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Andrew Collas
08-18-2012, 07:20 PM
So I was reading it and it says;

You can use your Power over an area; to target more than one
Villain or, as a defence to protect nearby allies. Each 1D is one
extra individual (or group of mooks) affected by the Power.

Then I looked at Split Attack and I thought "Why would anyone ever take Split Attack, since for the 1D in Area Effect they get the same thing, without the split dice?"

So in that moment I turn to you all, what do you think? Can you explain the difference for me? Thanks!

Dustland
08-18-2012, 07:36 PM
AoE allows you to attack multiple targets but not the same target multiple times. (Just fyi I use this to model explosion style attacks exclusively)

SA allows you to do either (which I tend to use for automatic fire/speed attacks; you're attacking alot but wildly). But splitting your dice sucks! Unless you're thinking tactically...You take a character with Shooting 3d (SA 2d), have them unload all three attacks into the Big Bad Guy, each attack being 1d. Not a chance of hurting him, right?

Well, his teammate with the Big Guns 5d Special Attack who held his action until the end of the round can now throw down a thrubbing and with any luck, the BBG has used his better defenses dodging his buddy's initial volley!

Hope that helps!

Andrew Collas
08-18-2012, 08:53 PM
Well not really, since again it doesn't explain why anyone would waste time on Split Attack, other than to get a second attack on the same target, right?

AND... split attack requires another roll. AND... you have less dice on it... so I am a bit confused I guess.

For me I see Area Attack not as tactical but for example, Dragonfly zipping around a bunch of bad guys blasting them, or a martial artist chopping and kicking her way through a crowd of Ninjas, etc...

I guess for me, not having actual rules for areas, defeats the idea of an area attack.

One way to look at it is how BASH does it to some degree... Area attack affects an Area of space and everyone within that space needs to make a Reaction to get out of the way or avoid damage.

For every 1D you take in Area you get 10'x10' of effect. Or some such.

Dustland
08-18-2012, 10:07 PM
Tagging on defined areas for each die spent on AoE is perfectly reasonable, just not necessary. I haven't run into a situation where players argued or got confused about what they could or couldn't hit with their AoE attack, but I guess it could happen.


Well not really, since again it doesn't explain why anyone would waste time on Split Attack, other than to get a second attack on the same target, right?
Well, yep, the second (or third, or fourth) attack is reason enough. Number of attacks is a powerful force in Supers, sometimes more powerful than a single big dice pool roll. I don't really know how else to explain it.

To me, if I'm having to start adding in ranges, fixed areas that are effected, etc, I go back to BASH. I just found those parameters weren't necessary for me to enjoy a well-narrated game.

Andrew Collas
08-18-2012, 10:30 PM
Tagging on defined areas for each die spent on AoE is perfectly reasonable, just not necessary. I haven't run into a situation where players argued or got confused about what they could or couldn't hit with their AoE attack, but I guess it could happen.

Go gentle Hoss, still getting into the "Supers! Mindset" ;)


Well, yep, the second (or third, or fourth) attack is reason enough. Number of attacks is a powerful force in Supers, sometimes more powerful than a single big dice pool roll. I don't really know how else to explain it.

No that does perfectly, nice work on that one. I can now see the benefit.


To me, if I'm having to start adding in ranges, fixed areas that are effected, etc, I go back to BASH. I just found those parameters weren't necessary for me to enjoy a well-narrated game.

I am going to disagree on that one right out of the gate. Adding ranges (as abstract as say Marvel SAGA with the point blank, attack and firing distance) or by hex/square does not, to my mind, make Supers! less narrative. Some players like having minis, it is in their nature. BASH, an excellent game that I supported quite vocally a couple years back, was too much about number crunching and strict rules for me hence why I was looking for something else.

Supers! hits that spot for me easily, though I MIGHT like to add some mapping to it, like Grubman did, just to see how it plays as such.

And that is what I love most about the game, the flexibility :)

Dragonfly
08-19-2012, 01:37 AM
Howdy Andrew,

As you can imagine, the issue of Area Effect has come up before. I can certainly see why some might want to define areas more precisely, but I agree that doing so limits the narrative aspects of the game. Here is a slightly tweaked version of a post that I made in response to these same questions when they were last discussed on these boards. I hope it will at least prove interesting.
__________________________________________________ ______________________________________________

Area Effect uses targets, not specific areas, to determine its in-game effect. This means that the actual area affected by Area Effect is somewhat imprecise and subject to narrative circumstances.

Example 1) Suzie Shield has the power Control Energy (Force) 5D [Boost: Area Effect 3D]. She and the rest of the Fabulous Four (Rock-a-Billy, Hotrod, and Flex), along with their ultra-powerful ally (Starlord) come face to face with their arch-enemy, Doctor Dread. Dread launches a mega-bomb at the heroes, who at this point are all standing adjacent to each other. Suzie can only protect four targets with her power. Knowing that Starlord can survive the mega-bomb with relative ease, she decides to cast a force field around herself and her teammates. In this case, the maximum area covered by her power is no more than about 20 square feet.

Example 2) The Fabulous Four and agents of the UN-sponsored super-agency UNICORN are defending the city from a Sklaar invasion. They are running down a city street, en-route to a Sklaar landing site, when they are surprised by a 100’ tall Sklaar Devastator Drone that rounds the intersection in front of them. The drone launches an attack that befits its designation at the skyscrapers flanking the heroes and their UNICORN support team, bringing large chunks of menacing debris down on top of them. Suzie trusts that the Fabulous Four can survive this hazard by dint of their own powers, so she decides to shield herself and as many of the UNICORN agents as possible. The Game Master decides that there are twenty-four agents with the heroes, divided into four squads of six each. Each squad counts as a Rating 6 mook. This means that Suzie can use her powers to protect herself and 18 UNICORN agents. In this case, the maximum area covered by her power is more like 80 square feet.

