PDA

View Full Version : Throwing question



Dorrin
05-01-2011, 02:31 AM
Allright not sure how exactly to word this or if this is even the correct section for this question (assuming it is due to it being a 3.5 game). In part of the campaign I am in our party ran into a group of goblins, as the encounter started one of the other PCs decided to try grappling with one of them (successfully doing so) then deciding that they wanted to throw/shove the goblin across the room and into a wall.

So this is my question is there any ruling or possible options for throwing an enemy across the room if there are where do i find them, and if they hit the wall would it cause any damage to the goblin?

rabkala
05-01-2011, 09:11 AM
In a 3.0 game I played in, we used a 3rd party book. First you would start a grapple and move into the opponents square. On the next round you could make an judo/aikido throw instead of a pin. I do not believe it did damage though. It may have been Beyond Monks, not sure though.

In 3.5 official D&D, there isn't much I can think of for throws. There is the feat Defensive Throw, which is a trip attempt to knock the opponent prone in an adjacent square after they miss you. There is also the monstrous feat Fling Enemy, where you must be at least two size categories larger to throw the opponent and do damage (I'm pretty sure it has some serious prerequisites). Martial Throw would allow a special grapple attempt to throw the enemy into the square you leave, possibly doing normal unarmed strike damage. I guess it could be something like the Knockback feat where you make a special bullrush attempt but don't move with the enemy.

So, not sure if that's very helpful. Off the top of my head I would rule it can not be done as you present it.

Dorrin
05-01-2011, 10:23 AM
Pretty much how I saw it, though the dm decided to go with it running it as a strength check. If it were me I would have said an improvised thrown weapon type of thing with a strength type check. Though the damage from hitting the wall we did similar to falling damage.

rabkala
05-01-2011, 02:55 PM
I did a little searching after posting, because I thought there was an epic feat that allowed something like this. Never found it. The closest was Fling Enemy which has prerequisites of; minimum size huge, minimum strength 23, and Improved Grab feat.

I guess it's not a big deal as long as everybody had fun. ;)

nijineko
05-01-2011, 03:51 PM
you can refer to the hulking hurler prestige class and the improvised heavy weapons table in the complete warrior. a hulking hurler can chuck anything of a light load or less. deconstructing this and making some ad hoc assumptions, a non large and/or non giant character cannot throw up to their light load. probably assign some percentage of light load based on str or something. make it 1/2 or 3/4 light load.

if nothing else chucking a friend or enemy is an improvised weapon attack. damage can be calculated by the aforementioned table based on how much the opponent weighs. i believe the range increment for improvised weapons is 10' per increment.

the feats are handy, but i've noticed that is is really hard to get knockback effects and rules for unusual attacks such as throwing an enemy or ally.

i'm pretty sure that the drunken master has some extra rules for improvised weapons, maybe even throwing... i can't recall where i saw the rule for improvised thrown... maybe from the thrown enhancement for melee weapons? or the throw anything feat? ^^

Dorrin
05-01-2011, 04:53 PM
So pretty much would be situational, up to the dm if it were played out correctly, and if it were to be done more frequently it might cause issues.

nijineko
05-01-2011, 05:02 PM
well, there are no specific rules for it. that is the problem. so we have to extrapolate from other related rules. the feats mentioned, plus the knockback for weapons, and the various improvised rules mentioned are pretty much it in d&d relating to throwing humanoids and similar. for those dm's who want to stick as close to pre-existing rules as possible, these suggestions are meant. otherwise, just make up a simple mechanic covering how much weight a person can throw for how many range increments.

rabkala
05-01-2011, 07:24 PM
The rules as written would not allow this. It takes very selective feats and prestige classes that 99.9% of adventurers could never get, to simulate the effect. It is seriously broken to try to extrapolate those abilities down and just let anyone use it on even a semi-regular basis. It is one thing when a DM makes such a ruling in the heat of the moment, but another to completely disregard the rules when it becomes clear. It is not just playing with fire, but juggling Molotov cocktails while standing over a vat of grain alcohol and pumping gas with your feet! The game is already geared for the players to be awesome. The whole balance of the game is at stake. Believe me, those give away Monty Hall games can be fun for a short span but are completely unfulfilled and finally boring.

This is of course my humble opinion, and in no way a reflection on anybody who may have posted ever or whom may ever post in the future. :D

Dolanar
05-03-2011, 10:42 PM
I believe there is some info within the Pathfinder game that has something to base it on, they have a feat called "Ki Throw" which allows you to throw someone into a threatened square after a successful Trip attempt. You can easily recreate this feat within 3.5 as both games are quite compatible with some minor tuning.

