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Moritz
08-15-2007, 04:17 PM
I was thinking today about how unbalanced D&D is.

At 1st level, a Fighter vs Wizard - we all know what's going to happen.

But at 18th level. I totally believe the Wizard will win just because of raw power.

Any ideas on this?

Ed Zachary
08-15-2007, 04:34 PM
You're exactly right on those results Moritz, but a low level balanced group needs the spell support from that peon wizard. Like Mount, Message or Comprehend Languages. Cast at the right moment a cantrip like Daze can be deadly to a fourth level fighter.

Same with the high level groups, some monsters can't be taken out by spells alone, they need to be pummeled by cold steel.

Wizards start getting more powerful at higher levels, and that happens at around ninth level.

Farcaster
08-15-2007, 05:04 PM
Well, I don't know that the outcome could quite be called predetermined for a 1st level fighter versus a wizard. If the wizard is able to start the combat with some range, he has a good chance of killing the fighter with a well placed spell or two and some ranged fire. If the wizard doesn't have the opportunity to put any distance between himself and the fighter before the combat though, he's probably toast. And really, the same thing applies at higher levels in my experience. Even a high level wizard who is in combat toe-to-toe with a fighter type is going to probably loose unless he makes some good damage rolls or the fighter fails a crucial save early in the fight.

Ed Zachary
08-15-2007, 05:24 PM
Well, I don't know that the outcome could quite be called predetermined for a 1st level fighter versus a wizard. If the wizard is able to start the combat with some range, he has a good chance of killing the fighter with a well placed spell or two and some ranged fire.

The first level Wizard would have to roll well on three Magic Missile spells. Since the range is only 110 feet, the Fighter may be able to close on him in one round. I don't see how the Wizard would stand a chance. Plus the fighter may be able to kill the Wizard with one arrow from alot further away than any spell.


If the wizard doesn't have the opportunity to put any distance between himself and the fighter before the combat though, he's probably toast.

He's definitely toast, unless the Fighter keeps fumbling. Can you cite a scenario where the Wizard could beat the Fighter?


And really, the same thing applies at higher levels in my experience. Even a high level wizard who is in combat toe-to-toe with a fighter type is going to probably loose unless he makes some good damage rolls or the fighter fails a crucial save early in the fight.

Unless the high level Fighter has items that cast potent arcane spells on himself, then he's toast. The Wizard can stay out of range, protected from arrows, and just toast the Fighter.

Ed Zachary
08-15-2007, 05:32 PM
I posted this elsewhere, it highlights the five major points of survivability for high level characters.


Anyway, once a character achieved high level status, they had accumulated a long list of rivals and enemies. A foolish player could see his character die in seconds if he was careless. Having an interesting character was alway number one, but there were five areas of importance for viable longlevity:
* Speed & Mobility (to run away, or catch an opponent)
* Evasion (if your opponent can't find you, you're safe)
* Detection (you can't oppose what you don't know is there)
* Destruction (if you can't effect your opponents, why bother them)
* Resistance (even in the best laid out plans, you will be attacked at some point)

The Wizard has the advantage in the first three, the last two are even.

Farcaster
08-15-2007, 06:26 PM
He's definitely toast, unless the Fighter keeps fumbling. Can you cite a scenario where the Wizard could beat the Fighter?

If the playing field is completely flat, you're probably right. But, if the wizard can get a jump on the Fighter and set himself up right, he could be in an elevated position, preferably with some cover/concealment. He could also start the fight from 160 or more feet away using a light crossbow and try to get a hit in on his warrior opponent in the first round, and hopefully have enough time for a magic missile or two in the next two rounds before the fighter could get to him.


Unless the high level Fighter has items that cast potent arcane spells on himself, then he's toast. The Wizard can stay out of range, protected from arrows, and just toast the Fighter.
Agreed, as I said, if the wizard is able to stay out of range, he'll probably win. But, if the fighter gets the jump on him, it's very likely he's going down. I've seen the dwarven fighter in my group output enough damage in a single round using power-attack to take out any wizard of his level - sometimes even twice over and even if that wizard had stoneskin running.

shilar
08-16-2007, 12:18 AM
Farcasters got it right. In close the fighters always got the advantage. At mid range give it to the wizard. Extreme range depends on the fighters build a range fighters a little better off at the 100' plus ranges than a wizard. Also with high level characters you have to factor in magic items. An amulet of spell resistance and boots of speed could make the wizards life difficult. Or worse yet something that casts antimagic field. Given the right conditions none of the players handbook classes is really at an advantage over another class at any level. Except for maybe the bard who isn't much use without allies.

