PDA

View Full Version : What do you know about 4th Edition



ronpyatt
08-17-2007, 01:33 PM
What did they change?

How did they make it better, faster, and dynamic from level 1 to 30?

What are these character roles they're talking about?

Is it true that spellcasters don't have to stop casting spells?

What do you know?!?!

PhishStyx
08-17-2007, 02:26 PM
I can't say much about the game itself, but if it's as boring as their video presentation of it and as insulting as the teaser, gamers'll walk away before they even roll a die.

Moritz
08-17-2007, 02:47 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sqvNhlDgEs

It's even better than this???

ronpyatt
08-17-2007, 05:40 PM
as insulting as the teaser, gamers'll walk away before they even roll a die.
In what way was it insulting?

Moritz
08-17-2007, 05:48 PM
When I saw the trailer, and the rendition of 3.5 (2003), of how the gamers were having to look up grappling, then I felt as if D&D/WotC was saying, "yep, we screwed you with a difficult product (both versions 3.0 and 3.5), made a ton of money off you, and now we've created our new line of toys that are so much better, you're gonna be suckers and buy this and in 10 years, we're gonna run commercials showing just how bad our prior product (4.0 and 4.5) was and how much of a sucker the buyer is." - and that's when I closed the web page.

PhishStyx
08-17-2007, 08:03 PM
That's pretty much it, right there.

WOTC just came out and said, "we know we produced crap, and we know you know it. And you bought it anyway! We love you guys because you're dumb, and you'll run en masse to buy the next load of crap we produce!"

I know others' opinions of D&D differ, and I'm sure others' opinions of the teaser and presentation will differ. That's justwhat I got out of it; however, I thought it was kind of funny in that I haven't played D&D in a long time.

ronpyatt
08-17-2007, 08:15 PM
Really? I didn't get that out of it, but I suppose it's true. It just seemed like they were making fun of themselves, the rest were issues that came up after the fact. I identified with each of those groups.

Maybe you're right. I usually ignore insults, even the ones I see on this board. So, it may be just from habit that I don't go gnashing my teeth.

What I see is that they have changed D&D enough to call it 4.0. Insult or no, those guys fixed things they missed the last go around. Things that I would love to see fixed from prior versions.

The biggest for me is the spellcaster's battery.
:eek:

Moritz
08-17-2007, 09:32 PM
Spellcaster's battery?

Is that like the Mana bar in any video game that involves spellcasters, or the mana stuff in the unearthed arcana?

rabkala
08-17-2007, 09:53 PM
Spellcaster's battery?

Is that like the Mana bar in any video game that involves spellcasters, or the mana stuff in the unearthed arcana?

Yes! The 4.5 edition, which is due out October of 2011, will be strictly a computer game with as much imagination as Evercrack or WorldOfWarcrack.

rabkala
08-17-2007, 10:30 PM
Has anyone noticed the close connection of 4 and $ on your keyboard? Coincidence, I think not!

Zelgadas
08-18-2007, 09:49 AM
Alright, let's settle down here a little, guys. I understand that we're all upset about 3.5 being "invalidated" (which, by the way, it won't be; you can still play it, and there's seven years of material out for it. Also, some of the supplements they release will be edition-proof, with no edition-specific mechanics, so you can use them with 3.5. And really, how many more feats and prestige classes do we need?), but let's not forget that any good RPG is a work in progress. Seriously, try and create a game and get it right on the first try. I've tried, several times, and I always have to go back to the drawing board. I always come up with a better way to do something that didn't quite work. It's the same with D&D.

I don't think that WotC is saying "thanks for being dumb and buying a shoddy product". I think they're saying, "we made the best product we could at the time, and there were problems with it. We're admitting that. Now we're making something better, and fixing those problems."

I realize that I probably sound like a corporate shill at this point. I promise I'm not. I'll be the first to admit that a lot of what WotC has put out hasn't been, from my perspective, worth buying. Third-party publishers, like Malhavoc Press, have been a lot more daring with the d20 System, with more spectacular results (I think that <i>Iron Heroes</i> is a far superior product to core D&D, personally). However, <i>Star Wars Saga Edition</i> has been my favorite d20 product to date, largely because it was so daring with the system. It changes a lot, with great results. WotC has said that that game was, in some ways, a method for them to test mechanics for 4E, and if that's the case, I think it'll be great. So that's where I'm coming from.

Moritz
08-19-2007, 08:24 AM
Has anyone noticed the close connection of 4 and $ on your keyboard? Coincidence, I think not!

OMFG it's a conspiracy !!!!!!!!!!

ROFL

By the way, the acronyms you see above will be featured in the 4.5 and 5th editions of D&D to better simulate the video game environment.

Moritz
08-19-2007, 08:29 AM
I realize that I probably sound like a corporate shill at this point. I promise I'm not.

SHILL! SHILL! He's a plant, ban him, he'll be spewing WotC propaganda and converting the weak to a false god and making them give their money away freely.

wow, suddenly I'm reminded of some other organization.

Zelgadas,
It may sound like we're totally pissed off and having knee jerk reactions (no, not me, ever). But really, we're just making fun of the whole thing because one day we all know that we're gonna cave and drop a grand on these new books. And then wake up 4 months later and there'll be a whole new series of books that we've gotta have. It just never stops!
But really, it's all in good fun and making light of the whole situation.

RealmsDM
08-19-2007, 08:37 AM
First let me just say that, yeah, I will cave & get the new books. But only out of a love for the game & the genre. I'll pick up the first 3 core books (PHB, DMG, MM) and flip thru.

