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Dragonfly
04-03-2012, 10:31 PM
Hey folks,

I've asked this before, but never gotten much feedback. I'm wondering if things will be different now that we have an active dialogue going.

How would you guys handle a character who has a power with variable special effects? Say, a character who controls four elements (fire, wind, air, water), or a character who has a gun that fires all sorts of special rounds (acid pellets, electrical stun arrows, incindiary rounds, etc.)?

I guess you can buy each element seperately. That's definitely an option, but it seems somewhat pricey and doesn't necessarily match all concepts.

When I designed my super-archer, I just gave him Super Weaponry and the I Brought This Along Advantage figuring that would cover it.

I also designed the following Boost in an attempt to provide a solution:

Extra Energy or Element: This boost can be added to Elemental Control, Elemental Form, Energy Control, or Energy Form. Each 1D allows a character to control or manifest an additional element or energy form with the power it enhances. Although this boost increases the versatility of the power its attached to, said power still counts as a single power for purposes of how (or how often) it may be used in a combat round.

Example: Fire and Ice is a super-villain with temperature control powers. The GM considers building the character with the power Elemental Control 5d (Fire and Ice) [Boost: Extra Element 1d] for a total cost of 6d. This would allow Fire and Ice to hurl both ice bolts and fire bolts, or to create ice walls and fire walls. This gives him a bit of added flexibility. When facing Ice Maiden, he can opt to exploit her obvious weakness to fire. In a fight against Kid Chameleon, however, he might opt for a cold attack in an attempt to slow down his cold-blooded foe. As a single power, however, Fire and Ice's Elemental Control can only be used once per combat round, either to attack or resist. That being the case, the GM decides to build Fire and Ice with two separate powers: Elemental Control 5d (Fire) and Elemental Control 5d (Ice) for a total cost of 10d. This gives Fire and Ice all of the versatility of the other build, but it allows him to attack with one element while simultaneously resisting with the other. You get what you pay for!

Another simpler solution might simply be to have a Boost called Variable, which allows one to vary effects along a full spectrum off effects for a mere 1d. Indeed, that's how BASH UE handles it. To some degree, this makes sense. Although they can be used to exploit specific weaknesses and vulnerabilities, variable effects are usually more cosmetic than anything else.

I'm not sold on any of my solutions, and would love some feedback.

What say you?

Best,

Dragonfly

novaexpress
04-04-2012, 08:57 AM
Hum. Big question.
I'am inclined to treat it the way Bash does it.
With a "Variable" boost. First, as you said, sometimes, the changing effects are purely cosmectic. And second, the way the damage system works in Supers fits better the way Variable option is used in Bash. Either you shoot explosive arrows or piercing ones, the damage is unmodified in Supers. Therefore, something like Super Weaponry (special bow) 4D [Boost: Variable - various arrows 1D] could do the trick, I guess. Maybe, in the case of explosive arrows, you would have to add an Area boost, but I don't know how to do it. Would it be a boost inside another boost?

Simon W
04-04-2012, 09:28 AM
Would it be a boost inside another boost?

Kinda like a "Super-Boost"? That would take some thinking about but could work.

Dragonfly
04-04-2012, 05:36 PM
Hey guys,

Thanks for the input, novaexpress. I think you're right about going with a BASHesque approach. It's just simpler. That's what I'm gonna go with.

As for the question of how to model explosive arrows, I don't think you need a Boost within a Boost. I've always treated Boosts as an aspect of a power that you can opt to use or not. If that's the case, you can just do this:

Super Weaponry 6D (Weapon Type: High Tech Bow and Arrows, Boost: Area 2D, Boost: Split Attack 2D, Boost: Variable Effect, Complication: Device)

The total cost is 10D. The archer can choose to fire three 2D arrows, two 3d arrows, one 6d arrow, three 2D explosions, two 3d explosions, or one 6d exlopsion. The special effect of the various arrowheads can be any special effect he wants.

I think it's nice, simple, and it works. Any thoughts?

Cheers!