Grimwell
08-16-2007, 12:43 AM
The question is moot. I get this all the time in my online gaming world "Class X is unbalanced" and it only matters when player classes are fighting each other. D&D is designed for the classes to work together as a party. The encounters are tuned with the idea that the four core roles are going to be represented and working as one.

Class balance really can't exist in any game, without eliminating the unique value each class brings. "Classless" systems were inspired by the drive to create balance, but even that is an illusion as some builds are greater than others, and people end up either taking the 'better' build or taking the one that they find interesting but admitting that it's not as optimal.

All of this feeds into the min-maxers fetish of making the best possible character ever, even though they know it's really not going to happen.

Now, when you turn the game on it's head and let players fight with each other, class balance becomes an issue - but then it's still not attainable in a game designed for team play instead of conflict. Which is why I don't bother with discussions of balance at my table.

Ed Zachary
08-16-2007, 04:51 AM
Farcasters got it right. In close the fighters always got the advantage. At mid range give it to the wizard. Extreme range depends on the fighters build a range fighters a little better off at the 100' plus ranges than a wizard.

How at any range will a first level Wizard beat a first level fighter? Unless you control the dice or cripple the Fighter.

Even at close range if the high level Fighter doesn't know the high level Wizard is there, how can the Fighter win? Have you ever played a high level Wizard?


Also with high level characters you have to factor in magic items. An amulet of spell resistance and boots of speed could make the wizards life difficult. Or worse yet something that casts antimagic field. Given the right conditions none of the players handbook classes is really at an advantage over another class at any level. Except for maybe the bard who isn't much use without allies.

Without some sort of Gem of Seeing, the Fighter is dead in the water.

Without some sort of flying, the Fighter is dead in the water.

No matter who close or high level.

starfalconkd
08-16-2007, 08:09 AM
Depends what kind of fighter though. An appropriately equipped high level archer type fighter can destroy a wizard. Also, it's kind of tacky, but you can always turn your gem of seeing into lenses of seeing for some extra gold. Then mr. fighter can always see mr. wizard. The other way to deal with a wizard is to grapple him, most wizards will end up dead. Flying up to confront a wizard using potions or items is suicide, a smart wizard will dispel that quickly, try a dimension door or teleport item to get to the space five feet above the flying wizard and fall on him (then ride him to the ground screaming something appropriate since you are well over his encumbrance).

Vimachipal
08-16-2007, 09:13 AM
Depends what kind of fighter though. An appropriately equipped high level archer type fighter can destroy a wizard.

As someone who plays wizards, higher level wizards use spells like Protection from Arrows. That is only a 2nd level spell, there are "Greater" house versions of that spell that offer a bit more protection. The archer must first find the wizard before he can shoot at her.


Also, it's kind of tacky, but you can always turn your gem of seeing into lenses of seeing for some extra gold. Then mr. fighter can always see mr. wizard.

True Seeing only has a range of 120 feet, twice that with metamagic enlarge. Most of my spell arsenal has a range well over that. I doubt mr. fighter gets close enough to ever see me.

shilar
08-16-2007, 01:01 PM
On a flat open surface the high level wizard would have the advantage. But with a little terrain the fighter can manuver in close without being detected. Most spells require some knowledge of where the target is to be effective. Also protection from arrows only gives you damage protection 10/magic, that means a +1 bow defeats its protection automatically. It is not a very effective spell at high levels. As for finding the wizard most spells make a lot of noise. If you ready an action to start his casting you can nail him. You shake the wizard once and he's yours.
Oh and for the low level fight sleep is a first level spell. Cast it and coup de grace.

ronpyatt
08-16-2007, 04:39 PM
Of course they cannot balance all of D&D, because there are too many variations, possibilities, and hundreds of billions of feat, weapon, armor, and magic item combinations to account for every possible outcome.

