised, and some may be right, but it all depends on your game. I have never used the whole of the faerun they have presented, as it's presented, and if you have, congratulations. There are plenty of ways to finagle a system to get what you wantout of it, it takes some more work, but in the end i thinks it's worth it.

Dimthar
08-07-2008, 01:08 PM
Ravenloft 3.X did not appeal to almost all previous Ravenloft AD&D fans because (opposite to what is happening with the FR) there was no change other than adapting the game to D20 rules. The world was practically the same as it was after the Grand Conjunction.

For a GM with a good collection of Ravenloft books, there was nothing new other than game mechanics, and for a lot of us who buy the books for the "Fluff" not the "Rules (New Feats, Prestige Classes, Magic Items, etc.)" there was no need to "update" the material even if our campaigns did update to 3.X rules.

There was so much published about Faerun in 3.X that there was little room for another supplement book.

Some people were complaining about WotC ready to "Re-Hash" his old material. Well, that is not the case for Forgotten Realms!, so any new "Fluff Book" will be NEW, so at least you are not paying twice/three times for the same thing.

.

Thriondel Half-Elven
08-07-2008, 10:16 PM
I love the Realms. Though i never got to play in them much. I don't have a problem with the changes that are being made/ were made.

I just plan to play in the "old" Realms for a while. I mean i paid $40 for the campaign book, why not get my use out of it.

Dimthar
08-08-2008, 10:47 AM
I just plan to play in the "old" Realms for a while. I mean i paid $40 for the campaign book, why not get my use out of it.

My guess and "bet" is that for those of us who will use the "OLD Realms Fluff" but 4E, getting the "Player's Guide to the Realms" will be a better choice than the Campaign Setting.

.

Valdar
08-08-2008, 11:00 AM
It does not take a rocket scientist to see that no matter what the point is some people will do anything to defend anything Fourth.


And plenty more people will do anything to attack it...

tesral
08-08-2008, 11:25 AM
If you go over to Amazon.com and look at the top ten RPG sellers, #1 through #9 are D&D 4th edition books.


That is worrying. And not for the expected reason. At least around here it is not flying off the shelves of the LFGS. It rather implies that the majority of sales have shifted to on line sources.

I strongly suggest everyone run down to the LFGS and buy something. Dice, minis, even a thrice cursed, pus oozing Fourth Ed book. :angel:

I like my local gaming store, I want it to stay there.

Back to our totally speculative topic until the book is actually released.

Grimwell
08-08-2008, 01:21 PM
The FLGS has been in a bad place for years. When 4.0 released I had the choice of getting it for full price in a store, or at 50% at Amazon. How do you argue with that?

Farcaster
08-08-2008, 03:12 PM
How do you argue with that?

Sadly, with a sagging economy and a dollar that is loosing buying power at an alarming rate, I have to go with the most competitive price. However, I feel good supporting Amazon. I like what they do as a company. I like the innovation they have brought and continue to bring to the web community. And, at the end of the day, I'm still supporting the publisher and authors of the books I buy.

Okay, sorry for the divergence.

:focus:

Valdar
08-08-2008, 03:28 PM
Amazon is good if you know exactly what you want, or for hard-to-find books, but for things you want to browse, they aren't going to replace the FLGS any time soon. Even when there's a photo, I want to see the actual dice and minis before I buy them, or I invariably am unhappy with what I get in the mail.

Also, if I want something right away, or close to its release date, Amazon is right out. Some people waited a month for their rulebooks- both 3e and 4e.

So, long and short, there's nothing at my table that I bought from Amazon or other large online retailer.

Anyway, sorry for the continued derail. My take on the 4e FR is the same as the 3e FR: I'll mine the supplements for character options, monsters, and treasure, but I'll stick with Greyhawk or my own world for an actual campaign.

Dimthar
08-21-2008, 02:42 PM
Back to our totally speculative topic until the book is actually released.

So the Book is out! Anyone got it? Let the "Rant" begin ...

tesral
08-21-2008, 08:47 PM
So the Book is out! Anyone got it? Let the "Rant" begin ...

Wait one minute please. (Getting into bunker.):behindsofa:

Farcaster
08-21-2008, 09:33 PM
I just received my copy today. I haven't had a chance to read much of it yet though.