Dragonfly

novaexpress
04-04-2012, 06:33 PM
Yes, Dragonfly. I think it could work that way.
And the final cost of the power depends on the different kind of arrows the player wants - normal ones, explosive ones (area boost), net ones (webs boosts), flashbang ones (paralysis boost), etc.
The more he has some special effects, the more it'll cost in dice. Meaning than for a starting average character, it could be his only power.

Dragonfly
04-06-2012, 12:00 PM
Hey novaexpress,

Yeah, that's how I see it. Although I should point out that the power written above only covers damaging arrows. The Variable Boost shouldn't give Longshot the super-archer the ability to vary the core power (super weaponry) - just the descriptor (heat, cold, sonic). If he wants all those other powers you mention, he'd have to buy them separately.

Here's how he might look:

Longshot (Resistances 5D + Aptitudes 3D + Powers 14D + Aptitudes 1D = 23D)

Resistances: Composure 2D, Fortitude 2D, Reaction 3D, Will 2D

Aptitudes: Shooting 4D (Bows)

Powers: Super Weaponry 4D (Weapon Type: Damage Arrows, Boost: Area 2D, Boost: Armor Piercing 1D, Boost: Split Attack 1D, Boost: Variable Effect 1D, Complication: Device), Webs 4D (Weapon Type: Capture Arrows, Boost: Area 1D, Boost: Split Attack 1D, Boost: Variable Effect 1D, Complication: Device)

Ads/Disads: I Brought This Along

One option, of course, would be to drop the Webs power, and just use I Brought This Along for an occasional specialty arrow. That would be far more restricted, but it would bring his cost below 20D and allow him to spend some dice on Aptitudes, etc.

Cheers!

Dragonfly

Dustland
04-06-2012, 05:45 PM
I think the 1D cost is either just right or way underpriced, depending on how your narrator has set up the game.

1) If the Narrator doesn't make frequent use of Vulnerability, then 1D is fine.

2) If the Narrator uses Vulnerabilities to help flesh out the campaign (something I want to incorporate into a homebrew one day), then being able to pick and choose damage types until you find the appropriate Vulnerability then proceed to slaughter everything that's thrown at you, then 1D is awful cheap.

I would guess that most campaigns default to #1 so 1D is probably fine, but I'd put in a blurb mentioning the potential abuse if you ever publish this idea.

Cool beans DF!

honestiago
04-07-2012, 04:36 PM
I think the idea of choosing from a menu of items for each 1d you get actually meshes with the system. This is very similar to what MURPG did with their powers system. You got "specialties" for each point you had in certain powers (Example: Ranged Combat 3 [pistols, shotgun, bow&arrow]). I think listing your variables is a fair and balanced way to deal with variable effects, like energy and elemental control.

The Variable effect would worry me, because, as Dust noted, 1d is incredibly cheap to create an attack that addresses every weakness. And since every Super has a vulnerability, that makes the effect pretty handy. I think you handle that situation with I Brought This Along, and possibly Super Science, where you can designate what's in the dice pool on the spot ["Uh-oh, Ice Mistral is robbing a bank! Good thing I brought my Fire Blast Arrow"). I like this better than "Hey, there's Ice Mistral. I'll just whip out the fire. Oops, here comes Volcano! Good thing I also have Ice Arrows). Better yet:" "Oh, it's Superman. Not to worry. These arrows are tipped with Red Kryptonite [with a little honey on it, to make it go down easier]."

It seems to me that you'd end up solving all the problems you face with a single option off one power (I know some players that would do exactly that. I think that might lead to problems on both ends, player and GM.

Dragonfly
04-07-2012, 09:17 PM
I think the idea of choosing from a menu of items for each 1d you get actually meshes with the system. This is very similar to what MURPG did with their powers system. You got "specialties" for each point you had in certain powers (Example: Ranged Combat 3 [pistols, shotgun, bow&arrow]). I think listing your variables is a fair and balanced way to deal with variable effects, like energy and elemental control.