However, there have been enough rabid Wizards and Fighters out there ready to complain the moment they detect something that is obviously unbalancing.

So, I say that the Wizard and Fighter are equal in every way that matters.

I might also add that because the Sorcerer is my favorite PHB core class, it is more equal than any of the other classes.

starfalconkd
08-17-2007, 07:21 AM
As someone who plays wizards, higher level wizards use spells like Protection from Arrows. That is only a 2nd level spell, there are "Greater" house versions of that spell that offer a bit more protection. The archer must first find the wizard before he can shoot at her.
True Seeing only has a range of 120 feet, twice that with metamagic enlarge. Most of my spell arsenal has a range well over that. I doubt mr. fighter gets close enough to ever see me.

This is why I said equipped. Most spells, including fireball, show the direction which they came from. An archer with the seeking property does not need to see you to hit you as his bow ignores all miss chance from cover/ concealment. He only has to attack the right space and hit your AC. An archer fighter will likely have a decent spot check and the feat quick reconnoiter allows the check as a free action. Or worse, he may have the feat hear the unseen which allows him to know where you are by sound, all that chanting is quite noisy. Continuing, said archer will probably be carrying a magic quiver loaded with arrows of various metal types and as long as his bow is +1 all his arrows are magic. Protection from arrows only gives dr 10/magic.
As to home brewed spells with better protection, I try not to allow new spells to go too far beyond what established ones can do. Wizards are dangerous enough without me adding to their arsenal. I allow my pcs to create spells, even improve on existing ideas (one pc created better versions of false life). But protection from arrows already has a better version, it's called stoneskin. I'm not a fan of allowing wizards to cast spells that give them ridiculous dr, if they could do that why play anything else.
Finally, this whole thing is moot because it's scenario based. If the fighter and wizard run into each other in a five foot wide by ten foot high corridor we all know what's going to happen. The short version is, the winner depends on the scenario.

rabkala
08-17-2007, 10:08 PM
I was thinking today about how unbalanced D&D is.

At 1st level, a Fighter vs Wizard - we all know what's going to happen.

But at 18th level. I totally believe the Wizard will win just because of raw power.

Any ideas on this?
Isn't this question now moot? With 4th edition, the real power now lies in the hands of gnomish bards!


The question is moot. I get this all the time in my online gaming world "Class X is unbalanced" and it only matters when player classes are fighting each other. D&D is designed for the classes to work together as a party. The encounters are tuned with the idea that the four core roles are going to be represented and working as one.

Class balance really can't exist in any game, without eliminating the unique value each class brings. "Classless" systems were inspired by the drive to create balance, but even that is an illusion as some builds are greater than others, and people end up either taking the 'better' build or taking the one that they find interesting but admitting that it's not as optimal.

Well said. The way things should be.


Finally, this whole thing is moot because it's scenario based. If the fighter and wizard run into each other in a five foot wide by ten foot high corridor we all know what's going to happen. The short version is, the winner depends on the scenario.

They run battle royals at the local game shop. They give you rules for character creation, and everyone fights until there is only one standing. In most high level scenarios, a spellcaster wins. There are numerous scenarios where fighter types are best and even some where rogue types are best.

Ed Zachary
08-17-2007, 10:34 PM
As someone who plays wizards, higher level wizards use spells like Protection from Arrows. That is only a 2nd level spell, there are "Greater" house versions of that spell that offer a bit more protection. The archer must first find the wizard before he can shoot at her.

Right, the Wizard could be in any direction or distance, the Archer could only fire in random directions and ranges and hope to get lucky. A Fireball/Enlarge from a 20th level Wizard has a range of 2,400 feet. Add a Quicken/Dimension Door and the Archer has no chance.


True Seeing only has a range of 120 feet, twice that with metamagic enlarge. Most of my spell arsenal has a range well over that. I doubt mr. fighter gets close enough to ever see me.

Few people consider the range of spells. Beyond 120 feet the Archer is blind as a bat.

