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PhishStyx
09-08-2007, 05:52 PM
I want to poll what supers games you folks have played. So here we are. Yay us!

Digital Arcanist
09-08-2007, 10:07 PM
I've played just about everything under the sun, but I think my favorite system will have to Hero System. My biggest pet peeve as a super heroic gamer is people wanting to play as the well-known characters of their favorite comics/movies. I find it to go against the spirit of role-playing. Once you sit down to play the Marvel or DC games, everyone just fights over who gets to be Superman or Captain America. Hero system puts such a high cost on cool powers that you can't play like that and are forced really to use your imagination , which I feel is the spirit of role-playing.

PhishStyx
09-08-2007, 10:37 PM
I played a lot of both Marvel and DC, had more than 20 characters, and never once felt bad or missed the fact that I wasn't playing a "name" character.

Digital Arcanist
09-09-2007, 02:01 AM
With the near limitless combinations of powers and quirks, why would you ever want to limit yourself to something that has 40 years of history already. In my campaigns I enforce a strict policy of no knock-offs. The fact that people have some weird desire to play pre-made characters is what is going to sink the Marvel/DC MMORPG's coming out.

PhishStyx
09-09-2007, 02:13 AM
With the near limitless combinations of powers and quirks, why would you ever want to limit yourself to something that has 40 years of history already.

Because that 40 year history has value to many people, me included. So much has happened in Marvel in the last 40 years that a GM can pull from to create a whole new storyline and have it grounded in a context that frequently the players are already very familiar with, that a single writer with months or even several years to spend on a game world could hardly hope to compete for character making details and quality of established in-game factual information. All a GM need do is read and pull ideas from a very deep well of his (or her) chosen comic book universe.

That's not to say that a writer or GM should never create a new setting or universe, but just as certainly, the opposite is also true.


In my campaigns I enforce a strict policy of no knock-offs. The fact that people have some weird desire to play pre-made characters is what is going to sink the Marvel/DC MMORPG's coming out.

Again, I've played Marvel and DC in various forms, not to mention various other supers games, since the early 90's, and I don't think I've ever done a knock-off character. Of course that said, the field is narrowing swiftly for originality in super heroic types.

I'll post some of my characters in the Blog section.

Digital Arcanist
09-09-2007, 11:49 AM
I see no problem with using big name heroes as NPC's or pulling plot elements from the comics because that is all part of the setting, but my gripe lies in players choosing to play as pre-made characters. I feel that is another symptom of the cancer known as console-based RPG's.

Moritz
09-10-2007, 08:08 AM
I ran a Marvel Super Heroes game allowing the players to pick Feature Characters (FC's) from the book; but not to pick anyone over Unearthly (basically no cosmics). Or they could roll up their own characters. It worked pretty well, but "Sam" had to ruin the game for everyone and it only lasted 2 sessions. I've got the house rules (all 22 pages of them) if anyone is interested. :) - Yes, I had to write house rules, just for players like "Sam".

Digital Arcanist
09-10-2007, 04:43 PM
You needed 22 pages of house rules? I'm interested to see what behavior would require 22 pages worth of rules.

PhishStyx
09-10-2007, 06:08 PM
You needed 22 pages of house rules? I'm interested to see what behavior would require 22 pages worth of rules.

Not sure about that, but I know a guy who wrote a home brewed set of point-based character generation rules for MSH, which is kinda cool and really evens out some of the bumpier problems in the MSH game system.

Moritz
09-11-2007, 08:21 AM
In my House Rules, I had to literally go through every power (in ultimate powers book) and clarify many of them to prevent rules raping. There are many 'vague' write-ups in the MSH rules. "Sam" is an experienced and crafty rapist. He's always looking to find a means to min-max, power game, etc. Hence the reason I don't play with "Sam" anymore. Heck, no one plays with "Sam" anymore. I will note, 7 of the 22 pages is a time-line detailing the world and where the characters are in all of it.

Drohem
11-27-2007, 04:41 PM
Ok, these weren't in the poll selection:

Superworld
Villians & Vigilantes
Golden Heroes
Champions

PhishStyx
11-27-2007, 05:31 PM
Ok, these weren't in the poll selection:

Superworld
Villians & Vigilantes
Golden Heroes
Champions


Well, I'm not familiar with either Superworld or Golden Heroes at all, and while I forgot to put in Villains and Vigilantes, Champions doesn't really fit the category that I'm thinking of here. I'm looking for specifically Super Hero games, not generic games tied to supers concepts.

On the other hand, I didn't put in Superbabes either.

Drohem
11-27-2007, 07:05 PM
Champions is specifically a superhero system. The Hero Game system was derived from Champions originally.

Drohem
11-27-2007, 09:31 PM
Superworld was produced by Chaosium using the Basic Role-Playing system. It was originally one of the three booklets from the Worlds of Wonder game produced by Chaosium based of the BRP system. Worlds of Wonder was really the first true universal game system.

PhishStyx
11-27-2007, 10:17 PM
I didn't buy my first Cthulhu game until the last few years. In fact in 1983, I had only bought one non-D&D game book, and that was Star Frontiers.

Drohem
11-27-2007, 10:38 PM
Ahh...Star Frontiers. I had some good times playing that game as well. I had a Dralasite doctor who was addicted to medications. Good times!

PhishStyx
11-27-2007, 10:45 PM
He's a dralasite, he could get addicted to incense!

ronpyatt
11-28-2007, 12:45 AM
Well, I played a lot of Champions (pre-HERO system), V&V, and a little Marvel. I was always frustrated that I could not build my character the way I wanted, and they never seemed to capture the super-hero feel entirely.

However, I have to say that Truth & Justice is the best supers games I've ever played. You can actually have Superman, Mark and Wendy, and Spiderman all in the same game without worrying about Superman soaking up the spotlight and taking all the action.

T&J lets you play a comic book superhero and have it feel like a comic book superhero. You build your powers exactly how they work in the comics. No lie.

PhishStyx
11-28-2007, 02:16 AM
I think it's interesting that Marvel Super Heroes got 8 out of 8 votes and is the only game there to have gotten 100%. That really says something about that game to me.

Drohem
11-28-2007, 02:43 AM
Currently, my group is running a World War II Supers campaign using the d20 net PDF Deeds Not Words. This is an excellent resource. There are two supplements for it (Laying the Smack Down, and Bold Costumes, Black Hearts).

We originally started a d20 supers campaign with the d20 net PDF Power Overwhelming, but quickly abandoned it in favor of Deeds Not Words. We now refer to Power Overwhelming as Power Overbroken ;).

If you don't mind d20 and want to try a new supers supplements, then you should check it out.

Moritz
11-28-2007, 09:01 AM
I think it's interesting that Marvel Super Heroes got 8 out of 8 votes and is the only game there to have gotten 100%. That really says something about that game to me.

MSH was the bomb. At least to me. It was my first experience playing a super heroic game and ultimately allowed me to play what I've always wanted to play since early childhood and play-pretend at nursery school. I would always go back to that game if given the opportunity (and was a few years back).

Champions/HERO system, it was a little cumbersome and I R teh sux at math. So it never really stuck with me for more than 7 years :)

pawsplay
12-08-2007, 10:22 AM
I think that says more about Marvel Super Hero's longevity, availability, and time in print than the game itself.

Grinnen Baeritt
12-15-2007, 04:26 AM
The 1st Superheroes game I ever played (and to be honest It's not the genre I'd chose to play) was V&V. In fact the third system I tried, after Bushido (also a FGU game).

This had the advantage of not using super heroes under licence, which is an advantage if you don't want the "Big Guns" in the scene.

GODLIKE. (another published system not covered..) A fairly low-powered and gritty game, set during and in the 2WW. For fans of the series "Heroes" I'd reccomend it.

