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RealmsDM
08-15-2007, 06:57 PM
So what is this all about???

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/welcome

Typhon
08-15-2007, 08:38 PM
So what is this all about???

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/welcome


It's counting down till the aliens attack, they're using our satellites against us.

TheYeti1775
08-15-2007, 09:22 PM
mmmm DnD frontpage with fours all being readable on the dice. :(

Ed Zachary
08-15-2007, 09:25 PM
mmmm DnD frontpage with fours all being readable on the dice. :(

Well the title is... 4dventure.

TheYeti1775
08-15-2007, 09:26 PM
RPG Board Business Thread:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=906666

4E Discussion Forum now:
http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=686

InfoStorm
08-15-2007, 11:44 PM
Well, if it is 4th edition, I'm NOT getting it. I've spent hundreds of dollars on 3rd, only to possibly have it outdated. I tollerated moving from 2nd to 3rd because I thought the rules were much simplified, but by 2+ shelves of books say otherwise this time. They killed my beloved Alternity system because they didn't want it competing with Star Wars, would they discontinue 3e books next?

Grimwell
08-16-2007, 01:01 AM
I resisted moving to 2nd Edition because change sucked, I fear change. Who needed it? About a year later I caved in and found that there were some good things done and it was a smart idea.

When third edition was pitched, I was ready. 2nd edition had a glut of books and rules and shizzle and when a new guy joined the group the entire negotiation of what books and rules could be used had to start up again.

Third was good, great ideas, good system, etc. I liked the open source move and wanted to support it. 3.5 I saw as an update, not a new edition. I bought the PHB and DMG just to see and didn't find it bad, or overwhelmingly good - just changes.

So, while I'd like to say that I hate the idea of 4th edition, I don't. Third edition has waaaaaaaay too many resources, to the point that it's annoying to DM - not because I can't say no, but because i have to say no each and every time a new person comes to the game with a sourcebook in hand and a dream of something that does not fit in the campaign at all.

Third edition has glut. Fourth will clear that out.

My only actual hang up is that I think this entire cycle was rushed. Seven years is too soon. Once a decade is good, it allows the game to change with the times. Once every seven years (or eight) is too soon, and makes me resist on the principle of cost.

I'll probably buy it anyway. Can't wait to get to Indy tomorrow now.

Farcaster
08-16-2007, 01:32 AM
In time wouldn't a fourth edition simply become the same way, Grim? And in the meantime, you'll have an edition with not quite enough source materials, so that you are having to manually update sources you already have. Not that I am saying that I am against the idea of a fourth edition. I'd be interested to see what they do with it. But, if it is to come, my hope is that it is born out of an honest progression of the system and rules and not simply a matter of revenue.

Zelgadas
08-16-2007, 07:19 AM
if Star Wars Saga Edition is any indication of what to expect from 4E, then I'll be buying it without a second thought. I'm a big fan of the rules changes in that game, and I salivate at the thought of what those rules changes could bring to my beloved D&D, particularly if they're a little less careful with their sacred cows than they were in 3E. I'd love to see a D&D where the ranger, barbarian, and fighter concepts can all be realized with a single, versatile class. I love the idea of prestige classes with some actual oomph to them, talent trees and all. I'll be watching this page with baited breath.

Inquisitor Tremayne
08-16-2007, 08:00 AM
if Star Wars Saga Edition is any indication of what to expect from 4E, then I'll be buying it without a second thought. I'm a big fan of the rules changes in that game, and I salivate at the thought of what those rules changes could bring to my beloved D&D, particularly if they're a little less careful with their sacred cows than they were in 3E. I'd love to see a D&D where the ranger, barbarian, and fighter concepts can all be realized with a single, versatile class. I love the idea of prestige classes with some actual oomph to them, talent trees and all. I'll be watching this page with baited breath.

I concur!

The changes that have been made with the Star Wars Saga Edition have been outstanding.

Plus, given that D&D is WotC's baby, I assume that they will have the insane crazy amount of support for it that they have had for previous editions.

Plus, you may have noticed that in the newer books they have already included swift actions (now core in SW) and changed the stat block formatting to that of Saga Edition.

D&D could for sure learn a thing or two from d20 modern and Saga Edition and hopefully that comes in the form of 4th edition.

Personally, I don't have a problem with them pumping out a ton of books. Yeah, its annoying and probably unnecessary, but I'm like those people in the Progressive auto insurance commercials, I like options. And lots of options are good. Especially because I find it difficult to create the character I want for D&D. You loose too much in multi-classing in D&D but it is encouraged in Saga edition.

As much as I don't look forward to having to buy a bunch of books again I think 4th edition will be a welcome change.

<sorry for my ramblings, its really early.>

starfalconkd
08-16-2007, 08:01 AM
Well it's official, they ran out of ideas (see Complete Champion) and now they need a new addition. Also, 4e will apparently not have the Open Gaming License. Greed.

Moritz
08-16-2007, 08:16 AM
Although Saga SW is pretty sweet, and 4th ed (if based on Saga changes) would be pretty sweet. I'm not inclined to throw down money for this update.

WotC already got me for around 25 hard back books (+3 of them 3.0) and a huge number of additional soft back modules and all the mini's I have. If I had actually paid full price for them, I would be out over 1000 dollars. (Luckily I had a friend that found several books that fell off the back of a truck.)