Ed Zachary
08-17-2007, 10:47 PM
This is why I said equipped. Most spells, including fireball, show the direction which they came from. An archer with the seeking property does not need to see you to hit you as his bow ignores all miss chance from cover/ concealment. He only has to attack the right space and hit your AC. An archer fighter will likely have a decent spot check and the feat quick reconnoiter allows the check as a free action. Or worse, he may have the feat hear the unseen which allows him to know where you are by sound, all that chanting is quite noisy.

WTF... do you use anything from the core books?

What are "seeking property", "reconnoiter", and "hear the unseen"?

Give me the three core and epic books and I'll make an epic wizard that could safely kill any equal level fighter without breaking a sweat.


As to home brewed spells with better protection, I try not to allow new spells to go too far beyond what established ones can do.

Like creating a "Greater" version of a second level spell?

It seems like you're willing to go for the odd specialty stuff for your Archer though.


Finally, this whole thing is moot because it's scenario based. If the fighter and wizard run into each other in a five foot wide by ten foot high corridor we all know what's going to happen. The short version is, the winner depends on the scenario.

The Wizard casts Quickened Force Cage, Prismatic Wall/Sphere, or a variety of other spells and the battle is quickly over with the same results.

starfalconkd
08-18-2007, 06:46 AM
WTF... do you use anything from the core books?
What are "seeking property", "reconnoiter", and "hear the unseen"?
Give me the three core and epic books and I'll make an epic wizard that could safely kill any equal level fighter without breaking a sweat.
Like creating a "Greater" version of a second level spell?
It seems like you're willing to go for the odd specialty stuff for your Archer though.
The Wizard casts Quickened Force Cage, Prismatic Wall/Sphere, or a variety of other spells and the battle is quickly over with the same results.

Uhm, Seeking is a magic weapon property from the DMG (it's a +1 ability on the ranged table)? You can't get any more core than that. Quick Reconnoiter and Hear the Unseen are feats from Complete Adventurer. I didn't realize that book was so far out of the main stream...
I consider none of these odd specialty stuff.
I'd like to meet the 21st level wizard who can cast quickened forcecage, it's an 11th level spell using only the three core books and Epic.
I'm really surprised how people fail to think outside the box. What if the fighter has boots of teleportation? Or worse, what if he has use magic device skill ranks and a scroll of Mordenkainen's Disjunction (highly unlikely, I know but it could happen)?
I stand by my argument that the fight is situational (and perhaps tactical).

Ed Zachary
08-18-2007, 08:08 AM
Quick Reconnoiter and Hear the Unseen are feats from Complete Adventurer. I didn't realize that book was so far out of the main stream...

How many people own that book compared to the three core books?

I'd predict less than 10%.


I consider none of these odd specialty stuff.

How many D&D novels have you read? How many of the 3.5 books do you own?

Few people consider their oddities as different.


I'd like to meet the 21st level wizard who can cast quickened forcecage, it's an 11th level spell using only the three core books and Epic.

23rd level would be the soonest a 7th level spell could be quickened under the core and epic rule books. Any 6th level or lower spell could be quickened at 21st level. Plenty of Quickened "Wall of X" spells to block the Fighter at 21st level.


I'm really surprised how people fail to think outside the box. What if the fighter has boots of teleportation?

You keep failing to acknowledge the most important point... If the Fighter can't see or detect the Wizard, where will he Teleport to?

Regarding "Seeking", my mistake. I thought you were referring to an odd rule that may have been effective. Seeking per the DMG requires the Archer to know which "square" to fire into. Again, how will the Archer know which square if he has no clue where the Wizard is?


Or worse, what if he has use magic device skill ranks and a scroll of Mordenkainen's Disjunction (highly unlikely, I know but it could happen)?

Mord's Disjunction has a small range and limited area of effect. Even with 100 of such scrolls it is unlikely that Fighter can hit the Wizard.


I stand by my argument that the fight is situational (and perhaps tactical).

Like a smart player with the Fighter and an idiot with the Wizard. Or a setup by the DM.

rabkala
08-18-2007, 09:49 AM
I own the Complete Adventurer as well as all the complete books through champion. I must be part of that 10%.

