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TheYeti1775
08-08-2007, 10:57 AM
Wasn't there a published book with Alternate Epic rules as to the Epic Level Handbook and the 3.5 DMG?

Thanks.

Moritz
08-08-2007, 12:25 PM
If there was, I'd like to see it. I didn't favor some of the spell goings-on in that book.

Ed Zachary
08-08-2007, 12:40 PM
The epic feats for Fighters sucked.

RealmsDM
08-08-2007, 02:25 PM
I dunno... perfect two weapon fighting is pretty nasty...

Ed Zachary
08-08-2007, 02:38 PM
I dunno... perfect two weapon fighting is pretty nasty...

Some of the feats are good, but the prerequisites make them absolutly useless.

Do you have your 25 Dexterity to use that?

Moritz
08-09-2007, 10:15 AM
Stuff like that would make you OCD and have to design a spreadsheet to plan your character's every step.

Ed Zachary
08-09-2007, 12:20 PM
Stuff like that would make you OCD and have to design a spreadsheet to plan your character's every step.

Exactly... better start working on that Dex at first level!

TheYeti1775
08-09-2007, 12:29 PM
Here's the thread I posted on EnWorld about it as well, for anyone that wanted their suggestions.

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=203473

I might look into a few of them.
Mainly we are looking at where we want to go from here deal.
We are playing in Dawnforge (Fantasy Flight Games) and are all 15th/16th level currently. The stage of the campaign is at a 'good' wrap up point if we decided to do that in the next couple of sessions. Its mainly a question if we want to go forward into Epicness or not. So was going to check out possible alternatives for the rules.

RealmsDM
08-09-2007, 06:06 PM
yea, the prereq's are a bit out there, but hey, its still a cool feat. It's possible to hit the 25 mark in a ability at high level, but I usually let players take it as long as they have a 20+ Dex, and they can "sell me" on why their PC deserves it (in character of course- buying the DM nachos & beer has no bearing on in game decissions);)

starfalconkd
08-10-2007, 08:15 AM
I believe if you have an enhancement item that bumps you up to the required number, you qualify for the feat. You just can't use the feat without your item. If you have the 19 dex required for greater two weapon and +6 gloves, you have your 25.
But the epic fighter feats do suck compared to the epic arcane and divine feats.

Ed Zachary
08-10-2007, 08:48 AM
I believe if you have an enhancement item that bumps you up to the required number, you qualify for the feat. You just can't use the feat without your item. If you have the 19 dex required for greater two weapon and +6 gloves, you have your 25.
But the epic fighter feats do suck compared to the epic arcane and divine feats.

Either that or the DM can make a house rule that modifies ridiculous prerequisites.

If not the only characters that will have that feat are those that were created high level on the spot without ever being played.

Moritz
08-10-2007, 08:55 AM
I was under the impression that you had to have the BASE number up that high to qualify. That things which gave you stat bumps did not count.

TheYeti1775
08-10-2007, 09:49 AM
I was under the impression that you had to have the BASE number up that high to qualify. That things which gave you stat bumps did not count.

Depends on your interpetation.

Some include Inherant bonus, such as those gained via the various Books.
Some will let things like Domain Powers count.

Generally I do not let Magic Items count unless they are like the books where they are used up and then permanent afterwards.
Otherwise you could take a Potion, level up, take the feat, then just take a potion everytime you wanted to use the feat.

ajmuszkiewicz
08-14-2007, 09:08 AM
Otherwise you could take a Potion, level up, take the feat, then just take a potion everytime you wanted to use the feat.

This smacks of the "leveling eq" from the MUDs of the 90's... Such a broken system.

I tend to use an "if you can take it off, it doesn't count" approach to bonus stacking for prereq purposes. Inherent bonuses, yes. Bonuses from worn items or potions, no.

But, I really don't think that Dex 25 is too bad of a prereq. Think about it: a character begins with Dex 15 at 1st level, adds +1 at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th & 20th levels (now 20), and makes some wishes for +5 inherent bonus (now 25). This is not really inconceivable or even improbable for a Dexterity-focused character.

But what about a character not focused on Dexterity?

Let's first remember that these Epic rules are meant for an infinite amount of upward scalability; the levels just keep going up. So what if you can't qualify for Perfect Two Weapon Fighting at 21st level? Maybe you can qualify at 24th, 28th or 32nd level. All you need to do is keep an eye on what feats you're taking on the way there.

The Great [Ability score] feats each add 1 to an ability score. Not as an inherent bonus, not as an Epic bonus, they just add 1. With the amount of bonus feats that get thrown at your characters at Epic levels, you should be able to take enough Great [Something] feats to qualify for most things you'd want to take.