I just don't see it economically viable to spend another large sum of money on a rules change of something that, to me, isn't broken.

3.0 was broken (proven by the 50+ pages of errata that came out a month after it was released). 3.5 works just fine for me. And I'll be sticking with it.

InfoStorm
08-16-2007, 09:41 AM
If 4th Edition is NOT an OPEN GAMING LICENSE game system, that Wizards of the Coast may also shoot themselves in the foot, because it means they will be competing with the offspring of their own product.

They went through efforts in the past of avoiding competition between two of their own product lines (Alternity vs. Star Wars) by flat out cancelling one product line and refusing to sell the license even though to were not going to produce any more on the product or even have future print runs. Will 4th edition stop 100% of production & sales on 3e?

ronpyatt
08-16-2007, 11:34 AM
If this is 4th Edition, then I'm getting ready to spend thousands of dollars! Oh, yeah. I love change. The more material they put out the better. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

And you're all going to be doing the same. You act like we have a choice. The undercover WotC police will ensure that you do exactly as they instruct. You always have and you always will obey. Resistance is a state of mind that can be turned around without being turned off.

For those few of you that do not conform to the new product line, you will, of course, be left behind; Crying like big gentlefolk should cry. And this is as it should be: All you die-hard 3rd edition fans will be left in the dust.

But if it turns out not to be 4th edition, then I'll wait and do the snoopy dance later.

Whatever 4dventure is, it's going to be good. In any case, we should know here in a few hours.

(Too bad about My Little Pony RPG being canceled like that. I was so looking forward to it.) :)

Zelgadas
08-16-2007, 12:30 PM
Ron is right. If WotC is releasing 4E soon, then they're basically going to be printing money. On a smallish scale, of course. You know, in comparison to things like Pokemon.

Farcaster
08-16-2007, 12:31 PM
According to the front page news of enworld.org (http://www.enworld.org/), it is 4e. Apparently, they are targeting 8 4e books in 2008.


(Too bad about My Little Pony RPG being canceled like that. I was so looking forward to it.)

You would :p

RealmsDM
08-16-2007, 04:10 PM
If it is true, then just try to think like me... the 3rd edition books will be cheaper. Buy 'em all & run 3.5 campaigns from here on out.

But it is total CRAPOLA... pffff, 4th edition should have a $ on the cover of the PHB

Inquisitor Tremayne
08-16-2007, 04:57 PM
Just look for 5th edition in 2017!

I have a strong interest in game mechanics and strategy so I will be picking up books no matter what. It will be just like all those Shadowrun, Vampire, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Earthdawn, Aliens, and WEG Star Wars books I bought and don't use anymore.

I really don't understand the money spent argument. I mean, anyone that plays or has played PnP RPGs knows that game lines come and go with editions and or out of print or out all together. So your money is wasted no matter what. Its like buying a drink at a bar. You pay your 4 bucks, drink it, and then complain that you just spent money on it. Why buy it in the first place? You know its not going to last.

Anyway, I just think there are more viable things to be concerned about than the money you already spent on the game.

rant over.

Moritz
08-16-2007, 05:04 PM
What if it's 4D Venture?

Like adventure in the 4th dimension.

<key wavy lines and sci fi music>

ronpyatt
08-16-2007, 05:32 PM
I'm getting service unavailable page. I wonder if the countdown was too much for their server?

Farcaster
08-16-2007, 05:33 PM
I got a VB error that there was insufficient memory to create an object and then the Service Unavailable message on the next refresh. Me thinks, yes.

RealmsDM
08-16-2007, 06:26 PM
typical

PhishStyx
08-16-2007, 06:33 PM
Of all the game books I have bought, I haven't ever wasted money, not once. Part of that fact is due to the care that I put into my gaming purchases, but I've also found something useful in every book. And I still use them all, not every day, but a reference library isn't something you build overnight, nor do you toss it just because a different book comes along.

To me, a new edition of D&D is considerably different from a new edition of Shadowrun (which I have all 4 editions of). D&D dumps and revamps it's entire world for each new edition. Shadowrun builds on it's setting with each edition, adding something to the whole, changing things like they change in the real world, but not stripping away the old like it didn't exist. In Shadowrun, there's backstory in the older editions that I could re-introduce to current storylines if I chose, and in fact, I've given that some thought, running a campaign where information 10 or 20 years old has bearing on the 2070 story.

Vampire's 4th edition was such a complete reset that it's an entirely different game world, rather than as with D&D Greyhawk or Dragonlance (or whichever) rehashed with new rules.

Also, it's rare that games I buy have multiple editions. Some get revised, sure, but full-on new editions? Not so much. . . not nearly so much as D&D anyway. I only have 4 games that have more than 2 full editions in some form out (D&D (still have my old 1st ed. books), Shadowrun, Call of Cthulhu, & Marvel Super Heroes), but that's not even close to the total number of games I have. Even so, I still use them; it's not wasted money.

Moritz
08-16-2007, 06:33 PM
Yeah, see, it's already broke.

Coming soon, 4dventure errata.

ronpyatt
08-16-2007, 06:36 PM
Yes, it most certainly is 4ed D&D. It let me in for a second, and there it was larger than life. They've got a preview AVI ready for download, which I imagine is making their server work overtime, making it harder to get to their site.