I have read nearly every DragonLance novel, about 50 of the Forgotten Realms novels, and a handful of Ravenloft novels. I own 17 hard copies of the 3.5 books off the top of my head (a couple pdf's as well). Should I go count my 3rd edition or older books? It might take awhile, but if it would help you calm down... Is that overly odd or different? When did WoTC issue normality police charters? Umm, why did we care again?

I do agree that a wizard is at an advantage at high levels. I would give the victory to the wizard about 85% of the time and extreme range will favor the wizard. There are situations where the fighter will win. The wizard only has so many spells memorized, especially all sorts of bizarre meta magic variants. Depending on the build and the situation, weird things can happen. If you start getting into combat builds, many offensive powerhouse builds could only need one hit to kill the 20th level wizard.

Ed Zachary
08-18-2007, 11:32 AM
I own the Complete Adventurer as well as all the complete books through champion. I must be part of that 10%.

I have read nearly every DragonLance novel, about 50 of the Forgotten Realms novels, and a handful of Ravenloft novels.

I own 17 hard copies of the 3.5 books off the top of my head (a couple pdf's as well). Should I go count my 3rd edition or older books?

Seeing your reading list... that you own many books comes as no surprise.

But as you acknowledged, you're a hard core gamer.


It might take awhile, but if it would help you calm down... Is that overly odd or different? When did WoTC issue normality police charters? Umm, why did we care again?

I don't know, why do you care or feel policed? You do understand that most gamers haven't read 50+ D&D novels, or own 17 hard copies. Right?

Ed Zachary
08-18-2007, 12:11 PM
Here's a challenge that I hope many would find interesting...

Two epic characters fight in a dueling room, the battle fought out here in this forum, with a neutral party volunteering to referee.

Qualifications...
1) Same experience points, 210,000 points or more
2) Same point buy in for ability scores.
3) Same gold pieces to purchase items from the DMG.
4) Equal rule book references; three core books, epic book, and one other of player's choice.

I believe it would be interesting and a good learning experience. Less experienced players would get to see how more experienced players set up their characters and ran them in a battle scenario.

I will volunteer to DM a battle between two players, if anyone is interested.

rabkala
08-18-2007, 01:22 PM
Here's a challenge that I hope many would find interesting...

Two epic characters fight in a dueling room, the battle fought out here in this forum, with a neutral party volunteering to referee.

It can be quite fun. Not just as an "in your face, I am right" kind of way, but just a good pure combat contest. Maybe we can have farcaster sponsor this as a monthly event! He could throw a cute little icon or title at the winner and give them bragging rights for the month.

Why go into epic? Do you realize that most gamers don't own the epic level handbook or think its broken? Why not just up to a 20 level build?


1) Same experience points, 210,000 points or more
It is good to say experience points as opposed to levels. Remember the 20% penalty for multiclassing if you are going to dip into different things in your build. Or were you just suggesting straight builds?


3) Same gold pieces to purchase items from the DMG.

It is usually a good idea to set some more rules on magic items. Maybe
a) not more than 50% of gold spent on a single item
b) no more than 25% of gold spent on single use or disposable items
c) Not more than 25% of total gold spent on character created items by use of creation feats
d) No artifacts or weapons of legacy

At least that is one common cause of controversy in similar events I have seen.


I don't know, why do you care or feel policed? You do understand that most gamers haven't read 50+ D&D novels, or own 17 hard copies. Right? I just don't think Iam all that odd (or starfalconkd). I know several gamers with collections that dwarf mine. DM's tend to need more books than players which may scew the results a bit.

Ed Zachary
08-18-2007, 02:00 PM
It can be quite fun. Not just as an "in your face, I am right" kind of way, but just a good pure combat contest. Maybe we can have farcaster sponsor this as a monthly event! He could throw a cute little icon or title at the winner and give them bragging rights for the month.

If he's up to it... I see plusses for this, it's a good chance to see how other players can run characters in combat situations. Role playing is not all combat, but it is a fun part at times.


Why go into epic? Do you realize that most gamers don't own the epic level handbook or think its broken? Why not just up to a 20 level build?

No need to go epic, that's just where we were at the moment.


It is good to say experience points as opposed to levels. Remember the 20% penalty for multiclassing if you are going to dip into different things in your build. Or were you just suggesting straight builds?