Thriondel Half-Elven
08-21-2008, 09:57 PM
haven't had a chance to look at it yet. dont own it though. i want to look thorugh it first. still playing 3.5 and have FR for that. but will check it out for sure

Grimwell
08-24-2008, 12:12 AM
Ooh! Forgot!

/shopping tomorrow

Woot!

tesral
08-24-2008, 01:40 AM
Hmm the book is out and a great and mighty silence descends.

Do I hear the sounds of eyeballs tracking, or is that a stunned and shocked silence?

We shall see.

Farcaster
08-24-2008, 02:18 AM
I have it, but I have only had a chance to read a little of it. What I am missing from this book so far is a really good walk through of the intermediate one hundred years. Without a good overview, I'm having to digest and look for little nuggets of history throughout the entire book. Not too long ago, Wizards posted some snippets of history that I assumed where going to be expanded on in this book, but there's no time-line anywhere in the book. So, that's where I am with it. I'm a bit non plussed, but I have only just begun reading the specific realms information.

Thriondel Half-Elven
08-24-2008, 03:03 PM
i got to flip through it. but didnt read much. doesn't look bad. i think people are afraid of change. Change could be good or bad but people don't want to take the risk. and i don't blame them.

if you like 3rd edition FR then by all means play that one. even if you use the 4th edition rules

Dimthar
08-24-2008, 04:04 PM
I have it, but I have only had a chance to read a little of it.

Questions:

1) Any New Races or Classes? or are they will be in the Player's Guide next month?

2) What happend with:
- Kara-Tur
- Al-Qadim

Thanks for any input.

.

Malruhn
08-24-2008, 04:42 PM
I recall the exact same arguments being used when AD&D came on line... and then when they threatened to change Grayhawk for 3.0.

"Whadaya mean that the rules are in two huge hard-bound books? And another one for monsters?!?! I ain't changin' fer nuthin!"

"Whadaya mean they're changin' the rules of the game? I got's me over 100 pages of house-rules, so there ain't no way I'ma gonna change!!"

It's just more of the same.

ronpyatt
08-25-2008, 10:50 PM
Just got the books, and I like what I've read. So far, Loudwater is nicely setup. Lots of adventure hooks. I could get into this FR game world. Spellscarred are a nice addition. Still reading, though.

Webhead
08-25-2008, 11:13 PM
...2) What happend with:
- Kara-Tur
- Al-Qadim

Thanks for any input.

I'm curious about Al-Qadim as well (I've still got several of the 2e boxed sets).

Grimwell
08-26-2008, 08:56 AM
I picked the new FR campaign guide up and read through it yesterday. My overall response is "Meh." but not due to anything related to 4th Edition to be honest.

I had hoped that the radical shifts that were hinted at to make room for 4E concepts would really change the setting and make it much more in need of heroes. What I found is a catalog that covers many places in the Realms and demonstrates that it's still heavily populated by scads of people and really isn't much in the way of a "points of light" setting because there are too many points.

On the bright side, if you have always known and loved the Realms, things are going to be pretty good for you! You will have lots of notes about how each place has changed, who's in power, etc. -- or at least enough of said notes to adapt your campaign for this new timeline. My disappointment above relates directly to the fact that I've never found the Realms to really need another party of heroes -- so it definitely reflects my personal tastes. If yours are different, you might enjoy this.

The hardest shift I think people will have to absorb is the 4E changes. A new continent, multiple changes to the existing one... while they really are not game or setting breakers, they are changes and can make people stabby.

On a more foundataional level, I didn't like the structure of the book. Chapter One kicks off not with a discussion about what has changed and what makes the Realms a great place for adventure, but instead with the adventure kickoff location noted above, Loudwater. It's well done and could easily be pulled into non-FR campaigns; but it's a hard slap of "Here, play with this!"

New GM's to the Realms are given something to play with before they are really given an idea of what the Realms is, and why it's fun to play there. Existing GM's may not have it so bad; but this first chapter really does not address their concerns or needs either... I feel it would have made a better appendix and a primer on changing old campaigns, or starting new ones in the Realms would have been a better start.