The Variable effect would worry me, because, as Dust noted, 1d is incredibly cheap to create an attack that addresses every weakness. And since every Super has a vulnerability, that makes the effect pretty handy. I think you handle that situation with I Brought This Along, and possibly Super Science, where you can designate what's in the dice pool on the spot ["Uh-oh, Ice Mistral is robbing a bank! Good thing I brought my Fire Blast Arrow"). I like this better than "Hey, there's Ice Mistral. I'll just whip out the fire. Oops, here comes Volcano! Good thing I also have Ice Arrows). Better yet:" "Oh, it's Superman. Not to worry. These arrows are tipped with Red Kryptonite [with a little honey on it, to make it go down easier]."

It seems to me that you'd end up solving all the problems you face with a single option off one power (I know some players that would do exactly that. I think that might lead to problems on both ends, player and GM.

I hear your points, and I was there at the start of the discussion, but again - novaexpress's argument holds most water for me so far in terms of the cost analysis. Indeed, your suggestion that this can be handled with I Brought This Along suggests that the 1D option is fine (since I Brought This Along is a 1D Advantage).

I DO think the Boost description merits some language warning the GM of potential abuse and driving home what should already be known, which is that the GM is the final aribter of what's possible in the game, including what's possible with Variable. It has to make sense given the character concept. If Longshot the archer has Variable, it's probably okay that he have electrical, glue, net, fire, and sonic arrows. The GM, however, should feel free to rule that he doesn't have access to Kraptonite or Unobtanium arrows, because those materials are too rare. He also wouldn't have access to magic arrows, because he's a tech based archer.

Your examples above are valid, but they assume the worse type of player, which I'd rather not do. They also assume a pushover of a GM, which I'd rather not do either.

As for Variable - not all supers have vulnerabilities. Example: of the 27 characters included in the SUPERS! rulebook, five have vulnerabilities and/or weaknesses, and only 3 of those have ones that would exploitable by Longshot the archer (assuming you have a GM worth his salt, and a half-decent player). In the end, those numbers suggest a relatively limited utility. I think going with more than 1D would be way too much.

Cheers!

Dragonfly

novaexpress
04-07-2012, 10:18 PM
Speaking of "I brought this along", could someone explain to me the 1/2D+1 rule, please?
I'm not sure to understand it rightly.

Simon W
04-08-2012, 05:13 AM
1/2D+1 means it has 1-3+1D in points to create a one-shot gadget for the situation. So you tell the REF - hey look, I'm chained up but I happen to have brought along this little laser-cutter. THe REF says that's ok - so you roll a die getting (say) 4 meaning your laser-cutter has a (4/2)+1=3D laser beam. It can only be used at short range for the purpose of cutting through the chains (and maybe, if the door is locked, cutting through the door lock too - but the REF would have to be quite generous to allow that as well).

novaexpress
04-08-2012, 02:15 PM
Thanks Simon.
It makes more sense now.

honestiago
04-09-2012, 03:29 PM
Fly:

I don't like to assume the worst player either. But you do run into them. And GMs do like to say yes rather than no.

The thing about the variable effect is that you can whip up almost anything. Thus, when facing a brute, you can finagle an attack that exploits a weak area (say their Will or Reactions are low). While this is not a stated vulnerability, it is nevertheless a weakness (this is actually what I was alluding to with Supers -- every character has a weak area of some kind, though not necessarily a kryptonite, as it were). I think creating a swiss army knife makes it a bit too easy to be creative with solutions and/or teamwork, which is at the core of a Supers game. That said, there probably SHOULD be a way for a hero to a Batman-type, or The Mad Thinker, or Kang (one who creates solutions to just about every eventuality). I feel like you can do that with I Brought This Along to an extent (or multiple "I brought this along's"). A variable effect means I can fine tune to just about every circumstance. Still, I wouldn't be against it if the variables were listed on the sheet prior to play. I would probably still price it higher, though.

Dragonfly
04-09-2012, 05:20 PM
Howdy honestiago!


The thing about the variable effect is that you can whip up almost anything. Thus, when facing a brute, you can finagle an attack that exploits a weak area (say their Will or Reactions are low).

