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Xandros
01-16-2011, 03:03 PM
I was wondering where the idea of a Ranger having 2-weapon fighting come from? I remember that in the original 3rd edition it was the only specialized fighting system they had. Then they added the choice of ranged combat too. When I think of rangers outside the D&D system though, I don't think of 2 weapon fighting. I think of bows, maybe axes. Was there some literary reference that inspired the idea originally?

wizarddog
01-16-2011, 09:54 PM
D&D Ranger Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranger_(Dungeons_&_Dragons))

In 1e, you could use two weapons if you had a Dexterity of 19 or higher. The ability appeared in 2e version of the ranger with no penatlies. The wiki states:


Creative origins
The ranger is primarily based on the character Aragorn, and the Rangers of the North of J. R. R. Tolkien's Middle-earth mythos, as warriors who use tracking and other wilderness skills to hunt down their enemies.[2] The AD&D second edition handbook mentions several other inspirations from myth and legend, such as Robin Hood, Jack the Giant Killer, the huntresses of Diana, and the Greek hero Orion.
Although it is commonly thought that the ranger character Drizzt Do'Urden may also have influenced the development of the class, particularly with regard to the second edition inclusion of the ability to fight with two weapons, this notion has been rejected by the lead designer of that rule set, David "Zeb" Cook, and the lack of provision for players to be able to emulate Drizzt using the ranger class as it appears in the PHB seems to support his assertion.[3]. More likely, the Drizzt character was influenced by Unearthed Arcana, which introduced the drow as a player character race and contained somewhat ambiguous wording that allowed them to use a secondary weapon not normally permitted in AD&D. Drizzt appeared as a first edition character in the 1988 release FR5 The Savage Frontier. Interestingly, few AD&D computer games based on the second edition rule set included provision for fighting with two weapons, and those that did seem to have not have included the ranger class ability (most notably, Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale, which provided rangers with an extra attack when not using a shield.)
Other notable rangers in the literature of Dungeons & Dragons include Hank from the cartoon series, King Tristan Kendrick from Forgotten Realms, and Ren from Pool of Radiance.

I personally believe the combat styles of Farhad from Frtiz Leiber's Farhad and Grey Mouser (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_Mouser) stories would be a good source.

Xandros
01-16-2011, 10:38 PM
D&D Ranger Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranger_(Dungeons_&_Dragons))

In 1e, you could use two weapons if you had a Dexterity of 19 or higher. The ability appeared in 2e version of the ranger with no penatlies. The wiki states:No offense but that doesn't answer the question. So the ranger in 2e could fight with 2 weapons. Why? What inspired the idea of a ranger fighting with 2 weapons? You could have just as easily said 'well in 3rd edition the ranger is able to gain bonuses to fight with 2 weapons, and that is why the ranger gets bonuses to fight with 2 weapons. Is there a ranger in fiction that fought with 2 weapons that inspired the idea. As I said, I would imagine a ranger (outside of D&D) with a bow or axe.
The Wiki article states that the ranger is primarily inspired by Aragon. I admit, I am not as well versed as I should be. Did he ever fight with 2 weapons? Other than Aragon, they also mention Robin Hood and from that we get to the bow.



I personally believe the combat styles of Farhad from Frtiz Leiber's Farhad and Grey Mouser (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_Mouser) stories would be a good source.
But neither of them were rangers, so why would that be the source?

Slipstream
01-17-2011, 12:56 PM
Not that I like linking to other forums on here, but I found this conversation (http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/olderProducts/pathfinderRPGBeta/design/barbarianFighterRanger/ranger2WeaponAbilityWhy) on exactly the topic you are bringing up.

Here's the short of it:

It's Drizzt. He was created and soon after 2nd edition D&D came out. Since then, you've seen it everywhere... that's why rangers have two weapon fighting to this day. Mechanically, its because of the high dex. Just thought that was interesting. So that's why it always screamed fanboy to me... he's the original hyper-fanboy character :P

Xandros
01-17-2011, 02:37 PM
Thanks for the link. I understand not liking to link to other forums, but since they are discussing the exact same thing I was talking about it makes sense rather than just rehashing the same thing here.

I knew Drizzt had 2 weapon fighting and ranger classes. I always assumed that they just classified him as a ranger to explain his 2 weapon fighting. In other words, I thought that 2 weapon fighting was already a class feature of ranger before Drizzt, and then when he was created, they gave him the ranger ranks to explain how he was able to fight so well with 2 weapons. I wasn't sure which came first, the chicken or the egg.

tesral
01-17-2011, 06:11 PM
There are also real two weapon fighting styles, not that they are attached to anything "ranger" like. The rapier and main gauche in Europe and the style of Miyamoto Musashi in Japan by his own account developed after seeing the Portuguese fight in the above style.