That said, I think I'm going to become one of those "old edition" players- with my edition being 3.5. I've invested money, sure, we all have- but the time is what gets me. My current "main" group has played since 1994. We've run only 4 campaigns in that time. Transfering our 2e world to 3e was a labor of love. I just dont have it in me to do it again.

I have a nice collection of 3e books that suit my style & tastes- and now I can round out my hard copy collection when these 3e books go up for sale on Ebay in a year or so.

Eh, I might drop by a local gaming store or hang out (there are a bunch here in NYC) and try to snag a 4e game- but I'm gonna keep it the way it is for the time being.

Ed Zachary
08-19-2007, 09:10 AM
Wow, 4th edition is here... let's all go out and buy the new books now!

By the way, if anyone want to sell off their collection of used and obsolete 3.5 books, just send me a PM.

Zelgadas
08-19-2007, 10:11 AM
SHILL! SHILL! He's a plant, ban him, he'll be spewing WotC propaganda and converting the weak to a false god and making them give their money away freely.


Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!


Zelgadas,
It may sound like we're totally pissed off and having knee jerk reactions (no, not me, ever). But really, we're just making fun of the whole thing because one day we all know that we're gonna cave and drop a grand on these new books. And then wake up 4 months later and there'll be a whole new series of books that we've gotta have. It just never stops!
But really, it's all in good fun and making light of the whole situation.

Understood. I'll let you guys have your fun, then. ;)

PhishStyx
08-19-2007, 01:55 PM
. . .we all know that we're gonna cave and drop a grand on these new books.

Heh, I haven't bought a new D&D book since 1987 (well, maybe it was 1988). I did, however, pick up an early printing of the original Fiend Folio not long after my 1st edition Manual of the Planes if that counts.

Albeehotep
08-19-2007, 03:25 PM
its almost like the dentist or a md viset it sucks but you end up going anyway
buying the 4th ed will be like that

Ed Zachary
08-19-2007, 04:20 PM
Usually there is a reason for the release of a new edition, like a fatal flaw in the system.

Are there any fatal flaws in 3.5?

Or is it just time to sell new books and to release a movie?

Zelgadas
08-19-2007, 05:48 PM
Usually there is a reason for the release of a new edition, like a fatal flaw in the system.

Are there any fatal flaws in 3.5?

Or is it just time to sell new books and to release a movie?

I'm not sure a fatal flaw is required; if any previous version of any RPG were fatally flawed, then newer editions probably never would have been released in the first place because they would have just gone out of print. I got an RPG a while back (I won't name names) that was, indeed, fatally flawed, and the company has long since gone out of business. No single edition of D&D has been fatally flawed; they've all been playable and, by all accounts, they've each been fun in their own ways.

3.5 is not fatally flawed, but it is flawed in some significant ways. Grapple checks suck. Attacks of opportunity can be confusing and easy to misinterpret. Iterative attacks bog the game down at higher levels. The list goes on. Is it still playable? Sure. Is it still fun? Absolutely. Is a new edition needed? That's a bit harder to answer; it might be for the individual consumer to decide. A number of people on this thread seem to think that it's not warranted, but that they'll end up getting it anyway.

I'm not sure that I think a new edition is necessary per se; I think 3.5 has a lot of things going for it. I am, however, very excited about 4E, and I think they'll fix a lot of the flaws that are present in 3.5. That said, after a year or so of people playing the game, I'm sure that flaws will crop up in 4E. It's the nature of the beast, you simply can't make a perfect game at release because you can't anticipate everything, and there's only so much that a couple dozen people playtesting for eight months or so will reveal. I'm sure there will be a 5E that addresses the issues in 4E. And we'll be right back here, having the same conversation then, seven to ten years from now. ;)

Moritz
08-20-2007, 09:36 AM
Usually there is a reason for the release of a new edition, like a fatal flaw in the system.

Are there any fatal flaws in 3.5?

Or is it just time to sell new books and to release a movie?

I choose Option Number 2.

Albeit, it was nice looking at Thora in the D&D movie.

InfoStorm
08-20-2007, 10:40 AM
Well, from conversations I've had with various "wizards" at previous Gen Cons (4+ years ago, when I was able to go), it was in the business plan all along to release 4.0, but I thought it was still going to be a few more years. So what if "we've run out of ideas". GREAT no more tulse to assimilate. Us DM's can finally get a grip on the game system with it's many many options and play for a while.

Their releasing 4th so shortly after "the end of the current production line" IS done for income purposes. They need to spend longer in development and turn out the product better, so that they don't have another 3.5 event. Ok, we don't know how long they have been workin on the 4.0 ruleset, but maybe we'll find out. I'd hate to think a couple years of 3.5 was just a testbed for 4.0.

P.S. I hope you like the Tome of Battle supliment, cause it sounds like Fighters will have more abilities like those found in that book. But I could be wrong.

Farcaster
08-20-2007, 12:22 PM
Has anyone noticed the close connection of 4 and $ on your keyboard? Coincidence, I think not!

Ah, but there's always been creative ways to play with the various publisher's names. TSR was frequently referred to as T$R, and they produced far fewer supplements to my recollection. And, I personally liked to call WotC - Wizards of the Cost.

On a more serious note, I don't feel bilked by Wizards. I'm glad that they are keeping the business afloat. TSR didn't and for years there was nothing. WotC puts out a ton of products because their target market is so extremely small, comparatively speaking. But, by so doing, they produce the occasional gem that I actually buy, and they make the revenue they need off the rest of the chaff.