The rest of the book does hit on the meat of things: adventureing, locales, power groups, etc. -- and really reminds me of the 2E FR campaign book (the last one I ever read), which is a good thing. It's not the sort of primer on GM'ing in the Realms that I had hoped for; but it's definitely familiar and will probably resonate well with the existing audience. If you want to know what's happened to X, the answer is there. Not in great detail, but the notes cover things enough to get you started.

Which is my beef with the book I suppose. There isn't enough information about running a game in the Realms. What makes it special? What are the hooks that really work with the setting? Why are heroes needed? Instead it's a catalog of what's already there and has highest utility only for folks already well versed in the things that make the Realms special.

YMWDV -=- but I think this one is a dust collector for my purposes; even if it's a good buy for existing FR groups.

Last point: I don't see people having fun making their 3.X E games fit in. The time line took a hard (but plausible) shift; and it makes much more sense to wrap things up at their own pace, knowing the future to come in detail; than to try some time-warp thing. Things have changed enough that jumping characters forward is going to really break the dynamics of who they were up big time.

tesral
08-26-2008, 11:10 AM
Last point: I don't see people having fun making their 3.X E games fit in. The time line took a hard (but plausible) shift; and it makes much more sense to wrap things up at their own pace, knowing the future to come in detail; than to try some time-warp thing. Things have changed enough that jumping characters forward is going to really break the dynamics of who they were up big time.

That is the whole point of 4e, we are not 3e, no OGL.

A freind of mine attended the 4e rah rah meeting at Gencon. His report is that they all but admitted that the OGL was the main reason for all the changes you see. There was no game reason, it was all business.

ronpyatt
08-26-2008, 03:00 PM
That is the whole point of 4e, we are not 3e, no OGL.

A freind of mine attended the 4e rah rah meeting at Gencon. His report is that they all but admitted that the OGL was the main reason for all the changes you see. There was no game reason, it was all business.

That's clever. They did a bang up job for just business reasons. One can hope business reasons inspire more such production.

Grimwell
08-26-2008, 06:06 PM
Aye, I do not mean to say anything negative about 4E when I imply that it's probably best not to "jump" your campaign forward in the timeline. It's awkward from a GM'ing perspective. I don't see anything wrong with 4E itself, or 4E Realms (other than it's just not a setting for me... the system and setup aren't bad at all).

Further, I don't care what the motive is/was. I like it. That's all that matters when I'm spending my cash -- am I getting value (that I perceive) out of it? In the case of 4E I am.

tesral
08-26-2008, 06:36 PM
That's clever. They did a bang up job for just business reasons. One can hope business reasons inspire more such production.

Suit yourself. I'm not drinking the koolade.

agoraderek
08-26-2008, 11:11 PM
lots of detailed, well thought out stuff.


however, as a fan of the realms since day one (actually, greenwood's first article in dragon #36 - i think it was 36, it's been a while...), the new book does not even come close to doing the realms justice. i would call it "the setting formerly known as faerun".

it just has the feel of being written by (mostly) people who really, REALLY hated the forgotten realms, and didn't want to have to deal with the fact that a lot of the realms IS the history and backstory. i get the impression they would have been better off just writing a brand new setting, instead of slapping the name "forgotten realms" on a product because it is a familiar name to gamers.

by and large (and i know this is anecdotal) i've found most positive responses to this CS is from people that really had issues with the forgotten realms, and most negative responses are from people who have actually been running realsm games for a while.

but, if you didn't like the realms much to begin with, it's worth a look, as it is a setting, and is functional, and you gotta set a game someplace....

Webhead
08-27-2008, 09:18 AM
...i get the impression they would have been better off just writing a brand new setting, instead of slapping the name "forgotten realms" on a product because it is a familiar name to gamers...

By slapping the "Forgotten Realms" label on it, WotC promises to sell ten times more books than if it were billed as a "new and original" game setting...and there's the problem. Plus, it allows them to print future supplement books with "Forgotten Realms" printed on the cover, which guarantees even greater sales.


...and you gotta set a game someplace....

Generica. A great place full of adventure and with very little required upkeep. :)

Grimwell
08-27-2008, 09:23 AM
Suit yourself. I'm not drinking the koolade.

Yes, we know that. Does this repetitive affirmation help this discussion about the Forgotten Realms in any way shape or form though?

tesral
08-27-2008, 10:06 AM
Yes, we know that. Does this repetitive affirmation help this discussion about the Forgotten Realms in any way shape or form though?