Farcaster
08-16-2007, 10:14 PM
I tried to download the AVI, so I could post it out here for download, but I had no luck. I see that enworld.org is also now down along with wizards.com. I'll try again later and post it if I can.

rabkala
08-16-2007, 10:29 PM
I just had a discussion with a friend last weekend about 4e. I of coarse said that as long as WoTC was making money, they would continue with 3.5 for a long time to come. Don't I look stupid now. I hope they are not just dumbing the game down for the WoW kids and other computer gamers. This would be the death of many old timers.

starfalconkd
08-17-2007, 07:31 AM
I wonder if I should wait a couple of years to make sure they don't come out with 4.5. I felt slightly raped by that especially after the 3.0 books were cheap and the 3.5 books were not.
Apparently the 4.0 classes will have 30 levels listed in the PHB. So it will be playable into epic right off the bat. I feel hesitant about this. Also fighter is being turned into much more of a weapon specialist, with there being a fairly major difference between longsword fighter and battle axe fighter and flaial fighter, etc. They say the longsword will be the "queen of the battlefield" while the greatsword will be the "queen's enforcer."

Moritz
08-17-2007, 07:53 AM
Coming soon, 4.0.

Four months afterwards, 4.0 Errata.

And after everyone has spent their money getting the coveted 4.0 books.

Eight months after that, 4.5ed.

Better get the KY out boys and girls, you're about to get it good.

InfoStorm
08-17-2007, 08:44 AM
Nah, I'll just treat it the same way I do Windows Vista here at the office. Wait a couple years after it comes out to even touch it.

Moritz
08-17-2007, 11:30 AM
Just to add:

http://www.enworld.org/

Jonas Boggs
08-17-2007, 12:13 PM
If you go to the WoTC Gen Con site below there are now 4 video presentations.

I have to say the new online tabletop looks really sweet along with character creation ..... make your own mini to play in the game? Come on, how sweet is that!

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=welcome/conventions/gencon07

ronpyatt
08-17-2007, 12:37 PM
They've apparently worked on a few things. One was ...


the "christmas tree" effect, whereby characters are loaded down with magic items, buff spells and other magical effects was one of the designers' goals to remove. - http://www.enworld.org/ Sweet music!

TheYeti1775
08-17-2007, 08:30 PM
Well its all up and working right now.... 9:29PM Eastern

rabkala
08-17-2007, 09:45 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KG3qJ6Ku-MY

Andy Collins said, "The short number of months we've had to create this game."
Why short? This means, they slapped together some junk for you to buy for now. Then, you can buy some more junk later.

Andy Collins says,"Reexamine how dungeons and dragons does the things that it does well and how we can make them do those things better...and turn those up to the highest volume we can while clearing away some of the chaff that gets in the way"
This means: we have messed up the good parts and gotten rid of role play so we can make the next edition strictly a computer game.

Zelgadas
08-18-2007, 09:35 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KG3qJ6Ku-MY

Andy Collins said, "The short number of months we've had to create this game."
Why short? This means, they slapped together some junk for you to buy for now. Then, you can buy some more junk later.

I think he meant "short" in comparison to the seven years that they've had to work on material for 3/3.5. This quote is taken somewhat out of context, I think. He was talking about the possibility of making a conversion book, which he said wasn't feasible because of the plethora of material already out for 3/3.5. I really doubt that they've slapped this product together, and remember that the first book isn't coming out until May '08; that's nine more months that they have to playtest and refine the material that they've already got, and to create new material to supplement it.


Andy Collins says,"Reexamine how dungeons and dragons does the things that it does well and how we can make them do those things better...and turn those up to the highest volume we can while clearing away some of the chaff that gets in the way"
This means: we have messed up the good parts and gotten rid of role play so we can make the next edition strictly a computer game.Not to be critical, but your interpretation of this quote seems to say the exact opposite of what the quote actually says. The "chaff" that he's referring to is not roleplaying; heck, they couldn't get rid of that if they tried, since the amount of roleplaying in the game is entirely determined by the preferences of the individual group. Rather, he's referring to the cumbersome rules like grappling and attacks of opportunity that make play more confusing and less streamlined, the stuff that can get in the way of the fun if you don't know exactly how to use it.

As for messing up the good parts; let's not forget that these people love D&D, and they're not going to turn it into something that isn't D&D. In that same interview Collins said multiple times that their first and foremost rule was that this new iteration had to be D&D. To that end, it stands to reason that whatever works well in the current system will stay, whatever doesn't will be replaced by something that does, and whatever works but could be better will be improved upon. They've had seven years to see what does and doesn't work with 3/3.5, and they're building upon that knowledge, based on what the fans have told them.

Also remember that these people are fans of the game, too. Nobody gets into RPG design to get rich; you get into it for love of the game, pure and simple. And, if you want to look at it from a purely financial perspective, they know that their fanbase wouldn't tolerate it if they turned D&D into something it isn't. I'm pretty sure they also know that they're not going to convert WoW players into D&D players by making the game more like WoW. Heck, there's already a WoW RPG out there for people who want it, right?

Bottom line, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. It just seems to me that these interpretations are driven more by cynicism than anything else, no offense intended.

[Edit: Took out HTML tags.]

rabkala
08-18-2007, 10:04 AM
Come on Zelgadas, why be so rational and level headed? It is far more fun to be cynical. Some see the story of chicken little your way, while some might agree the world is ending.