I'm excited to see what they do with the next edition, but I certainly don't feel compelled to upgrade if it is utter crap. I have all that I need to keep running my D&D games in the current edition ad infinitum. But, if it is a smoother system, I'll eagerly pick up my copies like a good fan-boy.

starfalconkd
08-20-2007, 01:22 PM
The computer program looks like it might be a good dm aid, I just hope they don't allow too much of the game to revolve around it.

rabkala
08-20-2007, 07:06 PM
The computer program looks like it might be a good dm aid, I just hope they don't allow too much of the game to revolve around it.

I can see the death of many PBP, PBEM, and chat games if the software is as good as they claim.




Albeit, it was nice looking at Thora in the D&D movie.

Mmmm...Sweet bouncy goodness.


I'm glad that they are keeping the business afloat. TSR didn't and for years there was nothing. WotC puts out a ton of products because their target market is so extremely small, comparatively speaking. But, by so doing, they produce the occasional gem that I actually buy, and they make the revenue they need off the rest of the chaff.

Well if everyone had embraced Buck Rogers and Red Steele, TSR would have stayed afloat for a few more years to torture us.

fmitchell
08-20-2007, 09:20 PM
WotC puts out a ton of products because their target market is so extremely small, comparatively speaking. But, by so doing, they produce the occasional gem that I actually buy, and they make the revenue they need off the rest of the chaff.

Ugh. I hate that business model, although I can't really argue it's unsuccessful, at least in the short term.

Somebody (Kenneth Hite? Robin Laws?) made the point that every game someone buys makes them less likely to buy another one, simply because most people have a fixed budget. Spewing forth low-quality supplements like $30-$40 hardback magazines will eventually try the patience of most gamers. I wonder if D&D 4 was in some ways a way to sustain interest.

I've also heard that WotC makes more money on D&D miniatures and novels than they do the actual game. Certainly the Star Wars minis bring in a mint, while the RPG ... not so much.

Then again, D&D is such a powerful brand name that I doubt any publisher with a modicum of business sense can truly go broke. (TSR had no business sense.)

FWIW, I intend to buy the D&D 4e PHB, probably used or heavily discounted, and probably stop there. I'm not really a D&D player, and certainly no DM; apart from the PHB I've bought (turning to bookshelf) five WotC D&D products, also used or heavily discounted: Manual of the Planes (which I later sold), Expanded Psionics Handbook, Monster Manual, Lords of Madness, and Tome of Magic. Each was mainly to satisfy my curiosity about something outside the SRD, or mentioned in a review.

Grimwell
08-21-2007, 12:25 AM
One important thing to note: The folks at Wizards are good people who go in to work each and every day to make things they hope we like. Wizards is not the Devil, and 4E is just another product in the cycle.

They run a business after all, and the fall of TSR should serve as a reminder that we do want the people who make our game to be mindful that they need to cover the bills and make a profit to keep the business alive.

New Edition Madness is common, sometimes valid, and often entertaining. We all get caught up in it from time to time, that's normal and understandable. That said, the tin-foil hat stuff is better left for tongue-in-cheek comments. :)

I don't mind that 4th edition was planned all along; so is 5th I'd wager. I think it's coming a little too soon, but that's life. I fully intend to weigh my purchase on the quality of what the folks at Wizards are working hard to deliver.

At the end of the day I don't want to see D&D die. Necessary steps. :P

Griffin2020
08-21-2007, 09:27 AM
One important thing to note: The folks at Wizards are good people who go in to work each and every day to make things they hope we like. Wizards is not the Devil, and 4E is just another product in the cycle.

I have some Christian Fundamentalist friends who would argue THAT point withy you.

Moritz
08-21-2007, 09:37 AM
I have some Christian Fundamentalist friends who would argue THAT point withy you.

I totally remember Pat Roberts in the 80's spewing about how D&D was the devil's work and that everyone involved with it would lose their immortal souls.

fmitchell
08-21-2007, 09:42 AM
Slightly off topic, but I revel in this quote by Jerry Falwell:


"The decline in American pride, patriotism, and piety can be directly attributed to the extensive reading of so-called 'science fiction' by our young people. This poisonous rot about creatures not of God's making, societies of 'aliens' without a good Christian among them, and raw sex between unhuman beings with three heads and God alone knows what sort of reproductive apparatus keeps our young people from realizing the true will of God."

--Jerry Falwell, "Can Our Young People Find God in the Pages of Trashy Magazines? No, Of Course Not!" Reader's Digest, Aug. 1985: p142-157

There's just no pleasing some people.

P.S. Oh, and let's not forget "Dark Dungeons" (http://www.humpin.org/mst3kdd/). (Sorry, I refuse to link to Jack Chick directly.)

Zelgadas
08-21-2007, 09:50 AM
Anyway, back to the topic at hand (what do you know about 4E), just in case anybody missed it, from Chris Perkins' Blog:



One of the most memorable ones was, "Will 4E have paladins that aren't lawful good?" The answer is yes. Hell, you can have evil paladins of Asmodeus in 4E. More on that later.

Moritz
08-21-2007, 09:52 AM
Oh ohoh, I wanna be a Paladin of Aphrodite. "Ladies, you may attend me now."

PhishStyx
08-21-2007, 12:07 PM
Jerry Falwell


Hey, at least you don't have to live in "his" town. Finding a group to game with under the shadow of Liberty University is blindingly awful.

Typhon
08-21-2007, 12:38 PM
Hey, at least you don't have to live in "his" town. Finding a group to game with under the shadow of Liberty University is blindingly awful.