Does the above?

We see the continued policy of dumping the old customer in favor of the new. Agoraderek likely has the matter well defined. If you don't like 3.5 and Forgotten Realms, then 4.0 Forgotten Realms is the place for you. By deduction it seems that if you liked the game as it was or the Realms as it was, tough luck.

I've yet to see any of the Fanatical Forgotten Realms Fans weigh in. Either they are not buying the book or they are still in stunned shock.

Still waiting....

Farcaster
08-27-2008, 10:42 AM
I wouldn't call myself a "Forgotten Realms Fanatic," but I do use that campaign setting basically exclusively for my campaigns. I also enjoy their fantasy novel lines -- at least the less recent ones. I haven't chimed in much because I simply haven't finished reading the new campaign setting. In many regards, I agree with what Grimwell was saying. I too expected a much more drastic change. At this point, I've made it through a little over half the book. The one thing that really, really detracts from this product for me is the lack of a cohesive "net change" log, if you will pardon a programmer's way of thinking. I don't like that to get a bigger picture of what has happened in the intervening hundred years, I have to pick through the history that's locked away in the various city/region details. I also am slightly annoyed that some details, like the particulars of spell scars for instance, are squirreled away in the Players Guide, which comes out a month later.

As to my feelings on what they've done to the Realms. Like I said, it's not nearly as extreme as I was thinking it was going to be. And frankly, I think of it a bit differently than does Tesral. I would feel that Forgotten Realms wasn't being supported if there hadn't been an update. The 3rd edition state of the Realms just wouldn't work for the drastic changes to the nature of magic in 4th. They also needed to update the Realms to explain the appearance of core races hitherforth rarely seen in the Realms.

And, as I said at the beginning of this thread some time ago, I like the idea of exploring a Forgotten Realms much changed. The stated goal of the developers at the onset was to recapture a sense of wonder about a campaign setting that has been around for decades. I think they accomplished that. As to whether they truly documented it well enough to help the typical DM accomplish that, I'm not 100% sure they did. They did provide a very good framework to work from though.

Dimthar
08-27-2008, 12:58 PM
Generica. A great place full of adventure and with very little required upkeep. :)

Funny, in my first campaign, the capital's name was: "Ciudad Tipica" (Typical City).

.

Webhead
08-27-2008, 02:00 PM
Funny, in my first campaign, the capital's name was: "Ciudad Tipica" (Typical City).

.

From my earliest adventures as a DM, I took to naming my "world" Generica because it was a "build-as-you-go" kind of thing. The world was shaped from what I required of it for my adventures. Things came into existence as the demand for them was realized.

Dark Sun was the one "break" from that tradition, but even then I had to make my own maps as I didn't have the official ones.

Oddly, I still have one of the large campaign maps from one of the 2e Forgotten Realms boxed sets, but not the books themselves. I remember using it for ideas on how to shape certain regions of Generica, but that is pretty much the extent to which I used FR in my games.

Edit: I also recall the occasional reference in my campaigns to a legendary city called Place. Anytime the PCs asked anyone for directions on how to reach the city, the best they ever got was "It's halfway between Here and There", which were two other exceedingly elusive locations, though they did stumble across There at one point. ;)

Thriondel Half-Elven
08-27-2008, 10:05 PM
however, as a fan of the realms since day one (actually, greenwood's first article in dragon #36 - i think it was 36, it's been a while...), the new book does not even come close to doing the realms justice. i would call it "the setting formerly known as faerun".

it just has the feel of being written by (mostly) people who really, REALLY hated the forgotten realms, and didn't want to have to deal with the fact that a lot of the realms IS the history and backstory. i get the impression they would have been better off just writing a brand new setting, instead of slapping the name "forgotten realms" on a product because it is a familiar name to gamers.

by and large (and i know this is anecdotal) i've found most positive responses to this CS is from people that really had issues with the forgotten realms, and most negative responses are from people who have actually been running realsm games for a while.

but, if you didn't like the realms much to begin with, it's worth a look, as it is a setting, and is functional, and you gotta set a game someplace....

i agree. i love the FR (not since day one. only started RPGs with 3.5) and i concur with what you said about just slapping the name on a new product becasue of familiarity.i think it is just another marketing (money making) thing:(

