View Full Version : Saga Edition and Beyond

Digital Arcanist
04-10-2007, 03:27 PM
It seems the bulk of role-players only concern themselves with fantasy games. My first foray into RPG's was actually Star Wars in the d6 system. Naturally it holds a special place in my heart.

I've played just about everything out there including some weird stuff like Tales of the Floating Vagabond but fantasy is my favorite genre. That being said I'm probably going to pick up the new Saga Edition and get a group together.

Who else has played Star Wars and am I the only one going to play Saga Edition?

04-25-2007, 05:09 AM
I play, and run, the Star Wars d20 game. I am not sure if I will purchase the Saga Edition or not, as I am weary of it basically becoming d20: Space. Some of the ideas sounds good, but some don't. I dunno.

04-25-2007, 10:48 AM
The first roleplaying game I ever played was D&D, and its been a long time since I've played anything other than Dungeons and Dragons. I tried in the past to get my group interested in branching out, but we always ended up going back to the tried and true. I've never tried Star Wars: D20, but I definitely wouldn't be opposed to giving it a go. I don't think I'd want to run it though. I just don't feel like I have that great of a grasp on the the history of the Star Wars universe.

04-25-2007, 11:14 AM
One of the best things about my SW D20 group is that the GM has less knowledge about the Star Wars universe than most of the players.... The players are all easy-going and just let it slide. Example: There is a 'cannon' story about how X-Wings fell into the hands of the Rebellion. The GM's adventure path has been almost entirely about our characters securing the prototype, and setting up a production line, etc.
The GM is being nice enough to run the game and do most of the leg-work so we let him run the game the way he wants to. If he wants to break cannon stories/planets to make his game interesting we just go for the ride, never even mentioning that it conflicts. There are so many interpretations of cannon by official writers we just say 'it's our GM's interpretation of the Star Wars universe'. I think we'd balk if he did something off the charts like having someone kill Luke Skywalker while he was a baby but we pretty much give him the authority he needs to tell the story he wants to tell.

Digital Arcanist
04-25-2007, 01:57 PM
A lot of SW fans forget that Lucas has flat out said that everything that did not happen in the 6 movies is considered the Expanded Universe and that this universe can be wiped away at his whim. Anything a GM conjures up for his players is just as valid as the stories written in the 50 or 60 novels that have been published since the late 80's.

05-13-2007, 01:22 AM
Star Wars was the first RPG I ever played. I still remember that I had a female twi-lek scoundrel that had purple skin and an affinity for animals... sadly that game didn't last long... my lesson for the century was never play a pen and paper game with a boyfriend EVER again. Too much chaos can happen and fast. As far as story tellers go for Star Wars I at least want them to have seen the movies and try not to warp anything too badly. I have never read the books and only have the movies to go by... Don't hurt me D: !!! I wouldn't mind playing Star Wars again though, great game but I prefer the game to stay away from any truly major characters from the movies. Star wars is the ONLY game I was ever a long ranged fighter in... usually I'm strictly melee.

05-30-2007, 07:58 PM
My group tried 3 campaigns with the Star Wars RPG (2 d20, 1 d6) and as much as we like Star Wars, the RPG was lacking. My main problem with it was that the Jedi/Sith classes basically ruled the game. I could have the greatest Soldier/Scoundrel or whatever- a Jedi would mop the floor with me.
Secondly, the darkside point system- according to the rules IMO, Vader & the Emperor should be pushovers. They'd each have more darkside points than you could shake a stick at.
And space battles- we did our best to play these out, but they'd always take waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to long to run them correctly, and if the classic scenes of the Falcon outmanuvering a Star Destoyers were played in game- poor Han & Chewie- they'd be space toast.

05-31-2007, 08:53 AM
Space battles were the hardest part of the game. To run them correctly, you need a 3D grid and miniature ships to place in the grid so as to show location, angle, etc.