I quite liked Mutants & Masterminds, but, both editions seemed to be flawed and look a significant amount of time to point/create characters, also seemed fairly easy to abuse points wise. An d20 based game, but with some major rules trimming/alterations from the D&D D20 version.

BRAVE NEW WORLD. Yet another one.... there are SO many published SH games out there.

MSH.. popular because it is licenced and does contain the big guns..

magic-rhyme
01-13-2008, 11:18 PM
Where are Aberrant? Villains & Vigilantes? GURPS Supers?

Digital Arcanist
01-13-2008, 11:20 PM
Where are Aberrant? Villains & Vigilantes? GURPS Supers?

In the trunk of a car with their mouths duct-taped?

nijineko
01-14-2008, 12:19 AM
I want to poll what supers games you folks have played. So here we are. Yay us!

hey! where's champions?!?!?! how could you forget champions in a super hero poll????

and gurps supers, or how about the four-color system? mutants and masterminds? please add them? please?!

^^ of which i've only played the champions (the autoduel crossover, to be specific) and gurps supers.

Mulsiphix
01-14-2008, 12:23 AM
I played the VS. TCG quite heavily for a while. Does that count? I'm actually going to be getting some Mutants and Masterminds stuff in the mail here soon, from another eBay lot. I've heard quite a few people here on the boards raving about it so I'm excited to see what all the buzz is about.

Digital Arcanist
01-14-2008, 08:26 PM
Heroes and Champions are the same game.

M&M is fun but the character creation is confusing.

Mulsiphix
01-14-2008, 10:07 PM
Confusing in an overly complicated way or confusing like the creation system is wonky?

Digital Arcanist
01-14-2008, 10:18 PM
A little from column A and a little column B...

Mulsiphix
01-14-2008, 10:53 PM
But not as bad as GURPS Vehicle creation I bet. I've yet to read up on it but every time it comes up in conversation I can feel somebody shuddering at the thought hundreds of miles away :p

Skunkape
01-15-2008, 06:41 AM
But not as bad as GURPS Vehicle creation I bet. I've yet to read up on it but every time it comes up in conversation I can feel somebody shuddering at the thought hundreds of miles away :p

Don't get me wrong, GURPS Vehicle creation is very detailed, but you just about need a math doctorate to deal with all of the calculation involved!;)

Steve Jackson really needs to come out with a program for creating vehicles that eliminates the need for it! Don't get me wrong, you can do lots with the system, I've created suits of power armor, ala BattleDress from Traveler with it, but man, even that is a little to task intensive for me this from a guy who could run a Champions game and within a couple of seconds after rolling a massive attack, tell how much body and stun were dealt to the character I hit.:D

Mulsiphix
01-15-2008, 08:15 AM
Steve Jackson really needs to come out with a program for creating vehicles that eliminates the need for it! May I present to you the GURPS Vehicle Builder (http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/vehiclebuilder/) :cool:

Skunkape
01-16-2008, 08:42 AM
May I present to you the GURPS Vehicle Builder (http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/vehiclebuilder/) :cool:

Bout time they did something like that!:D

Mulsiphix
01-16-2008, 11:46 AM
Just checked the poll results. Jeesh no love for Hearts & Souls by Tim Kirk. Has anybody here even played it, other than PhishStyx?

nijineko
01-19-2008, 09:39 AM
that's one i hadn't heard of.

champions and hero is not quite the same thing. or maybe it's just my outlook. champions was one of the early superhero games. hero was the generalization of champions to include just about everything else. or at least that was my impression.

i enjoyed playing gurps supers a lot, but that may be a function of having enough points to build what i wanted. i did find two serious rules abuses in the super rules. mind you, serious. the rest were minor.

however, i still have a lot of nostalgia for marvel. it was my first superhero system.

hero's unlimited was fun, as was synibarr. (it's who you game with, not what you're gaming with....)

i find that how difficult it is to build a specific concept in superhero design depends somewhat on the system. some systems simply don't support certain concepts. others label it as really powerful / expensive, while in others it's cheap. it really just depends.

like in champions, virtually no one buys flash defense....

Drohem
01-19-2008, 06:00 PM
I played in a cool Heroes Unlimited campaign that was loosely based upon Firestarter. It was really cool because we had to discover our powers as we dodged government agents and black helicopters.

nijineko
01-21-2008, 11:28 AM
sweet!

the gurps vehicle rules are based on the original carwars rules... now there were some detailed rules. not to mention accurate-to-life movement rules. the turning radius key was extremely handy!

Mulsiphix
01-22-2008, 12:15 AM
GURPS just keeps getting more sexy :rolleyes:

Glistam
01-23-2008, 10:50 AM
My favorite super hero game was the 5th editioin of DC Heroes. Mutants and Masterminds comes in at a close second because despite the dice/system differences it's very similar to the DC Heroes game. Heroes Unlimited was the first super hero game I ever got my hands on and I've done most of my superhero gaming with it. Aberrant was a terribly abusable and clumsy system, but I thoroughly enjoyed that game for it's story.

I guess overall now my favorite system to run a hero game in is Mutants and Masterminds. I am really glad that I was eventually introduced to that system.

magic-rhyme
01-26-2008, 05:20 PM
Mutants and Masterminds comes in at a close second because despite the dice/system differences it's very similar to the DC Heroes game.
How are they alike?

I've always loved Mayfair's DC Heroes game, but I disliked Mutants and Masterminds. It came across as soullessly mechanistic and clumsy to me.

(I've grown to hate it simply because I've read so many posts from people who write about Mutants and Masterminds in terms which should be reserved for witnessing firsthand the Second Coming of Christ or a personal interview with Moses or Mohammad -- the rabid fans have soured it for me.)

I'd love to read a positive perspective on Mutants and Masterminds from someone who loves DC Heroes and therefore is writing from a viewpoint I think I can trust.

So how do you see them as alike despite the dice difference?

nijineko
01-28-2008, 06:47 AM
i've been meaning to get my hands on that and give it a good looking over. eventually i will. ^^

kipling
02-19-2008, 01:22 PM
By the way, I'm crushed that the poll doesn't include Champions. (And it's not a generic-system thing, too, because it includes GURPS.)


How are they alike?

I've always loved Mayfair's DC Heroes game, but I disliked Mutants and Masterminds. It came across as soullessly mechanistic and clumsy to me.

(I've grown to hate it simply because I've read so many posts from people who write about Mutants and Masterminds in terms which should be reserved for witnessing firsthand the Second Coming of Christ or a personal interview with Moses or Mohammad -- the rabid fans have soured it for me.)

I'd love to read a positive perspective on Mutants and Masterminds from someone who loves DC Heroes and therefore is writing from a viewpoint I think I can trust.

So how do you see them as alike despite the dice difference?

This is a comparison to the third Mayfair edition, rather than the later MEGS editions (Blood of Heroes). I had the three Mayfair editions, but the first is long gone and the second is hidden in a box.

Scaling is similar, though not identical. The existence of pre-written powers (even though M+M is an effects-based game) is similar. The existence of Hero Points is similar (although they have different mechanics, the fact that Hero Points exist and let you modify the world is similar).

EDIT: Oh, the power purchase system is actually quite similar, with the column being the per rank cost, actual ranks of a power, and column shifts being the +1 extra or -1 flaw; one is a table lookup and one is multiplication, but really they're about the same. (End EDIT)

On the other hand, I thought DC Heroes had a better magic/psionics/phisical breakdown, and a nicer actual combat system. However, the tables were a bit of a problem, and the system did suffer at the lower end, where the normals lived.

Anyone else got differences?