Jerushalaim
09-01-2008, 04:46 AM
Wulfgar had a deep tie to Luskan. That tie was severed with the death of his wife Delly in The Two Swords from The Hunters Blade Trilogy. I think the friend he was referring to was Captain Deudermont of The Sea Sprite. He's also a very dear friend of Drizzt's, and his business as a pirate hunter often brings him into port in Luskan. {...}

I think so. Forgive my english (it's a bit rusty), yet I was wondering about some characters of Salvatore's books. I've read all his Drizzt's saga, and I love particularly Jarlaxle and Artemis Entreri (yes, bad boys! ^^).
Who will travel to us across a century? That's the question.
I've some ideas I would like to share with you.
Artemis Entreri. In the "The Sellswords" we've appreciated the mysterious side-effect of his vampiric knife: his skin became pale, his aging slowed down. Probably he will be still alive.
Athrogate. At the end of "Road of the Patriarch" we learned that in someway he could be immortal (or almost); however he's a dwarf and the life of a dwarf could last more than four centuries...
Bruenor Battlehammer. I've no idea of the real age of Bruenor. Certainly it was over 300 and so, if he's still alive, he should be very very old. I mean for dwarves standards, too.
Cadderly. He was becoming young again in his last appearance on a book of Salvatore. The most powerful cleric of Faerun (in spite of being chained to a lesser deity) could be survived to aging, as his wonderful monk wife.
Cattibrie Battlehammer. Spells apart, she must be dead. Completely? I mean, a part of her should be living. Maybe a son or a daughter with dark skin, white hair and a celebrity dad ;)
Jarlaxle. He's alive. A Faerun without Jarlaxle is like a Faerun without Elminster... I mean the vanishing of Mr Bregan Daerthe could provoke political cataclysm more over what we've seen with Mystra's defeat! ^^;;;
Pikel Bouldershoulders. Surely still alive. And I bet my boots that this crazy dwarven druid was not get crazier by the death of Mystra! XD
Regis "Rumblebelly". Probably dead (It was a character that never had a big appeal).

Well, this is enough for discussion. There are so many other characters, but I cannot remember all their names! :D

Grimwell
09-01-2008, 10:54 AM
That's a pretty cool idea, listing former characters in the Realms and their (possible) current state. I'm not versed enough to even try this, but I encourage others to! There are a lot of interesting personalities in the Realms (to steal and plunder for other games!).

:)

Tony Misfeldt
09-02-2008, 02:41 PM
I think so. Forgive my english (it's a bit rusty), yet I was wondering about some characters of Salvatore's books. I've read all his Drizzt's saga, and I love particularly Jarlaxle and Artemis Entreri (yes, bad boys! ^^).
Who will travel to us across a century? That's the question.
I've some ideas I would like to share with you.
Artemis Entreri. In the "The Sellswords" we've appreciated the mysterious side-effect of his vampiric knife: his skin became pale, his aging slowed down. Probably he will be still alive.
He might still be alive, but I doubt he'd be a major player anymore. He'll probably be like Pasha Basadoni in Servant Of The Shard, a whithered old man resting on his past laurels. He may, however, have a brood of short, hairy footed offspring taking over the family business.


Athrogate. At the end of "Road of the Patriarch" we learned that in someway he could be immortal (or almost); however he's a dwarf and the life of a dwarf could last more than four centuries...
I agree with this assesment. Just being a dwarf makes him likely to have survived the last hundred years. Add to that whatever magic keeps him young and verile when he should be whithered with age, and he's likely to be a major player in future novels/games.


Bruenor Battlehammer. I've no idea of the real age of Bruenor. Certainly it was over 300 and so, if he's still alive, he should be very very old. I mean for dwarves standards, too.
I think Bruenor might have been younger than 300 at the end of The Orc King. I mean, his beard hadn't even grown in when Mithril Hall fell to Shimmergloom and his duergar minions. That made him young even by human standards. But I agree with you that he'd be old. Not old to the point of being feeble, but his fiery red hair would certainly had turned to grey.


