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urbwar
02-22-2012, 02:29 AM
So what do people consider the suggested amount of dice for a character who is considered on the cosmic scale of power level?

novaexpress
02-22-2012, 06:07 AM
I don't intend to play at this power level, but I guess it would mean a big bag of dice.
IMHO, either you allocate a huge number of dice (maybe around 40-50D+ for characters like Silver Surfer, or Galactus) and you use the same system as WEG (meaning just roll 5 dice and then add a bonus equivalent to 3.5 per die above these 5D) if you don't want to see your players throwing too many dice ; or you can use the same system as in The Window (a free game system downloadable on the website) where the powerful characters have the same number of dice than the less powerful, but they have a mark besides the score (in the rules they use an exclamation point) to represent the force of the action.
In Supers, it could be that these characters with the mark could time by 2 their result for instance.

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

Simon W
02-22-2012, 02:26 PM
My favourites are Daredevil, Spiderman, Batman and the Flash. And that was when I was a kid. So I don't really do cosmic level. But Nova's suggestion seems reasonable. I'd be interested to see someone playtest this to see if it turns out ok.

honestiago
02-22-2012, 09:35 PM
If all the characters in the campaign are cosmic level, you simply draw them up as normal, since Cosmic on Cosmic is the same as norm versus norm. Outside that, I think you do have to consider multiples, or flat bonuses (+5, +10, etc.).

urbwar
02-22-2012, 09:43 PM
My favourites are Daredevil, Spiderman, Batman and the Flash. And that was when I was a kid. So I don't really do cosmic level. But Nova's suggestion seems reasonable. I'd be interested to see someone playtest this to see if it turns out ok.

That's kind of why I was asking. I have a cosmic level scenario I wrote for BASH that Chris really wanted me to release, and I'd like to see if it would work for Supers! as well

Dragonfly
02-22-2012, 09:44 PM
Hi urbwar!

I've been thinking about cosmic level characters in SUPERS!, but haven't really run the numbers yet. You've seen my version of Doctor Strange. I imagine my Silver Surfer will come out about as expensive in terms of dice - perhaps a tad less.

The trick with cosmic stuff is the scale, I think, which can (to some degree) be handled by having characters beat Difficulty Target Numbers. Silver Surfer wants to nullify the power of a black hole using his Energy Control (Cosmic) 10d? Roll 10d and try to beat Near Impossible. It gets trickier when trying to do cosmic scale Area attacks because Area exists as a boost, and it doesn't scale cosmically as written, but I still think that the Unopposed resolution system can be used somehow for this.

What do you all think?

Best,

Dragonfly

Dustland
02-22-2012, 09:45 PM
If you wanted to define everything as either "cosmic scale" or "normal scale", I think a simple multiplier would work well. I think they did something similar to this in RIFTS with regards to damage. Then it would depend how far apart you want the cosmic scale to be from the normal scale. x2, x3, x4, higher?

So you could have someone with Cosmic Level Energy Control 2D (fire). Against other being of his scale, his power wouldn't be that impressive (2d6), but against us meer mortals he'd be rolling (2d6)x3 (if you chose x3 as your scale multiplier).

You could also have Cosmic Level Areas of Effect (1d=City, 3d=continent, 5d=planet) or something similar.

urbwar
02-22-2012, 09:46 PM
If all the characters in the campaign are cosmic level, you simply draw them up as normal, since Cosmic on Cosmic is the same as norm versus norm. Outside that, I think you do have to consider multiples, or flat bonuses (+5, +10, etc.).

For the aforementioned scenario, there was a lot of character vs starship battles. I guess I could treat them as mooks though. Something to ponder, as this is actually pretty good advice (though it would still require creating cosmic scale rules to relate to resistances, aptitudes, which likely wouldn't take much work)

honestiago
02-22-2012, 09:57 PM
Rifts used SDC and MDC. If I remember right 1 MDC was something like 100 SDC? (How do I know this? I was the ONLY SDC character in a group full of MDC's; try being a lowly human scholar in the rifts world).

