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thesmith
02-07-2011, 05:56 AM
Hail all Dungeoneers

I have a question for you to settle. In Dragon Magasine 319 monk prestige classes "Shen" or animal styles kung fu are described. I am considering playing the Dragon Shen and was wondering how the ability "Heaven's hand" should be interpreted.

The wording goes:
"Heaven's Hand (Ex): once per day, for one round, the Dragon Shen can resolve his attacks as though both it and its opponent were standing in an Antimagic Field."

Now, does this mean that upon striking the enemy my own magic items will cease to work? this is pretty crucial as my life is currently dependendt on some magical device my GM replaced my heart with (I am not told the powers of the item for roleplaying sake).

Or should it be interpreted as "this attack penetrates as if no magic existed"?

Please adviceoh great wise ones

ashewyntr
02-07-2011, 01:07 PM
It seems to me that this would be interpreted so that for the duration of the round, your attacks will ignore any magic that would affect them, positively or negatively. It doesn't state you are in an Antimagic field, merely that you resolve your attacks that way. So you'd figure your attacks as if you were naked, and give your opponent only the material value of his own gear.

tesral
02-09-2011, 03:53 PM
I'll second that.

thesmith
02-10-2011, 05:26 AM
I am sorry, but what do you mean by second that? You do not agree?

cplmac
02-10-2011, 09:35 AM
Usually on the forums here, when someone seconds, thirds, etc. a previous post, that means that they agree with the other poster and have nothing to add at that time.

tesral
02-10-2011, 11:00 AM
I'll second that as well.

He is correct. I am adding weight to the previous posting without excess verbiage (like this).

DMMike
02-11-2011, 02:12 PM
Not worded very well, was it? If you resolve your attacks as though you weren't affected by magic, you wouldn't be attacking since you'd have no heart. Better ask your DM to rule on that.

rabkala
02-11-2011, 07:07 PM
"Heaven's Hand (Ex): once per day, for one round, the Dragon Shen can resolve his attacks as though both it and its opponent were standing in an Antimagic Field."
Please adviceoh great wise ones

Come on, read the words. Your magic doesn't cease, the attacks are just resolved that way. It does not say, "for one round you are in an antimagic field". There is no question here.

nijineko
02-13-2011, 11:50 PM
the end result of this ability is that an magic affecting your attacks and any magic affecting the opponents defense is as if it was in an amf. only the effects of the attack and defense are affected, nothing else. =D

MINI
02-20-2011, 08:25 PM
It seems to me that this would be interpreted so that for the duration of the round, your attacks will ignore any magic that would affect them, positively or negatively. It doesn't state you are in an Antimagic field, merely that you resolve your attacks that way. So you'd figure your attacks as if you were naked, and give your opponent only the material value of his own gear. I'll third this!

Also since its a homemade item by your Gm they do get the last word on it. Consult your GM if still in doubt. What the GM says goes. If I was the GM and made that item for you I would resolve it as above.

rabkala
02-20-2011, 09:56 PM
I must respectfully say, "No! No! And finally, No!"

This is not a home made thing, it's an ability of the Dragon Shen. This is not an item, but an official ability in an officially written work. The artificial heart is not (should not be) the focus here. If his DM is such a moronic tool that he can not read and interpret such a simplistic thing, lose the twit! That's right! No control freak loser like that should be given the opportunity to DM any longer if he has a problem with it. The DM is not a god, but an impartial referee and facilitator of fun. Furthermore,what kind of jerk would lord such an item over a PC for his grand story. Why should he grovel at the feet of an illiterate troglodyte with no notion of semantics?

I mean no disrespect for those whom care to disagree with the truth.
Of course, this is my educated and experienced opinion. The OP did ask for advice from " great wise ones ", not children whom run to their mommy or GM.

Dolanar
02-21-2011, 12:44 AM
Rab with all due respect, I don't think the GM is holding anything over his head, by his description, HE, the player, was confused by the wording of a PrC as he was researching a possible outcome of his character, for all intents & purposes the GM may not even know of his plan, he saw a possible detrimental outcome to his character & sought the knowledge of others who may have had similar experiences. As far as the main topic, as others have said "Resolve the attack as if neither side had magical bonuses" would be my understanding of the wording.

rabkala
02-22-2011, 08:08 PM
It was more a hypothetical rant, that may have been a bit over zealous. Thanks Dolanar. I agree with, "Resolve the attack as if neither side had magical bonuses". I just have issues with the "Consult your GM" that is so frequently thrown about the forum.

tesral
02-23-2011, 12:47 AM
It is a valid thing to say. I would prefer that players and GMs have an open line of communication about the meta aspects of the game. I do discuss mechanics with my players. I even ask which of several mechanical choices they prefer. Cleric vs Undead and Thief sneak attack were both discussed in this fashion.

Dolanar
02-23-2011, 02:25 AM
I agree, & I understand your point of view, however as we all know in this game, DM decision can go a long way & not all DM's go about the same rule identically, so if you're unsure about a rule, asking your DM how he wants to proceed can eliminate alot of hassle from the players point of view.

DMMike
02-23-2011, 10:56 AM
Come on, read the words. Your magic doesn't cease, the attacks are just resolved that way. It does not say, "for one round you are in an antimagic field". There is no question here.

Well, actually, there IS a question here. I understand your position: your magical items don't cease to function, they just don't affect the outcome of the attack. Which is to say, your +1 dagger, since it would affect the attack, no longer offers a +1. Or, the defender's Robe of Displacement, since it would affect the attack, doesn't offer displacement when resolving the attack.