I've ignored that rule, so I never considered that. I used exp instead of level because racial HD and LA come into play.


It is usually a good idea to set some more rules on magic items. Maybe
a) not more than 50% of gold spent on a single item
b) no more than 25% of gold spent on single use or disposable items
c) Not more than 25% of total gold spent on character created items by use of creation feats
d) No artifacts or weapons of legacy

At least that is one common cause of controversy in similar events I have seen.

Those are reasonable limitations.


I just don't think Iam all that odd (or starfalconkd). I know several gamers with collections that dwarf mine. DM's tend to need more books than players which may scew the results a bit.

I've accumulated seven books now as a DM (PHB1, PHB2, MM1, DMG1, Epic, FRCS & Underdark), that's more than anyone I know. And I don't know anyone who has read more than two or three D&D novels. So I guess I am surprised to see people with such large collections.

I play uder the assumption that simple characters with interesting backgrounds and personalities are much better than what I would call obscure classes, feats, spells, etc. So far I think I have done a good job with the NPCs im my play by post game, keeping the players guessing without leaving the core books.

I know that I am odd in my own way, just from my personal collection.

starfalconkd
08-18-2007, 06:58 PM
How many D&D novels have you read? How many of the 3.5 books do you own?

I used to read quite a few D&D novels when I was younger, I was a Dragonlance fan like everyone else. I'm actually attempting to read Dragons of the Dwarven Depths to see if it still holds my interest. Recently I've read precious few D&D novels, only The Last Mythal Trilogy comes to mind.
I own: PHB, DMG, MM, Complete Warrior, Complete Arcane, Complete Divine, Complete Adventurer, Races of Stone, Races of the Wild, Races of Destiny, The Draconomicon, Libris Mortis, Lords of Madness, and Book of Exalted Deeds. I own some 3.0 books and FR books too. My question is does the fact that I own these and have access to just about all the other books make you superior to me in some way? Because that is how you are coming across.
As to your argument against disjunction, I already mentioned spot and listen. And if the fight took place in a room, the small area of effect would be plenty. As I said, situational.

Ed Zachary
08-18-2007, 11:27 PM
My question is does the fact that I own these and have access to just about all the other books make you superior to me in some way? Because that is how you are coming across.

Well you asked, so I feel obliged to answer. It makes you seem as someone who is looking for an advantage by scouring sources of info that most other players don't know exists. In my opinion you appear to be bored by the mundane characters that are constrained by the very limed info in the three core books. You've created so many characters that you need new information to create new concepts. Because 90% of your RPG time is spent in character creation and you do very little actual role play. Most of your characters are never role played. And because you've rarely developed a personality for those characters, you're bored by the limited choices of concepts.


As to your argument against disjunction, I already mentioned spot and listen. And if the fight took place in a room, the small area of effect would be plenty. As I said, situational.

What kind of epic Wizard or Sorcerer would get caught in a small room with powerful enemies nearby, and without the proper Quickened spells to get out of the situation? Have you ever played an epic arcane spell caster with a DM who really challenged the players?

starfalconkd
08-19-2007, 06:12 AM
Well you asked, so I feel obliged to answer. It makes you seem as someone who is looking for an advantage by scouring sources of info that most other players don't know exists. In my opinion you appear to be bored by the mundane characters that are constrained by the very limed info in the three core books. You've created so many characters that you need new information to create new concepts. Because 90% of your RPG time is spent in character creation and you do very little actual role play. Most of your characters are never role played. And because you've rarely developed a personality for those characters, you're bored by the limited choices of concepts.
What kind of epic Wizard or Sorcerer would get caught in a small room with powerful enemies nearby, and without the proper Quickened spells to get out of the situation? Have you ever played an epic arcane spell caster with a DM who really challenged the players?