(p.s. I thing MD stood for Mega Damage)

Dragonfly
02-22-2012, 10:38 PM
Rifts used SDC and MDC. If I remember right 1 MDC was something like 100 SDC? (How do I know this? I was the ONLY SDC character in a group full of MDC's; try being a lowly human scholar in the rifts world).

(p.s. I thing MD stood for Mega Damage)

Yep. SDC vs. MDC. I never liked that dynamic. It made regular characters too squishy vs. MDC weapons, some of which could be personal melee and ranged weapons. It worked okay in Robotech, where MDC was mostly reserved to mecha, but not in other genre - at least not IMO.

Personally, I wouldn't want SUPERS! to turn into a game where cosmic level characters use a different mechanic from other folk. If you look at write-ups for characters like the Silver Surfer in the Marvel Superhero Adventure Game (SAGA) or in the Marvel Superhero Adventure Game - his powers operate at approximately the same rank as the Hulk's punch. My write-ups put that at 10d, which is pretty impressive in a game where starting powers can't be ranked higher than 5d. I guess some folks might find rolling 10d cumbersome, but I'm used to playing Champions, so I don't mind. :-)

As far as I'm concerned, the real challenge for modeling cosmic level beings in SUPERS! is not the number of dice they use, but rather things like flight speed, area attacks, etc. I'm thinking that already existing systems can be extended to resolve these issues. Boost: Area, for example, could go something like this:

1d +1 target
2d +2 targets
3d +3 targets
4d +4 targets
5d +5 targets
6d city block
7d city
8d state
9d continent
10d planet
11d solar system

I'm certain that superspeed could be similarly extended to account for faster-than-light speeds.

Just some thoughts.

Best,

Dragonfly

urbwar
02-23-2012, 05:51 AM
Hi urbwar!

I've been thinking about cosmic level characters in SUPERS!, but haven't really run the numbers yet. You've seen my version of Doctor Strange. I imagine my Silver Surfer will come out about as expensive in terms of dice - perhaps a tad less.

The trick with cosmic stuff is the scale, I think, which can (to some degree) be handled by having characters beat Difficulty Target Numbers. Silver Surfer wants to nullify the power of a black hole using his Energy Control (Cosmic) 10d? Roll 10d and try to beat Near Impossible. It gets trickier when trying to do cosmic scale Area attacks because Area exists as a boost, and it doesn't scale cosmically as written, but I still think that the Unopposed resolution system can be used somehow for this.

What do you all think?

Best,

Dragonfly

I think with something as massive as Cosmic Scale, you can simply modify the Area, much like it's done in BASH. Simple and elegant. Kind of like the way Honestiago suggested.

The problem I see is when you have characters of a cosmic scale matched with those who aren't. I don't think it would be too hard to flesh out though.

---------- Post added at 05:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:44 AM ----------


If you wanted to define everything as either "cosmic scale" or "normal scale", I think a simple multiplier would work well. I think they did something similar to this in RIFTS with regards to damage. Then it would depend how far apart you want the cosmic scale to be from the normal scale. x2, x3, x4, higher?

So you could have someone with Cosmic Level Energy Control 2D (fire). Against other being of his scale, his power wouldn't be that impressive (2d6), but against us meer mortals he'd be rolling (2d6)x3 (if you chose x3 as your scale multiplier).

I do think that they should have a higher allocation of Dice to use for Resistances, etc though. Just cause I kind of like letting powers go higher than the norm, as I see cosmic as big and noisy compared to the average super

You could also have Cosmic Level Areas of Effect (1d=City, 3d=continent, 5d=planet) or something similar.

That jives with what I was thinking in my earlier post. BASH does this, and I could see how adapting it for Supers! would work well. I would like to keep it simple effect wise, as it fits with the spirit of the rules set. I don't want to craft lengthy, detailed rules. I want to keep it simple, so that is meshes with the current rules. Your suggestion on Cosmic levels of Area effect is perfect for that.