Digital Arcanist
06-01-2007, 09:42 AM
We did have a 3-D grid. Our group being engineers and scientists went to our local Tap Plastics and had them cut some acrylic sheets and lay down a grid on them for us. We assembled them and used MicroMachines from the star wars collection and some other futuristic mini's to conduct our space battles.

Come to think of it, I think I still have the grid. Too bad the new Star Wars Space Battle mini's are insanely expensive. That's WotC for you!!!

06-01-2007, 09:52 AM
Screw WotC. Lego baby! :)

Least that's my idea for the next time I run a SW game. Just use a few lego blocks to show size and shape and direction, and there ya have it.

Digital Arcanist
06-01-2007, 12:33 PM
You could get away with a lego and the card from the mini's for the ship you want to use. They included the PnP stats now with the mini stats. I've found a couple of guys who scan all the cards.

06-01-2007, 02:22 PM
Point being- when you try to run a SWRPG space encounter, its more of a table top mini game than a RPG. It just seemed like that much work, and took that much time.

06-01-2007, 02:49 PM
We tend to like the mini aspect of D&D, Battletech, HeroClix, SW, etc. Just cause we can see what's going on.

As we've gotten old, our imaginations have been weathered away. :)

06-02-2007, 03:58 PM
Using minis negates some of the confusion. Its difficult to get everyone's mind's-eye on the same proverbial page when it comes to combat and positioning.

Ed Zachary
06-02-2007, 06:30 PM
Using minis negates some of the confusion. Its difficult to get everyone's mind's-eye on the same proverbial page when it comes to combat and positioning.

Lego pieces, bottle caps, coins, dice, or peanut shells will work just as well.

06-02-2007, 07:09 PM
I like the idea of my battle cruiser looking like and being represented by a peanut shell.


Inquisitor Tremayne
06-04-2007, 04:51 PM
I have been playing SW since WEG d6 days. Was playing a SWRPG game and will now start playing a SAGA Edition game.

Revised SWRPG ALWAYS felt like D&D but Star Wars to me. Not to mention the space combat was crap! With this latest version the game, thus far, FEELS more like the movies. Fast paced, quick, fun action!

My impression of the Saga Edition so far is, on a grading scale, I would give it an A-. This is without even having played the new game system! Overly optimistic? Probably. But I have read the book in its entirety and so far everything seems to be just great.

More importantly it feels as if they made the rules to FIT Star Wars so that the games are more like Star Wars. Instead of just taking the D&D rule set and throwing a Star Wars shell over it.

Only playtesting will tell.

Speaking of, anyone in the St. Louis area want to play a Saga Edition game?

06-04-2007, 04:57 PM
Mmmm. I remember the West End Games version. My qualm with that system was that it was too easy to slip over to the dark side, but overall I liked playing it.

06-17-2007, 07:20 AM
We've just started playing using the SAGA edition, and thus far we're very happy with it. The level of customization available for character creation is amazing. We've been play testing scenarios/skirmishes testing out the waters to answer some of our questions and agree as a group our interpretations of those rules.

Overall, I'm very VERY happy with the revisions, I especially like the damage threshold idea vs. the old wound point/vitality point system of the first d20 versions.

Within just a few minutes, we were able to go into and out of a combat scenario.

Next session, we're going to get into the real meat & potatoes of a new campaign set in the KOTOR timeline and see just how well the new trained skills work in a situation as well as just getting in some good rpg time.

- Ice

06-25-2007, 08:43 PM
MORE, MORE, MORE.... I wanna hear feedback on this Saga Edition. i ws very unhappy with the last incarnation of SWRPG, and I've heard good things, but no details thus far.

Inquisitor Tremayne
06-26-2007, 11:33 AM
What sort of details are you looking for?

Swing by your local bookstore and preview the book. You'll find they did a very thorough revision/overhaul of the system.

I may have mentioned this before but it is without a doubt THE best Star Wars game system I have ever played and possibly the best game system I've ever played in general!