Argent
08-18-2007, 10:26 AM
Well it's official, they ran out of ideas (see Complete Champion) and now they need a new addition. Also, 4e will apparently not have the Open Gaming License. Greed.

Actually, that isn't true. The extension of the OGL was included as part of the official press release, with the same encouragement for companies to create D&D compatible books.

Zelgadas
08-18-2007, 08:59 PM
Come on Zelgadas, why be so rational and level headed? It is far more fun to be cynical. Some see the story of chicken little your way, while some might agree the world is ending.

Yeah, I see your point. Far be it from me to deny anyone their Chicken Little scenarios. ;)

Moritz
08-20-2007, 08:11 AM
The 4.0 sky is falling, the 4.0 sky is falling.

Zelgadas
08-20-2007, 09:35 AM
Nah, it's just the WotC Gods dropping new books from on high.

Moritz
08-20-2007, 09:59 AM
Ouch, that'd hurt. Falling hard backed books.

So, Zel, you gonna be the first kid on your block to get the new edition?

I still hold that I'm never going to buy the series; but you know what Luke said about Tatooine when he left. So, I figure it'll be a few years down the road. That is if I'm still playing. As it stands, I've got no game running. And I'm really edgy about starting one.

Farcaster
08-20-2007, 12:01 PM
I stuck with 2nd edition until at a year or so after 3rd was released. I may do the same thing with 4th edition. If it's a good product, I'll probably wait until there is enough source material published to truly support my game and then I'll switch. Of course, at least one of my players seems to be vehemently opposed to the idea. Luckily, it's still a pretty long ways off before we have to worry about it.

Zelgadas
08-20-2007, 02:08 PM
Ouch, that'd hurt. Falling hard backed books.

So, Zel, you gonna be the first kid on your block to get the new edition?

I still hold that I'm never going to buy the series; but you know what Luke said about Tatooine when he left. So, I figure it'll be a few years down the road. That is if I'm still playing. As it stands, I've got no game running. And I'm really edgy about starting one.

Maybe not the first kid. As it stands, my birthday is in July, which coincides nicely with the release of the third book. So I'll probably get them all at once. Now I just have to figure out how to resist the temptation to buy the first two early.

Moritz
08-20-2007, 03:52 PM
Resist temptation by chanting, 4.5 , 4.5 , 4.5 , 4.5 , over and over.

starfalconkd
08-20-2007, 06:32 PM
Resist temptation by chanting, 4.5 , 4.5 , 4.5 , 4.5 , over and over.

... I still feel raped by the 3.5 update. As good as it was.

rabkala
08-20-2007, 06:43 PM
I stuck with 2nd edition until at a year or so after 3rd was released. I may do the same thing with 4th edition. If it's a good product, I'll probably wait until there is enough source material published to truly support my game and then I'll switch. Of course, at least one of my players seems to be vehemently opposed to the idea. Luckily, it's still a pretty long ways off before we have to worry about it.

I also stuck with second for awhile after 3e came out. My younger group all wanted 3e with a passion, but I made them wait 6 months until the logical end of the campaign. My other group which included mostly older guys, swore to never switch. About a year later, an argument about the player option books were the end of the group. Two liked it, two hated it, one wanted to switch to gurps (or anything different), and one had decided 3e wasn't so bad after all. Two of the players and myself started a new 3e
group and were joined a few months later by one of the others.

I will probably buy the new books when they come out. That way, when the inevitable switch occurs, I won't be playing catch up to anyone.

fmitchell
08-20-2007, 09:34 PM
As I posted on another thread, I'm not a fan of D&D. (No, really Frank? We never would have guessed.) I only bought the 3.5 PHB -- used -- two years ago for a game. Since I came to 3.x late, I guess I don't feel the sense of betrayal that 2ed/3.0/3.5 players do. (The closest I can approximate is when GURPS 4.0 came out, but then I wasn't actively playing GURPS either ... I just bought the $75 Basic Set and 8 other books for $35 apiece on a lark.)

But, then again, your 3.x books aren't going to evaporate. I know I'm going to wait until D&D 4 is out for a bit and buy the PHB on the cheap. I really liked Mike Mearls's Iron Heroes, and if he makes fighters and rogues cool in D&D without introducing more complexity I might even spring for all three books, or more.

Grimwell
08-21-2007, 12:15 AM
I'm not totally caught up on all the info, but after Gen Con and time to rest on the thought, it's no big deal. For the people who don't convert - there is a ton of data out there. For those that do, the support of VOIP and internet driven games is a nice extension, and smart business.

What will I do? No clue yet. Probably spend money. :)

Griffin2020
08-21-2007, 09:11 AM
I, to add a voice to the rabble, say it ticks me off. I bought all of the books for first edition. I bought most of the books for second edition. I skipped 3.0, but have bought many of the books for 3.5. Now they are telling me that I need to give them more money for another set of the same books (I know, I know, rules changes) that I have already bought THREE times???

What happened to the 11 year release cycle? (1st to 2nd to 3rd)? We are not due another edition for at least a couple more years.

If this is the case, they need to stop releasing stuff for 3.5, simply hold it off till 4.0 is out. But, since we all know it is really about the $$$, they won't do that.