Dragonfly
02-23-2012, 07:19 AM
I think with something as massive as Cosmic Scale, you can simply modify the Area, much like it's done in BASH. Simple and elegant. Kind of like the way Honestiago suggested.

The problem I see is when you have characters of a cosmic scale matched with those who aren't. I don't think it would be too hard to flesh out though.

---------- Post added at 05:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:44 AM ----------



That jives with what I was thinking in my earlier post. BASH does this, and I could see how adapting it for Supers! would work well. I would like to keep it simple effect wise, as it fits with the spirit of the rules set. I don't want to craft lengthy, detailed rules. I want to keep it simple, so that is meshes with the current rules. Your suggestion on Cosmic levels of Area effect is perfect for that.

I like the scaling for Area suggested by honestiago. I like it quite a bit. My only concern is that you DO have to think about cosmic characters and non-cosmic characters interacting - and what then?

Maybe you make a few cosmic Powers (or Boosts) that you would buy in addition to the regular Powers and Boosts? A player could then buy:

Energy Control (Cosmic) 8d
Boost: Area 5d (+5 targets)
Boost: Mega Area 1d (city)

This would allow characters of both scales to co-exist, and the cosmic characters would have to pay more for the types of things that they can do. I dunno. I guess I'm trying to find ways for this to work without drawing such a sharp line between the two types of characters. I think it's important for the genre.

Best,

Dragonfly

---------- Post added at 07:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:12 AM ----------

Oh. I just reread honestiago's post and I realize we may be talking about the same thing at this point. Honestiago, my first read thought that you were suggesting a simple redefinition of Area just for cosmic level characters. In other words, a regular super buys Area 1d and he affects a single target. A cosmic super buys Area 1d and he affects a city block. I didn't like that, but that's not what you said. Sorry 'bout that.

SO - for whatever it's worth - put me down in support of Cosmic Area (and the scale you recommend) as long as it's a separate add on to the already existing Boosts.

(I should read more slowly and carefully)

BTW, should these Boosts cost 1d, or should cosmic Boosts and Powers cost more (like they do in BASH UE)? I think 1d is fine - as long as GMs use their powers to rein in abuses. A more point balanced approach might recommend that these cosmic boosts cost significantly more than regular boosts.

Best,

Dragonfly

honestiago
02-23-2012, 08:45 PM
Hmmm...man, am I not sure what I suggested.:-)

Thinking about this in earnest, if you consider the benefits of something as simple as Armor Piercing or Tough Defense (a permanent 6), even a persistent bonus of +3 to everything makes the character much tougher to deal with. You take a +10 to any of the PCs powers, that makes it close to 2d for free. So it might be good to think about persistent d6's as an indication of scale. For example, a character one step above the usual super might actually have persistent +6's in many abilities. Those are pretty much just plain ol' boosts, but might give you the scale you want without expanding the heck out of the dice pool.

Example: Sunstar (Defender of Quadrant 7) has a Fortitude of 4d+10 (Cosmic Scale 2 [where each scale is +5). This puts his typical Fort range as 14-34, with an average somewhere around what, 22-24? He's going to shake off a lot of damage with that. Even if he were 3d6+10, you're looking at 13-28, with a typical range of 18-22. This is still pretty good. If you want to stick to the typical dice boosts, it could be listed as: Fort 3d (2d-c [cosmic=+12). Then even a lowly 1d in a resistance with a pair of Cosmic dice is a minimum 12. Not sure how you'd do pricing, though, other than just counting the dice you've applied. You'd end up with a large character cost, but would actually not roll that many dice. When handling Cosmic characters of the same level, you wouldn't really even need to add the Cosmic bonuses, since they'd cancel each other out.

Just a thought, anyway. I think the pricing would be the same, though you'd probably have to mandate a "Cosmic" advantage, or maybe even a series of advantages (Cosmic 1, Cosmic 2, which would soak up two of your Addie slots).