Asmodeus?

Dimthar
08-21-2007, 01:38 PM
These are just educated guesses based on my extensive business training from recognized sources such as: “The Rich Dad, Poor Dad Series” and “The Apprentice”.

1) New Customers: WotC wants to appeal to a wider market, must likely their research gave them hints on how to attract younger generations grown under the videogame wing.

2) Current Customer Loyalty: Based on the comments above, whoever is a D&D GM/Player will end buying the new products, also must likely by now (if WotC did its homework), they will know that their design mistakes are not the main reason why “Older” players stop using/buying their product.

3) A simple #Players vs Age should easily illustrate where the money is for WotC with the D&D brand.

Personally, I don’t mind the introduction of the software, which I hope they will make for a Handheld version or better Windows mobile. I hope same as the “Core Books” they will have a Player & DM versions.

Miniatures, I never needed those, but if they will make our life easier, welcome.

Most of source books I buy anyway are “Campaign” related, like Forgotten Realms, so most of my inventory will not go obsolete.

PhishStyx
08-21-2007, 04:08 PM
Asmodeus?

Well, I have no doubt he and Jerry and Jack Chick will have a lot to discuss in their time together.

ronpyatt
09-27-2007, 10:55 AM
Now that the Warlock will be core and Fighters will specialized, and their assumption that the world is full of monstrous creatures and news travels slow, I think I'll enjoy 4th edition.

I wonder how multi-classing will change?

Farcaster
09-28-2007, 06:11 PM
Now that ... their assumption that the world is full of monstrous creatures and news travels slow, I think I'll enjoy 4th edition.


Another implication of this basic conceit of the world is that there is very little in the way of authority to deal with raiders and marauders, outbreaks of demon worship, rampaging monsters, deadly hauntings, or similar local problems. Settlements afflicted by troubles can only hope for a band of heroes to arrive and set things right. If there is a kingdom beyond the town’s walls, it’s still largely covered by unexplored forest and desolate hills where evil folk gather. The king’s soldiers might do a passable job of keeping the lands within a few miles of his castle free of monsters and bandits, but most of the realm’s outlying towns and villages are on their own.


I'm curious about this statement, because it doesn't seem to be in alignment with the feel of their chief campaign world for 4th edition, Forgotten Realms. Large swaths of Toril may indeed by untamed, but I've never had the impression from the novels or the source material that settlements are so isolated and kingdoms so impotent. And, adventures are dime a dozen, to say the least.

This is going to be a major paradigm shift for me at least.

fmitchell
09-29-2007, 12:02 AM
Another implication of this basic conceit of the world is that there is very little in the way of authority to deal with raiders and marauders, outbreaks of demon worship, rampaging monsters, deadly hauntings, or similar local problems.


This sounds just like the setup for Mike Mearls's Iron Heroes ... it's a dangerous world, every human settlement is under siege from the wildlands, and only Heroes are strong enough to make a difference.


I'm curious about this statement, because it doesn't seem to be in alignment with the feel of their chief campaign world for 4th edition, Forgotten Realms.

Either they're going to retcon wildly or focus on the edge of the wilderness.

But yeah, not everyone wants to play capital-H Heroes who come from nowhere and do extraordinary things. What about fantasy's many stories of unprepared but courageous common folk who nevertheless manage to thwart greater evils? Or, at the other end, what of the king's elite soldiers dispatched to deal with extraordinary threats? What about the entirety of "low fantasy", where the protagonists are ordinary people of an extraordinary world?

"The Most Popular RPG" needs to allow a wide range of play styles if it wants to keep the grognards. Banking solely on newbies and crossovers from MMORPGs seems risky to me.

Ed Zachary
09-29-2007, 05:33 AM
Now that the Warlock will be core and Fighters will specialized...

What is a Warlock, and what does that mean to be "core"?

What is the significance of a Fighter being "specialized"?


... their assumption that the world is full of monstrous creatures and news travels slow, I think I'll enjoy 4th edition.

Wow... just like all the previous editions!

ronpyatt
09-29-2007, 12:51 PM
What is a Warlock, and what does that mean to be "core"?

What is the significance of a Fighter being "specialized"?

Wow... just like all the previous editions!
I'll be nice and not take it like you meant it.

A Warlock is a spellcaster that doesn't run out of spells before the end of the day.
Fighters specialize in their weapon types (i.e., swords, hammers, axes, etc.) and develop their aptitude around their weapon.

Digital Arcanist
09-29-2007, 04:37 PM
Not just specializing in one weapon but one fighting style as well. Basically they are referring to adding stuff from the Tome of Battle to the PHB.

Ed Zachary
09-29-2007, 04:39 PM
I'll be nice and not take it like you meant it.

I asked a simple question to a comment by you that didn't make much sense to me.

I'll be nice and not take it like you meant it.


A Warlock is a spellcaster that doesn't run out of spells before the end of the day.

A spellcaster that never runs out of spells?

How does that work?


Fighters specialize in their weapon types (i.e., swords, hammers, axes, etc.) and develop their aptitude around their weapon.

They do that now, in 3.5 edition.

Digital Arcanist
09-29-2007, 04:44 PM
Warlock's don't cast spells...they summon hellfire and use Darkspeech so they have no spell progressions or a need to memorize spells.

The class is listed in Complete Arcane.

Ed Zachary
09-29-2007, 10:12 PM
Warlock's don't cast spells...they summon hellfire and use Darkspeech so they have no spell progressions or a need to memorize spells.