Example 3) Starlord arrives on Earth in time to help the Fabulous Four and their allies fend off the Sklaar invasion. Scouting the city, he finds his friends crawling out of the debris left by two fallen skyscrapers. He also sees three Sklaar Devastator Drones closing in for the kill. Starlord uses his power, Energy Control (Cosmic) 8D [Boost: Area Effect 1D], to engulf two of the Devastator Drones in a ball of cosmic energy. Taking into account the size of the Devastator Drones, the maximum area covered by Starlord’s power in this case is approximately 50 square feet.

Example 4) After rescuing the Fabulous Four and their allies, Starlord takes the battle into space, engaging the Sklaar armada. There he finds the Sklaar command ship, flanked by ten smaller warships. The Game Master rules that the command ship is a 40D opponent. The ten Sklaar warships, however, count as Rating 9 mooks. Starlord opens the battle, generating a cosmic explosion between two of the lesser Sklaar warships, engulfing them both. In this case, the maximum area affected by his Energy Control (Cosmic) is measured in hundreds of feet (if you consider the size of the warships) and many miles (if you consider the distances between the ships in space).

Some people might be frustrated by the less-than-precise nature of how the Area Boost works. I, on the other hand, consider it to be sheer genius, as it allows for the kind of narrative flexibility (one might even say inconsistency) that you see in the comics.
__________________________________________________ ________________________________________________

Well, that's that (again). I hope it helps.

Best,

Dragonfly

Andrew Collas
08-19-2012, 10:17 AM
I need to mull this over, because I see what you are doing on the one hand, but on the other hand my crazy-need-for-hexes-brain is rejecting the idea like a baboon heart... mull I must.

Dustland
08-19-2012, 10:39 AM
You actually brought up an interesting point Andrew that I failed to see initially.

For me I see Area Attack not as tactical but for example, Dragonfly zipping around a bunch of bad guys blasting them, or a martial artist chopping and kicking her way through a crowd of Ninjas, etc...
I don't know why, and I may be alone in this, but to me those are examples of SA not AoE. Here's my thought process (and I'm probably putting too much thought into this :)):

Split Attack: You are simulating attacking quickly, dividing your attention (and sometimes power) among different targets (or getting off numerous attacks against one target). Each attack requires the person to target, aim, and attack each time. Your examples (to me) fall into this catagory. I know, attacking Mooks is a different issue.

Area of Effect: You are lobbing a single attack that due to its size may affect multiple targets. When the mage is firing a fireball into a room, he isn't taking the time to target each individual but rather he's attacking once against a fixed point (maybe targeting a specific opponent) and the blast is soley responsible for hitting everything in the room.

Here's an example using a single super, Gambit: He can charge up an object to cause it to explode. This is an AoE attack. He is also stupid quick so he can throw multiple objects in a round, making it a SA attack. And when he charges up a deck of cards and gets three exploding attacks in a round? That's AoE + SA, ouch!

Also please never take any of my comments personally; if we disagree on how an intentionally vague rule should work, it's just a pair of opinions, nothing more :)

Andrew Collas
08-19-2012, 11:53 AM
I think my issue is this, Area implies a space of effect, not individuals. This is where the learning bump is hardest for me... what Supers! Area effect reminds me of is the "Everyone In The Area" from FASERIP, where you are effecting multiple targets in a specific space, but not ALL the targets within.

I will learn, and no Dust nothing personal taken, hence my liberal use of winkies :D

Dragonfly
08-19-2012, 12:49 PM
Hey Andrew,

Trust me, I had the same issues you have back when I started with SUPERS!, so I understand. I come from 20+ years of playing Champions, 10 years of playing M&M, and currently play BASH! (as well as SUPERS!). Those other three games trained me to worry about hexes and the individuals in those hexes. SUPERS! requires (or at least encourages) a different way of thinking.

In my example above, Starlord obviously affected hundreds of targets, as those two warships had crews. The crews, however, were of no consequence to the combat. They are just window dressing, so who cares if they go down with the ship. I can give that to Starlord. His player feels good for doing something cool and dramatic, and nobody has to worry about cosmic level adders to powers and all sorts of other niggly rules that potentially get in the way of the story-telling.

It would get more complicated, I suppose, if there were supervillains (or other non-mook, non-window-dressing) characters on those warships. I'm grateful, however, that SUPERS! gives me, as Judge, the freedom to handle that as I will. Maybe I rule that Starlord's blast incapacitated the ships, but left them intact, so none of the major characters took damage, per se? Maybe I rule that the ships exploded, and expose the characters within to a single attack that they must resist? Maybe I say that the ships are damaged and will explode in a few rounds, so I expose the characters within to a Hazard that they must overcome as they try to make it off the ship? I'd much rather have the freedom to adjudicate that as I will, than have the game try to "help" me by quantifying range, area, etc.

It took me some time to get used to this style of play, but now there is no going back for me. :-)

Cheers!

Dragonfly

Andrew Collas
08-20-2012, 12:52 PM
I swear I really want you to run me through a game Dragonfly, you sell this system so well!

AslanC
08-20-2012, 04:15 PM
Just subscribing to my threads.

Also Dragonfly I REALLY want you to write for me... your ability to describe rules concepts is par excellence!