As an old grognad I have to agree that Drizzle is likely the source of the popular idea and its inclusion as the default state for Rangers in 3e. I saw methods for two weapon fighting as far back as AD&D, but again, not part of Ranger lore.

wizarddog
01-18-2011, 01:24 AM
No offense but that doesn't answer the question.

It answers the question on the origin of the Ranger as far as D&D is concerned.


So the ranger in 2e could fight with 2 weapons. Why? What inspired the idea of a ranger fighting with 2 weapons? You could have just as easily said 'well in 3rd edition the ranger is able to gain bonuses to fight with 2 weapons, and that is why the ranger gets bonuses to fight with 2 weapons. Is there a ranger in fiction that fought with 2 weapons that inspired the idea. As I said, I would imagine a ranger (outside of D&D) with a bow or axe.
The Wiki article states that the ranger is primarily inspired by Aragon. I admit, I am not as well versed as I should be. Did he ever fight with 2 weapons? Other than Aragon, they also mention Robin Hood and from that we get to the bow.

Not everything in D&D is brought from legend or literature. The creators of the game were/are writers too. The article notes that Drizzt used 2 weapons and it is debatable if that was because he was a drow or a ranger. The drow, as depicted by Gygax, are his creation, even if "dark elves" have historical/literacy context.

Rangers, as depicted in 1e D&D, have always been based on Tolkien's creation. And by the time of 3rd edition, the purpose of rangers is all but loss to the stealthy light armored fighter.

So the reason for 2 weapon fighting? So they are distinguished from fighters (Warriors) and Rogues (Thieves).

Regarding Farhad and Gray Mouser.


But neither of them were rangers, so why would that be the source?

He fits more like a ranger IMO mechanically but not historically. You have to read the novels. Depends if you think Farhad was a barbarian by class or by culture. In 1e, he certainly was not, in 3e, most likely.

Xandros
01-18-2011, 05:48 PM
It answers the question on the origin of the Ranger as far as D&D is concerned.
And if my question had been "When d&d start giving the ranger 2 weapon fighting bonuses?" that answer would have been spot on. If I were to ask what inspired the rogue to have pick pocket as a skill, it would be easy to point to examples of the fact that thieves steal. To answer that rogues can pick pockets in d&d because rogues can pick pockets in d&d doesn't answer the question asked though. If d&d gave fighters the ability to fly, I would wonder what inspired them to do that. Simply saying that fighters can fly because they could fly in 1st edition, doesn't explain where they came up with the idea. The question was what inspired it. Something does not inspire itself. For example the answer to "where does the idea that fighters can fly come from?" can not be answered with "Fighters can fly, because Fighters can fly". An idea can be inspired by nothing and simply be created out of thin air, but then the answer is "It was inspired by nothing, they just made it up".

---------- Post added at 05:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:44 PM ----------


There are also real two weapon fighting styles, not that they are attached to anything "ranger" like. The rapier and main gauche in Europe and the style of Miyamoto Musashi in Japan by his own account developed after seeing the Portuguese fight in the above style.

As an old grognad I have to agree that Drizzle is likely the source of the popular idea and its inclusion as the default state for Rangers in 3e. I saw methods for two weapon fighting as far back as AD&D, but again, not part of Ranger lore.




Well sure, I never doubted that fighting with 2 weapons existed, only wondered about it's connection to the Ranger. On the other forum, some people pointed out certain savages that fought with 2 weapons. While they are not exactly rangers as most imagine them, they are a type of nature warrior, so could be considered a type of variant ranger. For that reason, I will leave it as an option.

tesral
01-18-2011, 10:08 PM
A bit of dedicated digging with a Dragon Magazine article might trace out the lineage. More work than I care to do. I do believe however it is an in game association. Nothing external.

etoh69
01-25-2011, 04:24 PM
Aragorn of course, as Strider he was/is a dual wielding Ranger.

bloodtide
01-27-2011, 07:47 PM
The two weapon ranger does not have a literary inspiration that I can find. You don't see any famous rangers that always use two weapons, though it occasionally happens.

The two weapon ranger comes from just pure mechanics. In order to make the ranger a 'cool' class so people would play it, they gave that class the two weapon goody.