Zelgadas
08-21-2007, 09:11 AM
Resist temptation by chanting, 4.5 , 4.5 , 4.5 , 4.5 , over and over.

FYI, it's been mentioned several times on multiple GenCon videos that there will be no 4.5. I believe they cited the ability to get improvements out via D&D Insider as a reason. Believe what you want out of that; at least it goes some way toward showing that they aren't planning on 4.5.

Inquisitor Tremayne
08-21-2007, 10:07 AM
I think the best analogy I've seen thus far is comparing D&D to buying a
car:

You've purchased a car, you love it, it suits your needs, and it drives very
well. Then a new model comes out, with lots of new features. Whether those
features are *better* or not is an entirely different question. Now here's
a few points where I've notice a lot of people are getting hung up:

*Don't be mad at the "carmaker" for making a new model. After all, they're
a business, and businesses are profit-driven.

*No one is FORCING you to purchase the new model. Similarly, you are
neither a fool for buying the new version, nor are you wise for not
purchasing. If you have the means & inclination, buy it; if not, don't.
Simple as that.

*If you like your "edition" of car, just keep on driving!

Farcaster
08-21-2007, 11:36 AM
I have to agree with the ole' Inquisitor on this one. As I've said, if it is a better product and it would enhance your roleplay, get it. If it's a revenue-driven piece of rubbage, don't.

Moritz
08-21-2007, 11:47 AM
We all know the Inquisitor is right. We're just in Denial.

InfoStorm
08-21-2007, 01:49 PM
No he's not, He can't be right. No, NO NOOOO!!!!! :eek:

Inquisitor Tremayne
08-21-2007, 04:40 PM
You may or may not already be aware of the "Doomsday" and the "Hallelujah" threads over on WotCs D&D boards but I warn ye, stay away.

The Doomsday thread is for all of the naysayers and anti-4th edition folks and the Hallelujah thread, well, I think you get the point.

The anti-4th edition argument, as far as I can tell, rests on the point that WotC is just trying to make a buck.

Those for 4th edition seem to be looking forward to the new game rules.

Interesting.

fmitchell
08-21-2007, 06:17 PM
The anti-4th edition argument, as far as I can tell, rests on the point that WotC is just trying to make a buck.

Nothing wrong with wanting to make a buck. The question is whether they're making a buck by improving on the game (or, Boccob forbid, advancing the art and craft of gaming), or whether they're merely grinding out more crap on the theory that their customers are sheep who'll buy anything they sell.

Looking at 3.0 and 3.5 material, you can find support for both hypotheses.

Inquisitor Tremayne
08-21-2007, 10:42 PM
most folks seem to be jumping to the early conclusion that they are grinding out junk because we are all sheep and will buy anything.

Hearing from the game designers themselves it appears that they are advancing the art and craft of gaming AND improving the game.

Their arguments are really rather annoying and seemingly irrational but like a car wreck I can't turn away.

Grimwell
08-22-2007, 12:34 AM
I'd trust the game designers for a bout 80% of what they are saying. I work for a company that makes games and most of what we say in public is misinterpreted by people who want to think the worst.

4th edition is driven by business needs, but created by folks who just want to make a better game. I can't fault them for the business stuff, and I wouldn't anyway - they need profit to stay alive. Further, anything that allows them to explore new ideas is good. Especially since I don't have to pay to get those ideas unless I want to.

Moritz
08-22-2007, 07:37 AM
most folks seem to be jumping to the early conclusion that they are grinding out junk because we are all sheep and will buy anything.

Hearing from the game designers themselves it appears that they are advancing the art and craft of gaming AND improving the game.

Their arguments are really rather annoying and seemingly irrational but like a car wreck I can't turn away.

The more D&D becomes a MMORPG video game, the less likely I'll want to play that version. I'm very anti 'mana points' (as seen in DDO and the Unearthed Arcana variant rules). I also believe, that if D&D starts producing modules that allow the characters to 'camp for spawns', I'll personally go to WotC headquarters and strangle someone. :)

Ed Zachary
08-22-2007, 08:48 AM
LARPing and "The Camarilla" killed White Wolf's "Vampire, the Masquerade". They then killed Mage by making the next version LARP friendly.

Since bad ideas are often emulated, will D&D go LARP at some point?

"OK Buttknox the fighter, save vs magic... Rock, Paper or Scisors?"

Inquisitor Tremayne
08-22-2007, 09:24 AM
I honestly think it is too early to tell.

For sure too early for all the hysteria that has sprung up around it.

Too early to write 4th edition off completely.

Too early to be fully jumping on the 4th edition bandwagon.

I'm going to suggest over on the WotC boards that someone start a thread of FACTS about 4th ed. This way everyone can be on the same page.

Moritz
08-22-2007, 09:50 AM
Since bad ideas are often emulated, will D&D go LARP at some point?

"OK Buttknox the fighter, save vs magic... Rock, Paper or Scisors?"

Isn't AMTGARD or SCA a D&D rules lite LARP?

There's also one called NEMO or something like that, I think.

RealmsDM
08-22-2007, 04:13 PM
I DO NOT... repeat, DO NOT have faith in the game designers. Yes, they have great creative talents, but they need a paycheck same as the next guy, and WotC has them on a business plan... that's what 4e represents!