I have even heard rumor that this may be the new system used for the rumored D&D 4.0.

Anyway, ask questions and I'll answer.

06-26-2007, 01:27 PM
I didn't do much more than glance at it when I saw it the other day, but I will say that the binding and art is very nice.

07-09-2007, 10:31 PM
I have played ADnD since v1 (missed v2, though), and now am firmly entrenched in v3.5, but I do LIKE Star Wars d20 very much. Enough in fact that I decided to run a game (I too have only seen the movies, never read any of the novels). I have books as reference, and I have a modicum of experience with DMing from the 'old' days, so its not going too badly right now. But then, its an online game in phpBB message forums, not a face-to-face game. My players are quite nice to me, letting me learn as we all go (they're willing to put up with me learning so long as they have a place to play!). Anyway, I'll keep checking back here, gleaning what I can from the others. Players are VERY hard to find in Oak Harbor. If anyone wants to get into a face-to-face game, let me know! Or an online game for that matter. Anodyzed aka John www.whidbeygamers.net

Inquisitor Tremayne
07-19-2007, 11:52 AM
So far we have been playing Saga for a month now and I must say that it has exceeded ALL of my expectations!

Streamlined is right!

If you are familiar with D&D 3.0 or 3.5 you know that there is a rule for just about every single thing a player can think of to do. All of that has been cut out of Saga. Which is good. When those situations pop up the GM simply picks a DC and a corresponding skill or attribute and then roll for the result. It keeps the game moving VERY quickly.

If you want specifics, ask away!

08-02-2007, 06:19 PM
Interesting, I don't know of the SAGA edition very well, but I may need to investigate it. I've already spent way too long in this forum today hahaha.
I still play the old school WEG version of star wars, and I like it a lot more than the wizards of the coast version. According to the rules, the GM is supposed to give you a warning "are you sure you want to do that? you might get a darkside point..." whenever you're about to do something questionable as far as turning to the dark side. So I think players with any level of resolve to stay lightside should be able to handle it. The dark side is supposed to be tempting anyway right? I've actually found it to be very hard to convert players that have strong resolve to stay on the lightside, because in the end they're the one that chooses whether or not they'll continue with the action that will give them the dark side point.

I found WEG to be good for space battles in some ways, because the varying scale of ships that the system puts into place makes it harder for big ships to hit small ones, and hard for small ships to damage big ones. There's a lot of customizability for light freighters though, so the actual most effective design was to supe up a light freighter into a customized little gunship, and you'd have more armor, shields, and firepower than any starfighter out there, and for less money too :/ Somehow that seems a bit backwards, but I tried to use good GMing to make things make sense again.

Hehehe, I'm too much a fan of the old WEG system I guess. I've been running a campaign thats been going off and on for about 14 years now. We started at 2 years before the battle of Yavin, and now we're at about 2.5 - 3 years after the battle of endor. We've managed to not conflict with the movies at all, or the book series much, mainly because I keep my players away from the movie's main characters, Luke, and Han Solo and them. Probably the only continuity issue is that the Jedi characters have gotten pretty powerful at this point, and Luke hasn't even started his jedi academy yet. The jedi in my campaign are usually involved in smaller scale struggles that don't concern the entire galaxy, just a few select areas of space, so I've tried to make it fit and make sense as much as possible.

Inquisitor Tremayne
08-03-2007, 01:41 PM
The warning players about gaining a dark side point I've always viewed it as an optional rule. So I make sure to inform my players before we start the campaign that I will not warn them before hand and that I run heroic games. So the dishing out of dark side points is totally at my discretion. Even the slightest thing and I will give them a DSP. But not after due consideration. But yeah, its REALLY easy NOT to go dark in all the incarnations of the SW RPG that I've played, including WEG version.