The class is listed in Complete Arcane.

Wow, that should be a core class. I think I'll sell all my 3.5 books on eBay and go 4.0.

I head down to my parents' basement and roll one up right now!

Digital Arcanist
09-29-2007, 11:24 PM
Wow, that should be a core class. I think I'll sell all my 3.5 books on eBay and go 4.0.

I head down to my parents' basement and roll one up right now!


Are you trying to be insulting?

Ed Zachary
09-30-2007, 05:41 AM
Are you trying to be insulting?

Just replying to Ron, who saw something that was never intended. He assumed a sarcastic remark where it did not exist. His comment did not make sense, so I asked him for a clarification.

1) I did not know what a Warlock was. It seems that he gave me
baloney answer.

2) I still don't get what changes there will be for a Fighter with Specialization.

3) A land full of monsters... that sounds like every single older version of D&D.

rabkala
09-30-2007, 10:55 AM
I saw it much like Ron did. If that was not your intent, no harm no foul. It doesn't seem to be a reason to start a fiery holy war. It is easy to misinterpret the written word with a small change of perspective. That could be the reason a simple bible verse can be seen 20 different ways from 20 different people. It is also the reason that there are so many ways to play a game like D&D.

I think you were given the stock WoTC answer, not B-O-L-O-G-N-A (pork, beef, or chicken) !

Core is MM1, DMG, and PH only. Every other supplemental book is not core.

Warlocks are the decedents of people whom had intimate dealings with extra-planar beings like demons and devils in the distant past. Their bloodline is infused with arcane power. This huge reserve of mystical energy is never gone. Warlocks have specialized invocations which allow them to focus the wild energy of his soul and the world around him. It is as if they have increasingly powerful spell-like abilities, but not spells. While often maligned by some for their seeming power, they lack versatility and access to many meta-magic feats like their counterparts.

The fighter is very skilled with many weapons currently. In the future they will only be barely passable with this great assortment of weapons. They will specialize in one (or a small number of them) weapon and one fighting style (much like the fighting style feats found in the complete series). The specialization will open up far greater power in terms of damage potential and interesting maneuvers (like many of the newer fighter types in the supplemental material like tome of battle) that an untrained or less trained individual could never attain. A person who has cut themselves off to only core material will have a more difficult time understanding these differences.

The description of the world is straight from WoTC. It would seem they want to imply with mood a more dangerous uncommunicative and monstrous world that many play with currently. A world that is less friendly than the current popularly envisioned version of FR.

Ed Zachary
09-30-2007, 10:53 PM
We had our weekly Sunday Evening Game today. Four couples met at one of our homes and we had a cook out before and while playing. Plenty of beer and wine too. We started a bit early since this may be the last great weekend of the year. We played outside until about 9:00. The game is very character driven. There was no need for any classes, races, weapons, spells or anything else beyond the core rules. The only props we had were one set of the three core books, some dice, and character sheets.

We had some very good DMing (by Ghezryln), and good role playing by all. All seven of our characters played off each other well. The world was as described earlier; wild and full of monsters, and slow communication except by spell within temples and guilds. Our games are very good with just the core books and 3.5 rules, so I guess that's why I see no reason to look forward to 4.0 or any rules changes.

So that leaves me wondering... what is it in 4.0 that would make the game any better? We sure as heck don't need any more classes, races, weapons, skills, feats or whatever. If you have a character driven game that emphasizes role play, you don't need rules changes or more core material.

Digital Arcanist
10-01-2007, 01:07 AM
4.0 comes in 4 parts and a rules change is just one part. Furthermore, its not necessarily a changing of the rules but a streamlining of the system as well as addressing player needs.

Its great that you have all your needs met, but others do not and WotC are doing their best meet the needs of ALL the players.

There are presentations on YouTube and the WotC sites that detail everything that will be included in 4.0.

Ed Zachary
10-01-2007, 04:22 AM
4.0 comes in 4 parts and a rules change is just one part. Furthermore, its not necessarily a changing of the rules but a streamlining of the system as well as addressing player needs.

Then it sounds more like a 3.6 edition.

Grinnen Baeritt
10-01-2007, 09:12 AM
I'd have to say that it doesn't matter how steamlined they make the system... it won't be long before a supplement introduces a feat/class or whatever that breaks that system.

Being one of the orignal playtesters of 3rd edition I was hoping that they would have streamlined the number of classes (down to four) but make it relatively easy to customize the characters to produce the original classes.

They (WOTC) didn't. What they did do was allow the flood gates to be held wide open to every power gamer/rules lawyer to exploit who could afford the over-priced supplements. As a DM, the proliferation of feats, rules changes, new rules and class powers just made the game unmanagable.

Then along came 3.5.:eek:

I haven't bothered buying 3.5... yet. (I might start collecting them from e-bay when everybody starts pawning their copies off to purchase 4th).

4th Edition? From what I've seen, which isn't that much past the graphics interfaces allowing online play, I'll wait until someone else buys it, then play it, then comment.

Until then I'll wait for 4.5...or 4.6.

ronpyatt
10-01-2007, 12:58 PM
A spellcaster that never runs out of spells?
How does that work?
They do that now, in 3.5 edition.
Have you ever played 3.5, because your comments so far lead me to believe they are coming from someone who has never played 3.5 or just trying to be provocative.

Core spellcasters in 3.5 have a limited number of spells they can cast in a day. Warlocks are not core for 3.5.