Chris House
03-05-2008, 02:11 PM
IF you own Mutants and master minds
do you really need any other game system its better then a lot and it should have been what Green ronin used instead of that nasty true 20
as a universal system
a few house rules and bam boom paw you got sci fi, horror, and Fantasy !

those who play MnM am I wrong here>?
who has played MnM and thought this is perfect merge of Heros system and d20? Matter of fact for more suttle games I use combat stat for attack and list it as a skill, that cost more points like BESM use to do according to Genere!

nijineko
03-09-2008, 04:24 AM
any system can be cobbled into another. it's just that some are more work than others. i'm about to start my first ever m&m game here, so i'll get back to you on how i wind up feeling about it. =D

Bravo
03-16-2008, 01:30 PM
If is a supers rpg chances are I have played it or owned it at sometime - a house fire destroyed alot of my old treasures but i am back on track with Mutants and Masterminds THE best supers rpg imho.

Webhead
03-21-2008, 12:09 PM
I've owned, read and played a lot of super hero RPGs.

Some of my favorites are:

Mutants & Masterminds: Great supers game that has enough detail to be truly customizable while being streamlined enough to fascilitate fast character creation and gameplay.

Marvel Super Heroes: An old staple of supers RPGs. Its "semi-random" character creation might not suit everyone's tastes (some people have house rules for doing away with this), but the system is very simple and accesible and is a ton of fun to play. I particularly love the rules for Karma Points, both for heroes and villains.

DC Heroes (Mayfair): I LOVE the way DC Heroes uses "AP's" (Attribute Points) to describe all elements of the game and on an exponential scale and I admire how easily AP's work together. It allows for things that are usually a little obnoxious and time-consuming to figure out (like how much time it takes to travel a certain distance or how far you can throw something of a certain weight) to be answered instantaneously. It also leads to very clean, simple looking character sheets without bunches of numbers that need to be deciphered.

Supercrew: This very rules-lite supers game looks like it would just be a lot of fun to play. On top of that, it has a few surprisingly interesting rules twists that adds a little more to the gameplay.

Some of the others I've played but didn't have lasting appeal for me:

DC Universe (D6): I love the D6 system, but DC Universe felt rather dice-heavy (with characters easily rolling 10 or more dice for things) and some elements of the game felt incomplete

Marvel Universe: Reading this game system is very interesting and its "resource management" approach actually seemed like it would be really cool. In play however, the bugs in the system become quickly apparent and one quickly learns that certain abilities are far more powerful than others to the point of slanting the game in their favor (the "Endurance" attribute for example is the most potent and useful attribute and low Endurance endurance ends up equating to ineffectual characters).

HERO System: A very detailed and complex system that is rather too complex for my tastes. If I want to play a high-granularity supers RPG, I would much rather turn to Mutants & Masterminds which can do about 90% of what HERO does but with less than half the work.

Frobozz
03-25-2008, 12:06 AM
I'm a fan of the Palladium holy trinity for Heroes gaming: Heroes Unlimited + Villains Unlimited + Ninjas and Superspies.

We had some wild games with that combo. :)

TheQuestionMan
04-16-2008, 06:20 PM
Your missing a lot of Superhero RPGs there Bub!

Aberrant (& Trinity) by White Wolf
http://www.white-wolf.com/downloads.php?category_id=40

Algernon Files, The by Blackwyrm Games
http://www.blackwyrm.com/Products.htm

Authority RPG & Resource Book by Guardians of Order
http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/12/12951.phtml

BASH! Basic Action Super Heroes by Basic Action Games
http://www.bashrpg.com/

Blood of Heroes by Pulsar Games Inc.
http://www.pulsargamesinc.com/products.html

Brave New World by Pinnacle Games & Alderac Entertainment Group
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brave_New_World_%28role_playing_game%29

Cartoon Action Hour RPG by Z-Man Games, Inc.
http://www.zmangames.com/products/CAH/products.html

Champions by Hero Games
http://www.herogames.com/productsChampions.htm

DC Universe Role-Playing Game by West End Games
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DC_Universe_Roleplaying_Game

Enforcers by Twenty-First Century Games.
http://www.twenty-first-century-games.com/

F.R.E.E.Lancers by TSR
???

Guardians & Justifiers by StarChilde Publications
http://www.waynesbooks.com/Justifiers.html

Godlike by Arc Dream & Hobgoblynn Press
http://arcdream.com/godlike/

Godsend Agenda D6 by Khepera Publishing
http://www.godsendagenda.com/

Golden Heroes by Games Workshop
http://squadronuk.co.uk/

GURPS Supers by Steve Jackson Games
http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/supers/

Heroes and Heroines by Excel Marketing (Thanks Alric)
http://www.pen-paper.net/rpgdb.php?op=showbook&bookid=226

Hearts and Souls by Better Mousetrap Games
http://silverlionstudios.com/

Heroes Forever by Guild of Blades
http://www.guildofblades.com/heroes.html

Heroes Unlimited by Palladium Games
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroes_Unlimited

Heroic Conquest by Renaissance Ink
???

Heroic Do-Gooders and Dastardly Deed-Doers by Mathew Van Dinter
http://darkshire.net/~jhkim/rpg/ency...eroicdogooders

Hero Force by Deep7
???

Heroic Visions by New Vision Comics
http://comics.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=16545&it=1

Marvel Universe Role Playing Game by Marvel Publishing Group
http://www.marvelrpg.net/

Marvel Super Heroes Role-Playing Game by TSR
http://www.heroplay.com/features/rules/marvel.php

Mutants and Masterminds by Green Ronin Publishing
http://www.mutantsandmasterminds.com/

Necessary Evil (Savage Worlds Setting) (Thanks Redmenace)
http://www.smithandrobards.com/index.php?cPath=2_16_7

Nocturnals by Green Ronin Publishing
http://www.nocturnals.com/newindex.html

Omlevex by Z-Man Games, Inc.
http://www.spectrum-games.com/omlevex/index1.html

Silver Age Sentinels by Guardians of Order
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_Age_Sentinels

Superhero 2044 by Gamescience, Inc.
http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1387761

Super Squadron by Adventure Simulations - an Australian game "inspired" by Villains and Vigilantes
http://www.arielarchives.com/AdvSim.html

Superworld by Chaosium
http://www.chaosium.com/

Superbabes (Femforce) by Tri-City Games
http://rkscroy.tripod.com/accomics1.htm

Supergame by DAG Productions
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=336

Super-Sentinels by Judge's Guild
???

Super Squadron by Adventure Simulations
http://www.arielarchives.com/AdvSim.html

Supervillains by Task Force Games
http://www.darkshire.net/~jhkim/rpg/...supersentinels

San Angelo: City of Heroes by Gold Rush Games
http://www.goldrushgames.com/start/m...rtid=35&page=1

The Dragons Gate San Angelo's Chinatown by Gold Rush Games
http://www.mortality.net/modules.php...content&id=264

TORG - by West End Games
http://www.westendgames.com/torg/indextorg.html

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and Other Strangeness by Palladium Games
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teenage...er_Strangeness

Truth and Justice by Sock Monkey Press (by Chad Underkoffler)
http://www.atomicsockmonkey.com/products/tj.asp

Villains and Vigilantes (Living Legends) by Fantasy Games Unlimited
http://www.io.com/unigames/vandv.html

Underworld by Mayfair Games
http://www.mayfairgames.com/

Wild Talents - published by Arc Dream
http://www.arcdream.com/


Cheers


QM

agoraderek
06-01-2008, 06:15 PM
yeah, they werent on the poll list, but my favorites were champions and villains and vigilantes...

TheQuestionMan
06-02-2008, 12:19 PM
1st Marvel Superheroes
2nd Villains & Vigilantes
3rd Champions (And still Champion!!! of the Superhero RPGs!!!)
4th DC Heroes
5th Heroes Unlimited
6th Mutants & Masterminds
7th Silver Age Sentinels
8th+ & a few others not worth mentioning


IMOHO


QM

Law Dog
07-04-2008, 03:00 PM
Played and GMed in a MSHRPG that lasted from 1984 to 1999 or so. Love the karma system. It actually was one of the best simulations of what happens on the comic book page since you could be a hero (without the dice screwing you up) in that moment of crisis.