The exact wording of the feat "On a successful unarmed trip attack against a target your size or smaller, you may throw the target pronein any square you threaten rather than its own square. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity, and you cannot throw the creature into a space occupied by other creatures."
Prerequisites: Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike

rabkala
05-03-2011, 11:19 PM
More exotic feats... ah yes, love is deaf as well as blind. The DM is allowing anyone to throw creatures clear across the room (doing falling damage as they fly) with no feats. Sounds like a case of Wienie DMicus. Does the player in question have this feat and the Prerequisites: Improved Trip + Improved Unarmed Strike (even though he ran it as a strength check) ? If not, poor form indeed! Where does the falling damage come from with this given feat? Oh, random fiat... very poor form.

Send him to the boards or the plank.

Dorrin
05-04-2011, 12:09 AM
Yeah I am in a game that currently has a Newbie DM, I was invited by a friend to join in. More so a take what you can get situation, I have little experience as a DM but I am no where near ready to do so myself. As for our current Dm I think it was more so an option that was thrown at him so that he didnt have to go digging through rulebooks yet again.

Sorry I don't mean to rant and thank you everyone for the answers and the help.

nijineko
05-04-2011, 01:25 AM
despite the lack of specific rules, really strong things should be able to pick up and throw stuff, even alive and objecting stuff, if they can manage the trick. when my really light weight caster got smacked by a really big and heavy giant, it is rather stupid that technically my caster doesn't get knocked flying.

the problem is not only that there are poor rules for the event, but that the event wasn't considered in the first place.

besides, most people can chuck someone lighter than themselves about 5' or so. makes more sense to have a rule about it, even if an ad-hoc one.

Dorrin
05-04-2011, 01:32 AM
If it were up to me I would have let it pass for that time and then written up something to cover it, initiating a grapple and adding something in for a throw with similar penalties to an improvised weapon usage. Of course size and strength would have to be taken into consideration, the time that it happened was between a human crusader (fairly decent strength) and a basic goblin.

Dolanar
05-04-2011, 02:28 AM
Well to be fair, the game has never allowed for heavy Wrestling type of action without a specialty set of rules implemented. While not an excuse, I just don't think it caught on too heavily.

Dorrin
05-04-2011, 02:32 AM
I just don't enjoy the fact that when something like this comes up our DM can't think enough on his feet so he ends up looking in his books for the next hour or so while everyones attention span thins to nothing. If you cant find it in ten minutes or so, make a judgement on it, write it down and look it up later. (Starting to become a problem in our current situation.)

Dolanar
05-04-2011, 04:08 AM
yeah, thats the part where WotC needs to add a "Rule" (not a real rule mind you, just something to get the game goin back quicker) "If you are unsure of a certain roll, an easy judgement call is an applicable stat roll, with modifiers" Note: This statement in no way condones ignoring the rules laid out in official material & if a rule can be easily found it's usually the best idea.

Dorrin
05-04-2011, 04:35 AM
That is usually the unwritten rule that I have seen most DM's follow ( or atleast the ones im used to ). It makes things go much easier than sitting there for an hour as the dm looks for something that does not quite exist the way that it is happening in game.

rabkala
05-04-2011, 07:01 PM
I just don't enjoy the fact that when something like this comes up our DM can't think enough on his feet so he ends up looking in his books for the next hour or so while everyones attention span thins to nothing. If you cant find it in ten minutes or so, make a judgement on it, write it down and look it up later. (Starting to become a problem in our current situation.)

Agreed. Even 10 minutes is too much, for most games. Make the call and look it up later. There is a lot of info to digest and remember for a new DM, but he must make the effort to become better. Look up stuff that may come into play and take some time preparing before the game. If you don't know, make a call - even fudge in favor of the pc for now. Making a bad call the first time no big deal, just make sure to understand it better the next time.(Sometimes it is hard for old-timers to remember being a new DM and not knowing everything...:o)

House rules are fine, as long as everybody knows them ahead of time. I have implemented many. The grappling in 3x has been a sticking point for many.

Dolanar
05-05-2011, 02:23 AM
yeah, if I recall 2E had a slightly better method of handling grappling & wrestling in general, though I think in WotC's experience the demand for wrestling/grappling was too small to warrant even a minor add on (which is amazing for the add on kings)

wizarddog
05-06-2011, 02:54 PM
I believe the real issue is whether this becomes a situational thing or a consistent tactic. In my experience, I usually allow some sort of fancy maneuver like this maybe once per encounter or adventure. That keeps it in check and allows for some flexibility in rules and flow. When it becomes something the player wants to do all the time, then you have to start working in additional mechanics.