They finally seemed to have gotten starship combat correct (except for facing) in the Saga version also. They have a nice scaling system and it is very difficult for capital ships to hit smaller ships and forget about smaller ships damaging capital ships unless you have proton torpedoes!

It is a wizards product also, d20. But by FAR better than the last version and the character customization is as great as the WEG version was.

08-05-2007, 02:58 AM
Wow, no warnings? That's harsh. Of course, in the WEG version there's a chance of turning as early as even 2 dark side points...

Actually, I was looking over the SAGA edition, but I wasn't quite sure what the difference between that and the previous wizards of the coast D20 system is. I'm probably just not familier enough with the systems to know the difference.

One thing I was wondering about for that system was with the character classes. It said darth and luke were both level 2 ace pilots as well as other jedi stuff. They're both supposed to be really good pilots, among the best in the galaxy, so what prevents someone from say choosing to get level 4 ace pilot as one of their multi-class levels, or even going purely single class in ace pilot and then contradicting the movies by being a better pilot than both of them with only a total character level of 4 or 5 or so?? I don't know the system too well so I'm probably missing something obvious.

Inquisitor Tremayne
08-05-2007, 10:31 AM
The no warnings, I look at it this way. Its fairly clear what is good and evil in the Star Wars universe. For a player to have their character commit an evil act the player SHOULD be well aware of it thus realize that they are going to get a DSP. So there isn't an argument when they do get one. However, in my games its only the ambiguously evil moments that occur when a character has commited an act that may or may not be evil. In those cases I take into account all factors and usually ponder the decision for a week till the next game.

Anyway, think of a d20 system that doesn't have a rule or a die roll for every single thing a player can do and thats Saga edition.

The Ace Pilot is a prestige class, so you would have to have a character level of 7 before you can take the prestige class. Even then they would still have you beat (if you look at your bonus to pilot as a measure of how good a pilot you are) because you add half your level to all your skill checks now. There are no more skill points that you spend in purchasing ranks in a skill. You are either trained or untrained in the skill. If you are trained you get an automatic +5 to the skill. So; half heroic level + 5 for trained + skill focus (+5) + ability modifier + misc. modifiers = total. If you are untrained in a skill you don't get the +5 nor can you take skill focus in it. So unless you are the same level or higher than vader or luke or whoever you are still going to have a smaller bonus to you roll that someone higher than you. make sense?

08-06-2007, 12:50 AM
Ahh I see, so character level plays a big part in everything. The other thing I was wondering about was part of the combat system, because it seems like you figure damage by rolling the base damage of the weapon and adding whatever bonuses you might have from attributes or feats or whatever.

Since most lightsabers do 2D8, how would Mace Windu ever have been able to decapitate Jango Fett in a single hit? I didn't see stats for Mace, but Yoda's damage was listed as 2D8+16. So that leads me to think that the most he could ever roll for damage on a single hit would be a 32. The stats for Jango Fett weren't listed, but Boba Fett had like, 110 hp, so that means it would take Yoda 4 really good hits to take down Boba Fett? I think to hit roll of a natural 20 is a critical hit that does double damage, and there may be a feat or maneuver that also does double damage (the system seems similar to KOTOR), so I imagine it may be possible to use something like the critical strike maneuver and get lucky with a natural 20 to get quadruple damage, and then be able to kill Fett in a single hit with a lightsaber... but that would be a total luck shot, and would mean that it wasn't that Mace Windu was really really good, he just got lucky.

Am I missing something again? Let me know what you think.
Thanks for the info about SAGA edition btw

Inquisitor Tremayne
08-06-2007, 07:29 AM
This is one of my favorite things about Saga. Damage Threshold! Every character has a damage threshold based off of their fortitude defense. You have 3 defense score, no more saving throws, Reflex Defense (armor class basically), Fortitude defense, and Will defense. You figure your defenses like this: 10 + your heroic (not character) level + ability modifier + class bonus + misc modifier. For Ref and Fort you also add in any armor bonus that may apply but the armor bonus replaces your heroic level in your Ref defense.

