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Inquisitor Tremayne
07-25-2007, 02:32 PM
Anyone have any opinions on this?

Something I just thought of.

Animal Companion and a Familiar?

I'm really just trying to come up with a good fighting wizard build that utilizes the core books.

Karui_Kage
07-25-2007, 02:34 PM
Using core, you could do a Fighter/Wizard/Eldritch Knight, I believe that's one of the new prestiges in the 3.5 DMG.

I wouldn't advise a Druid or Ranger/Wizard or Sorcerer. Using a hybrid druid/fighter and a full arcane caster would result in too many skills, not enough focus. You'd need to have a lot of good stats too. Good Int for the Wizard, good Dex for the Ranger, and probably good Str and Con too. You'd also need Wis if you wanted to spellcast as the Ranger.

starfalconkd
07-25-2007, 02:53 PM
My highest level character, played in 2nd edition and converted into 3.5 was just this. I converted him to Ranger 4th/ Wizard 6th/ Eldritch Knight 11th. He was fun to play for a long time.

Inquisitor Tremayne
07-25-2007, 02:57 PM
Yeah. I think that is the way to go.

Stick with ranged combat style so as to have a high dex for protection and just be ranged support.

Karui_Kage
07-25-2007, 03:04 PM
That actually could work, now that I think about it. Ranged combat style would be nice. I always just thought of Eldritch Knight as a meleeish character, but I suppose he could work ranged as well. I don't have the abilities in front of me, so I can't say for sure though.

Inquisitor Tremayne
07-25-2007, 03:18 PM
They just get a bonus feat at 1st EK level selected from the fighter list then full base attack and spellcasting after that.

starfalconkd
07-25-2007, 03:19 PM
If you are going to go the ranged route why not play an Arcane Archer?

Inquisitor Tremayne
07-25-2007, 03:21 PM
Oh!

Ranger/Wizard/Eldritch Knight/Arcane Archer!

Karui_Kage
07-25-2007, 03:31 PM
Eh, too many classes for my tastes. That, and I'm not a big fan of Arcane Archer. No spellcasting whatsoever, and the abilities are sub-par.

shilar
07-25-2007, 03:44 PM
Arcane Archer is a decent class if you keep fighter levels to a minimum. Without spellcasting levels they are at a disadvantage over spellswords, bladesingers, and eldritch knight but lots of neat abilities. I caution against the EK because he only gets a d6 for hitpoints. You can qualify for AA with a 4 fighter(or ranger)/4 wizard.

Inquisitor Tremayne
07-25-2007, 04:04 PM
Thats right!!! I knew there was a reason I wasn't keen on EK and its that d6 hit points.

I don't have my Complete Warrior handy what are some benefits of the Spellsword and the Bladesinger? Aside from the ignore arcane spell failure.

Karui_Kage
07-25-2007, 04:37 PM
Actually, if you're willing to go away from Core, just make a Duskblade from the PHB 2. Class that incorporates arcane caster and warrior reasonably well.

shilar
07-25-2007, 04:59 PM
Bladesinger=+1 caster level every odd level best BaB progresion d8 hit die
dodge bonus to AC=class level up to intelligence bonus
plus one of these in order every even level
take 10 on defensive casting
1/day quicken one spell
ignore spell fail of light armor(including those with special properties or materials that are considered light)
bonus attack at highest bounus(-2penalty to all hits for round)
spellsword=+1 caster level every even level best BaB d8 hit die
ignore spell fail every odd level starts at 10%+5% every increase
at 2nd level bonus fighter or metamagic feat
at 4th level channel spell starts at 3/day goes up by one at levels 6 and 8 puts spell in sword next attack triggers it
at 10th level multiple channel spell puts 2 spells in weapon uses 2 of his channel spells uses

Inquisitor Tremayne
07-25-2007, 05:53 PM
I am fairly certain our GM wouldn't allow any "new" classes in his games, only those from the PHB. However he will allow some races and almost all PrCs.

So Duskblade is out.

I'm checking out Spellsword and Bladesinger now. *edit* I can access them, so no I'm not checking them out.

Karui_Kage
07-25-2007, 06:02 PM
But it *is* the PHB....2 :)

I think every DM should make use of this book, along with Tome of Battle, and add them into their new "Core" setup. They're both great resources, with nothing overly powerful or underbalanced in either. And the variants from the PHB2 are great.

starfalconkd
07-25-2007, 08:57 PM
No spellcasting whatsoever, and the abilities are sub-par.

I always thought having a +1 bow with a bunch of powers and still getting your +5 to attack and damage was kind of awesome.

Karui_Kage
07-25-2007, 09:16 PM
Well, it would be only one or the other. Enhancement bonuses with a bow and ammunition don't stack like that.

So yeah, in the sense that you get free +5 arrows, it's nice. It's generally considered an underpowered class though, as the abilities it gains can be replaced by any number of magic items. Sure, you don't have to pay for them, but when any character can replicate nearly all your class abilities with extra cash, it takes a lot of the uniqueness and power away from it. The +5 arrows can be replaced by enhancement bonuses, the arrow of death can be bought, the firing an arrow at every target within range is alright, but it's to a max of 10 targets and only 1/day. With a single arrow, even a +5 mighty +4 one, that's a max of 17 damage to each person. Not that great. Phase Arrow can be replaced by Improved Precise Shot, to an extent, and Seeker Arrow is only so useful, considering a character gives up a lot of casting to take Arcane Archer, and so can only place low level effects on the arrow.