Actually, you can't. Variable allows you to vary the special effect of the existing power, NOT the actual power itself, OR the Resistances it affects. You can't, for instance, take a Control Element power and turn it into Webs or Mind Control. In that example, the only thing you CAN do is take a Control Element power, and vary the elements, and even then it should be limited according to concept. In short, unless your foe has a Vulnerability or a Weakness to a particular type of attack, Variable doesn't make your attack any more effective against that foe.

Cheers!

Dragonfly

honestiago
04-12-2012, 07:45 AM
Actually, you can't. Variable allows you to vary the special effect of the existing power, NOT the actual power itself, OR the Resistances it affects. You can't, for instance, take a Control Element power and turn it into Webs or Mind Control. In that example, the only thing you CAN do is take a Control Element power, and vary the elements, and even then it should be limited according to concept. In short, unless your foe has a Vulnerability or a Weakness to a particular type of attack, Variable doesn't make your attack any more effective against that foe.

This is not the way I understood the original proposal. From what I understood, I can take something like elemental control and then vary the type of element I can use. So, if said Brute with low Reaction comes at me, rather than having to blast at him with Fire, I can instead use my variable effect to create an Ice Slick, or perhaps a cloud of toxic gas (air control?). Whether effects or powers, you have to treat things like fire, smoke and ice differently. So the effect really IS the power, for all intents and purposes, and giving me a variety of different effects, especially in conjunction with an elemental power, is essentially the same as giving me multiple powers. But let's say I'm completely wrong on that, and, as you say, only the effect is varied, and the power itself is treated the same way. If that's true, then here's my question -- if the boost really doesn't do anything to vary the power, isn't it really nothing more than a flavor boost? If I throw down an ice slick rather than using my fire blast, and the GM rules that big charging brute can simply Brawn his way through it, rather than having to maintain his balance, then what advantage do I have by varying the effect? I might as well have thrown down a "Circle of Fire" and made him go around that, because my effect isn't forcing any clear advantage to me in this situation. And if it doesn't present me with a clear advantage, how much of a boost is it?

In any case, I want to be clear that I LIKE the idea. I just believe it's more of an advantage than one may think, and should be more expensive. If it's really only a flavor boost, then I guess it's priced about right, and can stand and is.

Dustland
04-12-2012, 06:12 PM
Look at Vulnerability and Weakness Disadvantages. That's when it moves from flavor to too powerful as presented. Once again, it all depends on how the GM builds enemies. If he makes frequent use of these two Disads to define them, then Variable becomes extremely powerful. If not, then it's really just flavor.

honestiago
04-12-2012, 07:15 PM
It is actually IS flavor, then would you have to pay for it? Couldn't you just say you have Ice Control, the then stipulate it is "cold, blue flames of ice?" Just curious about that, as paying for it infers and advantage beyond flavor, and certainly being able to use heat instead/in place of cold would be an advantage sometimes.

Dragonfly
04-12-2012, 07:52 PM
Hey honestiago,

There are two separate questions on the table. The first concerns what sort of damage or effect a power has on a foe. An ice slick and a fire blast, mechanically speaking, work exactly the same way - especially if you are using Energy Control as the attack power (rather than say Webs for one and Energy Control for the other). In both cases, the DEFENDER has control over how any resultant damage is applied. Usually this is applied to Fortitude, Reaction, or Composure. Where the attacks vary is in the narrative, rather than the mechanical, realm. A creative player should be able to come up with good explanations for how Fortitude, Reaction, and Composure damage can all be caused by either a fire bolt or an ice slick. They have to narrate how the damage expresses itself, and that matters, but they really have choice. Neither the ice slide or the fire bolt, however, does MORE damage than the other. At most, the different expressions of the power forces the defender to exercise their imaginations more. That's a win-win for everybody, as far as I'm concerned. The ice slide and the fire bolt only do different amounts of damage (or effect) if the defender has a Weakness or a Vulnerability (causing them to lose actual dice on their Resistance roll).

The second question is: why charge anything for a cosmetic effect? Because I don't think it's JUST a cosmetic effect. It CAN, on occasion, have a dramatic in-combat effect (like when there is a Vulnerability or Weakness in play). I think that merits charging a 1D Boost. I don't, however, believe that it is game-changing enough to merit the type of cost you were suggesting. In short, it matters more than nothing, but less than everything. :-)

Cheers!

