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DMMike
01-20-2014, 08:16 PM
Should PCs be able to take 10 at any time? It's a pretty crummy result, since the average result on a d20 is 10.5. But taking 10 means you don't get one of the crummier single-digit rolls. Now, taking 10 at all times can mean some auto-successes for PCs, but if all they need is a 10 or higher to succeed, what's the harm in an auto-success?

nijineko
01-20-2014, 09:54 PM
taking 10 takes more time. potentially dangerous, depending on who or what is around, or what deadlines might exist.

cplmac
01-21-2014, 08:31 AM
So then there would be no chance of rolling a 1 and having an epic fail happen?

nijineko
01-21-2014, 09:35 AM
The point of the "take 10" and "take 20" actions is that you take extra care and time to make sure you do it right. While in real life, even being careful one might mess something up on rare occasion, but technically according to the rules, you don't roll, so a "natural 1" (or a "natural 20") result is impossible. Your skill bonus still applies, so even a second level character with max ranks in the skill "taking 10" will always hit a DC15. A few skills do not allow "taking 10" or "taking 20". If I recall correctly, the "taking 10" takes one minute, while "taking 20" takes ten minutes to accomplish. "Taking 20" precludes a "natural 20" as 'naturals' can only happen on a die roll.

Do note that the players still don't know the DC of the action they are attempting, so they won't know for sure that it will succeed or not. If the DC of the check was 16, the aforementioned theoretical second level character would still fail the skill check when "taking 10".

^^

DMMike
01-23-2014, 09:41 AM
@cplmac: taking 10 does eliminate the epic fail. On the flip side, it eliminates the epic success. That's tied in to a major result of always allowing take 10s: you eliminate the broad-swingyness (sorry) of a d20. A more technical variant might be always allowing an 8+1d4.

@nijineko: I realize how take 10 works in normal d20 rules. I'm suggesting an alternative use. I'm saying, let's get rid of this "it takes you a minute" nonsense, and change it to "if you'll accept a mediocre roll, you'll guarantee that you don't get a bad roll."

Now, this is already implied in several areas of the game. Spell DCs are simply Cast Spell checks in which the caster takes 10. Armor Class is like the defender taking 10 on a defense roll (Unearthed Arcana variant?).

In fact on a personal note, nijineko, I have much respect for your opinions (as well as several other members on this site). I've already applied the always-take-10 rule to my homebrew RPG, on which I'd love your opinion. It's posted in the General RPGs section under Modos Playtest. This post is to get opinions on porting that same rule to the grand-daddy of RPGs.

nijineko
01-23-2014, 12:41 PM
heh, i actually found myself going the other way. using the UA variant rule we roll all 10s instead of using the default static 10. also, knowing that you get to do something when it is not your turn, helps keep everyone's hand in the round during combat. i'm actually working on adapting AoOs to expand into an off-turn set of options, so that there are things you can meaningfully do even when it isn't your turn.

though, it's important to recall that i'm a person that enjoys meaningful complexity. in the current fad of rules-lite systems, my opinions aren't very popular. while i can enjoy a fast tightly built minimal rules game that allows for strategy and tactics, when it comes to designing a game... i keep hearing the old chess adage in my head: "most people who play chess get rid of the pieces until the game is reduced to a level of simplicity that they can finally comprehend and actually play". which is not an insult, but simply pointing out the fact that most people can't handle complex games, and even among those that are capable, many don't find great enjoyment out of it for various valid reasons.

since i am one such person, i tend to view rules-lite games as candy, pastries, creamy fluffy things that you eat for desert to relax, after the real meat and potatoes of a fantastically involved and complex game have digested. to me, they are idle past-times, something to enjoy with a friend for an hour, but not something you play seriously. again, not that serious gaming can't be had with such systems... it is simply that i don't personally derive enjoyment from using such systems. for me, it is not just the rp (which, truth be told can be had any time of any day with or without a game system - just randomly ask someone to tell you what they are really thinking... lol ) but also the clever and unexpected usage of rules which when combined together with rp, provide maximum enjoyment for me and my ilk.

i know, i'm weird. ^^ and thank you for your kind regard to my unpopular opinions.


ps: i'm the sort of gm, that when one of my d&d players found a way to put a 16th level monks damage output into the 60-90d8+ per strike range, i cheered them on, and even offered suggestions on how to further maximize it. and i thoroughly enjoyed when the player who actually got that character used that self same character's damage output to literally punch their way through a wall to roust out a villain who had melded with the stone in an effort to hide/escape from the party, and then also completely defeated my prepared companion encounter ambush before it could even become more than a warning. it was awesome, grand, and glorious. a year or so later, i decided to remind the character's player that massive damage isn't the solution to everything, and used a 3rd or 4th level spell based variant to give them said gentle reminder. they were quite humbled. it was also quite amusing.

DMMike
01-23-2014, 09:33 PM
heh, i actually found myself going the other way. using the UA variant rule we roll all 10s instead of using the default static 10. also, knowing that you get to do something when it is not your turn, helps keep everyone's hand in the round during combat. i'm actually working on adapting AoOs to expand into an off-turn set of options, so that there are things you can meaningfully do even when it isn't your turn.

Meaning...you roll 2d10 instead of 1d20? The "hand in the round" comment is exactly why I started implementing defense rolls.

I guess you could roll taking 10 into something along with the Escalation Die. In the first round, characters still have their wits about them, so they can take 10 instead of rolling d20. In the second round (or escalation point), things are a little more chaotic, so characters can no longer take 10, but they can take 8+1d4. In the third round, you guessed it, things are a little more chaotic, so your non-d20 option becomes a 7+1d6. And so on.

Off topic:
The game I've -ahem- sought your opinion on already includes off-turn acting options, and does so in a way that doesn't require the addition of AoOs to the rules. You're free to steal rules as desired.

nijineko
01-24-2014, 05:10 PM
ah, not quite. if you read the UA alt rule, you replace the static 10s with a d20, sorry for my ambiguous phraseology.

thank you, however, as d&d already has AoO rules, I don't need to add anything, just tweak a few things.

downloaded... however, it may be a while before i can read it for analysis and response. i have some tests i'm supposed to be studying for right now, sigh.