It's only a class that's good for flavor, in my opinion, and even then it's sub par. The fact that nearly any character can duplicate the majority of its effects with cash makes it a poor class, in my opinion.

starfalconkd
07-25-2007, 11:11 PM
Many class abilities can be copied. My point was you can carry around a +1 Bane (whatever) Distance Holy Seeking Speed Thundering Mighty Composite Longbow and whatever metal type of arrows you like and you get +5 attack and damage due to your class ability instead of your bows +1. The other powers are fun too. Especially using Imbue Arrow with scrolls. Add that to the fact that you get good attack bonus, 4+int skills, D8 HD, and two good saves. It's a good class for more than flavor. It's only underpowered if you aren't creative about using it and you compare it to certain overpowered classes.
Ranger 9/ Sorcerer (or Wizard) 1/ Arcane Archer 10 could do some serious damage. Especially with Rapid Shot and Improved Rapid Shot, he'd get six attacks per round with the above bow (or even a toned down bow and haste) at (assuming weapon focus and 26 Dex) +33/+33/+33/+28/+23/+18 and deal (assuming 18 Str) 1d8+9 per hit, and four of those are almost guaranteed hits. With Improved Critical he'll probably crit once too which is triple damage plus 2d8 sonic. If his opponent is the bane type of his bow and/or his favored enemy and/or evil the damage skyrockets. If his opponent is all three they are pretty much dead.
And with a quiver of Ehlonna he basically never runs out of arrows.
For someone else to do this they either have to cast Magic weapon with a high enough caster level every time they wish to use 50 of their arrows or pay about 1000gp per arrow.

Karui_Kage
07-25-2007, 11:22 PM
"For someone else to do this they either have to cast Magic weapon with a high enough caster level every time they wish to use 50 of their arrows or pay about 1000gp per arrow."

Or they can just get a +5 etc. etc. bow (total +10), like your example did. :) I know, the other one has a few more options to it. And I agree, a lot of class abilities can be copied with items. But this one only has one that really *can't* be copied, and that one is pretty low on the useful scale because the character won't have many great spells to use it with.

All in all, I like classes that give things no other class really does. Even if 50% of the abilities can be mimiced with items, when 90% of the Arcane Archer's can, it writes it off as a good prestige class for me.

That's just, of course, my opinion. :) The OP is entitled to play whatever he feels like. I'd just recommend against the arcane archer. ;)

Inquisitor Tremayne
07-26-2007, 07:30 AM
Help me build my character. Any suggestions you want to add be my guest. I like have a community built character!

I'm going to go straight Ranger 10/Wizard 10. There are enough options in the Ranger class to keep me in it and not take a PrC likewise with the Wizard class.

She will start at 8th level, so Ranger 4/Wizard 4.

Here are the stats I rolled for a female elf:

Str 14
Dex 17
Con 12
Int 16
Wis 14
Cha 10

Selected archery for combat style. Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Spell Focus (evocation).

With 27,000 gold I have picked the following equipment:
+1 Shock composite longbow (Str +2)
Quiver of Ehlonna
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
+1 mithral chain shirt
+1 longsword
Gloves of Dexterity +2
Cloak of resistance +1
Ring of sustenance (my new favorite magic item)
potion of Cure Moderate x4
standard gear
60 arrows

Pretty standard combat focused gear. Any alternate suggestions? How about spell selection? Especially 2nd level spells.

Thanks

Ed Zachary
07-26-2007, 08:02 AM
How about spell selection? Especially 2nd level spells.

Alter Self and some of the six ability improvement spells. They are all Transmutation, so consider specializing in that school.

Argent
07-26-2007, 08:20 AM
I'd second the suggestion for Transmutation specialization. It fits best with the Ranger, and if your DM allows/encourages it, you can add bestial traits to your spell descriptions. For instance, when you cast Bear's Endurance you actually look a little like a bear (hairier, facial feature change). No in-game effect other than to add some flavour to your particular spell-casting.

Out of curiosity, why wizard and not sorcerer? Personal preference, or is there an in-game reason?

Inquisitor Tremayne
07-26-2007, 08:29 AM
Just personal preference really.

The sorcerer just never really fit with my view of a spellcaster. I think arcane spellcaster I think wizard.

Wait a second! They can cast any spell they know up to the max number of spells they know for that level right? Hmmm... I TOTALLY forgot about THAT little gem of a feature...

Moritz
07-26-2007, 09:12 AM
Yeah, if you're good, you can cast 15 or more fireballs in one day.

Ed Zachary
07-26-2007, 09:56 AM
Just personal preference really. The sorcerer just never really fit with my view of a spellcaster. I think arcane spellcaster I think wizard. Wait a second! They can cast any spell they know up to the max number of spells they know for that level right? Hmmm... I TOTALLY forgot about THAT little gem of a feature...