Cadderly. He was becoming young again in his last appearance on a book of Salvatore. The most powerful cleric of Faerun (in spite of being chained to a lesser deity) could be survived to aging, as his wonderful monk wife.
While he was becoming young again in his last appearance in Passage To Dawn, he was nearly 30 (real age, not physical age) at the time. It's certainly possible that he'd still be alive, but he'd be more of an advisor than an active participant in any future campaigns. He could certainly Raise and Reserect slain characters, and woe to anyone who should attack The Spirit Soaring, but I doubt he'd be up for going out to slay evildoers. Heck, the twins are both likely dead of old age by now. His grandchildren could possibly be heroic adventurers though.
'quote=Jerushalaim;45323]
Cattibrie Battlehammer. Spells apart, she must be dead. Completely? I mean, a part of her should be living. Maybe a son or a daughter with dark skin, white hair and a celebrity dad ;)
[/quote] Don't forget incredibly keen mind and amazing fighting prowess! That's assuming she and Drizzt were even able to concieve in the first place. If I recall, there was speculation in The Orc King that Cattibrie's injuries had rendered her incapable of reproducing. But if the clerics were wrong, or if Cadderly came along and cast a far more potent healing spell than Stumpet Rakingclaw could ever hope to cast, then I personally hope Bob writes them an entire brood of adventuring offspring. Perhaps a priestess of Eilestrae or a druid of Mielikki, a ranger, a rogue, and a mage. But Cattibrie herself is mostlikely dead.


Jarlaxle. He's alive. A Faerun without Jarlaxle is like a Faerun without Elminster... I mean the vanishing of Mr Bregan Daerthe could provoke political cataclysm more over what we've seen with Mystra's defeat! ^^;;; I agree with you here as well. Jarlaxle has been described as "The Ultimate Survivor". Surely someone who'd earned such a nickname would have found a way to save himself from the cataclysm. Perhaps by opening a gate between Toril and another Prime Material Plane (Krynn or Greyhawk, for example).


Pikel Bouldershoulders. Surely still alive. And I bet my boots that this crazy dwarven druid was not get crazier by the death of Mystra! XD Again we agree. And don't forget his brother Ivan! After all, somebody has to keep Pikel out of trouble.


Regis "Rumblebelly". Probably dead (It was a character that never had a big appeal). I agree that the character is likely dead. Halflings have slightly longer lifespans than humans, but not by much. I disagree on the point of his popularity though, he was alot of fun and the perfect hobbit (that's right, I said hobbit! Deal with it!)


Well, this is enough for discussion. There are so many other characters, but I cannot remember all their names! :D

How about King Azoun V? He was just a baby at the time.

Farcaster
09-02-2008, 03:02 PM
I think Bruenor might have been younger than 300 at the end of The Orc King. I mean, his beard hadn't even grown in when Mithril Hall fell to Shimmergloom and his duergar minions. That made him young even by human standards. But I agree with you that he'd be old. Not old to the point of being feeble, but his fiery red hair would certainly had turned to grey.

I can confirm that Bruenor is dead as of 1485 as that is called out in the campaign guide. Interestingly, Obould is still around and is now an "exarch".
While he was becoming young again in his last appearance in Passage To Dawn, he was nearly 30 (real age, not physical age) at the time. It's certainly possible that he'd still be alive, but he'd be more of an advisor than an active participant in any future campaigns. He could certainly Raise and Reserect slain characters, and woe to anyone who should attack The Spirit Soaring, but I doubt he'd be up for going out to slay evildoers. Heck, the twins are both likely dead of old age by now. His grandchildren could possibly be heroic adventurers though.


Jarlaxle has been described as "The Ultimate Survivor". Surely someone who'd earned such a nickname would have found a way to save himself from the cataclysm.

Yep, Jaraxle is still around and has a writeup in the 4e Realms.


How about King Azoun V? He was just a baby at the time.
Dead. His son is now ruler. His name escapes me at the moment, and I don't have the campaign guide here with me.

Tony Misfeldt
09-02-2008, 10:50 PM
How about King Azoun V? He was just a baby at the time.



Dead. His son is now ruler. His name escapes me at the moment, and I don't have the campaign guide here with me.

I figured as much. I thought that a silly question after I wrote it, as hed be over 100 years old by then. Here's some others I've thought of since.

Alias Of Westgate: In The Wyvern's Spur, Flattery was hundreds of years old. As Alias was created using the same method, wouldn't she too be ageless? She may have been killed during her time as an adventurer, but I don't know if she can grow old and die like a normal human.