All you had to do was ask me to clarify my answer. Passive-aggressive attacks are not necessary. This is a friendly environment where gamers can interact with other gamers. "Baloney?" Thanks for the slight.

starfalconkd
10-02-2007, 07:02 AM
Okay, easy guys. This was just a misunderstanding as I read it. So, neutral corners and back to discussing 4th?

InfoStorm
10-02-2007, 10:57 AM
While I'm waiting to be proven wrong, it almost feals like the game is being optimized for use with the online content. Due to money, I for one will NOT be there, and am still hoping that Farcaster will get a die roller added to the chat room soon. ::hint hint::

The online content I've seen so far looks to be great for dungeon crawls, but how good it is for surface encounters?

Ed Zachary
10-03-2007, 01:25 AM
Have you ever played 3.5, because your comments so far lead me to believe they are coming from someone who has never played 3.5 or just trying to be provocative.

Since I'm DMing the only 3.5 game on this board, that might be your first clue that I've played before and understand the rules.

In that game, and every other on I've played in AD&D through 3.5, the world has been stock full of monsters, and communication traveled slowly. Except for one game that I left after playing just twice. The DM was everything I wasn't... a rules lawyer, intolerant to player input, big into miniatures, and he got his source info from the hundreds of novels and source books released for 3.5 and earlier.

Perhaps what you meant was that the tone of the novels and countless supplements is going to be different?


"Baloney?" Thanks for the slight.

My Balogna has a first name, it's O-S-C-A-R...

Grinnen Baeritt
10-03-2007, 02:02 AM
Spell Users battery?

Don't say WOTC have finally cottoned on to the fact that magic-users should have more control over what they can cast and when?

Whilst I always understood the requirement for a mage to study their spells but thought it too harsh to set the spells they could cast to such a limited number for the day.

The flexability to cast non-offensive spells has to some degree been alleviated in 3.0 & 3.5 by the increase in the number of cantrips at 1st.

A "power point system" makes more sence, but place some restrictions by linking it to the more traditional spell memorisation as well. Give the caster the option to memorise a greater number specific spells from thier repetiore (I'd suggest allowing the current amount plus a bonus number of spell levels based on level+ Int Modifier). The caster then chooses from this list at will. Much like the sorcerer.

ronpyatt
10-04-2007, 05:04 PM
They've tweaked up the warlock class by providing more powers to choose from!

According to Rich Baker, "warlock's got many more powers than he had before..." and "Making sure that several different varieties of warlock flavor were scattered through the powers was important to me."

Whoever said the warlock class was broken? Perhaps it is a bit of a mismatch for 3.5.

Ghezryln
10-04-2007, 07:43 PM
[Original Post Removed]

Farcaster
10-04-2007, 07:57 PM
A reminder:


Respect fellow members. *Avoid personal attacks and flames. Debate opinions, not the people behind them. This includes posting images as a representation of your attack. *Inflammatory language or images is not acceptable. *If you can't find a polite way of expressing your opinion, take a break, maybe sleep on it, and come back to it when you can express yourself calmly.

rabkala
10-05-2007, 11:57 AM
In that game, and every other on I've played in AD&D through 3.5, the world has been stock full of monsters, and communication traveled slowly. Except for one game that I left after playing just twice. The DM was everything I wasn't... a rules lawyer, intolerant to player input, big into miniatures, and he got his source info from the hundreds of novels and source books released for 3.5 and earlier.
Not every world is. While you have made your opinion of your preferences clear, that does not change the facts. Many worlds like Eberon are more advanced technologically. Forgotten Realms and Kalamr increasingly have a greater emphasis on the mostly human world. Some people play in weird high magic worlds that are more like Final Fantasy with magical airships, long range communication, and trolleys. Some people play in worlds like Red Steele or Spelljammer with gunpowder and end of the renaissance breakthroughs. Things have evolved past the old fashioned Blackmoor and Greyhawk. Your preference and playstyle have nothing to do with it.

My grandfather would frequently complain that the only good whiskey was rye whiskey. He was of course trapped in the past and his preferences were set in stone. I bought him a bottle of Johnnie Walker Blue label Scotch, only to listen to him complain. While 99% of the world would see things differently, his little corner of it hadn't changed much in 100 years.

Anyway... Does anyone think the grappling system will actually get better? Since that is one of those areas they showed in their little teaser, it had better.

Digital Arcanist
10-05-2007, 01:06 PM
Everyone complains about how complicated grappling is. I never had a problem using the grappling system. I even used the "new" strangling system presented in Dragon magazine a few months back with satisfaction. I imagined the new system will be super easy to use since a lot of questions and complaints have to do with grappling on their website and in the Dragon Magazine sections.

Has anyone found any new video or podcasts about 4.0? The latest I read/saw was in August on the GamerZero podcast. There are supposed to be people out their right now playtesting, but I haven't read anything. Has anyone accessed the new online content for Insider? I tried to get to it but I haven't found anything yet. All of this stuff was supposed to be available to everyone after GenCon.

fmitchell
10-05-2007, 01:35 PM
My grandfather would frequently complain that the only good whiskey was rye whiskey. He was of course trapped in the past and his preferences were set in stone. I bought him a bottle of Johnnie Walker Blue label Scotch, only to listen to him complain. While 99% of the world would see things differently, his little corner of it hadn't changed much in 100 years.

Not every whiskey tastes the same. I'm more of a Scotch drinker, but I prefer single malts (not all, mind) to blends like Johnnie Walker. Rye also tastes very different from Scotch, which is different again from Bourbon, and so on.