Inquisitor Tremayne
08-23-2007, 10:56 AM
I DO NOT... repeat, DO NOT have faith in the game designers. Yes, they have great creative talents, but they need a paycheck same as the next guy, and WotC has them on a business plan... that's what 4e represents!

Of course they are trying to make money, why would they not. The plus side is that we may just get a good d20 game system out of it.

No one knows the future, yet.

TheYeti1775
08-23-2007, 12:34 PM
Well I know I'll buy the 3 Core Books at least.
I know the other DM in the group will borrow them to look them over.

Most likely we will make a 3.85 (3.75 is our house ruled 3.5 :D), and just incorporate things we like about the new one.

Dimthar
08-23-2007, 08:19 PM
I DO NOT... repeat, DO NOT have faith in the game designers. Yes, they have great creative talents, but they need a paycheck same as the next guy, and WotC has them on a business plan... that's what 4e represents!

I offer myself as one of the first ones to buy the 4th Ed core books and make a review out of it .... (ugh! I hope my wife is not reading this...), even to try to Playtest it here at Dallas, as long as the players don't mind playing in high elven (Spanish) ... hehehe

Sincerely, I expect WotC to force the groups to buy miniatures and software, which not necessarily means the new edition will not provide a more lean and enjoyable experience.

Zelgadas
08-23-2007, 08:43 PM
Actually, if Saga Edition is anything to go by, 4th Edition will require miniatures much less than 3.5 does.

[Edit: corrected Freudian slip.]

PhishStyx
08-23-2007, 10:13 PM
I pretty much certainly will not buy a D&D 4th edition that retains any of the following:

- classes,
- levels,
- ability scores that do not directly affecting rolls,
- feats (especially those that alter core (usually combat related) rules for individual characters),
- the current combat system (notably the Attacks of Opportunity, armor class, the attack bonus system, the insanely complex movement system, etc.),
- character advancement based primarily in killing "monsters,"
- alignments (YECH),
- the cast and forget magic system & the inane somatic, verbal, ingredient requirements,
- the discrete spells that seem almost entirely focussed on doing slight amounts of damage with a smattering of seemingly random spells tossed in.

Grimwell
08-23-2007, 11:53 PM
I will buy the core books, read them, and make up my mind about everything else. Without demands for anything specific, but an ear for quality and usefulness in my own campaigns.

footnote: money != bad

fmitchell
08-24-2007, 12:04 AM
I pretty much certainly will not buy a D&D 4th edition that retains any of the following:

- classes,
- levels,
- ability scores that do not directly affecting rolls,
- feats (especially those that alter core (usually combat related) rules for individual characters),
- the current combat system (notably the Attacks of Opportunity, armor class, the attack bonus system, the insanely complex movement system, etc.),
- character advancement based primarily in killing "monsters,"
- alignments (YECH),
- the cast and forget magic system & the inane somatic, verbal, ingredient requirements,
- the discrete spells that seem almost entirely focussed on doing slight amounts of damage with a smattering of seemingly random spells tossed in.

So you're not buying D&D, then.

Seriously, the current combat system is slated for an overhaul, feats and a plethora of "prestige classes" will supposedly give way to talent trees, and ability scores since 3.5 do affect combat and skill values. I'd also like to think experience points will get further away from "what did you kill" and into "what did you do".

But D&D won't get rid of classes and levels any more than GURPS will give up character points, or FUDGE will give up its special dice; it's a distinguishing part of the system. And, while I'd like to hope that the magic system will either change as you describe or become optional, realistically I don't think it will. The subtitle of the new PHB is apparently "Arcane, Divine, and Martial Characters" (working from my Swiss-cheese memory), so presumably clerics and wizards (and their derivatives) will still be part of the mix.

PhishStyx
08-24-2007, 12:22 AM
So you're not buying D&D, then.


Damn straight.

But ya know, I didn't buy the last two editions either.

Ed Zachary
08-24-2007, 05:19 AM
I never bought a single 3.0 book, and I didn't buy a 3.5 book until December of 2005. I probably won't touch 4.n until some time during the next decade.

Skunkape
08-24-2007, 06:43 AM
I'll probably end up buying the core books at the very least, but probably not for at least 1 year after they release 4th. I'm somewhat gun shy after the 3.0/3.5 situation.

Plus what I'm hearing about questions as to whether 4th has been play tested enough really worries me. I hope that 4th will make improvements over 3.5, which I think is the best version they've had of the game so far.

I prefer a couple of other systems, but most players know DnD, and there has always been so much material available for DnD, mainly the monster manual and NPCs that it's just an easier system to run from a GM standpoint as far as homework is concerned.

I'm still holding my opinion as to whether it's a good upgrade or not, I've got to see it first before I'll say boo or wooohooo!

InfoStorm
08-24-2007, 08:12 AM
We already have been testing rules for things happening in 4th edition. They have been inserting new rules they want to try with each release, hidden among all of the other items. From their description of the dragon fight on the insiders site, Tome of Battle rules will be in place (the cleric is using abilities given to the crusader class), and their description of different maneivers for different weapons screams of the 9 schools from the same book. Immediate, swift, free actions appear to be used heavily, and those appeared shortly after 3.5.

Also: http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20070824
Great comic, today it pertains to the thread.

Farcaster
08-24-2007, 11:46 AM
I pretty much certainly will not buy a D&D 4th edition that retains any of the following...