Dragonfly

honestiago
04-13-2012, 06:18 PM
I get what you're saying, Fly. However, I should point out that I'm not concerned about where the damage come from. I understand the power's damage potential is unaffected by the power's flavor. What I am more concerned about are the defenses the player may choose based on that same flavor, because I feel the flavor of an attack has a great deal to do with how one defends against it. And while you can justify almost any use of a Power, Aptitude or a Resistance to defend from something, the book does say you have to defend with what "makes sense for the situation" (I looked this up to make sure). I interpret that to mean that I cannot, as the target of an attack always choose the defense I want in every situation, because certain attacks affect certain things. For example, I may have 4d Super Strength, but that won't help me against toxic gas in and of itself. Of course, I can get creative with it, and say I rip out a portion of a wall to fan it away or something. In that case, I'm fine with it, I suppose.

But let's look at something where my choices may be more limited, say, a variable effect in which I choose, say, a Sonic burst over my typical explosion. Such an attack sort of mandates that defenders use Composure or Will to defend, among resistances, at least. I would further offer that damage form such an effect would also damage Composure, regardless of what the power is actually supposed to do, because a sonic screech attacks indirectly. I'd have to consider that as a GM, at least.

So, a variable effect -- which I really like as a part of the game -- really can let me tailor my attacks toward my enemy's weakness in some manner (and when I say weakness I don't mean stated vulnerabilities, but rather areas my enemy may not have built as strongly as others). So, it just seems rather Swiss-Army-Knifish to me, and I worry that maybe it will enforce a dependence on a single power for everything. Regardless of how it actually plays out (and I think only playtesting will really settle the question), this whole discussion has given me a greater appreciation for the modular construction of the game as far as builds and applications. Having to mix and match many different powers to get what I want definitely balances the game out well, so I'll have to think twice when it comes to considering combinations of things.

(I STILL think the "1d for each additional Element-Energy type" is a GREAT idea, though, and do intend to use that one--it has some of the advantages of variable, but is limited to what I actually purchase)..

If you do run Variable, let me know how it plays out. I'd be happy to hear my own fears are unfounded. It's a cool idea. I'm just not sure of the balance issues yet.

Dustland
04-13-2012, 06:43 PM
Hmmm, not sure that I agree with the Sonic Burst example. I get the angle that you're taking and perhaps it has merit, but the example doesn't support your position in my opinion.

A Sonic Burst is a physical attack (in that it is energy passing through the air in the form of a pressure wave) so I think it'd be reasonable for a character to defend with Reflexes if there's obstacles they could leap behind to mitigate the sudden increase in air pressure (or leap behind the attacker if the Sonic attack is omnidirectional). I don't see why you couldn't defend with Fortitude either since it's a physical attack. If you allow someone to roll Fort vs an Electric attack, then rolling Fort vs a Sonic attack is equally (if not more) reasonable.

As long as an attack comes at the character physically, I can't imagine a scenario where Fort, Ref, and Comp aren't all valid defenses.

Not picking on you, I just can't think of how you can force someone to defend with a particular Resistance without getting uber specific on how a particular attack works. Maybe another example would convince me?

---------- Post added at 06:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:42 PM ----------

Meant unidirectional, not omnidirectional...too much time spent around mikes!

Dragonfly
04-13-2012, 08:41 PM
Hey honestiago,

Dustland pretty much said everything I was gonna say. I can certainly see all three Resistances coming into play with the sonic attack example, and I'm far less finicky than you seem to be about insisting that players defend with particular resistances (or what resistance they subtract their damage from). Again, I insist that they apply a narrative explanation, but other than that - anything goes. You sort of prove my point by coming up with a way that Fortitude could defend against the sonic attack.

The reason I don't like the 1D per element type is that a character like Hawkeye, who has tons of different flavor arrows, comes out WAY MORE expensive than he should, and he really doesn't get a proportional in-game benefit for the cost, given the way that I play the game.