But getting back to the original topic (mmm, Scotch ... but no), I only sporadically keep up with the D&D world, but my impression is that they're keeping things under wraps except for the occasional fluff article on "Dragon" or "Dungeon" or "&". A friend who writes game material will be getting a "developer's kit" early next year, so I'm just going to wait until then before making any decisions.

OK, but I do wonder how many core classes there will be if they're adding Warlocks. Admittedly, they're combining Wizard and Sorceror, but I though 11 was just too many ... never mind the ones introduced in supplements. I kind of hope they'll go the Star Wars Saga Edition route and pare it down to something under 9, with others being particular talent-tree specializations of a "core class".

I admire True20 for paring theirs down to just three: Adept (uses magic), Expert (primarily skill-based), and Warrior (primarily combat-based), and allowing characters to take levels of each fairly freely. But then again I really prefer skill-based systems, where combat (and even a magic ability) is just another skill.

Ed Zachary
10-05-2007, 05:50 PM
Not every world is. While you have made your opinion of your preferences clear, that does not change the facts. Many worlds like Eberon are more advanced technologically. Forgotten Realms and Kalamr increasingly have a greater emphasis on the mostly human world. Some people play in weird high magic worlds that are more like Final Fantasy with magical airships, long range communication, and trolleys. Some people play in worlds like Red Steele or Spelljammer with gunpowder and end of the renaissance breakthroughs. Things have evolved past the old fashioned Blackmoor and Greyhawk. Your preference and playstyle have nothing to do with it.

You want to talk "facts"?

The core books do not set the tone of the game, they merely set the rules. It's the supplements and novels that have set a tone that WotC wants to change. I don't give a darn about that part of the game.


My grandfather would frequently complain that the only good whiskey was rye whiskey. He was of course trapped in the past and his preferences were set in stone. I bought him a bottle of Johnnie Walker Blue label Scotch, only to listen to him complain. While 99% of the world would see things differently, his little corner of it hadn't changed much in 100 years.

I like Kentucky Bourbon, but I'll drink Scotch Whiskey too. What is the point of this part of your post?


Anyway... Does anyone think the grappling system will actually get better? Since that is one of those areas they showed in their little teaser, it had better.

I have no problem with it, either in a table top gaming or play by post.

Why, who is complaining about the Grappling system?

Ed Zachary
10-05-2007, 05:52 PM
(mmm, Scotch ... but no)

Enjoy it, I'll be having a shot of Gentleman Jack later on.

Vimachipal
10-05-2007, 08:50 PM
The core books do not set the tone of the game, they merely set the rules. It's the supplements and novels that have set a tone that WotC wants to change. I don't give a darn about that part of the game.

Absolutely true, they're just looking to sell more "Hostile Wilderness Supplements" and find new subject matter for their novelists.

rabkala
10-05-2007, 09:37 PM
Wow... just like all the previous editions!

In that game, and every other on I've played in AD&D through 3.5, the world has been stock full of monsters, and communication traveled slowly.

So, where in the core books does it say the world has to be stocked full of monsters or that communication travels slowly? You are just setting the tone the way you want. Some people set the tone the way they want. If you want to talk published worlds that the core books are set in, my previous post is correct. If you want to be obtuse and argumentative, this is not the place.


I like Kentucky Bourbon, but I'll drink Scotch Whiskey too. What is the point of this part of your post?
The point is, some people are ignorant of the world around them. They live in their own little comfortable world, and grow to like it. You can show them that there is a big world outside that is far different, but they fear it due to their ignorance. Some people see the vast world outside and would prefer to wallow in their ignorance, intolerance, and closed mindedness. Some can grow and embrace the richness of the world. My grandfather could not.


I have no problem with it, either in a table top gaming or play by post.

Why, who is complaining about the Grappling system?

WoTC showed this in the teaser video. The world doesn't revolve around you... why do you think everything is directed toward you?

Vimachipal
10-05-2007, 09:55 PM
[Removed]

rabkala
10-05-2007, 10:12 PM
Look, another from Vermont to come and make personal attacks. I said Ed was setting the tone of his game, which is correct.

My grandfather is dead, thank you. Again, you feel that everything is directed toward the Vermont patrol.

I never said I didn't like anyone, it is you who assumes.

Ed Zachary
10-05-2007, 10:17 PM
[Removed]

Digital Arcanist
10-06-2007, 12:39 AM
The spirit of this thread is to share tidbits of knowledge concerning the new edition such as YouTube links concerning the WotC presentation, podcasts, and websites that are reliable. This is not the thread to share you opinions of each other or of past editions. If you have nothing of value to contribute then contribute nothing at all.

fmitchell
10-06-2007, 12:43 AM
If you want to be obtuse and argumentative, this is not the place.

Not that I'm the designated Fantasy moderator, but as a moderator I'll ask you to keep personal comments out of the forums. No matter what the provocation.


The point is, some people are ignorant of the world around them. They live in their own little comfortable world, and grow to like it. You can show them that there is a big world outside that is far different, but they fear it due to their ignorance. Some people see the vast world outside and would prefer to wallow in their ignorance, intolerance, and closed mindedness. Some can grow and embrace the richness of the world. My grandfather could not.

Again, edges toward a personal attack. My father was close-minded about an alarming number of things, but I'd consider it in poor taste for many reasons to imply comparisons between him and another party. We're here to discuss games, not the foibles of those on and off the boards.


The world doesn't revolve around you... why do you think everything is directed toward you?

Once more, please watch your tone. Comments like this add fuel to the fire.