Played a lot of Champions from the late eighties to the turn of the century. Great for simulation of blow-by-blow combat, but the dice sure could come to bite you.

Don't care for Mutants and Masterminds, but have played it, also.

nijineko
07-04-2008, 06:47 PM
i really enjoyed the original marvel supers games. lots of fun.

the heroes/villians/ninjas&superspies was also great fun... especially when you tossed the tmnt conversion rules into the mix! =D

gurps supers was great fun.

so far, m&m is working out pretty nice, too.

hmmm, those are the only ones i've played, but i think it's safe to say that i love playing superhero games. =D

Webhead
07-07-2008, 09:33 AM
I miss playing Marvel Super Heroes. I need to either run or play MSH very soon...the problem would be talking my players into it.

MSH and M&M would be my two favorite supers RPGs at the moment.

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
07-08-2008, 12:46 AM
I bow before you all. I have never played any of these games. I wish i had the time.

Thoth-Amon

Tamerath
07-09-2008, 01:26 PM
I ran a couple of games of Marvel SAGA (card game). It was very fun for me and my group and as a Gamemaster of it I will say that having generate adventures "on the fly" and left up to the twist of fate was difficult and rewarding at the same time.

Abberant isn't listed here...and sadly I never had a chance to run it but it was published by White Wolf and felt like the Heroes TV show with a really dark bent and multiple factions to join. It was a really great idea.

Webhead
07-09-2008, 01:58 PM
Super Heroes is one of my favorite, yet least played, RPG genres. I would go hog-wild with fun in a supers game (as player or GM). Sadly, most players I game with would rather do something (anything) else. :(

Valdar
07-09-2008, 03:47 PM
My first supers game was V&V. Had fun with it, but that was 6th grade, so I don't really remember how good it was as a system. I do recall hearing that it had the most accurate damage system in gaming since they based it on FBI firearm lethality figures...

Champions worked best I think from the games I tried. You had a good idea of what things the party was capable of, except for the one guy who put half his points into DEX and could never be hit.

GURPS Supers was fun to make characters for, but playing it was a joke. You could put most of your points into STR and still not be able to pick up a car.

I did play a very early version of Marvel Super Heroes, but like V&V, don't remember much of it. The "area" system of maps and the "adjective" system of abilities ("amazing", "monstrous", etc) was really creative I thought.

Webhead
07-09-2008, 04:01 PM
I did play a very early version of Marvel Super Heroes, but like V&V, don't remember much of it. The "area" system of maps and the "adjective" system of abilities ("amazing", "monstrous", etc) was really creative I thought.

Yeah, I quite liked a lot of things about MSH. Especially when it came to the "Karma" system. Heroes would earn Karma for doing "heroic" things and would lose Karma for being "unheroic". Sure, you can let little Billy get crushed by the collapsing building and instead rush to capture the villain...but you'll lose all of your Karma if you do it! ;)

And Karma for villains was terrific too. Why does the villain capture the heroes, reveal the details of his plan and then place them in a terrifying-but-ultimately-escapable death trap rather than just shoot them in the head? Because he gets a lot of Karma for it, that's why!

I've never played V&V, but I've heard that it has been re-released by the original creator under a different name. I'm sure with Google and a couple of minutes research, you can turn up something.

Only played Champions once. I loved the character that I made, but I was luke-warm on the system at best.

ryan973
07-10-2008, 10:01 AM
I love, LOVE LOVE the new marvel univers rpg. You can do anything if you have the stones. I was not sure at first but i introduced it too my dnd group and they loved it. It worked out awsoem in combat and we were able to use the damage and resistance chart to really be able to tell what you could get away with using your powers very cool game. By far my favorit for supers.

My others that i own are the heroes one for paladium

the fifth editoion heroes book. You know the big ass book that is kind of intimidatiing but you have to own. lol i love super games.

I am planning on using the marvel rules for a buffy game next.

LAST CRUSADER
02-14-2009, 11:32 PM
hold on to your hat, i've played a lot of them:
dungeons and dragons, basic and advanced. First edition only. I've hated everything else they've made.

villains and vigilantes, all sing the praises of jeff dee.

paranoia, much more fun to read the rules than to play the game.

heroes unlimited, o-k, it's in the credits because i played it but the less i say about any palladium games the better.

marvel super heroes, both basic and deluxe. I thought the ultimate powers book was the best thing since penicillin.

champions, i loved it so long as someone else was the g.m. But the math ! The math ! Oh dear lord the math ! And who the hell uses metric in this country, anyway ?

toon, system just didn't work, for what it was supposed to be.

teenagers from outer space, we made characters but never played. Looked a lot like toon.

d.c. Heroes, i loved it so long as someone else was the g.m. Hated the action resolution system, and never had enough hero points to do anything.
ghost busters, it wasn't my idea. We made characters and never played.

elric, or stormbringer i don't know which one it was. Both are made by chaosium. The g.m. Made me do it !

call of cthulu, the horror the horror.

traveler, we made characters but never played.

star wars, we made characters but never played

middle earth role playing system, we made characters but never played. Never all that into tolken

macho women with guns, o-k we've all done thing's we're ashamed of.

talislanta, loved what i saw of it. Good simple system. Unfortunately the g.m. Lost interest so it didn't go anywhere.

gurps, it seemed like a good idea at first. But aaghh!!!

chill, a guy i knew was into it.


torg, good system but tied to it's own world and genre, so it didn't really have room for me to be creative.

robotech, a guy i knew was into it

warhammer, not a good experience for me. Knew was into it.

amber diceless role playing, we made characters but never played. None of us liked it.

street fighter, didn't own it and can't remember much about it but i was totally into kung- fu at the time.

blood of heroes, if you've played d.c. Heroes you've played blood of heroes. Nuff said.

freedom force, great system but not a lot of adventures and the mods were mostly glitchy. The sequel wasn't as good.

city of heroes, lots of eye candy but very few choices for powers. It's getting better.

mutants and masterminds, read some of it, looking for ideas. Never played it. It looked too complicated.

Dark
02-15-2009, 06:52 AM
In the Superhero games Ive played and enjoyed Marvel Super Heroes, Marvel SAGA, as well as the original DC Heroes.

Valdar
02-15-2009, 12:15 PM
traveler, we made characters but never played.



Was that because the characters died during character generation?

I know later versions of Traveler were better at that, but that game will always carry the stigma of killing off characters before they're played, because it would be unrealistic to go through a military career with no chance of dying...

Webhead
02-16-2009, 08:28 AM
Was that because the characters died during character generation?

I know later versions of Traveler were better at that, but that game will always carry the stigma of killing off characters before they're played, because it would be unrealistic to go through a military career with no chance of dying...

Yeah, my first (and only) Traveller character died during character gen. The GM was kind enough to have me reroll on that table rather than spend another two hours rolling up a whole new character. :rolleyes:

LAST CRUSADER
02-16-2009, 08:57 PM
No it was because the characters were all really old. We had a lot of skills but we were using walkers and wearing depends

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
02-16-2009, 09:49 PM
I've played plenty of rpg's, including, Traveller, Gamma World, DnD, TnT, Top Secret, WFRP, Star Frontiers, GURPS, and a few others that i cant recall at the moment, so imagine my disappointment when i found that i have never played one game listed, and therefore couldnt participate in the poll. Thoth cries foul!

Webhead
02-17-2009, 12:05 AM
I've played plenty of rpg's, including, Traveller, Gamma World, DnD, TnT, Top Secret, WFRP, Star Frontiers, GURPS, and a few others that i cant recall at the moment, so imagine my disappointment when i found that i have never played one game mentioned, and therefore couldnt participate in the poll. Thoth cries foul!