So, what you're saying is you won't buy D&D in any form. It would be disingenuous to intimate otherwise. Getting rid of classes, levels, AC, monster-driven experience gain, et all, would make a game that was very NOT D&D. Personally, I like D&D and I would be extremely disappointed if it became something like GURPS Fantasy. But, we have nothing to worry about, because WotC knows that isn't what D&D players want.

PhishStyx
08-24-2007, 12:37 PM
So, what you're saying is you won't buy D&D in any form.

At least once (probably more than that), yes.


It would be disingenuous to intimate otherwise.

Didn't know I had.


Getting rid of classes, levels, AC, monster-driven experience gain, et all, would make a game that was very NOT D&D.

Don't forget the alignments.


Personally, I like D&D and I would be extremely disappointed if it became something like GURPS Fantasy. But, we have nothing to worry about, because WotC knows that isn't what D&D players want.

Truthfully, I have some difficulty imagining that WOTC distinguishes or cares about any differences between you and me. WOTC only seems to care about how many copies will sell, which is fine if you're ok with it. :cool:

Inquisitor Tremayne
08-24-2007, 01:00 PM
Truthfully, I have some difficulty imagining that WOTC distinguishes or cares about any differences between you and me. WOTC only seems to care about how many copies will sell, which is fine if you're ok with it. :cool:

Corporations are 90% (just a guess) of the time concerned with their bottom line, money. Its part of living in a consumerist society.

Just like we as consumers decide which corporations to give our money to.

WotC just so happens to have the rights to the D&D brand which frankly will sell pretty much no matter who makes it. I know I would.

I hate Wal-Mart and everything it stands for but since I have a diabetic cat and they sell cheap insulin, guess where I am buying my insulin from, Wal-Mart.

But there is a difference here with WotC. They are claiming to be creating a better, more innovative product. Only time can tell and jumping to conclusions now about it isn't going to help. I have no doubt they are ALSO concerned about making a profit, in fact I would say it is fairly obvious that they are.

The real question is, will 4th edition be mindless drivel not worth a crap or will it be the next revolutionary step in d20 gaming?

If its the first one then we know WotC was just taking advantage of its customers and after that we won't stand for it and the company will suffer a set back.

If its the latter, then we get an amazing d20 game system to play.

I also have no doubt that there is going to be errata, so be prepared for that too. No one has made a perfect RPG that I have seen.

I'm done ranting.

Farcaster
08-24-2007, 01:04 PM
Truthfully, I have some difficulty imagining that WOTC distinguishes or cares about any differences between you and me. WOTC only seems to care about how many copies will sell, which is fine if you're ok with it. :cool:

Oooh! And one more thing, PhishStyx. You thought you were going to get away and not have me say anything about this, but you aren't - Happy Birthday, old man!

PhishStyx
08-24-2007, 01:57 PM
Sorry, busy packing for my new digs, the old gamer's home. :D

Farcaster
08-26-2007, 10:53 PM
I've split off the alignment discussion to a new thread: Should the 4th Edition Alignment System Be Changed?
(http://www.penandpapergames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3481)

Zelgadas
08-29-2007, 07:28 PM
But there is a difference here with WotC. They are claiming to be creating a better, more innovative product. Only time can tell and jumping to conclusions now about it isn't going to help. I have no doubt they are ALSO concerned about making a profit, in fact I would say it is fairly obvious that they are.



The danger with this kind of statement is that it lumps all Wizards employees into a single, monolithic category. Does WotC, as a corporation, care first and foremost for its bottom line? Of course. A good bottom line ensures the corporations continued existence, just as a steady paycheck ensures an individuals ability to pay for a place to live and food to eat (and games to play, of course). Does that mean that every WotC employee is concerned first and foremost with the bottom line? Absolutely not.

Think about it from the standpoint of another kind of company that is concerned with how the consumer views that which it creates: a restaurant. There are, of course, people who are concerned with profit margins and quarterly gains and all that financial mumbo-jumbo, because that's their job. There are also the owners and managers, who are concerned with these things because they have a vested interest, more so than the other employees. But does an individual chef care what the company's profit margins are? No. The chef cares that he makes his food, that people enjoy it, and that they come back and eat it again, because that ensures his continued employment, and it's probably also pretty gratifying from a personal standpoint. I'm assuming here that this chef loves what he does.

No apply that same logic to WotC. There are the higher-ups and financial gurus who are in charge of caring about the corporation's financial health, and that's as it should be. But do the designers worry about what kind of profit WotC turns each quarter? No way. They worry about what mechanics they're going to implement, and are they going to be fun, and are people going to like them. They worry about these things not only because they are gamers, themselves, and love what they do, but because doing so ensures their continued employment in the job they love so much. Do they want WotC to turn a profit? I'm sure they do. Are they scheming ways to bilk the consumers out of their hard-earned cash? I really, really doubt it. They want to make the best game they possibly can because it's in their best interests to do so; it's their job.

If they turn out a shoddy product to make a quick buck, their sales will suck (the Internets being what they are, word will get around quickly) and they'll lose mountains of credibility with their fan base, ensuring that they lose money in the future. WotC probably wouldn't go under if that happened because they still have the Pokemon behemoth to keep them afloat, but they'd probably unload the division that oversees D&D, and that would probably mean that all of those employees would lose their jobs. Since that's not a result that any of them want, it stands to reason that they're going to do their best to make the best product they can, rather than turn out crap for quick short-term gain.