As for Ed Zachary and "Vimachipal", I think it's safe to say there's absolutely nothing I can say to either of you.

Grinnen Baeritt
10-06-2007, 09:35 AM
Ok. I've finally seen the you Tube stuff and had a chance to compare it with what I've been told about the presentation at GenCon UK.

I'm not overly impressed.

I like the idea but suspect that all it will come down to in the end will be a subscription service that you'll need to play the game online.

Perhaps I'm getting old but computers don't frighten me or impress me.. but really, do you need one to play games with your mates around a table? I didn't see anything that isn't already commerically available in some form (and to be quite frank, better).

The presentation really didn't tell you much, I've heard some good things about the Saga version of Star Wars.. and it being a test version of the 4th Edition rules. Hopefully, simpler and faster to play, perhaps more intuitve...

So what stuff did they say would be happening? You can go up to 30th level? (Power gamers start rubbing your hands..) Oh, wow... what next for 5th edition? you can go up to 40th?

Nothing new except a bit of backtracking... remember when you could go up to unlimited levels...in Ad&d. All the interactive stuff looks great but does it play great and feel great, even dispite all the tech and pretty graphics it's still only a game about imagination and storytelling.

I've heard that they will be introducing leveled racial abilities and trying to keep peoples attention by adding new stuff everytime you go up a level.

Again we can't jeally judge what it will be like until we get a chance to play it.

Digital Arcanist
10-06-2007, 12:39 PM
The online content comes in two parts. The first is the replacement for Dragon and Dungeon magazines. The second is just an online version of dungeon tiles and miniatures.

You will still have to have a DM create the story and NPC's as well as draw the dungeons in the online toolkit. Make no mistake that it is an online game. These are just tools to allow you to connect with friends and make new ones across vast distances.

The YouTube video doesn't really talk about prices and stuff but check out episode 9 of the GamerZero podcast and there they talk about possible pricing of the new books and online services. The marketing and distribution departments are looking at 5-15 dollars for the online content per month. Its the same price to pick up Dragon and Dungeon off the shelf each month plus you get more content and the online toolkits. If the service turns out to be as great as they hope then it could change the game for good.

I look forward to the toolkits for Star Wars online.

Check out the podcast because they spend more time talking about exactly what the online components will entail.

InfoStorm
10-06-2007, 06:41 PM
If you read the latest news blog from Wizards on AD&D, you'll find the article that says they refiined the StarWars Saga System for the AD&D setting for the core mechanics.
Head to the newsbot (http://www.penandpapergames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3809)thread for more details.

Digital Arcanist
10-06-2007, 07:00 PM
So now I wonder if they will be getting rid of the lesser used skills like Use Rope?

I make a point of making sure I use all the skills on the sheet consistently which often irritates my players but give me lots of pleasure.

I hope they don't streamline too much. A lot of mystique is imposing but some is enticing.

Skunkape
10-08-2007, 08:09 AM
So now I wonder if they will be getting rid of the lesser used skills like Use Rope?

I make a point of making sure I use all the skills on the sheet consistently which often irritates my players but give me lots of pleasure.

I hope they don't streamline too much. A lot of mystique is imposing but some is enticing.

That's surprising, apparently if Use Rope is a lesser used skill, then most players must not take prisoners, as Use Rope is the perfect skill check to make when tying up a prisoner. Then you can have the prisoner attempt to escape at some point using, the Escape Artist skill!

Digital Arcanist
10-08-2007, 11:48 AM
Why use rope when you can use some manacles?

Farcaster
10-08-2007, 12:51 PM
DA's characters ALWAYS carry manacles, btw, because you just never know when you might ... ahem ... need them.

Digital Arcanist
10-08-2007, 03:09 PM
Padded and non-padded always.....

rabkala
10-10-2007, 11:05 AM
So, I finally got around to reading the Roots and Inspiration article at wizards. A couple things do give me hope.

Rob Heinsoo says, "We don't have whacky tables of random abilities for each grouping of character classes, but we have powers and abilities for each class and race." I wouldn't imagine they will streamline too much, only give us more of what most people want. More power as you advance and more unique abilities to differentiate the classes and races. Hopefully, they can do it in a way to discourage the mad cherry picking power gamers.

Andy Collins says Fourth Edition is: "what D&D can be without such strict limitations on daily resources." This has always bothered me. A party can be so powerful when they start out in the day when spells and such are plentiful, but pushing it just a little can be their downfall. At higher levels, groups never do the recommended encounters per day unless you find ways to force it on them. They go in with guns blazing and bowl over the enemy like a cake walk, then just teleport away or otherwise try to avoid any other encounter until they are full strength.

James Wyatt says, "There's no school like the old school. The old editions of the game have a lot to teach us about the sheer fun of the game, as well as examples of game mechanics and adventure design to steer far away from." D&D has always been a passion of mine since my first encounter. Many nights, the games just don't live up to my expectations though. How do you recapture that sense of wonder and exhilaration every game? How do you find that perfect balanced moment of zen so that you can transcend the system and find true enjoyment? Sometimes, trying to make a rule for everything and making everyone happy just bogs the game down until there is no fun. If only I could click my heels together to go back to those first few years of playing, "There's no place like home, there's no place like home!"

My expectations are awful high. There has to be a conspiracy in there somewhere...

MortonStromgal
10-14-2007, 05:09 PM
What I know...

Hasbro will get about $100 out of me (and my LFGS another $100) before I decide if I want to stick with 3.5 or move on to 4e. Also if I choose to stick with 3.5 then Half Priced Books will be very happy. :D