I also find it slightly tragic that neither HERO System/Champions nor Mutants & Masterminds are represented in the poll, but I suppose you have to draw the line somewhere... :)

Charles1971
02-24-2009, 11:54 AM
I've looked at several superhero RPGs and strongly believe that any level-based system just doesn't work for superheroes. The Hero System is the best I've seen, despite the combat being a bit slow and the rules a bit too complex.

Webhead
02-24-2009, 12:54 PM
I've looked at several superhero RPGs and strongly believe that any level-based system just doesn't work for superheroes...

I completely agree.


...The Hero System is the best I've seen, despite the combat being a bit slow and the rules a bit too complex.

If that is your general opinion on HERO system, I would strongly suggest at least taking a look at Mutants & Masterminds (if you haven't already). As someone once eloquently stated "it does 90% of what HERO can do with less than half the time and effort".

I also wanted very much to like HERO but I find that the things you mention (slower pace of combat and complexity of stat manipulation due to the level of rules detail) were the most significant obstacles. M&M is almost as tweakable and customizable but runs much quicker in combat and doesn't take quite as much time to build characters or create effects on the fly.

It doesn't do everything that HERO does but then, it is a lot more streamlined, unified and easy to understand. I consider it more than a fair trade-off. The best thing about M&M is that it allows but does not require you to get very detailed with your characters and their powers. You can very quickly and easily put a suite of powers together to make your character or you can spend the extra time fine tuning everything to get exactly the details that you want. This makes it great for first-timers and system-twinks alike.

Should you have questions, just ask.

Valdar
02-25-2009, 12:32 PM
I recently started playing in a game using the Tri-Stat system- I noticed that it has a superhero version (Silver Age Sentinels)- Has anyone tried this system before?

My initial impression is that your character has about a 10 percent chance at succeeding at anything he attempts if he's not completely specialized to do it- but that could just be how the GM is running things-

Webhead
02-25-2009, 01:08 PM
I recently started playing in a game using the Tri-Stat system- I noticed that it has a superhero version (Silver Age Sentinels)- Has anyone tried this system before?

My initial impression is that your character has about a 10 percent chance at succeeding at anything he attempts if he's not completely specialized to do it- but that could just be how the GM is running things-

Tri-Stat is based on the BESM system but expanded to allow for the use of dice other than d6. I have only played it a couple times but it seems to be decent enough. Probabilities seems to be about as fair as any other similar system which, obviously, varies depending on how skilled/unskilled your character is at what they're trying to do.

That said, I found it a little harder to conceptualize relative skill level at times as it operates on a different scale and curve than most other games I've played.

That said, "scaling up" in Tri-stat to larger die types (such as d10, which SAS uses as a default) tends to push favortism to characters built in that direction. By that I mean, trying to build a "normal" character in SAS using the d10 scale instead of the d6 scale means that you will be much less likely to succeed at things compared to characters built toward the upper end of that scale. Likewise, the same character built under an assumption of using d6s would be pretty heavily crippled in a game using d10s simply because of probabilities of rolling under your stat numbers.

kipling
02-26-2009, 07:05 AM
I played the d10 version of SAS in play test, and at that time the powers were kind of unbalanced. (I assume that got fixed in release.) I played Tri-Stat, but not enough to have a real feel for what a good or expert person would have. (I liked various aspects of Tri-Stat, but not being an anime person, I had real troubles with the areas where that would impinge.) Sorcery, for example, was clearly superior to everything. There were a couple of powers that were almost equivalent, and we had a lot of questions about variable powers.

All told, I wasn't thrilled enough to buy the Tri-Stat version when it came out, though some of the world-building was quite nice. I'd steal that. :)

magic-rhyme
04-04-2009, 11:31 PM
I know later versions of Traveler were better at that, but that game will always carry the stigma of killing off characters before they're played, because it would be unrealistic to go through a military career with no chance of dying...

Actually, it was a gamble position.

You could muster out at any time. If you chose to stay in in the effort to gain more gimmes, you risked being killed off.

But everyone tried to stay in for a lot of gimmes, and very quickly, players forgot that the death had originally been intended as a gamble maneuver for players who wanted to risk character death during generation for the sake of a few benefits.

DragonmagRT
05-01-2009, 08:23 PM
The first RPG I ever ran was the Advanced Marvel Superheroes game by TSR. I was introduced to super heroic gaming by a friend using the basic set, so once the advanced set came out I pounced on it and was asked to run a game.

PhishStyx
05-20-2009, 05:45 PM
I also find it slightly tragic that neither HERO System/Champions nor Mutants & Masterminds are represented in the poll, but I suppose you have to draw the line somewhere... :)

I intentionally left those out because they're already represented with their own forums here. I chose the games that I did primarily because they are ones that I did not frequently see discussed here.

I also noticed that someone posted links to more than a dozen games (polls in this software are limited to IIRC 10 or 12 choices) and claimed that none of them are up there, including DC Universe, Godsend Agenda, The Authority, and Hearts & Souls all of which are in the poll.
Strangely, he also included Omlevex, which is a Silver Age Sentinels (which is paired with The Authority on the poll) supplement not a stand alone game.

Webhead
05-20-2009, 07:55 PM
...I also noticed that someone posted links to more than a dozen games (polls in this software are limited to IIRC 10 or 12 choices) and claimed that none of them are up there, including DC Universe, Godsend Agenda, The Authority, and Hearts & Souls all of which are in the poll.
Strangely, he also included Omlevex, which is a Silver Age Sentinels (which is paired with The Authority on the poll) supplement not a stand alone game.

Yeah, Omlevex was a SAS/HERO/M&M setting book, not a self-contained RPG. I actually wrote a few small bits of the Omlevex book which was a really enjoyable experience. The creator and Z-Man Games president, Cynthia, is a great person to work with and very enthusiastic about gaming.

Killwatch
06-09-2009, 12:40 AM
MSH Classic MS Card Game thingy, DCH, DC D6, M&M, Cosmic Enforcers, HU, Champions

WhiteTiger
07-29-2009, 08:42 AM
Does BESM count ? I like 3rd edition.

outrider
07-29-2009, 10:52 AM
I am surprised that superworld was mentioned. I thought nobody but me ever ran it.
Campaign lasted nearly a year. Loads of fun.

It was too bad that champions, and Villains and Vigilantes weren't on the poll. One previous poster was correct. Champions was the original hero system and became generic later.

Marvel Master
11-16-2009, 02:21 PM
To resurrect the thread, bar none the Classic Marvel Advanced RPG is the best hero RPG around. I'm currently expanding my current meetup campaign to online and I'm looking for others who may just want to join online oinly. Details are here:

Classic Marvel Campaign Goes Online (http://www.penandpapergames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12833)

Marvel was simple with plenty of flexibility. I don't like systems that have a ton of numbers and math which is why I was never a fan of the Hero System/Champions. Way too convoluted. It should take about an hour to make a character, not six.

I have everything that ever came out with that game. The Marvel Saga system was wackety wack, wack. Didn't even compare to the classic system.

DC had potential but the numbers and multiple charts turned me off a little though I still wouldn't mind experimenting with it since I have the second edition of the game. Online only maybe. Not sure yet.

All in all, you have a great system with Classic Marvel Advanced.

Soft Serve
12-05-2009, 08:36 AM
MAde countless numbers of heroes with MSHRPG.

Morcant
12-08-2009, 10:24 PM
Out of the list, I've played Marvel Super Heroes and DC Heroes. The latter is my favorite superhero game ever. I loved the exponential system, and the nine attributes each character had.