Anyway, if you take damage over your Damage Threshold then you move one step down the condition track. There are 5 steps on the condition track, -1, -2, -5, -10, and unconscious. Every time you take damage over your DT you move another step down the condition track until you become unconscious. If you take enough damage to drop you to 0 hit points and the damage is over your DT then you are dead. Period. Although if you have any force points you can immediately spend a force point to stay alive and just be unconscious.

Its really great!

08-06-2007, 02:22 PM
Interesting, so moving down the condition track is about taking large amounts of damage at a time. So say you had a really high damage threshold, and you kept getting hit with damage below that several times, eventually you might be brought down from say 100 hp down to like 5 by the time the fight is over. So eventually you've been really beat up, down to 5 hp, but since you never took damage over your threshold, you never picked up any penalties or moved down the condition track?

And just to double confirm, Mace Windu would never be able to bring Jango down from full HP to dead in a single hit right? Or a master sniper could never bring down a high level character (lots of hp) in a single shot?

Oh, I just thought of something else I wanted to ask about. I remembered as I breifly read over the force power section that it seemed like it said you were limited to using each force power to a certain number of times in a day or certain time period. So like, if I used farseeing, I wouldn't be able to use it again for a while. Or if I had used telekinesis to grap people's blasters out of their holsters before they could draw them, after a few times of doing that I would have to wait before I could use that ability again. Did I read that section right? or is that a rule you wouldn't rigidly enforce? Somehow it seems really limiting to a Jedi's power.

Thanks man,

Inquisitor Tremayne
08-06-2007, 03:37 PM
Yes. It really pays to have a high threshold. However critical hits no longer need to be confirmed, they are instant critical hits that deal double damage. You can also take the feat Triple Crit which triples the amount of crit damage you deal.

I think Windu has this feat. So assuming Jango took some serious damage from just getting his butt trampled its probably that Windu could have triple critted him.

Yes, a trained sniper is not going to be able to take out a high level character in one shot. But should he really be able to? That means all a GM would need to do is have a sniper enemy and take out all the PCs thus gaining a total party kill. However, you are going to be able to one shot mooks all the time.

The bonus to damage comes from adding half your heroic level to the damage plus strength bonus for melee.

For Jedi Force powers you can only use each power once per encounter unless you have taken that power multiple times. To gain Force powers you have to take the Force Training feat which gives you 1 + Wis modifier in force powers to choose from, called a suite. You can select the same force power multiple times in order to use it more times per encounter. At the end of the encounter you automatically gain all of your powers back as a full round action. Also as a reaction you can spend a force point to return one of your spent powers back to your suite.

So as limiting as it is I think it plays out very well. Since most of the time we see Jedi fighting with their sabers more often than their Force Powers, except Yoda and the Emperor. Or the other times we see Jedi using their powers their encounter is over fairly quickly, ie. Qui Gon and Obi Wan vs. battle droids.

Also when you do move down the condition track those penalties affect your attacks, defenses, and skill checks (maybe damage, I can't remember). Since your damage threshold is based on your Fort Defense and if you are at -5 on the condition track, thats a -5 to your DT also. Worse yet is being at -10.

08-07-2007, 01:29 PM
Ahh, thanks for the info Tremayne, thats interesting. If I had enough time and my gaming buddies around, I might give it a try.

You were saying that SAGA edition doesn't force you to roll for every single thing that might happen, so it sounds like there's added flexibility and power of GM fiat. So how would you resolve situations where the players are using their abilities creatively in ways that the system doesn't specifically cover. For example, I've had a player use the telekinesis power on themself, basically allowing his character to fly, or in similar ways slow a fall from a significant heights so the landing is safe etc. You never see anyone "fly" in the movies, and I think there's only one book or two where Luke uses the force to fly, but the player's character definitely has enough skill with telekinesis that his character could easily lift himself and move around at high speeds and perform complex maneuvers. I don't see any logical reason to say he couldn't use telekinesis to fly. The only issue is that allows him really convenient transportation, and we've never seen it in a movie...