Dragonbait: I don't know how long saurials live, so he may or may not still be alive.

Grypht: Again, how long do saurials live? Even if they live only slightly longer than humans, Grypht is a very powerful wizard. He may have found magical meens of staying young.

Liriel Banre: She's a drow elf, and a fairly young one at that (I think she's only about 50 in The Windwalker). Also, what happened to her two elvish companions from that novel? The lythari ranger and the "gold elf" thief/mage? They'd both live for centuries, did they survive the cataclysm? Did Liriel survive the Spell Plague? While she is a powerful wizard, she's also a cleric of Eilistrae. Her deity's favor might have spared her from its effects.

agoraderek
09-06-2008, 12:11 AM
Perhaps a priestess of Eilestrae...

um, she's been killed off. sorry. no eilestrae any more...

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
09-06-2008, 06:09 PM
Unless Artemis Entreri was killed in some way, he is assuredly alive due to his absorption of a Shade through his vampiric dagger. It was presumed, due to the absorption, that his lifespan increased 500-700 years(no one knows for sure). I read this somewhere, but where, i do not know... but i do know beyond a doubt that i read it. He also regressed back 10 years in apparent age. Which i concluded benefited him physically as if he truly was 10 years younger.

Anyone else on these boards know where i read this from?

Now that we are 100 years in the future?, it wouldnt surprise me if he is again working with Jaraxle. As a human, doubtful he would know how to handle his extended life so he would feel compelled to go back to that Drow, Jarlaxle's, business; so I suspect that Artemis Entreri will be making an appearance again in an upcoming novel.

I anxiously await updated reports from others on these boards.

Thoth-Amon

Thriondel Half-Elven
09-09-2008, 06:11 PM
i recently looked through the book and i didn't see anything about races like in the 3.5 book.

is there only the core PHB races. what happened to all the variations

Valdar
09-09-2008, 06:14 PM
i recently looked through the book and i didn't see anything about races like in the 3.5 book.

is there only the core PHB races. what happened to all the variations

Those go in the Player's guide, due out this month:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/218587200

They've already posted excerpts of Drow and Genasi-

Tony Misfeldt
09-10-2008, 05:25 PM
um, she's been killed off. sorry. no eilestrae any more...
Just one more reason I won't be switching to 4th. But then again in D&D, death is rarely a career ending injury.

Thriondel Half-Elven
09-10-2008, 06:36 PM
Those go in the Player's guide, due out this month:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/218587200

They've already posted excerpts of Drow and Genasi-

oh ok. common sense thriondel.:biggrin: can't wait to look through it

Thriondel Half-Elven
09-10-2008, 06:42 PM
just looked through the excerpts. the Swordmage looks awesome!

tesral
09-10-2008, 06:53 PM
In D&D, death is rarely a career ending injury.

Snerk. :lol:

Jerushalaim
09-11-2008, 04:31 AM
Unless Artemis Entreri was killed in some way, he is assuredly alive due to his absorption of a Shade through his vampiric dagger. It was presumed, due to the absorption, that his lifespan increased 500-700 years(no one knows for sure). I read this somewhere, but where, i do not know... but i do know beyond a doubt that i read it. He also regressed back 10 years in apparent age. Which i concluded benefited him physically as if he truly was 10 years younger.
{...} Now that we are 100 years in the future?, it wouldnt surprise me if he is again working with Jaraxle. As a human, doubtful he would know how to handle his extended life so he would feel compelled to go back to that Drow, Jarlaxle's, business; so I suspect that Artemis Entreri will be making an appearance again in an upcoming novel.

Moreover when he was part of the fellowship of Jarlaxle the weird drow was helping Artemis fighting his own destructive rage. At some point during this journey it seemed, in my very humble opinion, as he was traslated from Evil Legal to some allignment closer to neutrality. I'll be not surprised if the new Entreri sheet shows a non-alligned NPC.

I agree with you about the ipothesis of a new Jarlaxle-Entreri's partnership. And it will be great read of Drizzt and Entreri discoring their nemesis are still alive (do you remember? Jarlaxle let Entreri believe that Drizzt was dead; and, obviously, the dark ranger should imagine Artemis death after his aging...)!!! SHOW TIME!!!