I guess I understand your concerns, given that you are far more strict about mandating how characters can defend. That's fair enough. Given that my play style offers more narrative flexibility, however, I'm sticking to my guns on the way that Variable Effect is priced. We'll just have to agree to disagree. I may, however, include some language suggesting options GMs and groups who have different play styles.

Cheers!

Dragonfly

P.S. I have play-tested it, and it works fine - at least for my style of play.

P.P.S. As far as the Super Strength vs. toxic gas - you are missing the obvious defense: a thunderous, Hulk-style hand clap to blow the toxic gas away. :-) [no ripping up materials for fan necessary]

P.P.P.S. Super Strength vs. sonic arrow? I like the Hulk catching the arrow, and suppressing the sonic screech with his clenched fist.

P.P.P.P.S. Hulk vs. sonic arrow #2? Hulk defends with Super Leap, leaping out of the area of effect.

honestiago
04-13-2012, 11:13 PM
Hmmm, not sure that I agree with the Sonic Burst example. I get the angle that you're taking and perhaps it has merit, but the example doesn't support your position in my opinion.

A Sonic Burst is a physical attack (in that it is energy passing through the air in the form of a pressure wave) so I think it'd be reasonable for a character to defend with Reflexes if there's obstacles they could leap behind to mitigate the sudden increase in air pressure (or leap behind the attacker if the Sonic attack is omnidirectional). I don't see why you couldn't defend with Fortitude either since it's a physical attack. If you allow someone to roll Fort vs an Electric attack, then rolling Fort vs a Sonic attack is equally (if not more) reasonable.

As long as an attack comes at the character physically, I can't imagine a scenario where Fort, Ref, and Comp aren't all valid defenses.

Not picking on you, I just can't think of how you can force someone to defend with a particular Resistance without getting uber specific on how a particular attack works. Maybe another example would convince me?

---------- Post added at 06:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:42 PM ----------

Meant unidirectional, not omnidirectional...too much time spent around mikes!

Dust:

The assumption is that the sonic attack is not a the wave, but the sound assaulting the ears. The correct term might have been sub-sonic, since the idea is to incapacitate via the noise. You really can't dodge a sub sonic sound wave. Even so, let's say I DO try to physically resist being overcome by the wave. What type of damage makes sense? If I set off a fire alarm right next to your ear, you might well cover up in time to avoid losing your hearing, but you're going to be flustered. That's Composure. At least I would think it is.

But then, you guys are telling me I can use ANYTHING to defend no matter what (even though the rules say "it must make sense"). I can also take damage from anywhere I want (unless the power says otherwise). The latter is okay with me. As for the former issue (defenses), if this is true, then indeed, the variable effect is not a huge advantage at all. It's no advantage unless there is a vulnerability on the table somewhere.

So now my concern is this--if I can basically defend ANY WAY I WANT AT ANY TIME, there's really no reason why I shouldn't just create one-trick ponies who never have to worry over their weak areas. After all, I am being told I can use Fort to handle obvious attacks against my coordination (ice slick) and Reaction to leap out of the way of a high-pitched sonic attack intended to unsettle me (Composure).

Shoot an arrow at me? Super Strength (seems like Reaction to slap a moving object, but hey, it's my choice right?)

Gas Attack? Super Strength (I'll clap my hands or wave them REALLY HARD)

Goading me with Presence? My Super Strength scoffs at your petty annoyance!

Ice Slick beneath my feet? I'll bust it with my (you guessed it) Super Strength

Is that a ring of fire around me? I'll fan it out with my hand clap that my, yes, Super Strength gives me.

Eye Beams? Super Strength!

Elaborately disguised Trip Mine? I'll detect by beating it up!

Fighting in low gravity? My Super Strength is stronger than physics!

Okay, I'm going off the deep end here, but it really is disconcerting. Maybe I'm interpreting "defend with what makes sense" a different way. Maybe my players always make sense and I never noticed. Maybe I really don't make sense. All I know is, Variable effect is not that big of an advantage, because it doesn't force the defender to play differently at all. Then again, maybe none of them do.:D

Dustland
04-14-2012, 07:03 AM
If I'm creating an attack that attacks the senses directly (so reaction and fortitude should not be able to defend), wouldn't that be something along the lines of a Mental Blast attack? It only damages Composure and Will, cannot be defended by purely physical means, etc...