Another point: I mentioned Pokemon, and I mention that because D&D, as popular and prominent as it is in our little niche of the world, will never even hold a candle to the giant burning mountain that is Pokemon, from a financial standpoint. WotC doesn't need D&D to make a profit; they're already doing that with their other stuff. If they wanted to make a quick profit, there'd be far more effective ways to do so than releasing 4th Edition D&D, especially when you consider how angry it made some people (and come on, they were bound to see that coming; they're not morons).

Anyway, that's just my view on the whole "WotC is a greedy money-making corporation" debate.

Digital Arcanist
08-30-2007, 03:13 PM
You guys speak as if some gestapo will bust down your door on the eve of 4th edition's release and confiscate all of your books.

I've been listening to the podcasts and all the releases coming out for the remainder of the year will be compatible with the new edition. You won't have to convert anything. In addition, they will still release source books for 3.5 up until 2009.

I like 3.5 and will continue to play it until all of my players and GM's agree its time to move onto 4th edition.

You need only buy the three core books anyway so you won't have to spend lots of money. I'm sure they will put out a reduced price starter set anyway.

Everything will be fine.

rabkala
08-31-2007, 05:27 PM
I'm assuming here that this chef loves what he does.

Another point: I mentioned Pokemon.

Assuming the chef loves his job is a huge leap. Take my employer for an example. There are the few on top who care only for the bottom line. We few in the middle who only really care about keeping the few on top happy. The workers only care about the product to the extent we tell them to care. The workers will do the least amount of work as possible without knowingly endangering their job. If they get away with x on Tuesday, they will try to get away with x and y on Wednesday. If they get away with x + y on Wednesday, they will try to get away with x + y and z on Thursday. The cycle goes around and around. While somewhere in the back of your mind you know you should care about the product, you really just care about doing just enough to get paid.

Lets use the tobacco companies as a model. Huge companies who knowingly produce a bad product, but generally only care about the addiction factor to ensure continued sales. They know that certain chemicals are untested unknown or outright bad, so they try to hide the evidence. Lets use soda companies, looks a lot like the tobacco companies. How about the food manufactures who knowingly put extra sugar, fat, and sodium in the 'childrens' selections? How about the movie makers and record labels who know if you tell people they like it, hire a few critics to tell people it's good, and shove it in the consumers face enough - sales will be high?

The whole Pokemon defense, doesn't work. If WoTC doesn't need D&D to make a profit, then why bother with it? Why not tinker with it? Why not try to make it like the more profitable things? Why not try to make it into a brainless cash trap like the cards, the minis, or the video games? All the data seems to suggest that there is a lot of money to be made by whoring the game out and dumbing it down for the kids. Those WoTC executives are surely saying, "Tradition be damned! We need to make more profit any way we can, even if that means stepping on a few fans in the process."

Doom is on the horizon my friend.

Zelgadas
08-31-2007, 08:21 PM
Assuming the chef loves his job is a huge leap.

In most cases, I'd say that's fair. However, when you're talking about gamers who make games for a living, I don't think it's that much of a stretch. Tobacco companies are, I think, an unfair comparison. Typically, one works at a tobacco company because they pay well, not because one believes in what they're doing. You don't go into game design for the money, though. There are many more fields that pay more and are much easier to get into. If you're a game designer, you're doing it because you love games and you love to design games. Just because WotC is a big company doesn't mean that that changes. Also, you're talking about a product that's physically addictive and comparing it to games. A game is only sometimes addictive psychologically, and even then only when it's good. Simply put, a tobacco company can keep churning out stuff that does nothing but kill people, and as long as there's nicotine in it people will buy it. If WotC churns out bad product, people will stop buying it because they'll have no reason to.


The whole Pokemon defense, doesn't work. If WoTC doesn't need D&D to make a profit, then why bother with it? Why not tinker with it? Why not try to make it like the more profitable things? Why not try to make it into a brainless cash trap like the cards, the minis, or the video games? All the data seems to suggest that there is a lot of money to be made by whoring the game out and dumbing it down for the kids. Those WoTC executives are surely saying, "Tradition be damned! We need to make more profit any way we can, even if that means stepping on a few fans in the process."

Doom is on the horizon my friend.This may very well be the case; I don't profess to be an expert in business strategies. My question to you, though, is why would they make D&D into one of these other things when they already have products that fill those roles? If they make it a minis game, aren't they just competing with their existing lines? And I'd disagree quite strongly that all of the data suggest that they're "dumbing it down for the kids". Honestly, I don't think there's enough data to be able to make a definitive statement here. You can have your doom and gloom and chicken little scenarios, but I prefer not to take the alarmist position. WotC has made some bold decisions with recent products, and to very good effect (at least in my opinion). They may continue that trend, they may not; I prefer to hope that they will.

InfoStorm
09-04-2007, 10:48 AM
My only issue with 4.0 coming out is that 3.5e isn't disused in any way. They are releasing 4.0 less then a year since "running out of ideas" for 3.5. IMHO they should be taking at LEAST a whole year to test, refine, and build content for 4.0 before even thinking about releasing it. With all the books release, they will be generating income for a while, even if no new books were released.