Killwatch
12-09-2009, 02:41 AM
I really didn't like the exponential system
3 was twice as strong as 2, so really there should be no way one could beat them in a test of strength, but they do and often
6 is twice as fast as 5, so there is no way one could win in a foot race, but they do and often
Here is another hole, conceivably and it did happen in a DC game in Rockford Illinois back in the 90s the JLA was taking on Doomsday, everyone was pounding on him and failing terribly. Superman was down and dead and in a heart warming instant of rage and grief pa kent, the AARP guy, the retired heart failure knocking on heaven's door guy, ran up to Doomsday and threw his feeble fist with tears in his eyes
The GM rolled doubles and doubles etc etc until he one hit and killed Doomsday with Pa Kent. great story, effing terrible system with no common sense. A Generous Str of 2 took out Str 27 and Body 25 Doomsday

as a conversion for DC to MSH multiply the stat or number by 5 for a rank. Divide by 5 for MSH to DC

and no I don't want to hear anything about how MSH isn't exponential and therefore incomparable, that is BS. If I with a 3 can have any hope of catching or even beating someone in a foot race with someone with a speed of 5 which is technically 4 times my speed then they don't even believe it.

Richard Littles
12-09-2009, 05:13 AM
I've played DC Heroes from Mayfair, MSH from TSR, Heroes Unlimited, V&V, and Champions. Out of those three, I've found that Champions can do superheroes a lot better than rules written specifically for them. Once I got into playing Hero/Champions I have never looked back at another rules system for any genre. Why should I have to learn a new rules system to play a new genre? I shouldn't. The one thing that Hero System lacks is third party support, which there are a few companies that are actively supporting the system. I know this because I freelance for one of them. ;)

The question I have is can these other rules systems be as flexible and cover all these other genres without house rules? Nope, they can't. The world I'm working on for publication features many genres as a cohesive whole and none of the other systems, besides GURPS, would work for it. I read the common complaints in this thread about Champions/Hero System and what people experience with Hero is true of any other system. I've run and played with over 35 rules systems in my 26 years of gaming. I have always come back to Hero because it's a solid system and I can do anything I want with it. You can't say the same thing about the other systems put into the erroneous poll. I'll end with, "Make mine Hero!"

Morcant
12-09-2009, 06:39 AM
The GM rolled doubles and doubles etc etc until he one hit and killed Doomsday with Pa Kent. great story, effing terrible system with no common sense. A Generous Str of 2 took out Str 27 and Body 25 Doomsday

Did the GM ever consider playing Powerball that week?

Even taking his good luck into account, the default rule is that unless otherwise stated, all combat in DC is considered to be Bashing, meaning that characters cannot go below 0 Body, which would mean they are just unconscious. Unless Pa Kent was actually trying to kill Doomsday, he wouldn't. And even if Pa Kent were trying to kill Doomsday, the GM could have used Doomsday's Hero Points to either boost his Opposing or Resistance Value, or even negate the damage after the RAPs were calculated with Last Ditch Defense.

Webhead
12-09-2009, 08:10 PM
Did the GM ever consider playing Powerball that week?

Even taking his good luck into account, the default rule is that unless otherwise stated, all combat in DC is considered to be Bashing, meaning that characters cannot go below 0 Body, which would mean they are just unconscious. Unless Pa Kent was actually trying to kill Doomsday, he wouldn't. And even if Pa Kent were trying to kill Doomsday, the GM could have used Doomsday's Hero Points to either boost his Opposing or Resistance Value, or even negate the damage after the RAPs were calculated with Last Ditch Defense.

Beyond even this, the GM could easily have resorted to common sense and relativistic consistency. It really doesn't matter how well Pa Kent rolls on fisticuffs against Doomsday, he is simply physically incapable of causing anything more than a blink of reaction from a character who can survive mountains being thrown upon him. This is an instance where gamers take the mechanics too literally.

To use another slightly more exaggerated example, if Han Solo (somehow) walked up to a Star Destroyer and punched it, rolling a bazillion damage, would it somehow result in the destruction of the ship? Certainly not! A human punching through several feet of steel is just not reasonably possible. Any punch, no matter how "damaging", would still accomplish nothing but putting small dents in the hull and leaving him with a sore fist.

Another good example comes from the 3e PHB on the subject of trying to cut a rope with a club. It goes on to say that it really doesn't matter how much damage the club does or how many hit points the rope has, you just can't cut something with a blunt object (unless you spend several hours attempting to wear through the fibers with sheer friction, but that's a different set of circumstances).

It's sometimes easy to forget common sense in the face of so many game mechanics which might lead you toward less logical conclusions.
--- Merged from Double Post ---

I've played DC Heroes from Mayfair, MSH from TSR, Heroes Unlimited, V&V, and Champions. Out of those three, I've found that Champions can do superheroes a lot better than rules written specifically for them. Once I got into playing Hero/Champions I have never looked back at another rules system for any genre. Why should I have to learn a new rules system to play a new genre? I shouldn't. The one thing that Hero System lacks is third party support, which there are a few companies that are actively supporting the system. I know this because I freelance for one of them. ;)

The question I have is can these other rules systems be as flexible and cover all these other genres without house rules? Nope, they can't. The world I'm working on for publication features many genres as a cohesive whole and none of the other systems, besides GURPS, would work for it. I read the common complaints in this thread about Champions/Hero System and what people experience with Hero is true of any other system. I've run and played with over 35 rules systems in my 26 years of gaming. I have always come back to Hero because it's a solid system and I can do anything I want with it. You can't say the same thing about the other systems put into the erroneous poll. I'll end with, "Make mine Hero!"

HERO/Champions seemed like an interesting game and it was fun to play under and very flexible but I found it too mechanically involved to be something that I would want to GM for. I have encountered several games like that. Much like GURPS, to make it do what it does best requires a great deal of statistical prep time...prep time that I don't really have.

Richard Littles
12-10-2009, 04:16 AM
HERO/Champions seemed like an interesting game and it was fun to play under and very flexible but I found it too mechanically involved to be something that I would want to GM for. I have encountered several games like that. Much like GURPS, to make it do what it does best requires a great deal of statistical prep time...prep time that I don't really have.

Hero/Champions has no more prep time than other games out on the market. The mechanics are simple and easy to grasp for actual playing that are also unified. The only time where mechanics is involved to the point you mention is in character creation. I don't quite understand what you mean by statistical prep time. All games require prep time.

Soft Serve
12-10-2009, 04:13 PM
%81 = MSHRPG
%0 = H&S by Tim Kirk.

...wow. I didn't think MSHRPG was that popular actually.

Webhead
12-10-2009, 10:27 PM
I don't quite understand what you mean by statistical prep time. All games require prep time.

Character creation is what I'm referring to. Character creation is a bit more involved in HERO than most of my preferred systems because of all the options and tweakable bits available which tends to make it lengthier.

You're absolutely correct that all game require prep time. Some, due to the precision, detail or thoroughness of game mechanics, require more of that prep time be dedicated to "building" within the rules. There's nothing wrong with that in general. I simply prefer less time devoted to preparing the game mechanics than to the non-mechanical components.

I also have much less free time in general these days, working full-time, being a husband and father of 4 (2 of which are newborns). So if I have to decide between dedicating 6 hours to prepare an adventure or 3 hours, I'll naturally favor the latter. Back in my college "glory days", I wouldn't have even blinked at the thought of spending a dozen hours whipping up NPC statistics. I don't really have that luxury anymore.

That has nothing to do with how "good" or "bad" of a game system I think HERO is. As I said, it was actually pretty fun to play in when a friend was running it for us (and I love the supers genre anyway). It is simply that, as a rules system, it requires a more significant investment of time and effort than I am willing or able to give it as a GM. Much like GURPS.

Marvel Master
12-12-2009, 10:03 AM
Character creation is what I'm referring to. Character creation is a bit more involved in HERO than most of my preferred systems because of all the options and tweakable bits available which tends to make it lengthier.

That has nothing to do with how "good" or "bad" of a game system I think HERO is. As I said, it was actually pretty fun to play in when a friend was running it for us (and I love the supers genre anyway). It is simply that, as a rules system, it requires a more significant investment of time and effort than I am willing or able to give it as a GM. Much like GURPS.

This was my point exactly. The HERO's system is way too involved and since I have other responsibilities, I simply don't have the time nor inclination to play it.