I actually think most of your examples I would say yes to with proper narrative explainations on the part of the player. Create a pressure wave using Super Strength? Perfectly reasonable to me. Using Super Strength to blow really hard (since presumably your lungs are super strong to-Superman) to put out the flames? Yep. Breaking ice with Super Strength? About as basic as it gets (or leap over the offending ice). Etc. Imagination and flexibility wins!

Presence attack? Well what kind of Presence attack? Did you just try to goad my brick by saying he was a 90lb weakling? Did my brick just throw that car at you? Did you panic and run, giving my brick the satisfaction and ego boost to overcome your silly taunt? Yep.

It all depends on the narrations. I think saying "You can't do x with y EVER" is lacking in imagination. Now if the player can't give me a reasonable excuse for doing something, then doom on him/her.

"But I want to use Super Strength to defend!"
"How?"
"I don't know, but I have lots of dice in it."
"Well when your brain starts to grunt out a thought, I'd give it a listening to."

I think in a game where you can be taunted into submission, it's easy to wade too deeply in the logic pool :)

Dragonfly
04-14-2012, 09:28 AM
Shoot an arrow at me? Super Strength (seems like Reaction to slap a moving object, but hey, it's my choice right?)

Gas Attack? Super Strength (I'll clap my hands or wave them REALLY HARD)

Goading me with Presence? My Super Strength scoffs at your petty annoyance!

Ice Slick beneath my feet? I'll bust it with my (you guessed it) Super Strength

Is that a ring of fire around me? I'll fan it out with my hand clap that my, yes, Super Strength gives me.

Eye Beams? Super Strength!

Elaborately disguised Trip Mine? I'll detect by beating it up!

Fighting in low gravity? My Super Strength is stronger than physics!


By Jove I think you've got it! :D Seriously speaking, although you were trying to be extreme, MOST of your examples are perfectly legit as far as I'm concerned.

The gas attack and ring of fire examples are things the Hulk does ALL the time in the comics - and yes, they ARE a function of his Super Strength. I can TOTALLY see Iceman creating an ice slick in front of the Hulk, only to have the Green Goliath stomp the ground and destroy it along with the rest of the city block. If I were reading a comic and saw that I'd say, "That's so freaking cool!" Goading with the Presence attack? I probably wouldn't allow it (GM's call), unless the player comes up with an explanation that I can't think of right now. However, if a high presence villain tried to intimidate the Hulk with a Presence attack, I might allow the Hulk to resist that with Super Strength. How does it make sene? Well, being the strongest one there is should give you some level of confidence. I'd say that the Hulk could stand there for a round, flex all his muscles in a threat display, roar at the top of his lungs, and thus psyche himself OUT of having to bow on one knee before Doctor Doom. Eyebeams? Rip out a chunck of earth and block the eyebeams with it, or - in truly Superman fashion - catch the eyebeam in your hand and walk into it as you press back your assailant! (THAT'S FREAKING COOL!) The arrow? You're right. Batting it out of the way might be more of a Reaction check. My thing with the sonic arrow in the previous post is that I like the the idea of the Hulk or Superman or someone like them suppressing the sonic waves with the power of their clenched fists. Let's reserve that for sonic grenades, which are easier to catch, and rule that Hulk should probably use his Reaction (or Fortitude, or Armor) to overcome the arrow attack.

You are just being extreme with the fighting in low gravity (even though Super Strength in comics IS depicted as being stronger than physics). Beating up the trip mine is purposefully silly too. It doesn't make any narrative sense.

Those two examples aside, however, I think the rest of the situations you describe actually get at precisely how SUPERS! was meant to be played.

Trust me - I struggled with that at first myself. The narrative nature of the game seemed too slippery and imprecise. I've surrendered myself to it, though, and now I recognize that dimension of it as the game's greatest strength.

Cheers!