What if the Dragon Shen had consumed a Potion of Strength? That would affect the attack. What if the Dragon Shen had consumed a Potion of Aid, which gave him enough temporary hit points to remain standing? That would affect the attack, since a standing attacker is more effective than a prone attacker. In an Antimagic Field, those hit points would be void, and the attack would be rendered ineffective. That sounds like an effect on the attack.

Rabkala, I think the wording you're understanding (but not reading) is:

Heaven's Hand (Ex): once per day, for one round, the Dragon Shen can resolve his attacks as though both it and its opponent had no magical bonuses to attack or defense.

Which is significantly different from "standing in an antimagic field."

Dolanar
02-23-2011, 01:13 PM
lets all just agree that the writers sometimes over complicate their wordings for some of the descriptions lol

Dytrrnikl
02-23-2011, 02:00 PM
...The DM is not a god, but an impartial referee and facilitator of fun. Furthermore,what kind of jerk would lord such an item over a PC for his grand story...

...I just have issues with the "Consult your GM" that is so frequently thrown about the forum.

Well, in regard to the first quote, while I do understand your rather emphatic stated POV, one of the statements of my group is that "story, not detail" is integral, almost primary to the core of an enjoyable game. Also, while the DM is not a god, but an impartial referee and facilitator of fun, the DM is expected to make rulings when, albeit the overly crunchy nature of d20 systems it is a rarity, the rules are not clear about how to handle some choice by the players. Something that my group still holds to, regardless of who is DMing, is that no one is allowed to say, "That's not what the rule says". Not because the DM is going to do something EVIL and BIASED to the player, but because it typically ends with the character of said player getting turned into blood pudding by the group itself. I've sat through several sessions over the years, both as player and DM, where more than one player has lost there character this way...of course, anyone who says I want to use my Endurance usually gets a similar fate, but that's a completely different story for another time.

As for the second, I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum. Consulting your GM is something that should occur as a matter of courtesy, if for no other reason. The DM is supposed to be fair and impartial, however he is also supposed to be the most knowledgable about what is going on in the game. How can that happen if he is not consulted. 3E handed a lot of responsibilities to the players, encouraging a transition from DMs word is law/godhoodedness to rewarding players for system mastery, which I see as Rules Lawyering. d20 systems are so much more is codified, ideally to limit GM abuse. What I see is a system that has removed a lot of the flexibility, and to some extent - imagination, from the game that encourages and promotes fun and the ability of the DM to say sure. Under 2nd edition rules, we had a scenario in which a player asked to bring forth a Wall of Fire in front of an advancing horde of undead, but rather than have it made of fire, it would be comprised of matter from the Positive Material Plane. The DM thought it was such a novel idea, that he said yes. Under 3E, with the method in which the various energies are codified, the guy said he would be less inclined to have allowed it. However, all that being said, that's me and my experiences, and by no means indicative of anyone else.

rabkala
02-23-2011, 10:38 PM
Fist off, let me tell you where I'm coming from... In the late 70's and early 80's, I played with some of the most sadistic S.O.B.'s that ever wore the DM mantle. While I have been primarily a DM for over 20 years, those first experiences are hard to shake.

I love it when a player can surprise me, especially on the mechanical front. Though there is a fine line between, suprising and trying to pull a fast one :rant:. I would never, do something EVIL and BIASED to the player who opened my eyes. I would thank them.


@ DMMike : At first I read DMMike's post and thought 'it is so obvious', then I hesitated. I think I see it now, thank you.

@Dolanar : You are a great adition to the boards, very diplomatic.

@ Dytrrnikl : I don't mind a player saying,"That's not what the rule says". (As long as they do it in downtime and are maybe somewhat diplomatic.) I'm not sure I feel your post, though I will try to take a step back and reread this.

I feel incredibly positive about our exchange!

Dolanar
02-24-2011, 01:04 AM
Well, I'm glad you feel that way Rab, I just don't see how devolving into "I'm right you're wrong" contests help anyone seeking info on the boards. (Mind you I am not saying you were, but lets face it, thats what a lot of forums, devolve into at some point or another) I am here to help, & put my experiences to use for others benefit. But I think we have answered the primary question at hand to the best of our ability as a whole.

MINI
02-24-2011, 10:52 PM
Rule 1, the DM is always right

Rule 2, see rule 1.

This isn't about controlling the game but more about player-GM trust. Trust the Gm to make the best decision so that everyone including the DM can have a good time. Thats what RPGs are built on essentially.

Chaucer
03-02-2011, 04:35 PM
Wow, very polite arguing here. I like it.

It probably has already been answered, but it just seems that you just have to resolve the attack without including any bonuses you gain from magic for either you or your opponent. It seems simple enough, sometimes folks just think about it too hard, I suppose.

On the portion about DM's making calls, I do tend to agree that the DM is always right, except when confronted with evidence to the contrary. D&D games take a long time and sometimes you just need to make decisions on the fly. My DM and I have been playing together since we both started playing over ten years ago. If there is a conflict or a question about a rule, we will sit and try and find the answer. If it takes too long (More than 5 or 10 minutes depending on how serious it is) we will make the most logical decision and go with it and figure out the appropriate answer. That way, even if it ends in a less than fun way for one or more of the players, we will know that shit happens and we'll just know better for next time.

rabkala
03-02-2011, 09:39 PM
I think we all share a passion for this game! The best thing about pen and paper games, is that we do this for the betterment of the game, not just for self aggrandizement (like some forums)! Glad to have you on board Chaucer.

nijineko
03-06-2011, 05:23 PM
so, anyone decided which way they were going to play this in their campaign?