But that's definitely taking the long view of things and delaying the instant gratification that comes with gaining a level and taking a "kewl" new feat. I can definitely delay my own gratification, usually because I can see the benefit of whatever cool rules item I want to take later on outweighs my temporary desire to want to do something cool now.

Argent
08-14-2007, 11:29 AM
And in the case of the fighter, look at how awesome his feats (in number and kind) have been up to 20th level. If they fall off a little at Epic levels...meh. But I agree, the pre-req's are doable if you have been a two-weapon fighter all along and focused on bettering that ability.

I do allow items (amulets, gloves, etc) to count towards those pre-reqs, because they are semi-permanent. My players know that those bonuses could be lost to them permanently or temporarily, depending on the situation. So if they want to rely on an item to give them an Epic feat when that item could be dispelled/disintegrated/damaged on a saving throw of 1/etc, then I am fine with that.

Having said that, I have only had one group break into Epic, and we are only in the 21st/22nd level area.

RealmsDM
08-14-2007, 05:28 PM
I guess it really depends on what type of game you're running. If its a Uber campaign with epic dragons flying around, and every evil spellcaster has the worm that walks template & has winter wight servants, then the campaign might have a few PCs walking around with ability scores in the 30's....

Farcaster
08-14-2007, 05:55 PM
I also allow items to count towards the requirements for feats Epic and otherwise. So, if the fighter has only a 12 dexterity, but he's walking around with a +2 dex item, I'll allow him to take the Dodge feat regardless. Of course, he can't actually use the feat unless he is currently meeting the prerequisites. This becomes critical in the Epic levels because of the extremely high requirements.

And actually, in my current campaign (level 17), I have one or two characters who are already adjusted into the 25-30 range for their primary stats. The most sickening example is the paladin, who with his gear, a couple inherent bonuses and an active paladin spell of his, he has something like a 28 charisma. That's an incredible bonus to his saves and a great multiplier for his LOH.

RealmsDM
08-14-2007, 08:07 PM
I guess I'm the minority here. I do not allow PCs to take feats unless their base ability score measures up.
Plus, if you lose the item, then what? Call me crazy, its just the way I like it. But that's the beauty of RPG games- you can do what you want...

Ed Zachary
08-14-2007, 08:19 PM
And in the case of the fighter, look at how awesome his feats (in number and kind) have been up to 20th level. If they fall off a little at Epic levels...meh. But I agree, the pre-req's are doable if you have been a two-weapon fighter all along and focused on bettering that ability.

I do allow items (amulets, gloves, etc) to count towards those pre-reqs, because they are semi-permanent. My players know that those bonuses could be lost to them permanently or temporarily, depending on the situation. So if they want to rely on an item to give them an Epic feat when that item could be dispelled/disintegrated/damaged on a saving throw of 1/etc, then I am fine with that.

What it comes down to is that more generous DMs will have characters that qualify for more epic feats.


I guess I'm the minority here. I do not allow PCs to take feats unless their base ability score measures up.
Plus, if you lose the item, then what? Call me crazy, its just the way I like it. But that's the beauty of RPG games- you can do what you want...

Exactly...

starfalconkd
08-15-2007, 08:14 AM
My very simple reasoning for allowing the items to count is: the really cool wizard feats don't have a stat requirement. Why should the wizard be able to take numerous great feats in epic levels without the high stat requirement? Especially when the epic wizard, with access to wish, has the easiest time getting to said requirement. At 21st level the epic wizard can select multispell, improved spell capacity, efficient item creation, enhance spell, improved heighten spell, and scribe epic scroll. If our fighter friend is not an archer his choices are pretty much dire charge or superior initiative, unless he had 18 strength and put all 5 stat adjustments there, then he might qualify overwhelming critical which is kind of awful. All the fighter's feats are denied him unless he has 25 str, dex, and/or con. I suppose you could argue this is a reason to take the great str, great dex, or great con feats, but those are kind of stupid too. The straight fighter may get more epic feats than anyone else, but he can't access any of them until he has truly epic stats.

ajmuszkiewicz
08-15-2007, 10:39 AM
My very simple reasoning for allowing the items to count is: the really cool wizard feats don't have a stat requirement. Why should the wizard be able to take numerous great feats in epic levels without the high stat requirement? Especially when the epic wizard, with access to wish, has the easiest time getting to said requirement.

Let's not forget, though, that to craft all of the Epic level magic items that the wizard undoubtedly wants to (or in some cases has to) create for himself and the rest of his party just to stay competitive at higher levels really eats up experience points. The GP Limit of nearly every settlement in nearly every world should make Epic gear nearly impossible to come by, making the wizard's ability to become a "magic item factory" almost a necessity at higher levels.