I find your arrogance and assumptions about my playing style insulting. Just because I buy books does not make me a bad a role player. The very fact that you make that assumption without ever having played a game with me speaks volumes about your own abilities. And, for reference, character creation takes a day or two at most. Writing a characters history can take a week or more. Playing said character goes on for months. Perhaps I'm not bored by limited choice of concept, maybe I choose to accept the vast possibilities presented by the system, rather than be an arrogant elitist who only uses my core books.
If role playing is your main concern than why do you invalidate everyone who ever played a fighter by saying wizards are better?
As for a dm who really challenges my players, I am one. I don't usually get a chance to be on the other side of the table.
If the wizard walks into the room, he may think he has spells to get out, but quickened spells can be interrupted like any other spell. In the case of the archer, he is most likely going first (high dex plus imp. init. and possibly superior init.) and he can simply ready and action and shoot the wizard on his turn when he starts casting. Using manyshot with greater weapon spec, magic bow, and high str the archer can deal enough damage to disrupt the wizards spells. Game over.
I also think your forgetting that the wizard will either have inferior equipment or be lower level than the archer. A wizard must pay to write spells in his book. Otherwise he only has his starting spells plus two spells per level. At 100 gp/page that's a hefty chunk of your money down the drain.
I'm done with this discussion now. I'm not here to be insulted.

Ed Zachary
08-19-2007, 09:06 AM
I find your arrogance and assumptions about my playing style insulting. Just because I buy books does not make me a bad a role player.

You asked me, so I answered. I never said you were a bad role player, that's your guilt speaking.


The very fact that you make that assumption without ever having played a game with me speaks volumes about your own abilities.

Like the ability to recognize a phony who mostly plays by himself.


And, for reference, character creation takes a day or two at most. Writing a characters history can take a week or more. Playing said character goes on for months. Perhaps I'm not bored by limited choice of concept, maybe I choose to accept the vast possibilities presented by the system, rather than be an arrogant elitist who only uses my core books.

Good for you, I'm sure you have many friends nearby who share your devotion. Or maybe not.


If role playing is your main concern than why do you invalidate everyone who ever played a fighter by saying wizards are better?

Do you feel invalidated? My comments were that an high level Wizard will most likely defeat an equally high level Fighter in a one on one battle. In that situation, they are better. But I still enjoy playing my high level gighter, because he has his own attributed personality and can do some fun things in the game. He's a great team player.


As for a dm who really challenges my players, I am one. I don't usually get a chance to be on the other side of the table. If the wizard walks into the room, he may think he has spells to get out, but quickened spells can be interrupted like any other spell. In the case of the archer, he is most likely going first (high dex plus imp. init. and possibly superior init.) and he can simply ready and action and shoot the wizard on his turn when he starts casting. Using manyshot with greater weapon spec, magic bow, and high str the archer can deal enough damage to disrupt the wizards spells. Game over.

"If the wizard walks into the room"... if he strolls into the room without proper precaution, then he deserves what he gets.


I also think your forgetting that the wizard will either have inferior equipment or be lower level than the archer. A wizard must pay to write spells in his book. Otherwise he only has his starting spells plus two spells per level. At 100 gp/page that's a hefty chunk of your money down the drain. I'm done with this discussion now. I'm not here to be insulted.

Don't forget setting up the lab and library. My Fighter has six most excellent weapons, each has a specialty. They were extremely expensive to obtain. He has a backup suit of armor he keeps in a Bag of Holding. And since he can't cast spells, he has magic items that protect him with some of the best Abjuration, Divination and Transmutation spells out there. He also goes through quite a few Potions.

He took out a 20th level Lich one on one (back in 2nd ed) by Teleporting over its Prismatic Sphere, then activated an Anti-Magic Shell (can't do that in 3.5) as he fell on the Lich.

Moritz
08-19-2007, 09:42 AM
At ease gentlemen.

rabkala
08-19-2007, 11:11 AM
If there were more people whom loved and supported the game by buying the books, we probably wouldn't have to worry about so many edition changes.

D&D is a tabletop game first and always has been, roleplay is added for dimension and connection. There are some people who should probably just LARP because they do not understand this.

So is anyone up to the challenge, or is it just too fun to argue?

Farcaster
08-20-2007, 11:48 AM
Please do not launch personal attacks at other members here. This is not that kind of forum. The forum rules (http://www.penandpapergames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3415) are now linked at the top of every forum, and if anyone has a question about them, please feel free to drop me a PM.