That being said, I didn't like it when I did have the time to do it. When I sit down at a game, if at all possible, I'd like to play the game the day I create my character. I've never been one for making a character for the sake of just making a character and rolling some dice. I'd like to see the character come to life once they're made. This all goes back to being an actual roleplayer than a roll-player.

Don't get me wrong. If that's your bag then do your thang chicken wang. It's just that for me personally, I'm not down. That's why the classic Marvel system was a great balance of creativity and flexibility. A character can be made in about 45 minutes to an hour and you'll be ready to go. This same system was actually used in Gamma World 3e (I think it was 3e :confused:. Been a while).

The DC exponential system....not so much. I still can have fun playing the game but as has been pointed out, there are some definite weaknesses in how it was created.

Morcant
12-12-2009, 01:34 PM
Well, there are weaknesses in Marvel's system.

An example: if you have two combatants, both with a Fighting of Incredible (40), a Strength of Incredible (30) and both have Incredible (40) Body Armor, there's no way they can damage each other with direct blows, no matter how high the attack roll is, because you need the damage to be at least the same as the Body Armor. They would have to resort to using scenery around them, or using charging combat.

In DC Heroes, if you have two combatants with a Dexterity of 10, Strength of 7, a Body of 5 and Skin Armor of 5, a roll of 11 would not deal any damage, but a roll of 13 or more would result in at least 2 RAPs of damage. Even higher results could theoretically result in a knockout blow.

Webhead
12-12-2009, 02:34 PM
Of all the supers RPGs I've played/GMed thus far, I think M&M comes the closest to being the right combination of options, speed and playability. It's also a game where high levels of mechanical detail are possible but not necessary. You can spend 10 minutes making a character or 2 hours and you'll end up with something just as viable and fun to play.

On the subject of "have you played...?", I've been looking more closely into BASH: Ultimate Edition since its recent release. Has anyone played BASH before in any edition? What were your impressions? What were its strengths/weaknesses?

Ideally, I want a supers RPG that is quick and easy for newbies to jump into and whip up a character but which has enough customization and "four-color, rock 'em-sock 'em" feel to be considered an full-blooded supers game. Any idea if BASH manages this?

Marvel Master
12-13-2009, 10:17 PM
Well, there are weaknesses in Marvel's system.

An example: if you have two combatants, both with a Fighting of Incredible (40), a Strength of Incredible (30) and both have Incredible (40) Body Armor, there's no way they can damage each other with direct blows, no matter how high the attack roll is, because you need the damage to be at least the same as the Body Armor. They would have to resort to using scenery around them, or using charging combat.

Ladies and gentlemen, school is now in session. :)

There are a lot of different things that can happen in a scenario like this which makes your representation fallacious.

First and foremost, a GM would be responsible for balancing things out so this scenario is extremely unlikely if the GM is even mediocre.

Second, Incredible is never 30. That's Remarkable. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming that's a typo.

But let's say that this was the situation. I can list five things that throw a little salt in this scenario:

1. The surroundings which you mentioned before (not counting this as mine of course).

2. Whether they had more than just brute strength. Other powers to consider which they almost always do.

3. If one of them pulls off a Power Stunt that instantly switches the balance of the fight.

4. If a power weakness is suddenly revealed.

5. If they have Martial Arts A or D.

6. If one actually talks his assailant out of fighting.

DC's system has some interesting concepts and can be a fun game to play, but again, too many charts to consult to do a simple action. One chart is cool. Two for EVERYTHING is silly to me.

Someone also gave the example of Pa Kent rolling lucky enough to damage Doomsday. We know the likelihood of that is rather low (and according to the story, it happened) BUT he could probably give Batman a run for his money which is, again, silly.

In Marvel, if it's more than one rank, it's impossible. This prevents Aunt May from lifting cars on a Red FEAT and keeps some semblance of reality in the game.

Ultimately, whatever system you use, make sure it goes with your storytelling style. If the story is wack, I don't care what system you're using. The game session is going to be wack, the campaign is going to be wack (if it ever gets going), and people will blame the system instead of the GM who is actually the culprit.

Webhead
12-14-2009, 12:26 AM
...Someone also gave the example of Pa Kent rolling lucky enough to damage Doomsday. We know the likelihood of that is rather low (and according to the story, it happened) BUT he could probably give Batman a run for his money which is, again, silly...

I'm also fond of the D&D example of the 1st-level Rogue assassin attempting to kill the 5th-level Fighter in his sleep:

Let's be generous to the Rogue and assume that the Fighter only has a Constitution of 12 (+1 bonus) and textbook average Hit Points of 37, while the Rogue has a Strength of 12 (+1 bonus) and successfully sneaks up on the Fighter while he slumbers. He wants to quickly and quietly slit his throat with a dagger (1d4 damage), the weapon of choice when it comes to assassination, and, thanks to the Fighter being in a "Helpless" state, he gets an automatic critical thanks to "Coup de Grace" and gets to add his Sneak Attack bonus (+1d6 damage) on top of that. Rolling straight average damage, the Rogue inflicts 10 points (not even a third of the Fighter's total hits). This prompts a DC 20 Fortitude "save or die" which the Fighter has a 30% chance of succeeding. If the save succeeds, surprise is now lost and the Rogue has to resort to going toe-to-toe with the Fighter to finish him off.

But for the sake of experimentation, let's say that the first stab doesn't wake the Fighter and that the Rogue can slice his neck again in the following rounds. Each round, he does 10 more points of average damage and prompts the same DC 20 Fort save. Assuming successful saves, the Rogue would have to stab the Fighter in the throat, by surprise, 5 times to actually kill him (or 4 times and hope that he bleeds out).

Only if the Rogue rolled max damage on his first attack (a 1% chance) would he guarantee a one-hit kill, thanks to increasing the save DC beyond the Fighter's capability.

It might be a slightly odd-ball scenario, but it just helps to demonstrate that game mechanics and logic don't always play on the same field. Don't be afraid to make your own judgement calls once in a while, instead of letting the rules do it for you.

Morcant
12-14-2009, 06:31 AM
Ladies and gentlemen, school is now in session. :)

Let's get it on!


There are a lot of different things that can happen in a scenario like this which makes your representation fallacious.My scenario involves two combatants just using their fists. Nothing more.


First and foremost, a GM would be responsible for balancing things out so this scenario is extremely unlikely if the GM is even mediocre.

Second, Incredible is never 30. That's Remarkable. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming that's a typo.Yes, it was a typo.


But let's say that this was the situation. I can list five things that throw a little salt in this scenario:

1. The surroundings which you mentioned before (not counting this as mine of course).

2. Whether they had more than just brute strength. Other powers to consider which they almost always do.

3. If one of them pulls off a Power Stunt that instantly switches the balance of the fight.

4. If a power weakness is suddenly revealed.

5. If they have Martial Arts A or D.

6. If one actually talks his assailant out of fighting.Those are all valid, but I gave a specific scenario, and unless the combatants had anything you mentioned, it's impossible that either would receive any damage in the fight.


DC's system has some interesting concepts and can be a fun game to play, but again, too many charts to consult to do a simple action. One chart is cool. Two for EVERYTHING is silly to me.I think you are overstating this. The fact is, both games require charts, period. If you have to consult one chart already, I don't see the big deal with two. If you spend enough time with either game, you don't even need to look at the chart(s) continuously, especially if dealing with the same combatants.


Someone also gave the example of Pa Kent rolling lucky enough to damage Doomsday. We know the likelihood of that is rather low (and according to the story, it happened) BUT he could probably give Batman a run for his money which is, again, silly.Aunt May knocking out Spider-Man with one punch is silly too, but it could happen.


In Marvel, if it's more than one rank, it's impossible. This prevents Aunt May from lifting cars on a Red FEAT and keeps some semblance of reality in the game.DC has genre rules for limiting pushing actions, so you can avoid the "feeble old man lifting the car" scenario.