Dragonfly

---------- Post added at 08:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:10 AM ----------



"But I want to use Super Strength to defend!"
"How?"
"I don't know, but I have lots of dice in it."
"Well when your brain starts to grunt out a thought, I'd give it a listening to."


Hey Dustland,

I didn't see your post when I replied to honestiago. I see you beat me to just about everything that I wrote in my last post. I wanted to highlight your dialogue above, however, because it gets at the basic demand that the GM should make of every player. Use whatever you want, but explain how it makes sense. Otherwise, it's a no-go.

BTW, honestiago. Keep in mind that the Hulk can only defend with his Super Strength ONCE per round. Also, if he uses it for defense, he can't use it for attack that round. In my experience, this keeps "brick" types from defending with their Super Strength too often, as it's their primary attack. I mention this because you've mentioned one-trick ponies as a problem. In my experience, one trick ponies tend to be very inflexible and even ineffective in combat. Having a few viable defenses (and even attack powers) is usually a good idea.

Cheers!

Dragonfly

honestiago
04-16-2012, 06:57 PM
I swat away your replies using my (wait for it) SUPER F****ING STRENGTH! :-)

On the pricing thing, 1d for Variable might be about right, but it will let a character really swing things his way if he knows the vulnerability of a character. Speaking of vulnerability, what about this from the movie: [Hawkeye is] the only one who can really take down The Hulk with his tranq tip arrows,"

Read more: http://www.worstpreviews.com/headline.php?id=22963#ixzz1sFa02bVE

Thanks, movie Avengers...

Now, I know it's sorta bullshit, but how is this gonna work in the game? Assuming I can variable a tranq arrow right in, and that Hulk can defend with anything to stop it, how can a tranq arrow bring him down? I am assuming this would have to be a special device brought along just for the purposes of bringing down the Hulk? What if a player tries to use the whole "creative narration" thing with variable and whips up a tranq arrow? Assuming it gets to Hulk, then what?

Dustland
04-16-2012, 07:49 PM
My first reaction is that Hawkeye either used "I brought this along" or someone used Super Science to create the tranq arrow and gave it to him. At that point I'd say Paralysis, Webs, Mental Blast (with a limitation that it CAN be resisted physically, it just damages Will or Composure), or my super awesome Lingering Damage power (if it takes a while to bring him down).

Or

Hawkeye has Wizardry, it's renamed and reflavored to Gadgetry, and he uses one of the above powers.

Or

If it's just Hawkeye with Super Weaponry (bow and arrows), then it's just flavor text (unless Hulk has a weakness/vulnerability to tranquilizers) and the fight is resolved as normal (Was it the tranquilizer that caused the Fort/Ref/Comp damage, or the impact of the arrow, or the Hulk stubbing his big toe when he dodged the arrow? Who cares?)

Of course RPGS don't do "this absolutely works every time vs X" very well like you see in movies/comics because that makes for really boring gaming.

Thoughts?

Dragonfly
04-16-2012, 09:43 PM
Hey fellas,

Well, my version of Hawkeye has Super Weaponry (with Variable), Webs (with Variable), and Paralysis (with Variable). The fact that it's a tranq arrow is just flavor text (brought to you by Variable).

That being said, MY Hawkeye CAN'T take down Hulk with ANY of these attacks, nor should he be able to. That scene you describe sounds like movie lameness (even though I'm very much looking forward to the movie). Another possibility is that Hawkeye took down the Hulk after the other Avengers pounded on him. If that's the case, then the tranq arrow might have done a mere 1D of damage to an already weakened Hulk. (That COULD happen with my versions of the characters.)

Besides, maybe there is something about the scene that makes Hulk unable to resist with his Super Strength. I haven't seen it, obviously, so I don't know. There is an old Avengers annual where Hawkeye takes down She-Hulk by tricking her into inhaling the full effect of three of his sleep gas arrows. It was a really neat scene, but it wasn't as simple as hitting her with the attack. The way the scene was set up, it wouldn't have made narrative sense for her to use her Super Strength as a defense.

BTW, honestiago, SPOILER WARNINGS, MAN! I didn't want to know that until May 4th!

Cheers!

Dragonfly