Add the added xp drain of the xp requirement of spells like wish and many of the Epic spells. Suddenly, you've got a wizard who needs to invest so much of his own reserve of xp in his own stats, his gear, and the gear and stats of his comrades that he could easily be a level or two behind the rest of his party at any given time.

So, we have a situation where wizards are being held back by the party's needs for advancement while the rest of the party don't really have call to invest any of their xp in nearly as many avenues, and you can quickly have a matter of party equality on your hands: what do you do to keep that wizard on par with the group's fighter?

Even though the fighter and rogue in the group may be gaining levels when the wizard isn't, and thus gaining some level-dependent benefits (hp, etc.), adding a few tough requirements to some feats just serve as a check and balance system to keep them from overpowering the group's wizard.

TheYeti1775
08-15-2007, 11:57 AM
I also allow items to count towards the requirements for feats Epic and otherwise. So, if the fighter has only a 12 dexterity, but he's walking around with a +2 dex item, I'll allow him to take the Dodge feat regardless. Of course, he can't actually use the feat unless he is currently meeting the prerequisites. This becomes critical in the Epic levels because of the extremely high requirements.

And actually, in my current campaign (level 17), I have one or two characters who are already adjusted into the 25-30 range for their primary stats. The most sickening example is the paladin, who with his gear, a couple inherent bonuses and an active paladin spell of his, he has something like a 28 charisma. That's an incredible bonus to his saves and a great multiplier for his LOH.

No even better is the Dawnforge game I'm in. It was run as a more high powered game. So the Point Buy was a 36+3d6 one. :rolleyes: Yes I know, yikes from most of you. :rolleyes: Don't worry the DM certainly scaled the encounters and NPC's to it.

Here is a look at Lord Lorac Dargaard's stats. Also remember in Dawnforge, at 10th level due to every PC race having abilities added of your choosing from a list, from 1st to 10th as an adjusted ECL of +2.
Fighter 10 / Celestial Heritage 5 (5 level PrC created by DM) He is beginning to take levels in Epic General (from the main Dawnforge book).
Trueborn Human
S: 26 (22 Base, +2 from 2 Legendary Point Circles (Dawnforge mechanic) +2 Gauntlets)
D: 12 (12 Base - He wears Full Plate it was easy to make this the dump stat. :cool:)
C: 20 (20 Base)
I: 14 (14 Base)
W: 16 (16 Base)
Ch: 28 (22 Base(Racial adj), +3 from Leg Point Circles, +3 Level Ups)

Took the Force of Personality feat so his Cha counts as Will saves vice his Wisdom.
Also took the Melee Weapon Mastery (Slashing), as he was focused on Sword & Board style, but his latest weapon has switched to 2-handed Greatsword style.

Our Sorc in the party had the highest score in Charisma around 31 or 33 I think. They had used all 5 cirlcels in it for a +5, as well as their level adjustments and finding items.

So depending on your game, some of those requirements are easily reached.

starfalconkd
08-16-2007, 08:28 AM
Let's not forget, though, that to craft all of the Epic level magic items that the wizard undoubtedly wants to (or in some cases has to) create for himself and the rest of his party just to stay competitive at higher levels really eats up experience points. The GP Limit of nearly every settlement in nearly every world should make Epic gear nearly impossible to come by, making the wizard's ability to become a "magic item factory" almost a necessity at higher levels.

Add the added xp drain of the xp requirement of spells like wish and many of the Epic spells. Suddenly, you've got a wizard who needs to invest so much of his own reserve of xp in his own stats, his gear, and the gear and stats of his comrades that he could easily be a level or two behind the rest of his party at any given time.

So, we have a situation where wizards are being held back by the party's needs for advancement while the rest of the party don't really have call to invest any of their xp in nearly as many avenues, and you can quickly have a matter of party equality on your hands: what do you do to keep that wizard on par with the group's fighter?

Even though the fighter and rogue in the group may be gaining levels when the wizard isn't, and thus gaining some level-dependent benefits (hp, etc.), adding a few tough requirements to some feats just serve as a check and balance system to keep them from overpowering the group's wizard.

And what about the numerous wizard who are not item crafters? Also, due to the way XP works, a wizard who falls a level behind gets more XP from any given fight. The only thing that slows wizards down is the DM being careful not to allow him to know too many spells. And that can't be overly controlled except by being careful with treasure. Still I've met PCs who are all too happy to only deal with whatever treasure you give them or that they can purchase.
A clever 21st level wizard, with the multispell feat, can destroy powerful encounters without breaking a sweat. Three spells per round may burn through the wizards repertoire quickly, but if he has been careful with spell use he can lay waste to even the most powerful threat quickly.