Ultimately, whatever system you use, make sure it goes with your storytelling style. If the story is wack, I don't care what system you're using. The game session is going to be wack, the campaign is going to be wack (if it ever gets going), and people will blame the system instead of the GM who is actually the culprit.Use the system you like. :)

BASHMAN
01-19-2010, 08:43 PM
Of all the supers RPGs I've played/GMed thus far, I think M&M comes the closest to being the right combination of options, speed and playability. It's also a game where high levels of mechanical detail are possible but not necessary. You can spend 10 minutes making a character or 2 hours and you'll end up with something just as viable and fun to play.

On the subject of "have you played...?", I've been looking more closely into BASH: Ultimate Edition since its recent release. Has anyone played BASH before in any edition? What were your impressions? What were its strengths/weaknesses?

Ideally, I want a supers RPG that is quick and easy for newbies to jump into and whip up a character but which has enough customization and "four-color, rock 'em-sock 'em" feel to be considered an full-blooded supers game. Any idea if BASH manages this?

I can say that it sounds like you were DESCRIBING it- but of course I am biased to like it, since that's what I designed it to do. In the meantime, I am happy to answer any questions you have about it.

You may also find the preview, podcasts, and reviews helpful here (http://www.bashrpg.com/BASH%21).

Dr.Dead
01-19-2010, 09:01 PM
I have never played any of those games before

AslanC
01-19-2010, 11:14 PM
I would like to give my thumbs up to BASH! as well. It has just enough M&M/Champions style crunchiness with a fast play almost freeform approached like the old FASERIP Marvel :)

Webhead
01-20-2010, 12:04 AM
I would like to give my thumbs up to BASH! as well. It has just enough M&M/Champions style crunchiness with a fast play almost freeform approached like the old FASERIP Marvel :)

Hmmm...consider my interest piqued!

AslanC
01-20-2010, 12:33 AM
You can follow my blog (http://earthalpha.blogspot.com/) as I am currently doing a Bronze Age (set in 1984) campaign using BASH! and putting up NPCs and various thoughts on the system there.

Or ask questions and either I or for sure Bashman can answer them, he wrote the darn thing after all ;)

Dr.Volt
08-03-2010, 06:12 PM
I just got BASH UE myself. Great game!! Btw, I think the link to your blog is not working.

Thanks for promoting a great game!

AslanC
08-03-2010, 06:14 PM
Old link ;)

Here is the new link (http://zenithcomics.blogspot.com/)

Starphoenix26
08-26-2010, 02:30 PM
With the near limitless combinations of powers and quirks, why would you ever want to limit yourself to something that has 40 years of history already. In my campaigns I enforce a strict policy of no knock-offs. The fact that people have some weird desire to play pre-made characters is what is going to sink the Marvel/DC MMORPG's coming out.

Absolutely NOT true.
you can create original concepts and still be a viable part of an established campaign. my groups done it for 27 years now. it'sd a matter of the creativity within your group's players.

---------- Post added at 01:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:28 PM ----------


Well, there are weaknesses in Marvel's system.

An example: if you have two combatants, both with a Fighting of Incredible (40), a Strength of Incredible (30) and both have Incredible (40) Body Armor, there's no way they can damage each other with direct blows, no matter how high the attack roll is, because you need the damage to be at least the same as the Body Armor. They would have to resort to using scenery around them, or using charging combat.

In DC Heroes, if you have two combatants with a Dexterity of 10, Strength of 7, a Body of 5 and Skin Armor of 5, a roll of 11 would not deal any damage, but a roll of 13 or more would result in at least 2 RAPs of damage. Even higher results could theoretically result in a knockout blow.

But in your example you could incur knockback or stun. and that's the point: sometimes you have to use other options than direct force to incur damage or knock an opponent out.

froglegg
05-26-2011, 07:03 PM
I loved Marvel Super Heroes!

John

---------- Post added at 08:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:35 PM ----------


Ladies and gentlemen, school is now in session. :)

There are a lot of different things that can happen in a scenario like this which makes your representation fallacious.

First and foremost, a GM would be responsible for balancing things out so this scenario is extremely unlikely if the GM is even mediocre.

Second, Incredible is never 30. That's Remarkable. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming that's a typo.

But let's say that this was the situation. I can list five things that throw a little salt in this scenario:

1. The surroundings which you mentioned before (not counting this as mine of course).

2. Whether they had more than just brute strength. Other powers to consider which they almost always do.

3. If one of them pulls off a Power Stunt that instantly switches the balance of the fight.

4. If a power weakness is suddenly revealed.

5. If they have Martial Arts A or D.

6. If one actually talks his assailant out of fighting.

DC's system has some interesting concepts and can be a fun game to play, but again, too many charts to consult to do a simple action. One chart is cool. Two for EVERYTHING is silly to me.

Someone also gave the example of Pa Kent rolling lucky enough to damage Doomsday. We know the likelihood of that is rather low (and according to the story, it happened) BUT he could probably give Batman a run for his money which is, again, silly.

In Marvel, if it's more than one rank, it's impossible. This prevents Aunt May from lifting cars on a Red FEAT and keeps some semblance of reality in the game.

Ultimately, whatever system you use, make sure it goes with your storytelling style. If the story is wack, I don't care what system you're using. The game session is going to be wack, the campaign is going to be wack (if it ever gets going), and people will blame the system instead of the GM who is actually the culprit.



Ouch!
You rock MM!

Maxxx
10-11-2011, 07:52 PM
With the near limitless combinations of powers and quirks, why would you ever want to limit yourself to something that has 40 years of history already. In my campaigns I enforce a strict policy of no knock-offs. The fact that people have some weird desire to play pre-made characters is what is going to sink the Marvel/DC MMORPG's coming out.
Couldnt disagree more!

Golden Age Superhero
05-10-2012, 08:43 AM
In the trunk of a car with their mouths duct-taped?

LOL. Couldn't get much into Aberrant. Campaign setting was just too cynical for a superhero game.

---------- Post added at 09:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:37 AM ----------


1st Marvel Superheroes
2nd Villains & Vigilantes
3rd Champions (And still Champion!!! of the Superhero RPGs!!!)
4th DC Heroes
5th Heroes Unlimited
6th Mutants & Masterminds
7th Silver Age Sentinels
8th+ & a few others not worth mentioning


IMOHO


QM

Then why isn't Champions no.1?

nijineko
07-20-2013, 05:57 PM
learning curve? amount of math involved?

magic-rhyme
02-08-2014, 07:53 PM
IF you own Mutants and master minds
do you really need any other game system

I hope this was written tongue-in-cheek after my early lament about M&M fanboys. If this was indeed tongue-in-cheek as I suspect, then well done!


I am surprised that superworld was mentioned. I thought nobody but me ever ran it.

I loved that game when used for the right campaign. It worked well when dealing with lower powered superheroes, such as everyone but Dr. Manhatten in the Watchmen limited series or most of the superhumans in the Wildcards anthology (the first book of the Wildcards series), but it didn't seem to handle the higher power levels very well.


BTo use another slightly more exaggerated example, if Han Solo (somehow) walked up to a Star Destroyer and punched it, rolling a bazillion damage, would it somehow result in the destruction of the ship? Certainly not! A human punching through several feet of steel is just not reasonably possible. Any punch, no matter how "damaging", would still accomplish nothing but putting small dents in the hull and leaving him with a sore fist.

Villains & Vigilantes handled that quite well. There was a minimum amount of damage that had to be accomplished before one could do anything more than scratch something. Since Han Solo would have to be wearing Tony Stark's Iron Man suit to get past that minimum, he could never do more than muss up the paint on a Star Destroyer without serious augmentation.

Demon
02-09-2014, 12:05 PM
Necessary Evil and Champions are my go to SHgames now. FASERIP was and still is a fun diversion.