Any thoughts as a fellow GM??

Inquisitor Tremayne
08-07-2007, 02:21 PM
I am pretty sure that the surge force power allows you to slow fall. Actually its the Jump skill and or the Acrobatics skill. I can't remember right now. Regardless, you can make some sort of skill check to shorten the distance you fall and thus lessening the damage you take from falling.

As far as using the force to "fly". I think the move object power covers this to a certain extent. I'll have to look it up. Even then it doesn't last very long and there are easier ways to get to high places than flying, ie the surge force power.

If its not covered currently I imagine it will be some time in the future.

Yes, there is lots of GM fiat and/or adjudicating. Which I am totally fine with, I have a feeling another player in my group and future GM has problems with this. It keeps the game moving forward quickly without having to depend on a rule dictating an action. I know GMs and DMs often do this anyway, but now there is no double checking. I am familiar enough with the rules to know whether or not something is covered in the book or not and if not then I wing it. If I am winging it then I just have them roll a d20 apply whatever modifiers and use that as a gauge of success vs. say a DC 15. OR if they have the time I will just allow them to do whatever they want to do. The important thing is keeping track of time.

An example: the PCs were docked in a docking bay and waiting for their captain to return. One PC says he wants to go sell some equipment. Sure no problem. You leave. So they would have to leave the docking bay then find a suitable shop where they can sell some used guns. Probably about an hour of game time. Meanwhile the other PCs are performing routine maintenance on the ship, searching the holonet for info, etc... all that happens in the hour while the other PC is gone. No need to make mechanics checks or use computer checks (unless they are trying to do something specific).

I can't really compare it to anything though except for the RCR version of SW which I ran differently. But I haven't ran a D&D game in sometime but what I do know from the current D&D game I play in is that everything takes forever.

Easy as pie.

08-10-2007, 02:35 PM
It seems the bulk of role-players only concern themselves with fantasy games. My first foray into RPG's was actually Star Wars in the d6 system. Naturally it holds a special place in my heart.

I've played just about everything out there including some weird stuff like Tales of the Floating Vagabond but fantasy is my favorite genre. That being said I'm probably going to pick up the new Saga Edition and get a group together.

Who else has played Star Wars and am I the only one going to play Saga Edition?

I will be playing Saga edition as well.

I love me some Star Wars!

09-03-2008, 12:36 PM
Been a while since I read this thread... A lot of good info put out.

I've been running a Saga Edition game now for some time. My 'group' is taking on the "Dawn of Defiance" modules, very close now to completing the first Adventure.

I had hoped to get into someone elses Dawn of Defiance adventure, where they are farther along than my group. That way I wasn't cheating by having knowledge a player shouldn't have, and I thought it would enhance my own game when my players got to that part. Alas, every DoD game I can find is either behind me or has fallen by the wayside for lack of posting, even some games the GM has disappeared!

But I agree with just about everything I've been reading here. It IS much easier to just give them a DC and have them try something. It moves the game along nicely, rather than having to look up every rule and interpret it for this 'particular' situation. I do know GMs though that are Rules Lawyers and not particularly facile with thinking on their feet, so this might be a harder style of play for them.

Anyway, Game ON!

09-04-2008, 10:58 PM
The first roleplaying game I ever played was D&D, and its been a long time since I've played anything other than Dungeons and Dragons. I tried in the past to get my group interested in branching out, but we always ended up going back to the tried and true. I've never tried Star Wars: D20, but I definitely wouldn't be opposed to giving it a go. I don't think I'd want to run it though. I just don't feel like I have that great of a grasp on the the history of the Star Wars universe.

I'm trying to start a SWSE game, and just 14 miles from you.