A wizard spends alot of time studying, which is not rangerish. A sorcerer just gets his spells based on charisma. As a sorcerer you won't need a spellbook or spell preparation time.

If you go sorcerer (switch your INT and CHA), you'll lose some skills and languages, and the irrelevant feat to scribe scrolls. But more skills use CHA than INT, so you'll get better bonuses.

The problem with sorcerers is that they know very few spells. At fourth level you can only know one second level spell.


Yeah, if you're good, you can cast 15 or more fireballs in one day.

This isn't far from the truth.

Inquisitor Tremayne
07-26-2007, 10:04 AM
The problem with sorcerers is that they know very few spells. At fourth level you can only know one second level spell.

Even with a high Cha score? The bonus spells from having a high ability score doesn't affect how many spells you can know?

Inquisitor Tremayne
07-26-2007, 10:05 AM
And I am going to switch to Sorcerer anyway.

I like having a familiar AND an animal companion!

Karui_Kage
07-26-2007, 10:40 AM
A high charisma would effect your spells per day, not spells known.

Inquisitor Tremayne
07-26-2007, 10:46 AM
That blows. But I've never been keen on the amount of spells casters (divine and arcane) get.

But I understand that its a balance thing cause spells are freakin powerful.

Ed Zachary
07-26-2007, 10:56 AM
Even with a high Cha score? The bonus spells from having a high ability score doesn't affect how many spells you can know?

Correct, but it will give you more of that one spell you know to cast each day. You may want to start with Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance or Cat's Grace... as they will only last a minute per level.

True Strike is a good first level spell for a fighting sorcerer. Also consider Expeditious Retreat (not just for retreat), Mage Armor and Mount.

Inquisitor Tremayne
07-26-2007, 11:15 AM
Correct, but it will give you more of that one spell you know to cast each day. You may want to start with Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance or Cat's Grace... as they will only last a minute per level.

True Strike is a good first level spell for a fighting sorcerer. Also consider Expeditious Retreat (not just for retreat), Mage Armor and Mount.

True that!

I'm gonna have to read up on Expeditious Retreat!

Thanks!

Karui_Kage
07-26-2007, 11:27 AM
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=893451

Try that. It's all about making a good archer, and the good and bad sides of the Arcane Archer. :)

Vimachipal
07-26-2007, 12:27 PM
Have you considered being a Beguiler?

It's intelligence based, you cast spells like a sorcerer, and you know all the spells on the list.

Inquisitor Tremayne
07-26-2007, 12:38 PM
Have you considered being a Beguiler?

It's intelligence based, you cast spells like a sorcerer, and you know all the spells on the list.

What book is it in?

Our Gm, so far, has been easy going on playing things outside of the core books or the complete books. Just as long as he doesn't deem anything unbalancing.

Karui_Kage
07-26-2007, 12:42 PM
The Beguiler is in the PHB2.

Inquisitor Tremayne
07-26-2007, 01:18 PM
I guess I'll have to break down and get that book!

Karui_Kage
07-26-2007, 01:31 PM
Yes you do. Heck, your entire wizard/ranger problem could be solved just by looking at (and using) the Duskblade. Great mix there. Your DM may think it seems powerful, and really, it is, but only at early levels. Like the Warlock, it falters before true spellcasters in the later levels.

starfalconkd
07-26-2007, 06:27 PM
I would really recommend against ranger 10/ wizard 10. Either go Ranger 11/ Wizard 9, Ranger 9/ Wizard 11, or Ranger 4/ Wizard 16. At least if you aren't going to use any classes but those two.

Karui_Kage
07-26-2007, 06:33 PM
I think you mean Wizard 17 on that last one, when they get their 9th level spells. But yeah, you pretty much want to make sure to end your wizard levels on an Odd level for a new ranking of spells, unless you just enjoy having a couple extra spell slots.

starfalconkd
07-26-2007, 08:44 PM
I think you mean Wizard 17 on that last one, when they get their 9th level spells. But yeah, you pretty much want to make sure to end your wizard levels on an Odd level for a new ranking of spells, unless you just enjoy having a couple extra spell slots.

Actually, I only said 4/16 because he said he was starting at 4/4.

Karui_Kage
07-26-2007, 11:20 PM
Ah. Point taken. I might actually recommend 5/15 then. It's never too much of a benefit to end on an even caster level. And with level 5 as a Ranger, he can take a second favored enemy.

Inquisitor Tremayne
07-27-2007, 09:30 AM
Thanks for all of the advice!

I'll pick up the PHB II next week and go from there.

starfalconkd
07-27-2007, 03:53 PM
Ah. Point taken. I might actually recommend 5/15 then. It's never too much of a benefit to end on an even caster level. And with level 5 as a Ranger, he can take a second favored enemy.

In general you are right, but what if they go to 21st? If he is 16th level caster he can then take 17th. Also, at 4/16 he would have caster level 20 with practiced caster (wizard).

Karui_Kage
07-27-2007, 04:45 PM
If they go to 21st, then I'd agree with you. In general though, I always dispense my advice on the assumption that the highest level will be 20th, as those DMs that choose to use epic seem to be in the minority.